Into the Deep with Michael Donovan

(upbeat music)

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music)

Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week is Michael Donovan, his return visit. We're going through the old favorites here. Going through the hits. Michael got back in town into New York. I was in New York a couple of weeks ago and we got to link up, which is always nice to see Michael. If you're not familiar with Michael Donovan, his photography, his art is incredible. It's fashion photography, the type of photography he does for his art, and I don't really say this to Michael directly too often, so I'm sure I hope I appreciate hearing it in some capacity, but what he does is really an art form and the longer and the more I view his work, the more I appreciate his aesthetic and really just his talent and skill in terms of executing and the stories behind a lot of his projects are equally as fascinating, which if you listen to the John Simon podcast, John F. Simon, that episode for me really kind of got to the root of the process and the story behind any art project or any creative work being equally valid, if not more engaging for people actually witnessing the creative project.

So yeah, Michael's really amazing at what he does and this episode was pretty interesting. You'll hear at the beginning, we deal with some topics of depression that Michael was experiencing. It gets pretty heavy right from the beginning, but it's also pretty light because you, you know, things can go pretty quickly in one direction or another with Michael and it was really, it's a great conversation. It's, we deal with a lot of stuff though in this. It's not, it's light-hearted but deep and sometimes kind of dark, which is I think a reflection of where Michael is at right now, which is cool 'cause he's kind of riding that wave in an interesting way.

So before we get to the episode, I want to talk about something and I haven't done this, man, when's my last rant, man? I don't know. Episode, months ago, if not a year ago, but I, no name shall be named. I'm not going to, this is not a flame war for anything. Now I've been anxious, I'm sure. But I want to talk about something that I've been noticing, you know, going on for at least, you know, three or four or five years, probably longer I've noticed it, but I was entrenched in a lot of it, is this idea of spiritual materialism and kind of what's happening now to the scene of not, I wouldn't call it new age, but you know, spiritual teachers, many who are incredibly astute, wise, have a lot to communicate and also, you know, genuinely want to improve the lives of people who find them.

On the flip side of that, I've noticed something that to me is kind of like, it's been going on for decades, I'm sure, since the beginning of the Eastern traditions kind of met the Western world and not even just the Eastern traditions, Western mysticism, occultism, many of these things, you know, are all related in this mode of thinking that certain people develop or are attracted to spiritual scenes because they're the validity at the core of these things, but then use that as a way to kind of exert power or gain power or, you know, insert themselves into something and use it as a tool, whether consciously or unconsciously.

And so this is what I refer to as spiritual materialism. And the reason I bring it up is because the more I've been thinking about it, the more I see it, although I tried to say as tuned out as possible from some of these things, it reminds me of kind of what started to happen with the church and when you're organizing things around certain dogmatic beliefs or doctrine, even if it's fluid, even if the doctrine is, there is no doctrine, you can see some type of dogma emerge. And I think we're at the point now in Western culture, we've seen quite a bit of this going on, you know, it's been, you know, 50 plus years, 60, 70 years since, you know, a lot of these Eastern and more esoteric kind of texts and perspectives have permeated the Western culture, especially in the United States and Europe.

So, you know, this gives us a long period of time for perspectives and kind of motives to emerge in a quote unquote spiritual scene. And so, again, I have come to the opinion, you know, and many of this from personal experience that most people who find themselves kind of perpetuating a spiritual materialistic kind of sophistry, you know, pay for wisdom, model, you know, in one way or the other, whether explicitly or, you know, via other relationships, have similar qualities to people who I wouldn't engage with as friends. And so that's kind of been where the root and the genesis of my thinking for this as a march.

And I know I'm being somewhat vague, and I know I've spoken to some of you privately about this, and you know exactly what I'm talking about, but my point for bringing it up is this is, when I started my first business, which was an online music magazine, I had a line of thinking, I was young, I was early 20s, mid 20s, and my line of thinking was is, if we can just get a celebrity or someone famous to extol the virtues of this particular business, that will be an inflection point for the trajectory of this business. And what I refer to that as is completely backwards thinking now, that's not how things work.

You wanna build something substantial, and it should be built on its own merit, not off the backs of someone else or some other thing. And I think if you can find people who kind of embody those qualities of wanting to build for themselves and doing it for the love of it, not because it's a channel to make money, not that there's anything wrong with making money. I mean, you've heard me talk about cryptocurrency enough, I'm not against making money in any way, but tying together these two very kind of meaty, resonant areas, which is money and spirituality or the reason for being or some broader perspective of what life and death and all the rest of this could mean, you have to tread carefully, because I've seen it happen too many times where people who are attracted to a particular organization or teacher are viewed as customers by that very organization or teacher.

They're not looked at people who are gravitating towards a message, of course, that can always be held up to say, of course, well, we're spreading this wisdom, I have this, I have this perspective, it's not really me, I'm doing this as Dharma or whatever, but obviously, we all know of examples of people who can use that as kind of a crutch or an excuse. On top of that, we're also seeing a lot of these weird clashes, not weird, but it seems very obvious in the meaty culture, which is a great thing, a lot of these teachers are getting exposed for sexual impropriety, and that, I don't, again, don't find surprising, because they're dynamics that can emerge in a teacher, student, higher up, hierarchical society, whether it's within a religious context or not, that those types of dynamics can be exploited by people who can't restrain their shadow side for lack of a better term, anyway.

The reason I'm, again, just to wrap this all up, and I'm only venting 'cause I've had these thoughts and I figured, you know, I could write something out, I'm probably not gonna get it out as effectively as quickly as I wanted, I could just record it for myself and listen back like a weirdo, but I think the practical benefit of speaking about this on this platform that I have is just be mindful of that when you're doing that, and typically, in my experience, the organizations and the people who follow, who come after or around, surround some entity or teacher who genuinely seems to be doing well, those are the people to just be mindful of.

You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, like there's no part of me that, you know, disregards an entire wisdom tradition or perspective of a really smart person, because, you know, they got some shady people who are involved. Anything would have that, but just to be aware of those things and recognize where you might be fitting in as a cog in the business model, I think is good. I think that's like, that can't be a bad thing. So for those of you who know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about, for those of you who don't, just take it as a general reminder, and that is all, I will say about that probably for a very long time, nothing but love for everyone out there listening to this.

So without further ado, let's just get to Michael Donovan, I'll maybe have some messages relating business stuff. Patrick Nemchik, you're the best. Let's get to this episode without further ado. Here is Michael Donovan. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

How am I going to, I gotta shake out, I gotta wake up.

Michael Donovan, me too, I just had a shitload of bread.

Yeah, so I'm like tired now.

Wait, you had bread the restaurant or bread?

Bread.

Like the food, yeah, because there is a restaurant called Bread not too far around here, back in, I don't know if that's still around.

I had some bread and I'm tired and sluggish now.

Well, me too, so we're in the same mind state, I had a shitload of bread from Grand Central Station, that was phenomenal.

Oh, I can't do this anymore, man, I'm trying to cut out breads and shits every day, I forget.

Why?

Why?

Why, because it causes inflammation, it makes you fat. The two go together, so you eat it, it causes inflammation.

But being fat is kind of fun, but isn't being fat kind of fun.

No, it's not.

Not being fat, but getting fat, that's kind of fun.

Not getting fat, but being fat really isn't fun.

I know, they should, I agree with that, I couldn't agree more, I don't like the way I feel when I'm fat, but I do enjoy eating food a lot.

Yeah, I do enjoy eating food.

I do, I really enjoy it. It's something that I have no qualms about eating, it's one of my top pleasures in life, I would say. Like I'd thoroughly enjoy eating food. I don't think I can cut out bread, it's what I'm saying.

I want to get rid of bread though, because when you don't eat it though, like I was eating some vegan stuff out in LA.

Vegan's good?

Yeah, and I didn't miss any breads or anything, but then I would eat-

Bread is vegan.

Shut up dude.

You're just saying.

Shut the fuck up.

Bread is vegan.

You know what I'm saying. No, there's really like, okay, so I'm 40, how old are you right now?

About to be 35.

Okay, so I was the same fucking way. When I was 34, you know about why I did, one of the reasons I did DMT?

No.

Have you done five MEO, DMT?

No, I'll ask about that in a second, but I gotta tell you this. When I was like a 27, 28, 29, something like that, I said if I wasn't where I want to be with my career, this is when I was like in stand up before I started doing photography or like I just transitioned, like around the area. I said if I'm not gonna be where I'm at with my career by the time I'm 35, I'm gonna move to an island, do a lot of drugs and throw my life away.

35?

35.

So there I was in Manhattan, an island.

There you go.

My career wasn't where I wanted it to be. So I was offered DMT and I was like fuck it, I'm gonna throw my life away. And here I am now.

