Michael Garfield Is Smart

(upbeat music)

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music)

Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week is Michael Garfield. Michael hosts a wonderful podcast called Future Fossils, which you can find on minepodnetwork.com. And you may have heard Michael mentioned last week by my guest, Romaine Naser, who is also on minepod network. And Romaine was mentioning him talking about cryptocurrency and Athenian temples in this link. And that's where we start this episode, me and Michael, 'cause I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I interact with Michael as you'll see online on a somewhat regular basis, usually about cryptocurrency, sometimes other things.

But we both have a keen interest in how not just cryptocurrencies or blockchain distributed ledger technologies, but really anything can be used to kind of help kind of broken systems or facilitate kind of evolutions, past systems that maybe have served their purpose or never really were intended to work that well, of which capitalism is one of them, or at least certain aspects of it. So we talk a little bit about that, but really we're talking about this idea of being perceptually overwhelmed and kind of some of the antidotes we can find amongst that, which I know really none of us are immune to, especially if you're listening to a podcast, right?

You're a special type of person who has found this thing that has a bad name that you know about and it's just people talking. And if you like them, they talk about cool stuff where you can find a show or something, like it's kind of not a nerdy thing to do, but you're kind of like embedded in this digital landscape. I'm assuming, I'm generalizing. So this episode really deals with that a lot. And Michael is just, truthfully, he's just super smart. That's why this episode is called Michael Garfield is smart, probably one of the smartest people I know, intellectually really can hold his own with anything.

There are times where I have to carefully pay attention to everything he's saying because there's just so many smart things being said that I can't get overwhelmed at times. So it's really, truthfully though, he does, he always, one of the cool things about Michael, unlike me, as you've noticed, if you listen to the show, he can hold thoughts and revisits them. And you'll hear often in this episode, he does that. And I really appreciate it 'cause often I can go off on tangents as you know. Michael is really good about synthesizing all of these things that may have been spoken about in like a 10, 15, 20 minute period, a lot of different concepts and bringing it back to the original question or point or theory or whatever it is.

And that's, I really appreciate that, which is why I have such a fun time speaking with him. So that's my Michael Garfield advertisement. This episode brought to you by Michael Garfield in future fossils. That's it for this intro. Don't got a whole lot going on. Think I'm gonna do some other stuff. I'm not gonna tell you about it. Thank you to everyone on Patreon who's doing that. Music level, otherwise, cool, love it. I'm not doing as much on Patreon as some other people. I'm not gonna lie to you and say, "Oh, look at this. "I'm doing that. "I'm doing this. "I'm doing this. "You're gonna get this, the special things."

No, it's not really going on. You got some of the music you can listen to from this episode and all the episodes. And you're just really kind of supporting me. That's it. I'm not gonna lie to ya. I'm not gonna say I'm gonna do all this stuff and it's gonna be amazing. I do update it once in a while, but eh, eh, eh, eh, eh. We're good. So that's it for this intro. Next week, have some fun guests coming up, who you haven't heard before, which is very cool for me. Go give some of these MinePod Network.com. I don't know why I keep saying.com today. MinePod Network podcasters, go give them some love on iTunes and other places.

Subscribe, star, do those things while you're at it. Do it for synchronicity. I still like that. Even though I don't know how much it really does for the exposure of the show or really, how much I even care about that. But I do know what makes me feel good when I see people give it a high reading or when they say something nice, 'cause who doesn't like that, right? It was my birthday the other day and I was like, you know what? Who are people who don't like their birthdays? I know there's reasons one might be upset about aging, but I love when people are like, happy birthday. I'm like, thank you.

It is a happy birthday, I'm having a great day. So that's it for the end of the show. I will see you on the other side of this and lots of love and without further ado, here is my girlfriend. (upbeat music)

Thanks for coming on, man. It's been a while since we've gotten to chat in person, I guess, we're not in person, but at least--

We've never even met in person.

I know, I know. But you know what? I've kind of like, it used to be weird when I would meet people I met on the internet in person and now it's just like, it feels like I already met them. Most of the time, like when I met Michael and Corey in LA, I was like, I basically feel like I know you guys already. It's one of those weird things. But yeah, we haven't chat in a while outside of Facebook where, you know, we do the cryptocurrency things. However, the reason that my memory was shot that I absolutely need to have you on again is I had Romine Naser on and he specifically brought you up as one of his favorite podcasters on MindPod Network.

I think just in general, I even think it was on MindPod Network. And he was like, yeah, like he's just like a really good thinker and he brought up, I think it was a theory of yours or something you were theorizing on related to cryptocurrency and I want to say it was Apollo. Do I have that right?

Hmm, oh yeah, you know, this must, I'm trying to remember whose podcast this was on. We were talking about, it was the Temple of Athena.

That's what it was, yes, yes, yes.

Right, yeah, 'cause I was listening to the BBC's podcast mini-series, Living with the Gods and which is so good, it's so good. And they were talking about how banks basically started at the Temple of Athena, at least in the West because people would bring devotional offerings, like gold to the temple. But then when the city of Athens was in economic hardship, they would borrow back from the goddess. And so it became this thing that they're like, okay, you can take your gold back from Athena until you like, you know, pay off your business debts, but then you got to give it right back, you know, 'cause it's the goddess's gold, you know?

So funny.

So, you know, they didn't have debt bearing interest as like a financial instrument at the time.

No fractional reserves or anything, yeah.

Right, but where that's, but that's sort of where the Western banking story starts in a way. And I just found that really interesting 'cause so many people talk about, you know, it's like that high school thing, you're like, oh, well, you know, money could be your God, you know? Like at the moment that you realize, you know, growing up that you're like, oh my God, you could worship anything, you know? And it's like, well, there it is, it's like, the same as like going back to alchemy and seeing that, you know, the way that science and religion or like science and esoteric spirituality used to be fused in that practice.

And it's kind of a similar thing, looking back at ancient Greece. And I love doing that because our world, it makes our world easier to map, you know? It makes it easier to see how everything is related if you trace the branches back down to the roots.

Yeah, well, I like that too because I, there's just so much going on culturally right now, you know, whether it's a mass level extinction event that we're living through a transitional thing, leading up to the singularity, whatever, pick your poison of which paradigm you wanna say we're living in. I've been listening, the two dominant themes, as you know, over the past year for me, have been psychedelics and cryptocurrency. And seeing how these things merge. Like, so I'm listening to Michael Pollan's book, which, how to change your mind. Is that what it's called?

