Red Pill, Blue Pill, Everyone Gets A Pill with Michael Donovan

This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week features the return of Michael Donovan Michael. What is there to say? An incredible photographer, artist, provocateur. I believe he uses the owner to describe himself at this point in this episode. This is a really, really interesting episode. I've made a deal with Michael not to use any superlatives. I think I've already used the word awesome, but he's talented, he's insightful. He has a unique mind. A lot of people these days, it's easy myself including get caught up in groupthink, can get caught up in our filter bubbles, our narratives that are pitched by other people.

I think we can all agree at this point that shit's getting a little weird. Many of us have noticed within our loosely defined social groups online and off that some people tend to deviate into areas that you wouldn't expect them to do. A lot of this conversation has to do with some of the information that Michael has been getting involved with. We didn't get too much into the red pill stuff, we didn't get too much into the alt right stuff because I don't really think Michael is alt right, he wouldn't refer to himself as that. I think he would really subscribe to most of the ideologies of that camp.

That said, he's found certain aspects of it engaging and somewhat helpful for himself and we go into some of these things. I originally reached out to Michael, you'll hear a few days ago because I saw a post that he made on Instagram and it was like overreaction and getting offended is so 2018. I'm done with it. This type of takes all these interest me because I think there's two aspects of this and we get into this a lot in this podcast which is one, yes, some people really do need to chill out and get less offended at everything because if that's your identity that you're offended about everything, that's just as bad as being one who is doing the offending.

There's an aspect of that but there's also a more subtle and nuanced take on it which is yes, let's not be so thin skin that every single thing makes us upset but let's also try to recognize where people are coming from, their perspectives, what have shaped those, what experiences have led to them thinking the way they do and potentially taking offense is something that maybe you and I don't take offense at and this starts to get into identity politics and identities in general which is the source of a lot of this consternation and get very complicated and when you start bringing in emotions and family and friends and familial bonds into this stuff, it can get even more complicated.

So a lot of this episode has to deal, is dealing with these types of issues, right? We talk about abortion in this episode, it's that type of episode, it is very worldly and kind of what is going on with our society, a lot of this has to do with kind of the rise of populism and kind of demagoguery and using a tried and true formula which is blaming other people for systemic problems. It's much easier to scapegoat liberals, conservatives, immigrants, Jews, black people, it doesn't matter, it's easier to blame the other person than to look at yourself or a system in which you find yourself and say how do we go about changing this.

So really what this episode is about I think it initially started that Michael and I kind of wanted to debate about certain issues that we felt strongly about but what emerged through this podcast is that we kind of share the same view on things that what is needed now more than anything is dialogue, especially between people who have opposing viewpoints, that's critically important and this could be for anything this could be in the spiritual world, the political world, the social world, whatever it is, this is something that has to happen and I don't say it has to happen because I'd like it to happen or it'd be cool if it happened.

If it doesn't happen, the chances of everything kind of breaking apart the fabric of society and us not being able to get our shit together to make this planet inhabitable and a wonderful place to live, those chances go down that we won't be able to do that or they go down that we will be able to do it. The chances go up that we won't be able to do it. It's very encouraging for me that both of us could have gone into this conversation expecting it to be somewhat confrontational, not in a negative way but have opposing viewpoints but that we kind of agree that we need to be talking about this stuff more than just reacting.

You'll hear in the episode, I try to catch Michael like he tries to catch me being hypocritical at times, right? We're getting upset about something that we shouldn't be getting upset, we're overreacting to something that maybe we shouldn't be, Michael several times uses the words disgusting and gross and I was like that's you being offended and he's like no it's not and we get into the kind of semantic debate that goes on with that but what I will say is Michael is a very thoughtful, mindful person. I see a lot of people getting, I feel like Jordan Peterson is the gateway drug for a lot of people because he's rational, quote unquote, he is using facts, quote unquote and there are facts, they're just cherry pick backs and he sells this story of oppression and identity politics and cultural Marxism that if you dig a little bit deeper, you will see is an utter and complete fabrication.

It is not based on the perspectives of the global community and multiple people, races, ethnicities, genders. It's based on his perspective and that's fine, we don't expect people to encompass all perspectives in the world. There's too many but when something is presented as gospel and it can lead people down a path to questioning what's going on, why are immigrants taking our jobs, why are women fighting for equal rights when they're not equal, these things are very pernicious, they're very dangerous ideas and they're proliferating now more than ever as all ideas are, right? And one key component of this conversation is this idea of the patriarchy and my contention is the patriarchy of course exists, it's identifiable, it's a systems rules and laws that are codified and kind of carried out as the dominant ruling culture and Michael has a hard time with the word patriarchy because he thinks too many people hear the word and thinks that all men are bad, fuck men, it's time for women.

And well some of that is true, of course not all men are bad. He also thinks and he references the episode that me, Sean, Cass, and Jen did, which he describes as a circle jerk, where it's basically us just kind of blaming white men for all of the problems of society. And I think yes, when we use generalizations like while white men suck and white men have been fucking it up, it can get lost, of course we don't mean all white men, I'm a white man, I think I do things that fuck things up, but I don't think I've set up the institutions that have kind of ruined the world. But it's hard to deny the fact that patriarchy and patriarchal systems have ruled the world for at least a few millennia, probably more.

And we know there are matriarchal societies that predated patriarchal societies and they had flaws too, it's not that one is better than the other, I think what we're looking for is a harmonious balance. And when we have these antagonistic clashes between people, it gets very difficult to find that harmony. So that's a lot of what this episode is about. I want to point out one point Michael asked me to correct this, we were talking about Natalie Nguyen, who's also known as ContraPoints, who's a wonderful transgender woman who really has helped me understand a lot of these issues that I didn't know at all, especially the pronouns thing, it can sound crazy, it can sound normal, it can sound, it means spirited.