There you go, so that's all that.

So when I was 34, going on 35, I would be the same way. I'd be like, oh yeah, eat bread, do all the stupid shit. (laughs)

Like that you put bread in the stupid chick category.

It is stupid shit. It is, it's just like, it's like saying like I'm going to fucking murder my health, my future self. It really is.

I listen, I'm not even arguing about it.

It's catching the caught up on me in the past six months.

Yeah.

Really bad. Like I think I gained like 20 something pounds because I'm probably not, but.

From eating bread?

I think from all the bad shit, bread's and sugars.

Yeah.

So I have to cut it out, but I'm so addicted at this point. It's like someone saying, it's my co-condiction, man.

I know what you're saying. I am not making way to be at all either 'cause I know exactly what you're saying, man. That shit is, it is, I say I can't get rid of it because I can't even imagine it. And I went full on vegan for two years and that shit seemed like a walk in the park compared to giving up bread. I can't even fathom the thought. Is that bad? What if you make it at home with yourself with like your own yeast?

You know what you're doing, man. You know what you're doing to your body. It's just, it's just bad. It just turns you doughy. And you know when it really started to hit, like it's been hitting for a little while, but then I'm saying at this like, "The world's shittiest Airbnb." (laughing)

You got that sense and you're like, "Let's not do it in my hair."

Oh, God, it's so awful, man. It's so awful. And I gotta tell you what I'm saying.

What is it, 6,000 a night?

No, I was like, "I'm not gonna pay that much." So I got like an inexpensive one, but it's like the--

Yeah, would you be able to?

There's like a 27, 28-year-old stoner kid who they don't clean at all. And then the other roommate, 'cause it's like, you know, it's like one of those places where there's people there. And then the other guy is like this like, 20-something-year-old kid. And I was like, I was like damn, that kid just fucking jerks off like all day long. (laughing) 'Cause it builds up against my wall.

Oh no!

You can just hear this like--

Oh, and you know it's just him? (laughing) And I've never heard a girl. I've never heard anything. And it's just like non-fucking stop all day, all night. And then like, I walked in the other day and like, one of his buddies was there and he just looks at me like, "Whoa!" Like he got scared. Like, "What's this old man doing here?" And I'm like, "I don't wanna be here either, man." And then, so last night, I don't know it was this morning, you know, it's just, he's rocking again, like all night last night, all day today. And then I walked down the hallway and then he just pops out of his door. And then I like kind of like glanced over it 'cause it's like, his room has to be empty.

And there's like fucking girl in there.

Oh, so he's not jerking.

Yeah, but I'm like, "Dude, she's not making, "like, any like, this feels good. "It's just, it's still works."

Maybe he's like, maybe he's like just be quiet. He's like, be quiet, I got a guy on the other side.

It doesn't even matter. It's like, she has to like have some kind of pleasure.

I've also, yeah, that's weird that maybe the walls aren't that thin, it's just that one sound getting through.

No, dude, no. 'Cause you can hear people coughing. No, this is true.

Maybe he hired the girl to go in there. So it wouldn't seem like he's jerking off to you for your benefit.

And the worst part is that guy, that kid has a room with no window.

So they're like--

That'll fuck with your head, man.

That's like solitary confinement. You will go insane. The one time I lived in a room without a window or it had like a shitty window to an alley, I got to press and I'm very rarely depressed and I got immediately depressed within three months. I'm like, "Oh, life sucks, everything is bad." Nothing is good, so.

Dude, I just dealt with some massive depression this weekend.

Really?

Dude, are we doing this on mine or your podcast?

Either one, we can do mine.

We can just put it on both.

Yeah.

Is that cool?

That's fine, okay.

Let's take anyone out 'cause my last episode, I kind of talked a little bit about it, but it was like so bad. I'm good now, you can tell that I'm fine.

Yeah, you seem pretty at ease.

I'm normal.

Yeah, normal.

But I was going through it and just before I say this, my team, I don't want anybody to worry or think my team and I like kind of diagnose it. Some days I get more depressed because there's like, it's like a slow day and then on Mondays I get really irritating to my team and they're like, "Oh my God, we don't want to be near you."

That's why they figured out your patterns.

Well, I figured it out and I was like, I need to shoot on Sundays, otherwise I'm going to have depression, like I'm going to keep going.

So schedule stuff for Sundays?

So we're just scheduling like, silly shoots on Sundays. Like so good Sundays. - It's a good idea.

Yeah. So I was so fucked up and I'm not embarrassed to say this, I'm a little embarrassed, but I don't want to be scared. It was the first time I googled the hotline.

Suicide hotline?

And I pulled it up on my phone and I had it like ready just to hit send.

So you were having suicidal thoughts?

And I've had them before, but this was like the darkest I went and I think it's like, and I was like, it was dark, man.

That's dark, man.

It was fucking dark. And like I was like, I knew that I wasn't going to do anything, but I was dealing with thoughts that I never dealt with thoughts before, like that. And then as I talked to more friends that experience like harder, like I thought I experienced hard depression.

Probably not. If you're okay today, like this. - Yeah, yeah.

Probably not clinical.

I've always had depression here and there, but then I talked to friends that like are really struggling with it and they're like, oh, I like they pace back and forth so they can't leave their rooms or they deal with it for like weeks, those thoughts. It's like those thoughts were like the worst thing I've ever experienced in my entire life.

What were the thoughts?

It was just suffocating. I did this editorial based on depression, based on what I was trying to do. And Taylor Art directed it and it was like really fucking good.

Yeah, it's awesome.

But now I understand like what she, 'cause she's talked, we talked about depression before. Like the images like what I was like encouraged to make are really what it felt like. You can't fucking move.

Yeah, that's what I've heard.

You can't, and I've had depression, but this was on a whole other level.

Yeah, I've not had it that bad. I really, I mean, actually that's not true. After I was up very high up for three months, very high up, which was insane. That's when I lived in that apartment. That's when I started doing stuff that I didn't want to do. I was taking weed from a roommate without him knowing. Just like low down grimy shit made me feel bad. I don't think I got out of bed for like three or four days. And I remember specifically the feeling of having to go out and like get something. I was smoking cigarettes. And I like, my legs were like jelly. And I was like, oh my God, what the fuck?

Like I haven't moved in so long. Like literally like physically moved. I'm like, you know, I probably got up to go bathroom and chip, but oh man.

But even that, it's like a days when you're in there. And that's the thing. I realized what it was, is I was in this place. I wasn't in my world. I was in my world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was soaking up their fucking shitty energy.

Maybe the dude jacking off his stuff into you.

Maybe the sadness is sad sex ejaculate psychic energy is going into you and you're like, oh God.

It had to, because that whole place is depressing. And I was like, you know, we've grown up. So we don't live in shitholes anymore.

Yeah.

So all of a sudden it's thrown into a shithole.

Oh, it'll fuck with you.

Yeah. It's like, is this what my life has come to? And people are like, well, why don't you just get another Airbnb? And I'm like, I paid for this shit.

How long are you there till?

30th. And then I'm looking at a place on Delancy and Essex.

Is it nicer?

What's that?

It has to be nicer, right?

Oh my God, no, it's gonna be my place. Like a buddy and I are talking about moving it together.

How cool.

And, you know, like this.

I like that area, yeah. It's a larger space and it has tons of light and I can travel easier.

Like a normal?

Airbnb and someone will be there when I leave.

Yeah, and no roommate, Jack and Off in the, or actually having sex.

I got to check with Brad. (laughing)

To make sure there's a wall between the two of us.

Yeah, man. Well, depression is a motherfucker. I had Dustin Marshall on here on the second episode. And he's talked about a recent suicide attempt. He didn't just call him, he didn't call a huddle. He tried to kill himself.

And just to be clear, I knew in the moment I was not close to attempt.

That's yeah.

I've thought about it before and everything. Like that was like, if I'm close.

We just wanted to talk to someone.

I'm being more aware with my depression. And I think everybody should be more aware of their depression when they're in that thought. I actually thought that was like a good move on my half. Like I was nowhere close to it. Like if, you know what I mean? There's like so many layers. That's why I don't want anybody to like freak out or anything or be worried about it.

I'm not that, I'm sitting with you and I'm not wondering.

This is my cry for help man, and you're ignoring it now.

Huh?

Oh yeah, yeah, this is the cry for, I'll feel like a real asshole after this. No, I mean, I can tell the difference when people, not that you're not depressed or, you know, I can tell when people really need help. It's a different vibe about people. So you think it was just set in because of circumstance relating to work or general theme.

This is what I think it is. This is what I found, 'cause I told you I wanted to talk anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

This is the trip to LA, and for the audiences, I've been living here for 10 years, and then I took, this is my longest I've been away from.