Yeah, I haven't read it, but--

Yeah, I'm listening on audio book. It's, you know, at first I was actually somewhat disparaging of him because he just came from this approach where it was like, you know, he's like this, yeah, I'm a normal guy, I'm 60 something years old. I'm gonna see what this is about, I'm an atheist. And then it's like, oh God, it's, but he actually, you know, he goes in, he does five MEODMT and all these things. And it got me thinking about how so many of our kind of like cultural institutions didn't have the opportunity to kind of thrive with these mystery schools, kind of psychedelic, alternative esoteric teachings.

And now it seems like this resurgence of psychedelics is bringing on almost, not even just from a top down level, but from like in every middle out, if you will, right? From Silicon Valley, it seems like this stuff is just proliferating at such a rapid rate. And we're seeing such an overturn and overhaul of all of our systems so quickly. I mean, I would love your take on kind of what, what, I know we've spoken about this before, but what do you think is kind of underpinning this massive level of transformation, which to me, you know, and I've been looking back in history more and more recently, as you pointed out, going back to the roots, there's always been change, there's always been turnover, there's always been things, however, it is clearly hitting a clip that we haven't seen or at least in recorded history we haven't seen.

So what do you think is fueling this?

Okay, so there's, let's talk about the history of sex or the origin, the evolutionary origins of sex, right? Because I read this paper in my senior year studying animal communication that blew my mind because it was a, and I've talked about this elsewhere, but I'm gonna assume that anyone listening to your show has never heard me rap about this before.

Okay.

And it was Martin Noak who is then at Princeton and is now at Harvard. He founded the Department of Mathematical Biology at Harvard, I believe. He was working with, I wanna say Natalia Comarova at Princeton and they were working on a paper about the origins of language and they basically said that syntax emerges out of more primitive animal communications. Like, you know, where you've got a kind of call, like your cat, you know, your cat has like 30 different sounds.

Right, right. - Supposedly. And every one of those sounds has a specific meaning and they're all baked into the cat. It's like firmware, right?

Right, right.

And whereas human language, there's, there's some linguistic dispute over whether or not there's a universal grammar underlying all of human language. Like a basic human firmware for language. But then there's, but really what we learn is software.

Right, language is. - Right, right, right, right.

Yeah, and so there's this notion that the gap between those two is when you reach a complexity of environment through, you know, complex social groupings, like early humans, where the number of things that we're trying to communicate to one another are so many that the words that we've been adding together don't do it anymore.

Right.

That it's like, it actually requires more memory to remember a new word for every new experience that we're having than it is to create, to basically use a bunch of different parts of speech and more limited words that describe more specific things and then to combine them. And then that basic, that what we're seeing there is the power of combinatorial math over like merely additive math. So it's like two plus two plus two equals six, two times two times two equals eight. And so you get that in terms of evolution as a process that's sort of searching a possibility space for solutions to a functional question.

Right, like you're looking for how do I do this with communication? And that means communication at every level. That's between cells, between organ systems, between people or bees or whatever. You that we're looking at these networks where the network itself makes the whole system more complex because it is itself acting within this system that it's attempting to describe. So you drop two people into an empty matrix loading room. And suddenly there's actually three things going on there. There's two people and their conversation. And then that automatically makes the whole situation more complex.

So at any rate, the same thing I realized that was going on in human language was going on at all of these different other locations in the evolutionary process and that includes sexuality. So for most of the human or like most of the history of life on earth, we didn't have sex really. Like we, bacteria would exchange little bits of their DNA, which worked fairly well. But there wasn't this opportunity for two things to come together and then just remix each other into the next generation. And that process creates, is sort of like syntax. It's like you're no longer just adding one organism, kind of like sort of blindly mutating its clones into a future.

But suddenly you're creating all of these possible, every generation is like a thousand different strategies from the same two parents, you know? At least at that like basic animal level where they're like a dandelion is producing thousands of offspring at a time.

Right, right, right, right. And, or you know, I should say organism. And so anyway, to answer your question more directly, it's that what has happened is that over the course of the history of life, as more and more complex organisms have evolved, more and more complex communications systems between them to establish more and more complex ecosystems that then require more and more diversity and more and more intelligent agents within them in order to navigate them successfully, that it's like this whole ratcheting thing where more complex metabolisms and more complex societies and all of this stuff spills out of it.

And it's on this curve now where it's like, it went, you know, the first few billion years was just, you know, relatively bland.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we figure out photosynthesis fairly early actually, but then it takes a few billion years for photosynthesis to completely pollute the atmosphere. And then as a response to that, we create, you know, metabolisms that use oxygen. So suddenly there's a syntax of different metabolisms. There's like the plant respiring oxygen and the animal respiring CO2. And so that creates a sort of like bio syntax. And then that opens up this whole other thing and then plants and animals move on to the land together and then flowers evolve. And that creates a whole pollinator symbiosis syntax.

And then, you know, more and more complex ecosystems that lead to, you know, complex social animals like primates and then we get language out of that. And then suddenly the sexual recombination dynamic is happening between minds. It's not just happening between organisms. So it's not taking, you know, the 15 years or whatever it would have taken, you know, an early person to become a parent. You know, I think about like that grandparent, 30. Like that's what was most of history.

Yeah, by the vast majority of it, for sure, for sure.

Yeah, but that's, I guess that's, you know, that's a tangent. But yeah, so suddenly we move to a point where the responses, the adaptive evolutionary response can happen within a generation. It's happening faster than we can breed. And so that's why, you know, people are constantly freaking out when things are changing this fast. People are constantly freaking out about how much faster our culture changes than our biology. Now that's about to change again, because we're starting to crack the code and starting to learn how to engineer biology at the molecular level. And so I kind of think that this is the century where that thing closes and basically biology becomes, in like a conscious self-reflexive way, a language in its own right, you know?

Like we realize that when we go from like the genome as a kind of language to it really being operated on by artists and engineers in that sense. And then suddenly, you know, it's like, you know, I am the word, like what is it? Like I am the word and the word is the flesh, you know? And like we're really approaching this point where the biological process of speciation and generation is getting folded into language because language is evolving so much faster. And so the point where like within, I think within our lifetime where like, you know, it's what we're gonna see is, people are modifying their own DNA and the DNA of other organisms in their environment, like you're getting upgrades on your phone.

Right.