Any of these things can come up, but if you're looking for an in-road into thoughtful, intellectual, but compassionate dialogue about transgender issues, Natalie is amazing. So he said at this point that she, in this episode, that she was saying that if you don't have sex with a transgender person, you're transphobic. And I was like, there's no way she said that, that's impossible. She's not that type of person. I know there are people in the trans world who think like that and act like that, but I know that she is not one of those people. So it's important that we make the distinctions between the voices that are really trying to do some thoughtful, helpful work, and those that are really just kind of adding more noise to the situation.

So he wanted to correct himself and say that it wasn't her, which I knew. But anyway, I'm not going to ramble on too much on this episode because it is very long. This is a record-length synchronicity. It was so long that I even baked a loaf of bread during the episode, literally. Put it in the oven, baked it, took it out. So I hope you enjoyed it. It's a little bit different than what you will normally hear on synchronicity, but I think very much in tune with kind of the cultural climate that's going on, which is not any different than our spiritual climate, right? It's the same fucking thing.

So go check out Michael on Instagram, V. Michael Donovan, studio Donovan.com. His art is awesome. I've spoken about it plenty of times. You don't have to take my word for it. Go check it out. Go get some prints of his if you dig him. And you talk to him. He's a very engaging person and is open-minded. He's open-minded and stubborn, my favorite type of person, right? How's that first? Super relative. Michael. That's it. Let's get to the episode. Alright, without further ado, here is Michael Donovan. What's up, dude? What's going on, dude? What's going on, dude? Dude, somebody just try to do a podcast with me, try to interview me for his.

Yeah. He did a call call. What does that mean? And the call kept dropping. Oh, a video? You like... No, just a call. Just a call. There's just something's happening in L.A. like a lot of people like our phones keep dropping calls lately or getting bad just call service. So I'd like, you know, because it's an artist one, so I'd like talk for, it's like straight up like talk for a couple of minutes, kind of thing, you know? And then you'd be like, oh, I lost you like halfway through me. I've had that happen on a few of these. It's very, very frustrating. Yeah. I'm like, dude, I can't. I'm like, just when you get your audio sorted, give me a call.

Yeah. I feel you. Well, you sound pretty good. Huh? You sound pretty good. Quality. Yeah, you sound good quality too. Good. Good quality to you too, son. Good quality. Uh, I'm ready to get started. Okay. Thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for having me, man. Now red pill me. I'm not going to red pill you. Tell me. I'm curious. You know what I can't think I really would look, I can't wait for is listening to the intro of this podcast. I know. You know, it's funny. It's so funny, Michael. It's very funny. I was thinking the same thing earlier today. I'm like the intro for this podcast is probably going to be the most interesting thing in terms of me trying to figure out what I'm going to say about it.

Just anticipating, um, some of the conversation that we're going to have today. But enough lead up, man. Tell me. What the? Quick kick. Yeah. Yeah. Can you do me a favor and not call me awesome and amazing and a really cool, really cool man. I'm going to. I'm going to make sure I'm going to remove all of your adjectives that you use to describe people, talented or I'm going to use only those words and no, I'll come up with some other support. I'm sorry, but you should. You should. Just so that I can get offended. Okay. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. So tell me what has been going on. What's going on?

What have you been noticing? I love your mind. It's one of my favorite minds. I know. So what's going on? You love what? Your mind is one of my favorite minds that I know. I wasn't trying to have you just repeat that. I really didn't hear it. I believe that. I believe that. You just wanted to hear the praise again. Yeah. Um, okay. No. Okay. So obviously, because you called me yesterday at six thirty in the morning or some crazy ass time, um, because you had seen, I'm trying to pull it up. I forgot. I forgot it was six thirty year time. That's what she fair. I just assumed. You can be irresponsible assholes.

Everyone is like me and is just in my world. So that's your fault, really. Yeah. Pretty much. I do the opposite though because I call people at, um, at like late at night, like I'll be up at one in the morning and then I'll be like, I should call someone. Yeah. Yeah. So hold on. Let me find the actual post. Okay. Um, because I think that, okay. So this is what I posted. This is it. Black screen. Read it. Read it. Yeah. Yeah. Read it verbatim. Read it verbatim. Yes. So the black screen says being offended is so 2018 period. So that was the, the, the, the actual picture. Yeah. Um, and then underneath it.

So, so, and then, okay, sort of put that in context too. Uh, should I put that context or should I just go ahead and just read in the caption? No, put it in context. Yeah. Just in. Just in context. Explain your rationale. We all know what it is. We all, we all know what the fuck it is where everybody's like offended. Everybody's hurt. Everybody's crying. Everybody's upset. Everybody's like confused. Everybody's frustrated. Everybody's. Everybody's everybody. Everybody's everybody. And I can go deeper into the context. Like some of the situations that started to come up. Yeah. Um, that kind of ran into it, they're led into it, but we can probably, I'll probably just bring those up later.

Okay. Yeah. That's cool. But just sit in that shell, like we all have friends that are just either dealing with other people that are offended by them or they are just being shut down or, or we deal with it in our own lives and we, or we, we see friends or family members. Yeah. Fortunately, I don't have any family members like this, but I see friends that are just offended by everything. So it's just like, come the fuck on people. And I feel that the reason why putting it on there too is that, um, my audience typically for either my podcast or photography is the same group. It's photographers and artists and it's spiritualist and people in the psychedelic community.

It's just those four quadrants kind of come together. What a fun and rational and non-emotional group of people. You've cultivated my call. Yeah. Yeah. And it's cool because like one of the guys that follows me, like he works at the DMV and um, he commented, he just messaged me like a few days ago on something else, just like I really like your work, blah, blah, blah. And it made me look at like DMV people differently. It's like, yeah, they could be appreciating this stuff too. It's not like they are, you know what I mean? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, yeah. No, because it's, I always try to be nice to customer service reps or quote unquote deal, we try to, but we're all six to them.