Extended trip.

Three months, and before I left for a month and a half and people thought I moved away for a good, and I was only gone for a month and a half. This one is three months out in LA, like where I did not come back for anything.

Yeah.

And it opened up my eyes. Like I was able to leave the New York ego behind. Like in terms of it's, you know, it's Michael Donovan. Michael Donovan, the photographer. Michael Donovan, the photographer of New York. And I had to like, you know, I was able to cut that out, and I was able to see sunshine and happiness and joy, and it took a while to find some friends out there that really started to connect with them or available, because finding people that are available in any new city is really hard.

Especially LA. We have to drive everywhere.

LA or New York. I think any city, I think it's like, it's hard, but the driving, it's over there, it's driving. Over here, if you're gonna make friends,

Gotta go out usually.

You gotta go out, you gotta go to a bar, you gotta go eat.

Yeah, you gotta go eat.

You just need your drink.

Yeah, you gotta go out.

Yeah, although my friend True and I, we figured something out. We were waiting for a comedy show, and we ended up hanging out to kill time at a hotel lobby.

Oh my God. Hotel lobby's are incredible.

Yeah.

No, they're like the perfect hotel lobby. First of all, so I was telling Alexis she was not keen on this story, but when we were in college, we were in Boston, like downtown Boston, that's where my college was. And my friend and I, who went to two different places, but we would go to hotel bars and you can meet some fucking cool, weird, interesting people. Plus, it's usually just a generally fun, like cool environment to be in, and it's out. That's cool, yeah, no. They're the best.

Did you make it, the hotel's like our special place, and so I learned like, I was like, oh, I wanted to just start hanging out with friends, 'cause what you end up doing, this is the trick. Like the other day, so my friend True, she came to New York. And so we were like, oh, let's go do something. She's like, I wanna see New York. So then we go get a drink, and then we kinda wandered around a little bit, and then we ended up at Cafe Regio, and we put in earplugs so we couldn't hear anything, but we just, people watched, literally just watched, with no noise. And then we ended up, we're like, I was like, oh, you should see Union Square at this time.

We're watching the Square Park, yeah, this closed. But you should see Union Square, it's closed. It's like three in the morning or something, or two in the morning, so we got a coffee shop. Or it's like one 30, one o'clock in the morning. They got a coffee shop, and they're closing. So then we walked all the way up to 40th. Holy shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we hung out at Times Square. Of course. The best place in New York. For anyone who's never been, that's the place you wanna go, Times Square. But if somebody doesn't wanna drink all night, and you're with somebody who doesn't wanna drink.

That is actually a good, yeah. What are you gonna do in the city? Parks are closed. Yeah. You're kinda fucked. Whereas in LA, that's what it was like, what really got to me is in LA, we would go to a movie, and then you're talking before the movie, and you're like, shit, the movie starts at five minutes, and then suddenly the movie's over, and you didn't even go in, you just hung out. And that quality of life, of just hanging out with your friends and chilling, what do we have to do? We have to do a fucking podcast to hang out with people. You can't just-- It is true. It's harder to get people to do stuff.

It is. It's true. There's a hustle here that is undeniable that you are almost sucked into, whether it's willingly or not. Yeah, no, it's definitely true. I mean, I feel like every time I come into the city, I love it, obviously, and I think people hopefully who live here love that too, but yeah, it's undeniable. That you get sucked into it. There's not a lot of chilling. There's not.

Chilling is off limits here.

I chilled as much as one could in the city, and it was-- - What's that?

I chilled as much as one could. You remember, I had an apartment. I smoked weed in there and did what I wanted to do all day. That's probably about as chill as you can get in the city, like otherwise you have to go out to do almost anything.

And then what happens is that the people are in this chill.

Well, yeah.

So the lack of chillness here is like drives me nuts on a different level where people are cranky and grumpy. And so I think from going into a place where life is beautiful, it's sunny and people are kind and people are kind here in a different way. Like everybody always wants to point out, like yeah, New Yorkers are very generous, very kind, super sweet people, but it's a different level. Like people like carry stresses on their face. You know, they carry-- - Without a doubt.

It's much more, it seems more stressful on a day to day, hour to hour basis here from my limited experience in LA. But maybe also 'cause you're just jammed together. You know what I mean? Like that's the thing, like that's what blew my mind about LA is that it's just so, everything is far enough apart that like you're not like, you may be walking down the street and see a bunch of people, but it's not like here you walk down the street, there's only a bunch of people. Like you can't not see a lot of people.

And then we were talking on the phone of the day, you and I, and I got off the phone and I was thinking of that, be the change you want to be. So I'm like, 'cause I remember I was like by Union Square and I was like, hey, I'm looking around. I see 80 people, there's one fucker that's smiling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I've been to bars with friends and we were like stopping, we were like, look around at how many people are smiling, we'd see like one or two people, and an entire bar where-- - And now drinking and happy, yeah.

Yeah, so then I was like, I'm gonna be the change. I want to see, and I would like put a big smile on my face and be pleasant. - Yeah.

And that shit would last maybe a minute and a half. It's like harder than meditation.

In New York to smile at everyone is probably one of the hardest challenges.

Just to keep a smile, even if you look straight ahead, throw some glass on, it is harder than meditation.

You gotta be really high. And most of the time the high people don't even look that happy in the city. It's true, it's just not the vibe. It's not a smiley type of place, that's for sure. It's not a smiley type, I always feel like I kind of have a smile, but--

But it goes away when you're walking and you've got the thoughts popping.

Yeah, my New York experience is very different now because I don't get to come in that much. And when I do come in, I like, now I jam-pack like as much as I possibly can in the shortest possible timeframe, whereas before when I lived here, I was like, "Ehh, whatever, maybe I'll do that. "I think I'll just stay home and order some food." It's not a big deal. So I'm more appreciative of it now. But I also like recognize to support yourself as an artist and a creative in a city like this, that's not a fun task for most people, like no matter what level of, it's not like an easy thing to do, and that'll weigh on people no matter what.

Yeah, I mean, the conversation I just had with Shawna Cass over there, we were talking about, I mean, it's becoming increasingly clear whether it's the creative class or families or people that it's just so hard to make ends meet to match people's lifestyles and expectations, not that everyone has reasonable expectations, but it seems like reasonable expectations are so far out of reach as well. You mean in New York? In New York, but also just in the country. Like that's a broader symptom of the country. Oh my God, for the audience, what's about to happen? Is this Noah's about to sell us on cryptocurrency?

No, I'm not. I'm not talking about cryptocurrency. Dude, dude, dude, Jordan Peterson, what are your thoughts on Jordan Peterson? I love Jordan. Oh my God, I love this. Tell me why you love Jordan Peterson. One, he's just out there doing his thing, and it's not necessarily popular. It's very popular. Well, it's popular within one group, but it's not popular with others. And I like that there's a lot of things he says that actually make sense. And there's two sides of him. There's the political side, and then there's this-- This is what I hear. This is what I hear. The stand up for yourself thing.

And I actually, because I got into the heat of discussion yesterday. Yeah, this is why I brought him up. And why did you hear the-- No, I didn't. I brought him up because he's one of the two people where I think you can find strong opinions, no matter how hard you might try to not have them. It's Jordan Peterson and Kanye West. Everyone has opinion on them, but Jordan Peterson is very fascinating to me because most people I know, including myself, think he's a fucking idiot. Just like, not wholesale baby out with the bathwater, but like for the most part, you're kind of a misogynist. But then I have people like you and other people who I really think are smart, discerning, reasonable people in some regards who genuinely like him.

So he's just like a fun person to bring out, continue. Oh, yeah. No, well, that was the thing is that I think that what happened with myself-- So to back up the reason why I even cared at all, because I remember when Duncan bought him on Cora was telling me like, hey, you got to check out this guy, Jordan, and she told me about what he was talking about. And it was about the pronouns. And I was like, just let them do their pronouns. Like, I was like, yeah, what's wrong with this guy? And then I was like, why is Duncan bringing this person on? What's wrong with Duncan now? And then I ended up seeing the Evergreen State College video.

Yes. And then that was like, whoa, that is extreme. It seems almost like a parody. Yeah, and I'm like, well, I do see that happening because I see that happening with myself when I explain stuff to some friends of where I'm more centrist, where I'm not as liberal. I don't want to go all the way off the deep end. And then that's when I found out about Jordan Peterson. And then I'm like, OK, well, this is somewhere that's left of-- or I'm sorry, right of center. I'm not necessarily as right of center as he is. But I do need to listen to more viewpoints and people that are centrist. When I listen to Kanye, Kanye has been fucking ahead, constantly.