You know, and like you'll be like, it'll be like fashion, where you'll be like, oh, today's everyone's gonna have purple skin for this party, yeah. 'Cause that's like, oh, you know, you'll come to work the next day and you'll still have purple skin and they'll be like, it'll be like coming to work with a hangover kind of, you're like, but yeah, so I mean, that's what I see happening.

So that's an amazing answer. So the complexity to boil it down is these complex systems interface with each other over time, thereby making more and more complex systems. And then our precarious positions as human beings with self-reflection and consciousness, where we can look at things, we just don't have the necessary tools to kind of conceive or process the rate of technological improvement, you know, advancements, cultural, because that's what's so weird to me. It's like, I still feel like there's, we're operating, like it's like we got, I'm trying to think of the right computer analogy here.

It's like we are running an old operating system on a brand new computer, or some of us are starting to get new computers culturally and we're not totally like ready to change over to the one that makes sense for the new hardware. And a lot of people are having just like ridiculously crazy reactions to this. And this is something that I felt kind of psychically 10 or 15 years ago. It just felt like, I'm not saying I was psychic and I predicted all these things, it's just that it felt like there was this big thing coming. It had clearly, I had groked in the early ages, early age of the internet, you know, the mid 90s, that this was going to change everything so fucking quickly that people wouldn't have time to adapt, low and behold, it happened even faster than I think I could have imagined.

And yet we're still here kind of dealing with this. And then the weird thing is, is we know that for the most part, our world doesn't run based on the most elegant solutions to complex problems. But in fact, we know, I mean, right, it's laughable. We have runs just the opposite. We have archaic kind of draconian systems and controllers for most of the way things work and operate in the world that resist kind of elegant solutions and things. And it's just so fucking crazy right now for so many reasons. And like, this is why you know this, why I got so heavily into cryptocurrency is I view this as a real opportunity to kind of disrupt the current socioeconomic paradigm in a way that doesn't kind of like do it in an anarchic kind of like insane.

Like, oh, the world is going to shit. Like we just did a had a coup and overthrew the government, but it subtly kind of decentralizes and places the power theoretically into individuals and groups of people's hands, which is why I'm so excited about it, which is why I'm thrilled to talk to you about this because most of the people who listen to this podcast, I don't know most, there's a fair number who get very annoyed when I speak about cryptocurrency because the cultural meme, you know, I get it. The cultural meme is that this is a speculative, money-making environment. And of course, many of us are doing that and that's what a lot of our investments are at the end of the day.

However, the way that the kind of tenants behind many valid cryptocurrency projects just totally open up possibilities that we're here to for it impossible. And that's why you're bringing up, I think it's hilarious, these deposits that they'd make to the goddess and that they've loaned it back out in kind of this like reverse lending. Oh, we got to give it back. I mean, it sounds so funny 'cause we're thinking about but that's basically what we do and we've been doing for decades, hundreds of years. So it's fascinating to me that we have this kind of opportunity. What, 'cause I know you've been talking about a lot on your podcast too, what areas do you think cryptocurrency and some will say blockchain technology to some extent opens up for us to kind of move into maybe more elegant solutions to some of these complex things that are happening?

What are some that you look at and you go, this is quite interesting. This is something that I like.

Yeah, so to your listeners who roll their eyes at the mention of cryptocurrency, I think it's wise actually to take it a step to peel it a step back because right, like the talking about cryptocurrency for a lot of people is it's like, I feel like it's like admitting that I like Dave Matthews.

Yeah, yeah, it's so true, I feel like a bro. I know, it's so funny.

You're like, oh, that immediately puts you in the like, you know, flipped cap like frat bro.

Yeah, yeah.

And to be fair, you know, when something, like there is this tenor or this hubbub that happens anytime and it's around a new technology that happened around radio, it happened around television, anytime something like this happens, there's this wave of on the one hand, like a liberating social sort of utopian rhetoric that, oh, you know, this is what's finally going to allow people to wrestle the power back from, you know, the wealthiest elite psychos. And then on the other hand, there's all these people that it's like a gold rush and they see they're like, oh my God, like I could be the early adopter on this platform.

Tron, you know.

Right, right, right.

Tron to smooth. And so, yeah, so at any rate, I want people listening to put that stuff aside and the cultural whack nonsense around it on both ends of it.

Both ends, exactly.

You know, because I entered a, for the last few months, I just stopped teaching two webinars a week on the philosophy of blockchain for CryptoCurve.com.

Cool.

And it was a really good run. And we talked about what you're, you know, specifically you're addressing this like KG but optimistic look at what could improve and where these technologies also could be like appropriated and like FNI is like that kind of stuff. And I think the more interesting thing about blockchain, part of it is its ability for us to empower people to measure value in their own way rather than assuming the value that is pushed upon them by the Federal Reserve or whatever. You know, and this is very similar, and I've talked about this elsewhere. This is very similar to the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church.

You know, and the way that the Protestant Reformation put the value back in the people's own decision making.

Rather than some foreign, yes.

You lose something really cool with that. You lose the cathedrals because like Protestantism really was like, we don't need these fancy palaces to the priest class and the elite kind of thing, but you lost the coordination, the coordinated effort of all of these people working towards the same intergenerational cause. And so one of the things that I'm really curious about with blockchain is it seems on one hand to be, and I talked about this with Arthur Brock of Holochain because his project is very different and it's designed, been a lot of the other stuff out there. It's not worth getting into here, but-

They just got added to Binance.

Yeah, and I'm very happy for them because it's a project really, it's not a blockchain project specifically. It's their cryptographic network is like fractal, it's based on living systems. And so it's a very different construction. It's, they're not looking at a network-wide consensus, which I think is a kind of the insistence on universal consensus in blockchain technology has benefits and it has drawbacks. And one of the drawbacks is that that's not how we build knowledge at all. We build knowledge from the ground up, not from the top down. We build knowledge from like agreeing with one another, like, oh, I saw this, did you see this?

Yes, well, we should ask a stranger, like that kind of third party validation and an empirical outsourcing of confirmation, the peer review process, that's how Holochain works. And that's why I'm excited that they're seeing some success. But at any rate, I think the point is that what you're asking about is that in the ways that we're exploring these different design architectures for these different networks and how those different architectures lead to different ways of coming to agreement on things, different ways of securing our information and disclosing it at our, by choice rather than by force.

I don't think people really understand what a huge deal this is, right?

It's, yeah.