Listen, I will say this, most nine out of my 10 interactions with customer service people, this has not always been the case. And this might just be for selfish reasons. I find that you just deal people deal with you better if you deal with them like humans, but not out of 10. I tried to go out of my way to be respectful because I realize the majority of their calls or interactions are with angry, impatient people. So I mean, I, I get what you're saying though, it definitely gives you an added perspective to know that. Yeah. I'm having a bad day. They're the easiest people to shit off. Of course.

Because I think that's the thing too. I think we all try to be nice to them. Not everybody does. And I can get into some, something funny, remind me at some point to talk about sushi in Beverly Hills. It's not what you think. It's not what you think at all, but anyway, it's where I went off on somebody who is not nice to somebody, nice, nice, anyways. So you get the gist of it, like, and within, so within the psychedelic and spiritual community, it's all like, we'll talk more about this, but it's all love and light. It's all a lot of it is a lot of it be in the moment. Oh, a lot of it. A big chunk of it.

Majority. It's a lot of like the majority. Let's say. Yeah, it's a lot of like, unpractical shit, like, okay, so I was having like, I moved out here and I was like burning through savings and, you know, like, I was just kind of frustrated with everything because it's like, I wasn't, this is a few months ago and I wasn't getting work and my car ended up, the fuel injector fucked up and so I had to go take it in. And the mechanic kept jerking me around and I had just gotten my first paycheck and they were like, this is the fuel injector and then like, I go to pick it up because they said it's ready.

Yeah. Ten minutes before I showed up, there was like more problems and I was just frustrated because it's like, it literally was burning through every dollar that I had made in a deposit from a job and it was, it was a substantial amount of money and my friend was just like, and I was frustrated because it's like, you know, you're just like, God damn it. You know, you're just angry and my friend's just like, just be in the moment, man. It's like, come the fuck on, like get a fucking life, like that's your, that's your response. Not like, yeah, that sucks. Let's go, let's go blow up the mechanic shop.

Like just some kind of dicky, funny kind of thing, you know, like fuck these people who are clearly fucking me. Yeah. We're not going to do anything. It's just like, come on, be a, just relish with me. Don't do this like, oh wow, like what can we learn from this? Like, come on. If I'm going to be in the moment, then I want to be a dick. So anyway, you know, that's like the spiritual crowd. The photography crowd, it's like, nobody makes waves, everybody, unless they're offended. Like, so something that happened yesterday was two things happened yesterday. I don't know when you're released this podcast.

I'm going to release it tomorrow. It won't be that beautiful. Okay. So two days ago, or if you're listening 20 years in the future, 20 years ago, two things happen in one day. Carl Lagerfeld dies, who's like an icon within the fashion industry. And Burberry released... I saw that. I saw that. Yeah. The news? Yeah. Yeah, the news. So my friend, who's one of these guys that's like fucking, I call him out on this, but it's so fucking annoying. He's like, one of those guys is like, dude, Carl Lagerfeld died today, and I'm flying into Paris, like, whoa. And he's a photographer friend. And I'm like, fucking little bitch, like quit doing this shit.

And if you'll notice one thing, I'm sure you'll notice right away, I'm no longer gun shy, like I used to because it's where, you know, spiritual people, they're like, don't swear or don't do this stuff. So I'm like, fuck it. Just call, you know, just get back to when we were kids and we'd call people like assholes and other shit. You know, it's... And just to be clear, I think like most of that really boils down for me to intention. There's obviously context, right? I mean, you obviously, if you're in a certain situation... But obviously, we all know... No, no, no, but... No, we do. There are some situations that it's obvious, right?

If you're at a funeral, you're not getting up and making, pulling your dick out on top of the casket. You know what I mean? Like, there are situations... I think at my funeral, someone should do that. Okay, but your funeral may be the exception, but I'm sure you can agree that almost all other funerals, this would be viewed as illicit behavior that most people would agree on. I get what you're saying, though, and we'll get into the more of like the subtlety and the nuance of these things. Yeah. That's really interesting. But not to cut you off. I just want to point that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the whole thing was, is that the buddy of mine, he was like doing that, "Whoa, go to Paris."

You know, the last time I was here, somebody died and it was like friends with the person that put together my art show. So he's the Grim Reaper. Like, what's that? He's the Grim Reaper. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my thing was, as I sent him a picture of the Burberry News, and I was like, "Maybe Carl died this way." And he's one of those like posting, "Carl, Carl, Carl, Carl, Carl, Carl." And I'm just like, you know, he's just, I'm not getting response from him. And it's not like he ever met him. It's just like, you know, in the first comedy, he has like, "Whoa, I'm flying into Paris." And, you know, on his story, on his Instagram story.

And it's so much about this. And so people outside of rage, when they see something and they're like, "Oh my God, Katy Perry shoes. Oh my God, this. Oh my God, that." What's up, wait, what's going on with Katy Perry shoes? So Katy Perry designed these stupid looking shoes with an eyes and mouth. Oh, oh, those are her shoes? I believe it was a Katy Perry line. It's, yeah, I'm pretty sure it was her. Which one is one of the ones that annoy me, the Katy Perry or Pink? So I think it's Katy Perry. Pink is always still upset about boyfriends. Like she's like 50 and she's still like, "You are my boyfriend.

I hate you." Oh. I don't know a lot about Pink. Oh, just her music. It's just like, she's trapped. I feel bad for her. Anyway, I'm going to sound like an asshole on this. You already do. Don't worry. Yeah. So, yeah, so for the listeners that don't know Katy Perry, can we fact that, check that real quick? You can fact check it. I don't, I have, I saw the sandals and if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it's these weird, kind of like, they kind of look black-assy sandals, but they're just kind of like goofy and ill-designed more than anything. Yeah. So it's two eyes and nose and a mouth and they're on a tan shoe and a black shoe.