And this new shit that he said, I haven't heard all of it. But some of the stuff I'm like, he's preaching fucking love. People have trouble with Kanye because he says, Kanye is not intellectually smart or wise. And I don't think he would claim to be. I consider Kanye West the mystical type of person. He's channeled a level of energy that very few people throughout history have been able to maintain in people's collective consciousness. And I think that requires a special type of person. He also seems like the type of person where he has a thought and he thinks he's the first person to ever have the thought.

And I find that endearing where a lot of people find that off-putting. Yeah, that guy a lot of the time too. Yeah, and that's totally cool. And I've been that person, which is why probably I find it endearing. But I also think it's kind of like a kid. It's funny. It's not bad. And I think if he's talking about good shit, that's not bad. But when he makes a comment, the slavery thing was a choice. On some metaphysical level, maybe collectively, Kanye, yes, you asked him why, but clearly you're misinformed and shouldn't be saying things like that with your plan. What do you say, exactly? Because I heard that.

He went to TMZ. I saw just a video of him, it really buck off, back off. And I loved it. And I really thought it was pretty good. We were just talking about this over there. We're trying to cast that it was good documentary filmmaking. It was like a real person confronting Kanye about ignorant comments he had made. He was just saying that slavery was a choice. And the first Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, just like dumb shit. But was he saying that-- because the way that I understood it was he said 400 years of slavery and-- Sounds like a choice. Yeah, and so-- His point was that they didn't collectively get their shit together to not be slaves.

Therefore, it was a choice. This is a dumb thing to say. Well, that's OK. So this is the Jordan Peterson, Kanye, where they both kind of-- I think they're on their own same page where what they're kind of eluding to is-- It's wrong, though. It's a wrong-- Well, there's wrong. And there's right. And there's somewhere in between the two, right? And I'm not saying-- I don't want it to come off as I'm saying. Yeah, it's the truth. But there's a part where people have been oppressed, and people have been victimized. I think we can all agree on that. There was out of their control, and then individually, we have moments where you end up becoming-- I'm not talking about slavery as in slavery from the 1700s.

At one point, you have to-- as an individual right now, some people will see themselves as a slave to the system. Yes, yes, yes. I know what you're saying. And so a lot of people see themselves as a slave to the system. And there's other people that are saying the system works for me. And a friend said it in a different way. She said, we're talking about photographers, and she said, there's some photographers that work for photography, and there's others that have photography work for them. So lifestyle photographers tend to have it work for them. They just live their life. They document. They resell everything, whereas a big-fashioned photographer is basically a slave to the machine.

Working for the photography industry, yeah. So it becomes a choice. And do you know what I mean? I do know what you're saying. Here's the problem with this. And this is where I think the Jordan Peterson stuff-- I tend to be comfortable saying this is just incorrect-- is that conveniently, most of the positions that Jordan Peterson holds and Kanye's position holds are just benefiting a very specific subset of the culture that is undeniable, even if you want to use his buzzword, Jordan Peterson's multi-variant analysis, which truthfully, when he says that, it sounds good until you read some of the things he's referencing, and it doesn't really make that much sense.

Or it's a really small sample size. Or it's something like the lobsters, where it's like, yeah, hierarchical societies. It makes sense that if serotonin is secreted, that that would lead to some hierarchical society where balance was achieved. However, what are fucking lobsters? No, did you actually read that part? I read him speak about it in a debate with someone. OK, so the explanation-- because I read that part. Yes. And his whole thing for people that aren't aware, though, he has this-- and it's chapter one of his book, "12 Laws of Nothing"-- "12 Simple Rules," yeah, "12 Simple Rules." "11 Is Hate Women."

[LAUGHTER] Hate anyone different than him. I stopped him. He's very-- Oh, it gets real bad at 11. Not that I don't know. He's religious, and around four or five, it was about-- Isn't there enforced monogamy somewhere now? I don't know. He started getting into Christian shit, and I was like, I'm done. But that's what I'm saying. I'm not like a full-on. I do just like the-- just people being strong about an opinion that they're not overtly terrible people. But OK, so he used to think about the stand-up like a lobster thing. The way he explains it is the way that I perceived it. Because it doesn't matter what he says.

It's how you perceive it, right? So the perception that I got was that he has this analogy of like two lobsters meet up that are going to have a duel essentially. And-- Who's going to establish news in charge? Who's going to-- yeah, who's going to have dominance? And so if I whoop your ass-- I'm in charge. I'm a 10. Now you're a 5. Another lobster comes in there. I whoop its ass. I'm a 7, and I'm still a 10. This thing, now does it challenge you? And it creates this hierarchy. And it really comes down to strengths, the ability to fight, or its ability to-- Whatever is best, yeah. Like they're able to make it in the market or whatever.

So what his thing was like, you know, stand up like a lobster. He's like, just stop. Like at one point, say you're a 3. You don't have to keep being a 3. Stand up for yourself. Get out there and go do work. Quit being like, oh, I'm a 3. And actually, or being even worse, there's a lot of people that are like, I'm a 3, or I'm a 2, but they're actually like a 3. They have a leg up, and they don't realize that they have a leg up. I've been that guy, and that's why I resonate with me. Because as an adult male, and that's, you know, it's more directed through a young man, but as a human being, there's an aspect of me that I've been like, I've had good things.

And I still felt like a lesser than, and it brought me down further and further and further. And so what I got out of it, the stand up like a lobster, I'm not getting into the serotonin shit, because I don't believe that he's on point with this part. But I do believe that I don't, and I don't have to like, I'll press other people to stand up and fight people.

Right, which is somewhat embedded in his metaphor.

I think so, but I don't think that--

This is where he's crafty. This is where he hedges his positions by essentially saying, oh, well, I didn't say that. And like, does a little cartoon but--

So you think that he's--

I think that he, if you look at what he's, first of all, one of the reasons that I comment on Jordan Peterson so much is he has popularized Jungian methods in a big way. People are using the words archetype. Like, you know, people are talking about collective unconscious and projections and all of these things, which is cool. Jung never really got the love he deserved or what he did. But like, he never once, I've never heard him once mention Marie-Louis von Franz. This is my big sticking point with Jordan Peterson, not that he needs to specifically mention her, but it's convenient that he doesn't.

This was Jung's main translator, she was a woman, she is a much better writer, she was a much better writer than Jung, she synthesized Jung's overly verbose and complicated words into things that people could understand. The problem with not bringing her up is it throws a fucking kink into his whole concept of how, cosmology of how the world works, where someone like her shouldn't have been a great counterpart to Jung. She was the masculine, logical, analytical, basically bust up the whole conception of his meal.

So what I should bring to your show and talk to him about.

So what's funny is two and a half years ago, at the Mine Wave event, my friend who I met at that event said, you should check out this guy, Jordan Peterson, cos a lot of times people hear me talk about him or I'll mention him and be like, "Oh, you don't read this, you don't know anything." I was like, "Oh." So I watched a few of his videos, I sent him an email, this was like a month or a couple months before all this shit started to hit the fan up in Canada with him. I didn't find anything particularly offensive. It seemed like something shifted, whether he knowingly knew it or not. And like to me, it doesn't look all that complicated.

What he's talking about, archetypes busting through people's psyches and dominating their lives, that's what's happening to him, he just doesn't recognize it. And it's very clear to people looking in, who study this, have any conception of Jungian stuff, it's like a very predictable, he's got an inflamed ego, he has figured out a way to subvert the system for personal game, but also attention. And I think the danger with something like him is is that his theories may be a bridge to more deeper levels of introspection that lead to what you're talking about, which is the kind of spiritual or psychic pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, which you have to have if you wanna do anything in life.

That is the truth, you have to have that.

A buddy summed it up the other day. He was talking to his landlord and his landlord had said, he's like, what do you say, America is a quicksand.

Quicksand.

Yeah, America is quicksand. And that's exactly true. And more so I think in cities like New York and LA.

For sure.

Or you are just constantly, you have to pull yourself up constantly.

And I think that's a cultural mechanism that I think it's easy to point at and say that yes, take personal responsibility. The reason I think he gets a lot of backlash from communities that are kind of marginalized or just aren't white men, is 'cause that's not really how shit works. Like I've known enough people from enough backgrounds that like, that's not how the world doesn't work the way that we experience the world is white men. Our bad luck, and people don't wanna hear this shit, is bad luck and it sucks and it's suffering and it doesn't mean it's any lesser or greater, but we're not in as bad a position as some people who don't look like us or don't have.

Even if we're poor, even if we're poor white men, we're still at a disadvantage relative to other people. Now, if you're poor, if you're in a lower economic stratum or you're in a regular kind of middle management job, I get why that shit resonates to me. I think it's just a much more kind of filtered and distilled version, not distilled filtered out version of some of the more meaty stuff, which is like, you know, investigate what the fuck is really going on with yourself. Don't take my word for it. I don't have simple rules. If there were 12 simple rules, trust me when I say Jordan Peterson wouldn't have been the first person to come up with them.