We're talking about, well, I mean, first of all, I'm sure you've talked about this on your show before, but like we're talking about not needing, like the very basic thing of like not needing a notary.

Right, to validate that something, like people never think about that until you need one and you're like, what the fuck is this? Who is this person who has to stamp my thing at a bank or somewhere, some other institution for this specific thing? And they're needed in like weird cultural, like I remember a marriage, you know, all these very bank accounts, it's just weird shit. Yeah, yeah.

So like the marriage is a really good one, right? Because marriage used to be a thing that happened between husband and wife. It was observed by the community. It was honored by your family. It was basically for, it's like a performance for your village, you know, to honor the joining of families. And then at some point in the middle ages, I'm not sure exactly when the church decided they wanted to get in between people. You know, because the church and the state were fused at the time, and so they wanted to know who all was sleeping with whom, right? So the best way to do that is to make it so you can't sleep with anybody that you're not married to and there has to be a,

Yeah. - And there has to be a priest there to officiate it, otherwise it's not legit, you know? So basically they created this like a marital panopticon, you know, where it's like everybody, you know, and of course they want to encourage that, you know, you get benefits for the tax benefit.

Tax break, oh yeah, you're doing this.

You know, because thank you, because you've now registered in our like database of who is who and who. So, and, you know, by knowing that, of course you maintain a lock on everything because obviously if you want to twist somebody, what do you do? You know, you push on their family, right? And if you don't know who somebody's family is, you have no power over them.

I see this, I mean, I see this all the time on the internet. It's the people who are terrified of getting docked because they have some level of anonymity that allows them to kind of operate freely. It's crazy, it's so true. And I mean, it seems whenever you go back to these institutions, it often boils down to exactly what you just described. How do we maintain power? How do we maintain control? What's something that we can present as a potential solution, but is actually kind of surreptitiously another way to maintain, you know, gathering information or other kind of subversive things. And it's like that to me, like as you're saying, is like if we have something that's immutable, we have something that whether, regardless of how consensus is arrived at and, you know, parsing it, if we can see that that alone, that alone is an incredibly valuable tool for society because most of our problems, like, you know, the thing that just struck me as one of the craziest things I've seen recently amongst a lot of crazy political things is the new ruling that, you know, donations don't have to be disclosed by corporations or individuals to political campaigns anymore.

So we've just increased like by a millionfold dark money flooding into our, at least we kind of knew the Koch brothers' razzles. So it's just, it's crazy to me that this thread has persisted. I don't know what to say since the dawn of humanity, but since systems kind of emerged.

That ain't going away either.

No, of course not!

I mean, blockchain isn't gonna fix this.

Of course not.

But, you know, the number one thing that excites me about all of this, I think, I mean, and really, maybe I should have just answered your question this way, going into the like nonsense, but I look at, there's a, there was a great article that came out in April on New Yorker magazine in Select All, called The Internet Apologizes, where you might find it an apology for the internet from the people who built it.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, so if you haven't read that article, do yourself a favor and read it. It's a, it's a, an abridgement of 12 interviews that they did with people like Jaren Lanier and Tristan Harris, people that were instrumental in the imagination and execution of the internet, a specifically web 2.0. The internet, as most people interact with it today, and the thing that they said, every one of these people said was we really made a mistake thinking in our sort of techno-optimistic utopian youth that we could just make the internet free for everybody by subsidizing it with an ad model. And we didn't realize that the ad model would follow these rules that we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation, where it's like a self-optimizing metabolism that's gonna wanna, that's going to veer exponentially faster and faster towards being this like total surveillance and real-time behavioral modification system.

Right, which it is.

Which is, that's what the whole Russian election, Cambridge Analytica conversation is about, is about the fact that Facebook never intended to become the substrate of a giant mind control network for an invisible third party.

Right, like there, you know, it's like one thing if they're-- - They're doing it, yeah.

Like that's fine if we're gonna tweak your news feed to see if it makes you sad.

Right. - You know?

Right. - But it's another thing, if somebody else is tweaking your news feed to make you hate Hillary Clinton, you know? And that's not okay, because we didn't realize it was, you know, not in my backyard. But I didn't agree, you know, this is the issue, right? This is the main issue being, and Jaren Lanier has said this also elsewhere, that because of this, we set everything up so that people didn't have any ownership of their own data. They weren't selling their own data to advertisers. And therefore, everything that everyone has done on the internet for the last 14 years has been slavery, has, I mean, that's not an overstatement.

Like what we're talking about is a form of like, it's widely discussed as digital sharecropping.

Yeah.

It's not even like indentured servitude because there's no like clear end in sight. Like I think about Facebook came out in 2004, I graduated college in 2005. I've been with my partner for 14 years. Like we met right before both of us established Facebook accounts. In that time, we can talk about the 2008 economic recession, we can talk about Trump gutting the economy or whatever, you know, kleptocracy, all this stuff, but there's another piece of this which is that since 1980, the 90% of the new wealth that has been generated by the internet has gone to the top 10%, 90% of it. And that's because these systems don't recognize the participation, the cultural creation as a financially incentivized activity.

It's economically invisible to the people who are actually doing the work. And that's the thing I see blockchain changing. And let me give you a really specific example. I'm not shilling for this company.

It's okay.

But I do like what they're doing and I do have an account at June, C-H-O-O-N. That's the O, which is a music streaming platform for independent musicians who own 100% of the copyright to their own music. And you can join as a musician or you can join as a listener. Either way, you get to curate playlists and the artists who upload tracks assign a percentage of the streaming royalties which are paid in that, you know, the true note, like their own cryptocurrency. You're paid in notes for having your music listened to but you can also assign, I assign 20% to the playlist curators. So if somebody listens to my song on their playlist, they get 20%.

So suddenly, and this is the thing, is that the internet, again, with the recombination dynamics of evolution, the internet is all about curation. So I see June as a sort of proof of principle or a test case in how we can start thinking about paying the people who are not necessarily generating content online but are connecting people to content that they will enjoy or benefit from in some way. You know, Steamit does a similar thing. Again, I've got a profile on Steamit because every time I find one of these networks that pays for--

For consuming and curating as well, yes, yes.

Yes, that pays people to organize information for other people. And really, that's what you're doing as a podcaster.

Of course.

You're, you've created a way to curate other people's minds for your listeners.