Yeah. And it's just like shitty design. Not necessarily like, I didn't- It's not even shitty design. It's like, if you look at it, it's like, I could see someone would wear that and I don't think anybody would be like, "Oh, you were wearing blackface shoes." I think that they were just like, "You were in shoes and pants on." Yeah, the intention wasn't. Sure, sure. I think there's a case to be made for that, but in these sensitive times that we find ourselves and maybe not the wisest of choices for footwear, right? Oh my God. Sorry. I just pulled up Katy Perry shoes just to see it and then it says, "Katie Perry dedicates Tuesday to late designer Carl, like, the vlogger felt."

There you go. So it's all confused. And then the next thing just says, "Blackface shoe," that's all it says. After kicking up shoe controversy over blackface, okay, I'm just closing my computer now. So the thing is, with the whole blackface thing too, obviously racism is bad. We all know, it's awful, it's bad. And I want to talk more about why a little bit about racism too, because I'm coming to a really cool moment within my own life and understanding why some things kind of transpired and how things have shifted. I understand, like, personally or culturally, okay, yeah, and it's a cultural thing.

It was like, basically, we'll talk more about it, but it's like, I grew up, you know, very, like, just working class family. And so, you know, like, one of the first friends that I met, like, I don't even remember his name. Like, we were just like, kid kids, like super young kids, it's like, it's like, you know, it's like, I don't remember his name. It's just like, I remember him moving away, and I was sad, and then my next friend was like a blonde hair blue-eyed kid named Brian, and then I had, like, my neighbor's blonde hair blue-eyed Chan, and blah, blah, blah, blah, but then all my other friends were, like, it's, um, it's Russell Allenwood, who's, like, my closest friend, who is Native American, Scott Glasmer, who's, like, part of that, Native American, it's, like, Mexican, like, I look around.

Friends are friends. Like, right. Yeah. I didn't look at them like that. I just didn't... Totally. You just saw them as people, but then when I moved to New York, or moved to Chicago, I started to find that I had less and less people, especially toward the end, and my social circle that were of different ethnicities, and now I realize, like, what it is, it's less to do with race. Like, I was talking to a friend of us, like, well, like, one of my black friends, I was like, I don't understand why, like, I have less black friends anymore. I guess, like, we grow apart is what I just assume, because I couldn't understand.

I didn't understand the dynamics of what's happening in New York. And in terms of the money situation, and basically, you know, I was in a professional class in New York where it starts to, like, really trim not fully, but it trims down a lot within, especially within the fashion world. It's like I had black friends, and I had Asian friends, but not at the level that I had growing up. Sure. And it made me feel even more uncomfortable until I came back to, when I came back to the West Coast, when I came to LA, and I saw that, like, suddenly all my friends, like, when this meme or this post came out, the last two people I was talking to was, it didn't even come to me.

It didn't even make me realize until I was talking to you yesterday. It was, like, the last two people that I talked to that night was my friend, Ricky, who's Asian, and my friend who's Jewish, and, sorry, sorry, the last one I was talking to is my friend, Tristan, who's black, and then I woke up to my friend, Ricky, who texted, woke up to you, and then I woke up to Ricky texting me, and I was like, I was really happy that my friends feel like they're back to normal, because I don't look at them, like, as a race, you know? But just because of the context of everything, I'm like, this is really cool, like, I feel like I'm getting back to my roots where I don't even notice this stuff, but it's just there.

Whereas I think what happened with a lot of people is that we've been focused so heavily on race and racism that you can't even, sometimes you have to almost, like, look at somebody and be like, oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Does this make sense? I know you sound actually very reasonable, and I think these are the thoughts that people ask themselves often, especially white people, and I think it's really, really useful to talk about this stuff out loud. My context for racial diversity mirrors yours in a lot of way, although it was, ironically, in larger urban areas in Boston and New York, at least I had a more racially diverse set of friends than up here in the Hudson Valley, where it's just like, if you just do it by the numbers, it's going to be less likely.

That said, friendships are easier to maintain now over time and space because of digital communications, which makes it a little more nebulous than I think before, and that's an added kind of component of complexity, but the one other kind of nuance or subtlety I'd like to provide for this thing is that, so I just listened to this whole, a whole bunch of biographies, from presidents to Frederick Douglass, who was like the original, he was a slave, and then he was a champion for his race and the Republican and politics and all of these things, an incredible life, truly, but it was really, really fucking interesting to hear something that's so simple and retrospect that most people will agree with regardless of who they are, that slavery is wrong, right?

No one would want their family or friends to be in slavery, but the amount of divisiveness within that one side of the argument that slavery is wrong, as opposed to right, there could be so many different shades of ways to express that and go about it and relate it to cultural institutions and governments and society, that it really is never as, to use the pun intended, as black or white as people think. Now the other thing I'll add to it is that I don't think most people, most white people, and I'd extend this to most, just people in general, understand how critical and terrible, just how terrible existence has been for black people, especially in this country, since they're like earliest time here, and how far it extends, even into the present day with some of these institutions are literally designed to oppress and kind of terrorize people based on nothing more than race.

So there's two things we're talking about here. There's one, this innocence when you're a kid, and you don't see race, right? Your friends are your friends. You don't give a shit. I see this with EY. He doesn't distinguish. Exactly. When your kid, you don't see. Yeah. You really don't. Like there comes a point where you may be shaped by your perception in terms of skin color or then cultural awareness, but there is a point where you just like, you don't give a shit. These are just your friends. These are your boys. It doesn't matter, right? That's a very real kind of colorblind thing that people experience.

But then... Well, can I interject for one thing? Sure. The thing that is cool about kids, though, too, is that when everybody does this, you end up pulling out your arm with your friend and just talking about the difference. "Oh, I'm darker than you, I'm lighter than you," and it's not anything other than that's cool. Yeah. There's no judgment and cultural awareness. I mean, how do you have any kind of thing? Totally. What's a pee-pee? You know, it's like... No. I totally get it, too. It's boys versus girls. It's like figuring out, "Oh, we're different," but we're still not different. I just got to point that out because that's such a...