You know what I mean? He's smart, but he's not the smartest person who's ever lived, like, I don't view some of his stances as culturally helpful, I guess. I think this is gonna be-

See, I think that it's, I think it's-

Yeah, it's helping people. It is helping people. I mean-

I think it's gonna, I think a lot of people that are on the fence with their life. Like, I mean, I had this heated conversation with some friends yesterday because they were like, you're not looking at the big picture. And I'm like, I am looking at the goddamn big picture. Like, I am looking at the goddamn big picture. And, and if, you know, the part of like everybody wanting equality versus fairness, and I believe that it's, it's really it comes down, it comes down to fairness more than equality. And I was on a job and I was, somehow it came up about people missing arms, you know?

Okay.

And I was like, yeah, they're not equal to us. As a joke, not like in a mean way, but like to kind of just, you know, like play with the room a little bit. And they were like, they were disgusted with me. I was like, no, really, like, let me point this out. We have arms and they don't. That isn't the same as-

Yeah, it's not equal.

It is not equal. Like an apple is not an orange. They are not equal. They are still fruit. They're still great. They're still amazing. But we have to be fair rather than saying, oh, we're equal because we're not, because we need to help them more. Like in different areas, we need to help them get something off the shelf to be like, well, we're equal. No, because they also see the world in a way that we don't, which I think is, and you know, it creates an inequality and imbalance. So I have respect for recognizing the differences of us rather than saying like, we're all born equal. And it's like, no, actually I kind of like that we're not all born equal, that we're all born differently.

But like what I have as an advantage, and I've said this since the beginning of my podcast, what I have is an advantage. I would love to be able to come to you and say, hey, you have this and I don't. And I have this and you don't. Can we trade?

Yeah, of course.

That's fairness. That's not equality. That's fairness.

So, I mean, that's--

And that's kind-heartedness. And that's--

There's two ways to do this, right? There's two ways to look at fairness. And I'm only gonna bring up cryptocurrency for the mechanism.

Oh my God.

No, no, only, please. My audience hates it enough. They hate it enough. I'm only gonna bring it up for the mechanism regarding trust. So fairness implies some level of trust in exchange, right? I have to trust that you are-- I'm not chilling cryptocurrency. I just wanna show you that there's two ways to do it. One is I can trust you based on our experiences that you're not someone who's gonna rip me off. And you can trust the same if we're doing an exchange. The other way is to guarantee that we don't have to trust each other 'cause it's independently verified by a group of other people at the same time.

So those are two unique paths towards one is trust less. There's literally no trust involved. We don't have to trust each other. So we have 100% confidence. One is 100% trust. We've gotten to know each other and we trust each other. I don't think one is more valid than the other, but I think in certain instances, one is more applicable and valid than the other. And I don't know that when we're dealing with people, fairness and equality are terms that are well-defined enough, that when Jordan Peter says things aren't equal, he's also dog-wistling to people that like, "Oh, there's no such thing as white privilege."

Well, that's ridiculous.

See, that's the thing. I don't wanna get into that because that--

But you have to with some regard if you--

I'm not, but the dialogue that I'm focused on has less to do with that because there's always gonna be that. There's always somebody who does feel superior in different ways regardless. There's always somebody that's playing the superior card and there's always someone playing the victim. I don't want that for myself. I don't want that for my audience. What I wanna do and the people I'm around is I wanna focus on how could we become stronger as a group. And you know my business model, I wanna have it equal, I want it to be fair, like the whole pay structure and we have myself and two people now on my team, right?

And do you know how hard this is? This is like more possible, almost.

It's one of the fucking hardest things. We have discussions all the time. You know what's really funny too is that we'll do a job and we'll get a message from Taylor saying I think you should get paid more. You know what I'm like, no, no, no, 'cause I wanna have it as like this equal thing and she's like, no, I really don't think this is fair. It has nothing to do about equality or anything like that. It comes down to fairness. And then we were like, well how do we wage fairness? And they were like, well, is it effort putting in? Is it results? Is that, so I get what you're saying. I totally get what you're saying and your analogy that you used of like, you know, there's two ways.

Either I trust you or we have this other way. At the end of the day, it's still all very ambiguous. Like trust is ambiguous because you have to trust it. You have to look at the person eye to eye and be like, is this really a fair thing? Like I'm working on a gallery show, right? And, you know, a printer came to me kind of like started the whole thing. And his rates were cheaper than my previous rates and that's why I went to this printer because of this similar quality or, you know,

Capitalist asshole. - What's that?

'Cause you're a capitalist asshole.

Well, here's the thing. Yeah, there's an element of it because well, when I went to meet with him, he wanted to, he wanted me to pay a wholesale for the prints or retail for the prints. And then he wanted to, he wanted 30% of the profits and he wanted me to like, promote him.

What? - Exactly. So then I was like, this seems off. So then I went to, and I started looking at other printers and I found like this one in Brooklyn that I'm meeting with tomorrow where his rates are half and he doesn't give a shit about this other stuff. So it, I don't know. I think that like, it's a constant negotiation 'cause someone's always gonna try to rip you off and someone's always gonna try.

See, that's the, here's the thing. It seems like someone's always trying to rip you off but obviously there are people like you. I try to be one of these people who make sure things are fair and I think that's also born out of the sense that some things aren't fair that could be fair. There are some things in life that people might not deem as fair. Maybe it's not fair that everyone dies.

Dude, I remember my mom saying to me when I was a kid, she says, "Michael, life is not fair." And I'm like, that was the meanest thing you can say.

I wouldn't say that to my kid.

I was like seven.

Yeah, I wouldn't say, I mean, I understand the logic behind it and it could be construed as maybe this is a comforting thing to say. Like it's just get used to it, it's not a big deal. But, I mean, I don't think that life is unfair but I think that doesn't mean that there are unfair things, that unfair things don't happen in life. That is clear, right? But I think overall, like there is a sense of order, no matter how chaotic things are, that this shit is happening for a reason. This is my underlying protocol in life. It feels like that to me. I'm not saying this is the way it is. So fairness again, yes, it's nebulous but there are clear examples in society where people have less advantages than others and it's not an equality thing.

It's just like, that's not fair, that's unfair. And we can see-- the whole game is that we wanna make things fair.

Yes.

You know, like, I mean, I'm struggling with this. And just like, I've been struggling with it because I've been trying to build my business off of it.

Yeah, man.

And there are, you know, there's been people that have reached out to me that have much more experience that want to like work with me and I'm like, you know, I'm working with the people that I'm working with and I love them and I'm not gonna do this. And there's like, am I shooting myself because am I not being fair to myself because I can have someone with six times the experience. You know, all this stupid shit. And it's like, at the end of the day, it's like, we all have to, I don't know, man. It's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, like, I feel like I'm saying, like I'm coming off as mean or something like that.

You're not coming off as mean. These are normal questions, whether it's a building a business or relationships or career paths or just life decisions. Like, these are things that people have to weigh against each other and-

And I think as somebody who's like promoting, like really, not even just promoting it, talking it, but it's like, I'm walking the fucking walk.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'm doing the best I can and we get into like, this team has been like an incredible experience for me because we'll be doing a, we did the, okay, this hairstyles is like, hey, Michael, like I did some stuff like this when I was in LA. He's out here and he's like, I made these wigs and he made them out of leather.

Cool.

And then we're like, okay, cool. Like, when I get back to town, we'll shoot these and then we showed somebody on my team and then she's like, well, you need to get an African-American model or-

Oh, yeah, you told me about this.

Yeah, and I'm like, okay, these guys are French. Like, I get it, but it's like, it's this whole ordeal and I just, like, I want to, you know, like I'm trying to, but I'm also dealing with the politics of a system that's, like, bigger than me and I'm trying to be fair and then, like, I bring it up to people and they're like, well, why would we, now it's, it's the whole thing, I don't even want this podcast released next.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause I'm in the middle of, like, all of this stuff where it's like, I agree, this should be a personal color. I also agree that if we do that, it starts to look, like you're now you're just being coming tribal or you're doing this thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And everybody has a viewpoint on different sides and you're like, well, what is the fair way? What is the right way?

Well, that's where I think the inner sense of doing what you think is right based not on just your ego, but your life experience and intuitively what feels correct is about as good as you can do and sometimes it also, like, truthfully, man, like, listen, there have been times where what felt like the right thing to do was very much the wrong thing to do and I've had to acknowledge that in several instances, like, if you've ever made a very shitty decision, at one point, you probably thought, this is a really good decision. So to be able to acknowledge that and look at different areas of your life that can be tweaked is not an easy process and unfortunately, most people don't have answers for you that will solve any specific--

No, there are no answers.