It's a, it's a--

Hopefully you're getting paid for that, you know, so--

And this is a really important thing too because I think when we as artists or content creators, I'm not a fan of that term, but people who create stuff and put it out into the world, sometimes we can have the idea or I have had the notion that, oh, well, everyone could do this. But the truth is, is maybe in this lifetime, someone doesn't wanna be an artist. They don't wanna create in the same ways that you do or I do or someone else does that it's gonna lead to a profitable living based on their creativity.

It's, you're so true that like, that's what I think a lot of people don't fully grok is that when we go on Facebook, we're making them money. That is there, if we could see that equation, if we could see how much money every time we clicked on something or liked a page or interacted with this, led directly to not just the advertisers and companies that are using the platform, but Facebook, we would think about this shit a lot differently and we would realize, you know what? Like, yeah, you're right. We're not even indentured servants. Like we're not, there's no end. This isn't like, oh, we'll work off our debt and then we'll be free and we'll get the actual free internet.

It's like, no, this is just gonna go on a perpetuity. Right, it's ridiculous.

Although, maybe the last 14 years have been kind of like us slowly coming to the revelation.

Yes.

That we need this, and therefore it is, it is sort of a 14 and 50-inch internship.

It's so hard though, because then we're adding in what you said, kind of this psychic digital warfare that wasn't intended, at least not outside of Facebook or another social media company platform, using it for their own benefit, but it wasn't intended to be used as a platform to manipulate behavior by outside forces. But lo and behold, you know, I don't view the internet as that distinct or different from our everyday life. It's just a reflection, right? And I think that's one of the reasons, you know, I had a relatively successful career as a digital marketer, is I just honed in on the principle that like, treat these people like you would if they were in front of your face.

Like, don't treat them as like slave, you know, cows to be slaughtered or something to sell people to or something, just be like, if you saw someone at a party and you just ran up to them and be like, "Hey, let me tell you about all my things. "Let me tell you about all my things." They'd be like, "Get the fuck away from me." But if you're like, listen to what they said, find out what they're interested in, find a common point of reference where you can speak about something like that's, it's just weird to me that this gets bastardized and kind of warped so quickly, almost like it's like the lowest common denominator of finding how these things will work and the systems kind of self-organized.

Whereas, I mean, what do you think a potential solution is for that? Like, I recognize every time I go on Facebook, I put, I mean, I'm sure, I don't know if you've noticed, but I basically don't post anymore. I really, I don't, I was, and this is after building up big pages for a lot of other people and myself over for five, six, seven years. I just came to the conclusion, I'm like, I don't really care. Like, it's like, you know what? Organically, if people find me, what's led to success for me is when those people find me. Not if I'm blasting out a million times into this. And I'm hitting people.

I have the metrics to prove that it's working. But to me, I'm just like, you know what? I don't, this isn't something I'm interested in to increase people's engagement on a platform that I know is doing them a fundamental disservice by using the platform. And it's hard to argue that it's not, right? Our attention is being mined, right? I mean, for lack of a better turn, they're mining our attention. They're saying, dude, please use it for this to make us money. So what do you think kind of, what are some practical things we could do as individuals to kind of not like get off the grid, fuck the internet, I'm gonna go, you know, be a farmer forever, but interact with these systems in a mindful and conscious way that also kind of brings us the benefits of some of these things, not to be totally negative about it.

I love so I wouldn't go on it if it didn't provide, you know, something besides just a dopamine rush. So what are some of the things we can do and interact with these systems in a kind of more mindful way? Because I see how you use them. The reason I'm asking you this is not just 'cause you're on the podcast and we're talking right now. I see what you put out in the world. I've seen what you put out in the world for years now and it's thoughtful, you know, it's not dribble. It's not, hey, come look at this mindless thing. It's like this is a reflection of what I care about and I'm putting out on the way for people and that's why Romine Naser says you're one of his favorite podcasters because you're doing your thing.

Like you're putting out, you found a way to kind of engage in an interesting way that resonates with people without kind of going balls to the wall, markity, you know what I mean? You know what I'm getting at.

That said, that said, I do feel like I have learned a lot over the last few years that I have sort of resisted the rules of this weird universe.

Yeah.

You know? And like there was a long time there where I, you know, I was putting out, like every video I was putting out was like an hour long, you know? And it took me at least five years to accept and I'm really only now at the beginning of accepting that there are like different time, layers, right?

Yes.

You go out into the nature, nature is long and slow, right? You go out into the woods and you can just like breathe out and open and into that moment. But then you go onto Facebook and it's fast, you know, Twitter, social media, this stuff is fast. And you don't have an hour to have a conversation. You know, like a Taoist wizard, Mantak Chia says, if you want to establish a conversation with a tree, like if you want to get to know a tree, that it takes at least nine breaths to sit there and exchange energy with the tree. Because the trees, the tree's intelligence system is so much slower that we're just like blips, you know, that we're just like speeding past them.

And if we don't sit there for nine breaths with the tree, they don't even notice us. And I think that, you know, there's something like that.

What you're saying is absolutely true. I noticed it in my garden. I can like, after I'm there for five, 10 minutes, I actually start to be able to like tune into the plants. When I first get there, I'm just watering these things and I don't even think they'd, it's so interesting you say that.

Yeah, so I had an experience trading cryptocurrency where I just got my ass handed to me at the spring where, you know, like I, you get into this thing and you're watching these, you're in the trading window and you're watching you streaming red and green numbers. And I swear to God, the thing it reminded me of most was, and I'll give two examples 'cause they're kind of the same. If anybody's read Dan Simmons books, the Hyperion Cantos, Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion and Dimeon and Rise of and Dimeon, it's Hugo and Nebula Award-winning science fiction written in the '80s and '90s, truly, truly extraordinary, literature disguised as science fiction, masterful works, but they talk about the techno core, which is like when the post-singularity machines sort of split off, like a form of their own sort of community, and it's like the machine city or whatever.

And when people try to go into the techno core, it's like this insane, like DMT trip type situation, you know, where everything is evolving and moving so fast. To go back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, like I'm always talking about Doug Rushkoff's book, Present Shock, because he talks about the New York Stock Exchange and how it has warped the space time of Manhattan, so real estate prices, and actually like buildings are like reinforced to support, internally, to support these massive server farms, and the rent is a function of how far they are from the floor of the Stock Exchange, 'cause it's a fiber optic cable that can get these like, these tiny gains of like hundreds of a second and out-compete people that are stationed two blocks further away.

Wow.