Yeah, though. There is a lot of... The sweet thing about childhood is that you get to be different, but no one cares. Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things I really enjoy about you a lot is that you're kind of connection to the innocence and playfulness of childhood has always been a theme, I think, since I've known you, and I think it's really cool. The other kind of layer, though, of this racial component is that outside of that innocence where everyone is kind of equal, when you move out into the socioeconomic world, regardless of race or color, there are realities that exist, that kind of underpin these systems, which most people, at this point that I speak to, would agree is fucking broken, regardless of where they fall on Trump to know Trump to climate change to know climate change.

Most people are like, "Yeah, this shit doesn't really... It's not working well. Maybe the top 1% of the 1% are like, "Yeah, this is going great." But everyone else is kind of like, "Oh, this is not looking wonderful." So those systems directly impact not only just on a cultural level, but a psychic level, a cultural, kind of ancestral lineage level, and they're always kind of bouncing around our subconscious and unconscious. So when we think about a lot of these things, we don't sometimes necessarily recognize as much historical and kind of psychic resonance to things that are going on. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, so I agree, the area that I'd like, I mean, I kind of want to play with this a little bit because, you know, keep going, keep going. No, no, that's basically all it was pointing out that what I walked away with having just finished this biography, and it was on the heels of Ulysses S. Grant, who everyone knows about emancipation in this country with Lincoln. But the fact is, is before the emancipation proclamation, Lincoln was like hedging his bets and was like, "Yeah, slavery is okay for the southern states, but only because they might elect me president." So this slow cultural shift happened where it was like, "All right, emancipation happened, now what?"

It's not like all of a sudden everyone's treated equally, that's not what happened. Then you get Ulysses S. Grant, he kind of presides over reconstruction, which is this really fucked up time period, which sees the Ku Klux, the original Ku Klux emerge, which was not like the ones we think about with the White Hoods and kind of like, you know, bumpkins with burning crosses, like they were, it was a systemized underground dish organization that literally just went and murdered black people, like indiscriminately, like and was built into the government institutions. Anyway, you see this through reconstruction, but you also see it kind of get tossed and overturned, as soon as Lincoln is shot, what most people don't think about is he was kind of this shining beacon of hope that was changing, he'd got them through the Civil War, he was this kind of leader who people could galvanize behind, even if they weren't on his side originally.

And he was killed, it was a split ticket, so Andrew Johnson then became president and he was the, like people think Trump was the worst president. People don't know about Andrew Johnson, like they don't understand how fucking bad of a president Andrew Johnson, like Trump is bad, don't get me wrong, doesn't see, he's not going to stand up in like the top 10. But Andrew Johnson was like outwardly one of the only, I think maybe the only president with in publicly acknowledged remarks and printed just racist, just totally overtly racist from Tennessee was just like, not only racist against black people, but white people, it's just like everyone.

He was just like a very angry man, but anyway, so he's racist against everyone that segues into something right there that opens up the door. So he was racist against black people, which, and then he's racist against white people. He was white. Well, he was racist against more, so he grew up in a impoverished, more not impoverished, but like blue collar, so he then basically went up through the Tennessee legislature and kind of resented, and admired the Tennessee ruling class, the slaveholders, right? So he hates these people, but he kind of wants to be them. That's basically his situation. That's Andrew Johnson.

Okay. Yeah, because that brings into where I was cringing when I was listening to your circle jerk podcast. Yes. Was I acknowledging? I acknowledge it was a circle jerk, the very eight. Yeah. I love your size. Okay. Love your size. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was saying. I love your size. You're mournful size at the podcast. Oh, yeah. I thought it was like a circle jerk. I thought you said size, like, is there a thing that I don't know, like a joke about like circle jerks like, and like your size, like that's what you said to Sean. Oh, yeah. That's classic circle jerk humor, Michael, of course. Yeah.

I don't want to hang out with circle jerks like you. Not that there's anything wrong with that. So no, you know, the thing that, one of the things that made me sigh, and like, I love you and I love Sean and Cass and Jen, you know, but listening to it, I, like I told you yesterday was that I cringed a, like quite a bit here and there. You could say you weren't a fan at times of the conversation. Well, I could say I was not a fan, but I cringed. You were like, Oh, yeah. Okay. It really was. It was like, come on. Come on, guys, like Jesus Christ, like, and there's so many you already told me this.

So I'm not. It's not catching me up guard. I just really enjoy. No, I know. I'm sure it, and it wouldn't because, and I'm not perfect in any way either. But one of the things was where, you know, I don't remember the how it went down, but it was essentially like my impression of it was like, yeah, man, it's like, it's like the white man is the problem. Yeah, man. It's the white man, white man's problem, man. And wait, was I the first, was I the first one? Was I the first one who's saying it could have been like, yeah, man, white man's the problem. Yeah, man. Wait, who am I? Is that the second point are I love it, but it was like, it was this thing where it was men, white men hating on white men and you thought we were virtue, I kind of open up.

What's up? You thought we were virtue signaling, basically, that we were saying, hey, virtually, okay. And it's like, come on, pull it together, you dumb bucks, like, you can't blame everything on white men. You can't blame the separation on white men. Like you guys brought up the Gillette commercial and you were like, and it was just that was cringe worthy too. And it's like, I didn't know anything about it. That was me finding it. Okay. Let me explain this. Let me just like, I just want to play with this for a second. Sorry. That's okay. Yeah. You had the platform for my friend. Yeah. So the Gillette commercial, for those that don't know, Gillette came out with this campaign.

It was like a men's like, it's for fucking men's racers, not women's racers, not racers, men's racers. I stopped shaving 10 years ago, about 10 years ago when I saw something in ad week about, which is like a trade journal is either ad week or one of the something similar to it, where Lever and Johnson and Johnson are proctoring gamble, we're discussing having a war on men because they realize they're missing a lot of, a lot of good money in that men market. And immediately there's like very aggressive campaigns about men and our shaving and the clothes that we wear and blah, blah, blah. And I just stopped at that point.