No, it's for you to figure out and try different things and like, you're certainly not coming off as mean or--

No, I think it's, I just feel bad for the people that, like, all the people around me that work with 'cause I haven't been doing podcasts because it's like, I don't wanna, you know, like, I was on a, there's another project where we brought in somebody and we did the shoot for a client and the client then brought it to their friend and it was, like, so critical about the model and it had something to do with, you can tell, you can tell by looking at a portion of the, of the, it was like, like an important, see, I can't, I have to dance around the shicks. I don't wanna like, call anybody out. But you can tell that person didn't have a lot of money.

Right.

'Cause they weren't moisturizing their skin well.

Okay, okay.

And there's no way to Photoshop this any, any different. And so they're trying to sell, like, very expensive things on somebody who, part of their body is in poverty.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And their friend is like, well, you fucked that one up to the person and so now I look like an ass because we were trying to get somebody, we were trying to be progressive. But it's like the friend of their client is correct because it's like, they're not, they don't give a shit about being progressive. They just wanna like, you know what I mean? Like, it's so tricky. I think it's like tricky because now I'm working more and more with the commercial world and with the commercial world. It's like you, you know, I'm doing a shoot, like a, like a quote unquote sexy shoot, right? And then the girl has like stretch marks and then it's like, well, do we show that and promote that?

Well, I'm not gonna be able to make money off that because I'm not gonna have clients that are like people like no clients want that. - I see what you're saying.

They don't want that. You don't go to Times Square and you don't see people like running toward models with stretch marks. It's, you know what I mean? So it's like, if you wanna be progressive and be fair, you really have to do it in the art world, but even in the art world, very few people want these things on their wall, you know? So it's like, yeah, then you do it for yourself, but it's like, okay, well, you, I don't know if this makes sense.

It does make sense, I know what I know what you're saying.

It's a lot harder.

This is truthfully something since I know you've been dealing with though, which is this push and pull. And I think this is just not uncommon for people who are creative and artistic.

And progressive and trying to be fair.

Well, and also trying to make a business out of it and make a living out of it. That's where the friction comes from.

I don't have any good answers, what I can--

No one will have good answers.

No, and I don't think there will be a satisfactory answer from someone else, but it does sound like, you know, you just gotta do what you think is right. I think is probably--

I agree, but you know what ends up happening. So I agree, what happens is that you're gonna, and I guess this is like where I just have to accept this part, you're going to get heat no matter what you do or say.

Oh yeah.

You're going to get heat like--

But do you care about that so much?

People say do you care about that, but when you experience heat--

I haven't experienced heat.

When you're experiencing heat where people are saying that you're sexist, that you're sizes, that you're racist, that you're like all of these things--

I get it.

Because people don't see this in this one photo, and they don't see this. Like when I went down to Peru, or to Ecuador, and I went with a friend and we went to this like, this bath, or this spa, or lagoon, and it's like a volcanic lagoon, and so they have you put black tar, or what do you call it? It's--

Mud?

Mud, on your body. And so a friend put that on her face, and I was like posting on Instagram images from it. And it's because you're putting black mud on your face, or volcanic mud on your face.

No, you can't worry about that, man.

No, somebody comes after me.

But that's cool, man, that's their thing.

And they start doing black face right now.

That's their thing, that's their thing.

And they're bringing their friends in on it.

That's their thing.

You have people that are like, but it's like, when you say that, but imagine if somebody went to you--

They do, people comment, listen.

I'm getting a lot more, I'm--

You have a way more exposure than me, but what I'm telling you is this, if you're doing what you're doing, you need to, a, expect that. And like seriously though, like, and I know people have trouble with this, and I'm not saying that I wouldn't. What I'm saying is that you legitimately cannot be concerned with that. If the reason you shouldn't be concerned with it is if it's like, you did it for that reason.

Yeah.

That's the only time you should be, it dawned on me like, I remember like a few weeks ago, 'cause I've been basically MIA from most of my friend relationships, 'cause I've just been taking care of my kid for the past six months, and like, I'm like, you know what? I bet a lot of people think I'm an asshole right now, like, 'cause they've reached out, and I haven't gotten back to them ever, and like, I bet people think I'm an asshole, I'm like, am I an asshole? I'm like, nope, I've just been really busy. It's like, should I be upset that people think I'm an asshole? I'm like, well, it's not great, but like, I can't worry about that shit.

And like, that's really like, if you're doing things from a place that you know are innocent and not bad, like you can take feedback, and you can be like, well, next time I'm in mud, maybe I won't do it, and that sucks, but like--

But no, that's the thing, that's, I get what you say.

It doesn't matter, it's not worth it. You're not a mud-faced photographer.

No, but I was doing my travel photography.

That's fine. - And the fact that like, well, don't show this part of your travel because--

You show whatever you want, man.

I know, but it's like, I think the problem is, is that it's just that everybody's outraged, and this gonna back into that part that I do like about Jordan is that, and the handful of others say the same thing, it's like, make your own goddamn bed. Quit going out there and try to save the goddamn world.

I agree with this. - Try to make your own goddamn bed. - I know.

And that's where it was like resonating with me. It's telling people like this like, crazed America. But that can be callous if applied to you harshly. That's the thing is-- - It can be, but there is an element where it's like, guys, make your own fucking bed quick jumping on and trying to find this girl has stretch marks. That's gross, this girl doesn't, that's terrible. This girl is this, this guys, this is this. There's so many, like, people all wanna be represented in your work as well. - Some people also just don't, most people I think you would find don't really mind stretch marks or any physical--

Yeah, like a girl-- - Yeah, like no one really cares.

Exactly, no one really cares, but marketing, that's not what the ideal is in this culture. So I think you're bound to experience that type of friction in your thing, but you can't let that shit get to. You're making the conscious decision to work in an industry that now the evolution of it is that you're going to be exposed to that type of criticism.

Well, 'cause here's the thing is that like, you know, I'm just making money off of art. And so I'm working with some other friends on this project, I don't know if I told you about this one, I can't get too into too many details, but a buddy bought a business from another friend and it involves a lot of artists. And so, you know, he's like, what do I do with this brand and this package and we're working on this idea that I have. And as an artist, you have four ways that you can go, okay? Number one is you become a hobbyist and you just do it for fun. Number two, your counterculture and you're doing it to like tell the world to fuck off.

Number three, you become a fine artist and you go in the gallery world and you sell it that way. Or number five, you go into commercial art.

You're four, four.

Or four, yeah, four, you go to commercial work. So you go commercial work, you do mass appeal or then you do gallery, which is niche appeal. And then you do hobbyist, which is nobody. And then the other is like, fuck everybody. You know, you're really doing it just for yourself. And so we're trying to create a pathway for people to go in each of those and also for all of them to work together and collect as a group.

I think I'm in the fuck off category.

Yeah, and I was in the fuck off category, but it's like, you know, then you gotta go find another job. So if you wanna make money while making art, it's like, well, then you're gonna have to go find something else and it's like, well, I'm good at photography and I'm good at art, good at art direction. I'm good at ideas, so this makes sense that I'd still work in this field. So as I'm, you know, like, I think some people can balance between all of them, I think that, but you tend to be stronger in certain areas. For me, it's gonna be fine art and commercial. And I'm just learning that balance right now because I know that it's happening.

You know, it's happening. And that's why the clients are coming to be more now is because they want me to do what I do.

So why do you think you were depressed?

I was depressed because I came back and I was living with someone else's energy and that dude would be--

Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, I think it's good that you recognize that because I don't, I mean, I'm not someone who I would say is prone to depression. I can count the times I've been depressed on one hand easily. It's been that infrequent.

That's not fair. You need to do, you need to, like, balance that out and you need to do a lot more podcasts with depressed people while they're depressed. You need to go--

Oh, I am not--

I'm familiar with you.

I'm just saying, like, I know you're fucking with me. I'm just saying, like, depression is a serious topic for a lot of people because I think the few times I have been depressed, it is what you described. It's something that is all encompassing to varying degrees depending on how deep you are in it, but that's not something to be taken lightly in that sense. But it is important to be able to make the distinction between whether it's your depression or you're just picking up on a bad situation, whether it's a roommate, a place, a situation, a relationship, that's super important because I think-- - Oh, yeah.

I mean, for me, like, I recognize that the holidays is, like, a really tough time for me. I go through, like, massive depression. My birthday is the big kick-off of it, like, planning before. So, already-- - When is your birthday?

December 8th. So, already, we're making plans to prepare for it so that I'm not-- - Why do you not like your birthday?