Like that's the kind of intense evolutionary and tropic force that we can feel moving from the garden to Facebook. And then from Facebook to like, Binance Trading Crypto is even, it's the same. It's like the same, it's like another order of magnitude where you're putting your hand in a fucking blender.

It's insane.

You know?

It's insane, yeah.

So my, you know, what I learned from this experience of like trying to squeeze myself, 'cause I think about this with like, I think about Robin Hanson, a lot of the economists who wrote this book about emulated human brains and what happens when we are able to put people in, like run people in computers and how there will be different speeds of people based on the, like how wealthy, the people owning the computer systems running those people are, you know?

It's so interesting.

And so there will be people living in their virtual world that are living like a year for like our day.

You know? - Don't we do that now? Wouldn't you say that this reality is essentially that maybe not in a exact explicit way, but this is the difference between someone who has the means to pursue ideas, you know, concepts, professions, and someone who's maybe born into a situation where it's like, unless they bust their ass and are the top 1/100th of a percent person, they're not gonna have those opportunities. It feels like it's again, just another reflection of kind of our actual world. That's so interesting though, because that makes sense. People are talking about, you know, net neutrality and internet fast lanes, well, just extended to minds on computers.

Of course, it would be the same thing.

Totally. - And this is scary because-- - Yes, yes.

I'm editing an episode of my show with the Tea Fairy, who's this really-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's an amazing person and she thinks a lot about, you know, the future post-human world. And she said she wrote this book, or she wrote a story in which, she's like, if you're at the leading edge and you lose, if you like, take a misstep where you pause to look at a flower or something, when you're at the, you know, you're, you're, like, she talks about like an inception, you know, like every step they go down in the dream, it's like six hours for every hour or whatever.

Right, right.

And so if you go back out of that, for even a second, you've lost your tip forever, you know, because it's exponentially faster ahead of you now. And I worry, you know, I asked her about this. I was like, don't you, aren't you concerned that this is gonna like lead to the stratification of the human species into like, you know, gods, and then like all the other poor fucks that didn't make it, you know, like make it on the train? Anyway, this is a tangent, but it's something that like plagues me constantly is, and her answer was like, "Yeah, we just gotta get as many people up as we can."

Yeah, that's basically would be my answer too because--

There's no stopping it, probably.

There's not, and I think even more to the point, I think that's the intention of people at the, many of those people at the forefront of these kind of pursuits. It's not an egalitarian, hey, let's get everyone to be able to do this. It is kind of a, you know, elitist, let's make sure that we're the ones who can make sure we can do it, and then if other people can do it, okay, which naturally lends itself to a not good situation. It's the step from that to just like, all right, fuck those people, it's not that far. So yeah, I mean, that's a, it's an interesting thing. I mean, I also wonder how, if we will be able to replicate, not if, when we will be able to replicate the human mind or an accurate representation of it digitally.

I think it, I don't know, I'm undetermined on that. I'm not someone who necessarily believes in the singularity. So I am cautious to say, oh, well, this is a foregone conclusion. I think in a lot of ways, trying to biologically interface with a machine right now, it just could be inconceivable where we are in history. But it seems like there are so many different things, like for instance, again, to go back to the psychedelics just quickly, you know, I was in the book, there's someone, I'm blanking on her name, but she is someone who supported, I believe the Beckley Foundation, she ended up drilling a hole in her head because there was a belief that back in the day, I forget the name of the term for doing what doing that is, but you drill a hole because it increases blood to the brain.

Trepination. - Trepination. Exactly, I knew if anyone was gonna know it, you'd know it. So she did this, right? And you know, she's like, everyone thinks I'm crazy, blah, blah, blah. So they thought that psychedelics would increase the blood flow to the brain and mass because the experiences people were having these mystical type things, these transcendent, these insights, wisdom, whatever it is. Lo and behold, they found out it's a dampener. It's not that the brain is lit up all around and all of these connections are made all the time, it actually just dampens the parts of our brain and it does create connections, I'm not saying it doesn't, but it dampens parts of our brain that kind of serve as these filters for reality so we can process and function in the real world.

So my question is like, I wonder if the complexity of the human mind isn't necessarily, or the beauty of the human mind isn't necessarily in its complexity, which it obviously is a beautiful complex thing, but when we reduce it, are we getting a more accurate picture of what reality is and then can that lead to broader insights and what we can do both individually, culturally, at large? You know? - Hmm. Well, I wanna loop this back. - Yes, loop it back, yes, yes.

You asked me this question that I put this in elaborate state or and then never actually answered, which is that, you know, like what is the difference between tripping in the woods and tripping on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, right? Like why is one of them okay and one of them not so okay? And I think it's because it has to do with, you know, the ease with which we are able to like slow the mind, or like cease our thought and the way that that allows us to live with the full intelligence of the body into a moment. And so I think that like what I realized, and one of the things that we that we harped on in a crypto curve over and over about trading specifically was don't let your amygdala run the show.

Oh, you're fucked if you do, you lose it all. Do not, do not trade out of fear, right? Do not, and that's what happened to me is that like I,

That is everyone.

I was in there with like 300 milligrams of caffeine in my system and like, you know, really trying to like time these minute fluctuations.

You would have done it too. I'm only laughing 'cause who didn't do that back in December and didn't? Like who didn't? 'Cause it was insane 'cause you could do it like you felt like like, just for people who don't know, like the reason Michael and I who are seemingly intelligent people got into day trading and like swing trading is because there was a time period and this will happen again. There was a time period where basically if you were a monkey and just threw fucking darts at the right, like you had a pretty good chance of making some money in this arena. So like, and you could notice things and what you're talking about, there were arbitrage, possibility, send it here.

There were things that were very clear in terms of looking at cell walls. Like you could do shit, but you could also just so quickly get your ass handed to you so quickly.

Totally. And I definitely made more and lost more money than I thought possible.

Possible, oh my God, I know.

But the point is, the point, and just to be clear, I've never been a man of wealth, you know, like I'm not even talking about the kind of, you know, whatever, but the point is that coming out of that experience, one of my students in the webinar was going through a very similar emotional event where he was like coming into the class, stuck in the middle of a trade, you know, and like watching the little ticker as he's in the class. And I told him, I was like, bro, you need to walk away.

Yes.