I was like, well, fuck this. So fast forward to this Gillette campaign, and they just wanted to revisit their, their whole slogan of the best a man can get. So to let the best a man can get, right? Isn't that the, yeah. Okay. That's exactly it. Yes. So if you go back to the original commercials, it was like men being men that were just like fighting fires and they were like being a good husband and they were being like a good worker or they were being like good with their sons. They were just like, just really pointing out like, you guys are doing it. Keep doing it. Keep being strong men. Like be like, you got it, like you got it.

You guys are like being good men. And it was, there's something that's like kind of cheesy, but it's also very poetic. It's very beautiful. It's kind of inspiring. That's what it was meant to be. I don't know who the art director was on that with the creative director, but they really nailed it. The agency nailed it on that one. So fast forward to this one, because the thing is that I'm an artist and I sell my art. Go to studio.com and buy some art, but, but I sell my art and I also do commercial work and commercial work is what pays the giant bill. So you look at someone like Sean, it's like he does his personal work, but you know, he's done, he has some really good business models that helped like cam girls and other ones like have his success, but he, I believe he has openly talked about like, I think it's like Pornhub or my free cams or somebody like that paid a lot of money for him to show his, his documentary.

So it's like it's still a big corporation. We still work with big corporations because they can pay our bills for an entire year. Yeah. And she openly acknowledges often. They both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was like, you know, like shit on the corporations. And so what it is like corporations like try their best to like do public art and blah, blah, blah. And all they're trying to revisit the campaign and use some art. So the hired agency that's very inclusive, you know, they try to not have like any men and if they try to have like all people color, the director they had was like a white girl from Australia.

But if you go back and you look at her actual website, it's very hard feminist shit where it's like the only, there's one campaign where it's like a women's campaign and it would be really cool. It's just women being tough and, you know, like doing, um, doing really hard athletic shit. Yeah. And you're like, Oh, this is really good until the man shows up and the first man that comes in they just tackle him, it's like an old white man and they feed him up and it's like, why would you need to do that? Why would you need to do that? And then you look at her reel and it's like, it's all about like, um, men have been oppressing women by wearing bras, like for women wearing bras, it's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

And so when you look at that campaign and that campaign is just so much like virtue signaling that and also shaming men. What was the campaign? I still, I never saw it. What was the duet thing? It opens up and it's just like men looking in the mirror and it's talking about the MeToo movement, like on the radio, um, and it's like, we could be doing better. And then all of a sudden a boy runs through this, like, uh, this, uh, this, there's like, oh, so there's a woman, like holding her kid. I don't remember the exact thing. There's a woman holding her kid and the kids, like, it's like the little text messages coming up and he's getting bullied.

And then, um, and which is really interesting, sorry, so then like this room comes through and like all these boys are chasing this little boy. And then, uh, it's like this like montages of all these scenes, you know, okay, of just boys being assholes and being bullied by other bullies. And they, they're, they're, they're, when they have a boy getting bullied, you just assume it's a boy now because it's already framed that boys are bullying boys, which is more likely a girl is going to bully a girl through texts. All right. I mean, who knows? Either way, both genders, yes, but they framed it. So it's just like boys are bullying boys.

And then it keeps going and it's like more me to stop. It's like cringy TV shows. They pull out a scene of Anna Ferris like yelling who's are talking like, sorry, I don't know if she's yelling. I think it's on. I think it's on. I don't care. I like her. I like her. I don't. I don't at all. I think that she's, I think that you can watch enough YouTube videos of her being hypocritical on a level that's just disgusting and about tearing people apart and make and capturing this, this same narrative. It's just this old white male is the problem. Like even with you, you're like, yeah, the baby boomer suck on that cringe podcast that you had like, it was like the baby boomer suck.

You kind of die, they don't, they fucking know stop this. Here's the thing. This is the problem. No. Hold on. Let me, this is why they don't suck. Yeah, we were in a war and this generation, that generation busted their ass to like, make sure that we were okay and then the forward generation, most boomers didn't know. No, no, listen. I'm getting there. The next generation was dealing with the parents who like really sacrificed and went through the great depression and wars and they continue to try to make things the best that they can. They, you know, some of them brought in the spiritual sexual revolution, others of them, they just tried to like to build up the tech world, they built the infrastructure that we have today.

Like the previous generation, the generation before that, the generation before that, they just were stronger and stronger. If we were to say that they suck, then you have to acknowledge that someone in history is eventually going to look at our generation and say, this generation sucks. Totally. Of course we do suck. We're the worst. No, stop it. That's the shitty behavior, right? That's it. That's it. That's the shitty behavior. What you did right there is like it's basically it's so gross to me. It is like absolutely disgusting what you just did right there because what you're doing is what so many people are doing, which is just shitting on themselves and they're becoming like this.

Like, okay, hold on. They're either becoming like a victim, you know, like, oh, poor me, woe is me or we're the worst, we're the worst rather than saying, hey, life is fucking hard. This is challenging. This is difficult. We're doing the best that we can. The next generation is not fucking any better. The generation out there is not going to be fucking better. Like you have a kid and many people have kids and they're not raising them to be any better. They're making them to become little pussies, you know, which is what the baby boomers were, the pussies of the older generations, you know what I mean?

The Gen X was the pussies of the baby boomers, the millennials were the pussies. You can just keep rolling the pussy downhill, but by belittling and saying, we suck, we suck at beating that drum, what is, what good is that going to do for you or anyone else? I think you're getting together, man. You're missing. You're missing two things here. One is your offendedness at that behavior is. I'm not offended. I'm not offended. I've rose down. Yeah, replay it when we, whoever just listened, flip it back 30 seconds a minute and tell me if you think Michael is offended. No. I've rose out. There's a difference.