It's not that I don't like my birthday--

We need to press on it, so--

Well, like, it's a season.

No, December.

I mean, if you-- my family, my mom's birthday is November 11th and then my uncle's was, like, somewhere toward the end of November, then it's mine, December 8th.

11/11.

Then my dad's is December 31st.

Oh, wow, you're all genius.

My grandma's is January 7th. My sister's January 8th.

Hey, the whole winter wonderland.

And it's just, and then Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's Valentine's. It's this big package of-- - Drama.

Yeah, Halloween is, like, the kick-off of the whole thing. So, the birthday is right in the middle of this--

I get it. - Of the storm, and it's, like, a long winter. You just know that you're gonna be in, like, for a long winter, you gotta brace yourself, and that's when it's, like, you start getting a little dizzy.

Yeah, I don't know, man.

Well, this one was more recent, though. The weather's been nice.

Or-- - Weather's shit compared to LA, man.

Well, go compared to LA. LA is like a weird nexus of non-real weather. It doesn't-- - It's so nice.

It is nice. I remember going there and people were complaining, it was cold, I'm like, it's 60 something degrees.

I was walking around in shorts and Spokane in the winter, you know, like, it was snowing, I was wearing shorts, I was like, I'm warm, I was fine. Like, straight up fucking Wim Hof was, like, giving me thumbs up. Like, I was, like, on it, right? I come back to New York, it's fucking icy, it's cold, I'm walking around in shorts. I get out to LA, I swear to God, and I was doing this for, like, I would wear shorts every single day. Friends were making fun of me. They were like, what are you gonna do? You can move to LA and-- - You're a shorts guy, yeah.

I would get, I got to LA within two days I had to wear pants, that was too cold.

It's the psychic energy of the people thinking that it's cold, and-- - There's something else though, it's like light, like photographers, we all talk about light in different cities. So, like, you talk to any photographer, they'll go to a city, and they'll be like, and even within a neighborhood, they're like, the light's different here. And we'll talk about, like, texture and quality of light. And it's just hitting you. Like, if you stand in a different city, a different part of the city-- - I believe it.

In Venice, it's completely different. In Venice, Santa Monica, Marina del Rey, completely different than downtown or Silver Lake. So, you know, in the light here, versus in Chicago, completely different.

It's interesting. - So, I think that there's something to do with, there are, like, atmospheric energy things that we haven't figured out how to measure yet.

Oh, for sure, I would-- - That are, 'cause why would I suddenly get cold in LA when I'm totally fine everywhere else in, like, icy, frigid temperatures?

I think it's-- - I can't say it's because of the people.

It could be, though. It could be the collective consciousness of that particular area. - People are rejecting me. No, but when we say-- - I'm not saying you're immediate people. - How many people are, like, looking me on the train, like, "What the fuck are you doing, asshole?"

I'm not saying the dozens of people looking at you. I'm saying the millions of people being, like, it's chilly that having an influence on you. That-- - You know when they were doing that over there, they were, like, it's freezing. - What do you mean?

When I was in New York, they were all, like--

No, I'm not, but I'm not saying related to you. I'm saying the environment in general.

Oh, you're saying that they're--

You can buck a trend as an individual. That is easy to do, but to succumb to the swarms or hive minds thing is also, you know, that could have an influence.

So maybe that, yeah, maybe that's, like, a portion of the, I get what you're saying.

That's what I'm saying. 'Cause I think that shit has more to do with it than--

That's containing part of the ether or the-- Maybe it's like-- - Yeah.

'Cause, like, you know, when I was talking to a friend the other day, I don't know if I talk to him for this on the podcast or not, but it's like, you know, when you see a storm rolling in, like immediately, well, here comes the bad thoughts.

Oh, really? I love people get-- - A lot of people get storms.

People get, like, sad and depressed when it starts getting cold and rainy and--

Cold and rainy, but I love summer storms.

Summer storms are great, but if you know that it's, like, already chilly and there's a storm coming, it's gonna rain in New York, you have to, like, it's gonna be, like, wet. People are gonna, like, they're gonna be, so people will get depressed. It's like, here comes the bad thoughts. Like, no one ever says, they say, "Here comes the storm." No one says, "Here comes the bad thoughts," because that's real.

So, I'm almost wondering if since we don't quite understand, like, we don't understand a lot about our air, we really don't. We don't understand, like, a lot of this, so what if this is containing thoughts? What if this is containing thoughts?

I would think it would be weird if it didn't. I would think that if we just assume, knowing, you know, it sounds crackpot, but we know that we can shoot invisible beams of energy out from places and get to other places. We all have phones and shit now that do that. I don't think it's that crazy that we would have other things embedded, whether informational, or organic, or otherwise, ethereal, that that existing would be some weird fucking thing. It makes a lot of sense to me. So, anything else you wanna talk about?

No, I'm even gonna think. What are you, what are you gonna talk about? You wanna talk about crypto now?

No, I don't wanna talk about crypto, because--

I don't want you to talk about crypto. I want you to shut up about crypto, and I want you to sit down with me next to me on a computer and show me how to actually do--

I can do that. I don't have my computer with me, but I can show you how to do that.

Yeah, like that's the thing that I'm like, I don't give a shit, you can talk all you want. It's amazing, it's great. Oh, look at this.

I was just telling my sister--

I know a Lampert, I'm crypto.

I love it.

You know where you're like, you should change it into crypto, man.

I did, I rebranded myself. I have no Lampert.com/gurucrypto/--

Do you really?

No, Michael--

I feel like you would, because--

Here's the thing, here's the thing, here's what you need to understand about my positioning as a crypto person who's helping people. First of all, I still put out free shit about this every single week, at least a few times, not because I'm trying to drum up some weird salesman business thing, because when you buy your Bitcoin, when I sit down with you and you get it and you just forget about it for a year or two, and then come back to it and you're like, "Oh shit, thanks Noah, that's what I'm doing it for. I'm not doing it to enrich myself or look like the smart guy."

No, that's totally fine. You know what I was driving me nuts that you jumped in. I actually, I did a podcast of Yoshi, you know that I can't run. Second podcast of Yoshi, you know I can't run. But I was like, yeah, at the time I was like, "What's going on with Noah? Is he ever going to snap out of this thing or what? He's alienating everybody."

I know, I know. But the part was, because I asked you, "How do I set this up?" And you were like, "Go to this server."

You made it so complicated. - No, I didn't.

Yes, you did.

Relative to how complicated this shit is to figure out on your own, I made it so easy. I was like, "Here's what, here's, let me explain to you why I did what I did. I really want to explain this because it's important and I think it's worthwhile. And if you haven't an understanding, you would understand why I did it." Okay. The reason I directed all of my close personal friends, as well as people who would ask me about it to the server, is it was a--

Discord server.

Discord server is because it was a public knowledge base. So if you had a question, like, what do I do--

I asked a question in there and you were like asked us in a different channel.

Yeah, in the crypto question you said, because, for this very reason, because it's a repository of questions now. So when someone new joins, I can say, "Hey, go through this. There's all these questions that you will probably have that you can see."

See, you didn't have this shit. You were just like--

I did. Okay, what you need to do is take the money and put it over here and you need to get bittrex or you need to get some--

Yes, but do you remember bittrex?

And here's what I say. Does someone else have to get Bitcoin? I say this. I say Coinbase.

Yeah, that's fine.

That's all I say. But then you're like, "You've got to lock it up in a locker."

First of all, first of all, first of all.

You have to make sure that you get it like--

No, no, no, no, no, listen.

You need to hire--

Menonine.

What I was saying is--

For this. - For this.

We were talking about it at the end of December, early January. What I was telling you to do is buy--

It was in November.

Was it November? Okay, it was November. Okay, listen.

Is it right after--

You fucking do this. If you would've just tolerated my bullshit and did exactly what I did, you would've done very well.

No, I did, but I dumped the money into Coinbase and then I lost a bunch of money.

'Cause you didn't do it. I told you, do you fucking idiot? This is my old point. I was trying to legitimately help my friends and family in a period where I'm like, holy shit. This is literally making stupid amounts of money for so many people. If I can just get 10% of people I know to do this, I don't, not that I'm gonna benefit from it.

Oh, 'cause it's a pyramid scheme.

It's not a pyramid scheme.

It's not a pyramid scheme.

No, it's not a pyramid scheme.

To do this thing.

No.

You're gonna make so much money with it.

I knew that--

They just get 10% of their money.

No, I knew that if people I knew bought something that I knew was gonna go up for a reason based on fundamentals, not based on pyramid scheme, that this would be a wise thing for anyone who had the ability to do that to do. So that kicked off the whole thing. Truth be told-- - How many of your 10 friends did it?