You need to step away from this. And that's exactly what you said about, you know, your relationship with social media, which is the point here, which is that, you know, it's like, I'm not gonna work on Maggie's farm no more, or to quote a different song, the drugs don't work. Like you really have to cultivate the reflexivity of the self-consciousness to notice when you're stuck in one of these emcdallic fear dope loops, you know, where you're trying, you're stuck trying to like press the Coke button on the little rat cage, you know, and interrupt that pattern, you know, and there's a lot of really good, you know, just work out of, you know, Milton Erickson and hypnotherapy about pattern interruption that was then, you know, like appropriated by neuro-linguistic programming for like, you know, less sort of noble purposes.

But like that very thing, like even just clapping your hands in front of your face might be enough. I was telling my friend the other day that I felt like whenever we travel that my partner and I are better people. And he's a, he's a somatic therapist. And he was a clinician for MAPS, Saj Razavi. We have a great discussion in the Patreon feed with him and the MDMA therapy that he was doing. And he said, he's like, yeah, you can interrupt the default mode network, which is, you know, the modules of your brain responsible for the self-consciousness that when, when expressed too much results in depression.

Yes.

He's like, you can, you can down regulate that with psychedelics.

Yes.

You can down regulate that with meditation or you can down regulate that with travel because what's happening is-

You're out of your losing your self to so much novelty that you don't have time to think about your like petty depressive emo bullshit.

Yes, the same shit happens with kids too because I can see it and now the studies are coming out that are basically saying kids are tripping all the time 'cause that's how, and I could have told you that. I could have told you that from when my son was first born that this kid is tripping. Like I know this for a fact. I know what trippy, I've seen enough. I know what they look like, this kid is full blown having a trip that's fascinating in these loops. And that's where I think in the neuroscience realm psychedelics are really getting a lot of attention is they're so effective of interrupting those loops.

And I think it's become more and more clear that quote unquote, not quote unquote, a negative mindset like depression. What that is at its core, anyone who's been depressed, no one's so much depressed, it's an intense loop of self-reflection that you cannot get out of. So you then get tunnel vision that you're pain, you're suffering, whatever you've done wrong guilt, whatever shame, all those things are crystallized and focused just over and over and over again. And if you can just get a little jostle, not maybe someone clapping in your face, but something that's psychologically or psychic will changes your operating system or how you perceive for just a few hours.

I mean, the results that they're finding are that that can have months to years to a lifetime of lasting changes in how you perceive certain events. And I've certainly found this with micro dosing. Micro dosing is not every day on a micro dose. And I've experimented with a lot of different regimens. Every day isn't great. It's not like, oh, micro dose, this is amazing, like everything, you get flow states of course, but you also get these things where you can just catch your mind doing some ridiculous things that I know that if I wasn't micro dosing or I hadn't been meditating it, not I don't really meditate, but when I had, I wouldn't notice those things and you realize how much else am I not noticing?

How much else is just on this groove, this neurotransmitter, just the same fucking groove over and over again that I have no opportunity to recognize. And I think the recognition of that recognition really is what spurs kind of these broad kind of cataclysmic changes in people, which is why people have always enjoyed psychedelics, whether that was expressed or had a scientific or empirical backing or not. Like that's what it does for people. It just kind of, it jostles you out of this, and that's why I view not to always bring it back to this. To me, cryptocurrency is the psychedelic of our culture.

This is something that if you are in, we're talking about this now, Bitcoin is people are still probably thinking it's bad and maybe it's going down or go to zero. It's something that when you experientially live through something that pierces a modality like money, so quickly and so with such force that that can't help but change people's mod, like it changed my fucking, it's not the money. The money could be, you know this and I know this. If we go-- - It's like the dollar is having an out of body experience.

That's really what it's like. And it's like fiat currency and it just, it jostles the psyche. I've seen it in my friends who it clicks with, right? I don't know, I call it the crypto vortex, but when it clicks, you understand that, yeah, money rules the world, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if it didn't have to, and rather than just kind of, you know, hippie, smoke and weed saying, yeah, it'd be great if everyone could just not just give each other stuff, but you'd actually, people are then presented with these opportunities. I found this contingent of people who have a broad sampling of experiences with psychedelics naturally gravitate to something like cryptocurrency.

If it's explained where they fully get it. It's something very interesting. And I think it has to do with that kind of interrupting principle that you brought up. It's, that's a really, just really.

Well, Richard Doyle, who I know Michael Philip has had on his show a few times and wrote one of my favorite books about evolution that has heavily inspired this whole conversation called Darwin's Pharmacy. Richard Doyle talks about the principle effect of what he actually renamed Echodelics, because he thinks that, you know, the name is an important part of the programming of the experience. And if you call them Echodelics, it's not, you're talking about them, Deilos Manifesting, which interestingly, Westworld is a Deilos corporation.

Oh, is it?

Anyway, JJ Abrams is kind of, I'm not Jay-Dabra, the runners of those shows kind of know what they're doing with the name.

Yeah, Jonathan Nolan and JJ Abrams.

Yeah.

Yeah, so, so Echodelos is the manifestation of the ecosystem. It's like you, he's, his argument is basically that you take ayahuasca or Ibogaine or whatever, and it decentralizes the self.

Yes. - That suddenly.

Yes.

You see the default mode network and how it's fractally interfolded with your environment and how all of your cognitive activity is actually a, you know, relational between the organism and its surround and that what you think of as the organism is actually established in the interference pattern of these interactions. And that not actually, this, you don't have a simple location. You're not just sitting here in this chair, you know, like you're diffuse, you're spread out through the whole thing. And so in that way, I must agree with you that there is, that it really is, and for that reason, I feel like, you know, the distributed ledger technologies of which blockchain is one and of which cryptocurrency is one application.

Right.

And those are sort of the fulfillment of the promise of the internet.

Yeah.

You know, it's like actually doing what we thought it was doing and we're somewhat less naive about the ways to the architecture of the internet is actually centralized in corporate servers, et cetera. And we're starting to become a little bit more literate about the difference between a centralized and a distributed network.

Yes.

And like how those things behave differently. And so we're actually designing systems intentionally that fulfill the rhetorical promise of the internet rather than just, you know, oh, the internet is great 'cause now you can access your data from everywhere, but it's actually all on the Google servers.