Same thing. Oh, well, okay. No, it's not. Well, we can dissect that afterwards. The second thing is this is like telling you straight up bad behavior. I am not. You were a kid that is just, what would it be the equivalent? It's like if your kid showed up and if you walked in the door and he just said, if you heard your kids say what you just said, my friends and I, we are the worst. We are the worst. And dad, you're the worst. Okay. It's like get it together, kid. You're being fucking dumb. Michael, I hope you can appreciate that when I say boomers suck, A, I'm not specifically referring to any one individual and B, I can't possibly mean or intend to mean that all people born within a certain date range categorize as boomers are the worst.

What I mean is the prevailing ethos of the time, of the generation. I'm just saying is probably not one of the best in recent memory. We can't even go back that far in terms of comparing and contrasting these things because societal norms change pretty damn quickly, even for, so I clearly don't mean, and when I'm saying I'm the worst, I'm more acknowledging that I could maybe be doing a little bit better about being aware of climate change and not saying that I am actually a terrible human being. But Noah, the thing is like, yes, you can say that, but the words, there is an element where people are actually soaking this up and this is the problem that I have that I've been trying to explain to a lot of friends and then friends just shut me down for.

But I believe that we're in a very serious spiritual warfare right now and I think it's that the spiritual war that's been happening for a while now. It's about, it's deep and I think that these wounds are very deep and people are internalizing this and when this, you know, you're not the first to say our generation sucks and blah, blah, blah and people suck and blah, blah, blah. I don't think we're that bad. Just to be clear. Just to be clear. Yeah. I think millennials are kind of getting out of this. Hey, saying that kind of shit. You wouldn't allow your kid to just come in and make like, you can make jokes about it.

If he was making a joke, I would and I was understood that it's a joke and that there's more. But you're, you know, the things like you have no punchline to that like it's like the point where is the person. So it tells, listen, the first time someone tells it joke, it's like funny, but then the second time they do it, the third, the fourth, the fifth, sixth, it doesn't get any funnier. It just gets like becomes like part of like a true narrative. Okay. Well, let me explain. Let me, let me maybe give you some insight. Or just accept. But let me, maybe I'm right on this. Let me give you some insight into why I actually say baby boom or suck and millennial suck or don't suck.

The reason I don't suck is because Michael just pause, Michael pause and listen for 30 seconds. That's all I'm asking you. Just pause and listen for 30 seconds. Thank you. All I'm saying is part of the reason that I say that is so people tug at that string. That's a very confrontational stance to make. So if people pull a little bit deeper, they might see that, oh, why is he coming to this conclusion? Why is he even saying it? And if you just pull like a couple of times, you realize I clearly don't mean that all baby boomers are millennials or me or my family or my friends or my race or my all of that stuff.

It's always more complex and nuanced than that. It's always the case. I think recognizing that people are missing that very often now, I've noticed it within my self, especially within the last year and my relationship to media and seeing how I can get outraged at something I genuinely am not outraged about if I think about it for a little bit longer and look at the context. So I get what you're saying, but I mean, I think you also have to look at it that when people say some of these things, it might be more nuanced than just the words that they're using. So if you just want more specificity in terms of people speaking, that's one thing, but I think it would be wise if intelligent people started looking at the language that they used, not in terms of like, okay, so this is very, this is very difficult because like, I'm kind of looking at it as like, what is our path forward?

That's why I'm doing this. We as a human race as a society. Yeah, as a society, like I think a lot of us are trying to figure out what is the path forward and it's like, the way that I see it and the reason why I put myself back out through the reason why I started the podcast again, the reason why I'm like posting what I posted, which ended up into a shitstorm of its own in a way. The reason why is because I think that all of this stuff, we villainized a lot of people, a lot of people become villains, right? And the more that we repeat some of the words that initially would have been like a joke, they turn into a reality for some people and now it's become like a total truth for them.

It becomes a fact and I agree, it's nuanced. It's like, yeah, some baby boomers suck balls, like the Parkland kids, I can go on about why it's really great what they've done. I can also go on about how some of them are little shitbags. Each individual in each instance, each moment is different. We can talk about David Hogg and I can go back and forth whether he's a good guy or bad guy, but he's not either, he's just a dude and then he's having these things, these moments. I guess it's capturing people is the problem and I'm just trying to get these with the word, trying to get these blanket statements, and I've got to get it for myself too.

I'm not perfect, but I'm working on it, but when I do hear people do it and I say it's gross, just as if someone said it to me, oh, that's gross, it's not that I'm offended. I'm not offended. I'm not offended. I'm grossed out, it's repugnant, it's just like I want to throw up. It's literally the same. No, it's not, offended is like a friend of mine was like, okay, watch this, you're going to love this. Have you ever heard the term though like that odor is offensive to me? Yeah, offensive is different than it's making it throw up. Listen to me for one second, go ahead, sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, please come on up as a total asshole right now.

My plan is working perfectly. Good job, dude. I'm really good at it. No, but go, just go. Just let him paint himself. Just give him that. Well, I really don't even really look at it in any way like either of us could paint each other into corners. I'm genuinely interested in your perspective on this stuff because just so you know, like you're not the only person within my social circle who you say no, no, I'm just I'm just saying like this isn't the only conversation I've had and it's clearly something is going on with what a lot of people refer to as identity politics and being overly PC or offended.

And I think to just like get a little meta about it that those are also generalizations and something is taking place here and I'm interested in figuring out what that is. So I really don't think you're painting yourself. Explain what you mean by that, then. I think that, you know, what's we, you know, one of the first questions you asked me on your first podcast is what is your doing? Remember what you used to do? There's like I'm going to ask you 10 questions. Yeah. I mean, I just started. I didn't know what to do. I know. I just remember giving you shares and conversation. Don't fuck. It took me a hundred sixty episodes to be able to do that effectively.