I'm, at the end I probably have close personal friends or family who heated my advice probably like 15, 20, like a good amount, like a pretty good amount.

Damn, you, good on your pyramid scheme.

Most-- - What was that company called?

What? - Amway.

Amway. No, no, no, no.

Lamp, way, lamp, way.

The thing is, is that it's obviously not a pyramid scheme. Everyone knows that. I've spoken about it enough. But the point is this is that it's very rare that we have opportunities to get such an asymmetric bet on something in life that really is backed by more than the idea that it maybe is fake money or real money. And if people are in a position where they are like eh, I could put 50 bucks, 100 bucks into this thing and just say bye bye to it, like oh my God, I'm never gonna see that again. That potentially can make an impact in their lives in the future. I don't know of anything else like that.

There's no savings account that you're gonna put your money into today that you're gonna wake up in five years.

Oh, there is something.

What? - It's called your education.

Yeah, your education, exactly. Good college debt, student debt, that's the way to go. So my point is this related to the cryptocurrency and all of this, now that I've thoroughly annoyed everyone.

That is me. - It's truth. No, and you're not the only one because I recognize, I put something up on Facebook about my consulting services once and I got really harsh feedback from someone I didn't even know. I'm like, how are you on my Facebook? I don't know who you are. And luckily-- - Oh, fuck that person.

Well, fuck that person, Royce. I didn't respond first. - That person's not me, so it doesn't matter what they say.

Right, but what I'm saying is I had people who had joined the server, done other things. They immediately came to my defense and were like, hey, like you ding dong, like if you're accusing him of being a Huxter, like you should at least know what he's doing, like I'm in there. It's not a scam, like this shit is going well because this is what he's doing. And the dude was trying to like cling to something that he wasn't being an asshole. And it's like, one of the things that the crypto thing got me is like, that's what I was talking about, like when people have criticisms or I'm alienating people.

At this point, I don't give a shit really about that because-- - That's a different kind of thing to not give a shit about.

Being called-- - Really, that's my reputation. That's my reputation. - Being called an Ist. You know, some kind of, and having an Istim because of your, that's different than being like--

I hear you, but in one regard it is, but in the other regard is that it's your character, it's how you view yourself being perceived by other people and knowing who you are as a person. So in that way, it's not like, I am sure there are plenty of people, I mean, I know there are, some people hit me up, they're like, I, you've turned a corner, you're now talking about shit that's unimportant, I don't care. And if I really like thought about it and I thought I was doing something wrong, that would bother me and I was just like, okay, that's fine, like, you know, that's cool. That's just like your opinion, man.

So I don't know. I mean, the crypto stuff to me is something that is gonna change a lot of people's lives and it already has.

You know who's gonna make a shit ton of money?

I don't know.

It's gonna be the person that makes something that is one step above Coinbase in terms of usability.

Just reminded me about something.

See if I peed it off.

Well, there's the zero X protocol that is a decentralized exchange, that Coinbase, there's high rumors that they're involved with zero X to run some type of DEX, a decentralized exchange, basically, rather than having all of the funds or something go through one thing, we go through each other like kind of like a map-sourish type of protocol. Anyway.

You killed it, I'm saying that. Maybe that's what you're talking about.

Yeah, there's a lot of those things out there, man. Like, that's why it's so interesting in this space.

I went to one and I'm like, it was like all in Chinese and it was like, well, that you told me to go to, and I'm like--

Binance, probably.

Yeah, and I'm like, I don't know what the fuck is going on here.

I know.

And the numbers were insane. It's like, and then you're like, oh, it's so simple. And I'm like, looking at videos on how to do this and it's like, I don't have time to learn this shit. You have to buy it like 0.000, 0.000, 2-bit point.

I'll sit down with you.

0.000, 3, 9, 7, Ethereum, 12, you know.

What the fuck is this shit, man?

So here's the thing, here's, let me give you a tip. Let me give you this tip.

Just the tip.

If you do just the tip here, if you do things, two orders, two magnitude of two order above what your threshold is in this space, you have a better chance than not of doing well. Most people do what you did when they see that shit and they're like, what the fuck is this? I don't care if you, you don't have to be the person who takes the time to figure it out. In this particular space, taking time or asking someone who knows what's going on.

Dude, I asked a buddy. I said, hey, what'd I say? I said, hey, I'm gonna like, I have some questions. Maybe I can come visit you.

Yes.

And the friend was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I got busy. I was like, hey, I could do a call. And then the person was like, I'm--

Was that me?

Was you, asshole?

Okay.

Or you can come all the way up here and I'll tell you-- - Here's the thing.

Let's do a call.

Here's the thing.

No, I'm busy, fucker.

Here's, I was taking care of my son.

And the call means your time.

When am I supposed to call? You're gonna feel bad in a little bit.

Same time when I would've come up there.

No, dude.

Such an asshole.

Please. My point is I'm willing to help anyone who has any questions.

Unless it's on a call. You have to go drive all the way.

No, I did lots of calls with people. I was just like, be cool if you came and hang out 'cause you could get more out of the experience. One of my best friends in the world, he'll attest to this fact. I said the same shit to him. He got mad at me for a month and a half. He got offended similarly to you, came up there and was like, oh yeah, I see why I had to come up here. It's like, oh, I get it. Like, I get it. If I would've done it the other way, it would've been wasting both of our time. True story. With that, let's wrap this up, buddy. What is your favorite color?

Are you doing this?

Yes.

My favorite color is Noah.

What's your favorite number?

Noah.

Let's see. What is your favorite animal?

Remember when your podcast, you had 10 questions or something?

Three. And they're the same three.

No, no, no, no. When you first started it.

Oh yeah.

And you had questions written out for me and I felt like I was on a fucking cage.

Did I?

Yeah, remember and I gave you shit.

No, I didn't have questions from now. That's not true. I remember you being annoyed, but I didn't have questions.

No, you had questions. Go back and listen to it.

No, you thought I did. I was just asking you questions and you felt it was an interview. That's what I remember specifically. I didn't have questions written out.

No, I didn't have questions down.

You didn't have questions. I'm just really good at asking questions. It seems like a road to advance.

No, you're really bad at it at the time. You're better now. Your conversation. I will give you this. I'll give you shit all the time. You are much better. Like you used to like dominate conversations.

I know.

To a point of like...

I know I miss, I know.

And you used to only like up to like an hour ago. You'd only talk about crypto.

People really got upset about that. Fuck, I don't care. It's fucking cool and it's smart and it's gonna change people's lives for the better if you know what you're doing. Worth it, fucking, I don't care. That's what I'm saying. Like, I'm not gonna turn this into a cryptocurrency podcast, but although I will say there is no, no. There's a culture.

You brought Ethan Nick's turn on. You're like, oh, I was talking about crypto.

Yeah, yeah, no shit. Those were great. Okay, first of all, that conversation was less about crypto. It was more about what do you do? And I'm sure a lot of people can... (laughing) That's not what was happening.

That's what you said.

Basically, but I was like, what do you do in a situation where you know you have potentially a limited opportunity to change the financial outlook of related to your responsibilities?

All you have to do, Ethan, is sign up on this one.

Yeah, use my referral link. So I get a percentage of what you do. No, like that, and I think that was a valuable question. Listen, I...

I didn't plan on coming on here to just bust your balls.

It's just always turned out that way. It's pretty easy. I'm easy to take the piss out of. All right, you answered the question, what's a practical tip that's helped you in your life that you can share with people?

Being friends with Noah. (laughing)

Yeah, I agree with that one.

I'll agree with that one too. I mean, you've been a good friend.

All right, man. Thanks for coming on.

Yeah, thanks for coming on mine.

Yeah, oh yeah, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's whatever.

Yeah, we know we're both gonna release this one.

Hey, thanks for listing people.

This is Walking Synchro Home, Michael's, no, I've been. Bye.

Forgo.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Thank you for listening to that episode, alongie, but a goodie. You can also, I think Michael's release, I don't think. Michael is releasing this on his own podcast, Walking Home, which is on the mine pod network. (laughing) I haven't done that a long time. So if you wanna listen to that, you probably have different stuff to say at the beginning, not related to spiritual materialism and spiritual politics. So maybe go check that out. Go check out Michael@studiodonovin.com. He's got a ton of shit always going on. It's, his art is cool. Go check it out. All right, that's it for this week. I am going to the beach next week, but I will be doing podcasts there because it's important that I put out these podcasts, not just for you guys or you listening, you guys.

You listening, the person listening, I'm talking to you. It's not just important that I put out podcasts for you. It's important for me too. So I'm gonna do that. So thank you for listening. A reminder, Patreon, Patreon, crypto, same, blah, bibbly, blah, blah, whatever. I will see you next week.