Right, right, right, right. No, and it's, I mean, I think that, we've spoken about it in crypto seer before, the principle that got me hook line sinker with Bitcoin back in the day was the decentralized aspect of it. I liked the immutability, I liked all of the other, but the fact that it was resistant to censorship because of that, because we've seen Napster, we've seen Solcy, we've seen decentralized things that are still susceptible to ISPs and all of these other things. This is of a different magnitude and I'm fascinated to see that if these distributed ledger technologies can usher in what you're talking about, the fulfillment of the utopian, not utopian, but the promise that this could be a system that is actually equitable, that it's not just gonna be yet another thing that can be co-opted by corporations or systems that are already embedded culturally into us because the truth is this is whether people wanna face this as a present fact or a distant concept, the systems that are running shit right now, we're all gonna die, like the species will die out.

Like, this isn't the road to like living out the rest until the sun blows out ages. Like, this is where we are, if we're looking at Bitcoin going up in a parabolic rate, our culture is going up in a parabolic rate and we all know what happens after that, it's called a correction. In our case, it's not gonna be like, oh, I lost money, it's like, everyone's dead.

It just falls into the ocean, is what happens here, yeah.

Man, dude, I have to run, I just realized in the next 15 minutes, but we could talk forever. I wanna end with my three questions and then my last question with you, but dude, let's do this again. I wanna get on, I wanna do it.

Let's jump onto your muscles.

Yeah, man, 'cause I always have so much fun speaking to you and for how much we're talking about Facebook, that's how we usually interact. You just can't, you can't do it effectively. It's like, you just can't. So, all right, here's something I could ask you on Facebook while I was on the podcast. What is your favorite color?

Green.

What is your favorite number?

It's either seven or eight.

Cool, cool, cool. What is your favorite animal?

Ooh.

I know that's a hard one for you.

Well, I think my spirit animal is the Archaeopteryx.

What is the Archaeopteryx? Or what is that?

Archaeopteryx is, in German it's called Ervogel, which is the first bird, but it's not actually the first bird, but it was the first fossil discovered of an intermediary bird dinosaur. You know, like it had teeth and claws and feathers. And it could clearly fly. And yeah, it's first, when they first found it, they didn't notice the feather traces in the fossil and thought it was this other tiny dinosaur. And it was used, it's early specimens in the 1800s were used to defend Charles Darwin's theory of evolution because the original critique was, where are the intermediary fossils? Like animals change the other animals.

Where's the bird lizard that you're suggesting in the origin of species? And then he's like, I don't know. And then they were like, here it is. (laughing) Here it is. So it's one of the most historically significant fossil animals of any kind. But it's also, it came to me as my spirit animal in a trip that I had in 2010, when I realized, first of all, that the reason I hadn't identified a spirit animal was because it was extinct. (laughing) And two, that this spoke to the human becoming. You know, that a reminder that a fossil is just a snapshot of evolution in progress and that nothing is ever done.

And that this creature is like human beings. You know, we think of ourselves as like finished. You know, that this is what a human is. But in 100 years, we're gonna have a completely different definition of what a human is.

Yeah.

You know, that 145 million years ago, Archaeopteryx was what a bird was.

Right.

But if anybody saw that shit now, they'd be like, what? You know, that's not anything that I recognize as a bird. And so I really feel that that's just, you know, that's one of my favorites just because it reminds me that everything's a work in progress.

That's really fucking important because I think that's such a liberating concept in general, that things are a work in progress because we like to be there and culture reinforces that in every single way. And it just, it does provide a level of freedom if you can just remember that. Well, that leads into the next question. What is a practical tip that has helped you in your life that you could share with people listening?

So this actually goes back to the final and complete statement that you were saying, like how do we deal with all of this? How do we deal? Well, the answer, the only answer I have, which is boring at its presentation, I think probably, but is that a couple of weeks ago, and I struggle with depression too. And psychedelics really only help for a while.

Yeah.

You know, it's not a permanent solution. But I got to a point this summer where I was just like, man, things are just so awful. I don't want to be this guy anymore. Luckily, I'm not the kind of person that suffers from like suicidal ideation, but I am the kind of guy that's like, suffers from just throw it all down the drain. Like, you know, just commit career suicide, break up with your partner and like move to, you know, Southeast Asia or whatever. It's like fuck it all. And I was like, I'll do one better. I bet that I can stop being this guy and keep all of his stuff if I just meditate more often.

And, you know, that I can, you know, by, again, I was in a conversation with Richard Doyle and he's been one of my greatest inspirations to pursuing, if not entirely accomplishing a regular meditation practice, you know, because it's, what he showed me was this, the very specific like insight meditation where you fold your subjectivity on itself, where you turn your attention to the eye, you know, where the thing that you were paying it, that you're concentrating on, that you're redirecting, it's not necessarily turning your attention to the breath.

It's to the eye, that the, yes, yes.

That's the subjective phenomenon of a self and looking at the, the, me, this guy.

I call that uncomfortable meditation.

Yeah, yeah, but that particular practice has done more for me than any other form of meditation where it seems to work better for any kind of, any, you know, it gets you more for less, I think, than pretty much anything else that I've tried. And it saved my relationship and it saved my living situation and it saved a lot of future fossils listeners from inexplicable gaps in that programming show. So, you know, that's what I recommend.

I love that, I love that. And I think there's an element, I think that emerges from that type of self reflection on the eye that there's an aspect of surrender that inevitably just emanates from that. And that to me, just to be clear, I resist surrender all of the time. Like I know how great it is. I just, it's hard. So, but if you can get to that point by just reflecting back on it, I totally get it, man. Dude, I really do have such a fun time speaking with you. I always learn like a million things like as worth speaking. It's just, you're a blast to have on. Let's get you on in the not too distant future.

And yeah, man, I'm looking forward to talking.

Thanks a lot, Noah. You're a very generous host. (both laughing)

Thanks.

Appreciate it.

All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon.

Take care.

Peace. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Open your eyes, open your eyes ♪ (upbeat music)

Thank you for listening to the episode and past the music. That's always cool. If you like Michael, if you like what you heard, Future Fossils is the podcast. Michaelgarfield.com, I wanna say, Michaelgarfield.net, something like that. Go Google M, he's everywhere. He does a lot of, he's just so much stuff. He's not just the podcaster, musician, artist, thinker, philosopher, archeologist. So go check him out, if you like the show. This show, that is, rate it, review it, cool. Makes me feel good. That's why I'm asking you to do it for no other reason. I like it. That's it, big thanks to Patrick Nemczyk, Patreon supporter numero Uno for a very long time.

Love you, man. That's it. I'll see you next week. Bye-bye.