Yeah, well, so, so one of the questions you asked the original was like, what is spirituality? It's like, I was like, I believe I said at the time, it's like, because I'm still kind of forming that my, my idea of it, but it's a human spirit. And I think that there's people that want to just bring us down, there's just bumbers on the planet. There's not many of them, but there's like a few bumbers, and party poopers and, you know, bitter, just suicidal trained wrecks that want to bring civilization down. And then most people just want to have a good time. We're here. Yeah. We're, we're not, you know, we don't remember where we came from.

We don't know where we're going, but we know that there's that other place. And we won't necessarily always agree on it, but where we're going, but it's like, well, we're here. Let's have a good time. And there's a lot of hardships, you know, just life is the world is just trying to like constantly getcha, you know, there's, there's always, um, someone's got to eat and you're their dinner kind of thing, not, not, it's like every moment it's happening, but, you know, that's the system that is emerged for modern civilization is certainly that we know that, right? You know, there's billions of people starving and we know that resource wise just pure math.

We know that doesn't have to be the case. So we know the system that's emerged is somewhat, you know, reductive to that. I need to eat. I'm going to eat your dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, the whole thing is, is that there's these people that are out there and they've just kind of snaked their way through and they've grown in size since like forever ago, if you think again, go back to cave days, you know, there's like a civilization of like a hundred, you probably would get one of those every like hundred years and they'd be able to combat it. They have billions of people and you know, and people that are really shit on, they had bombs dropped on them.

They were starving. Yeah. They were disenfranchised in school. They were picked on whatever the hell it is and there's more and more of them and they're able to like congeal and create a stronger army. And I just feel that that's what the spiritual war is. Is that there are people that really want to like bring us down and make us like hate each other. And so we have like stronger and so I want to talk about this friend that really started to like help me see that things are just really fucking stupid. Is this friend? Is this friend Jesus, Michael, fucking love that dude. I genuinely love Jesus, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

So no, it's a friend that like I want to try to kick it into maybe three examples of what happened. And then you'll get an idea of like the person's mindset and I don't think that this person is the only person like this. And then because there's a lot around it because I've been like, why am I attached to this person? Like, why am I like is this person in my life when there's so much drama all the time? Okay. So this friend, she was going through a breakup and I was like, hey, that sucks. You know, we've been friends for a while and like you're just trying to help the person out. So I, um, she's back in New York says like, what's your address?

I'll send you a book, um, I thought about it because she's also said, oh, when I have some money, she's kind of, uh, you know, she's just working. Um, and she's like, when I have some money, I want to get some books on Buddhism. Okay. And so I was like, oh, you know, if she's in a breakup, I had loads of results on my podcast. You wrote a really good book called love hurts. And I was like, it's a simple read. It'll take like 10 minutes. And it's like a decent introduction to Buddhism. Yeah. She's like, what's your address? Yeah. I shouldn't bother. Yeah. I shouldn't bother press. Um, so I was like, I sent her the book.

I was like, Hey, I sent you a book, um, you know, it's like a quick read. You don't have to read the whole thing. You know, like whatever, just like pick it up, but it's just maybe take it. So your take on that would be what? Just real quick. Just like in a quick, 20 second, 10 second. What do you mean by that? Good guy, bad guy. What was your? Sounds like a friend trying to send something to someone who was going through a time. God. No, no, God. No, I'm offended. It literally, I'm offended with the text that came back hours later from her. Okay. I've offended the older men, uh, send me books.

Okay. I mean, Michael, Michael at this point, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but this is the, no, this, like, seven, give me three, let me get three examples. This is the thing, this is this person's MO and she's not alone. She's not alone. I know what you're saying in terms of, she's offended because like, I can't believe you say these words. I can't believe that you would think that she got offended at one point with another friend, a feminist friend who says like, Hey, you know, when we use these words, like the patriarchy. What words did you use? I don't understand. What did you say? Oh, so when I talked about the patient, cause like, Hey, you know, like, I think that, um, I think that maybe we should discuss coming up with like a better word to describe this because the patriarchy lumps all men know we've had this conversation.

We strongly disagree about the terminology and etymology of the word. And I do not think that when someone says the patriarchy, they mean all men. That's not okay. So this is the thing, Noah. You are correct. I agree with you. I think that most people don't think that way, but some people, this girl thing can't affect everyone. Everyone's going to take. No, I understand. But I think that there's enough dumb people on the planet. Like they, when I say dumb, I mean it like they're just dumb to these ideas. They're dumb to looking into it. They don't understand the big picture. When they hear feminism, what they hear is like, they just hear female.

I agree with this. This is a fair point. This is a fair point. This is a fair point. Yes. And so they, they don't need to do any more research. They're done. They heard men suck. That's fair. So, so I'm like, Hey, it's not men that suck. It's, it's like, it's this powerful group. It's this classist group that suck, you know, not, it's not all people that are powerful and money. It's like a very small group. It's those people that, again, if you look at it in the spiritual war, it's like there's going to be people from the bottom that are really hateful. Michael, Michael, you do realize at least for the past 2,500 years or so, those powerful people have almost exclusively been men, right?

Well, you know that. No, no, no, there were matriarchal societies that the same thing before. We don't know. What happened? We do know. But no, we have not traveled in a space and time machine to see which civilization succeeded and which ones failed. Yes. What are you talking about? What? We, of course we do. We know if we will, unless we're classifying as a failed civilization is one that no longer exists. That's exactly what we know. We know if there's, if there had been any, we don't know. What do you mean? Yes. We do. What? Do the Mayans exist anymore? Do the Aztecs exist? Do the Incans? There could have been all their sins.

There could have been like small, listen, all that I'm saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying I'm 100% right. Just so you know, I'm not saying like. I know. I know. I know. Okay. I'm saying that as far as we know, there could have been small enclops of women. There are. Today there are. Hold on. There are. I'm agreeing with you. Strongly. There could have been some. What are those things called? The Amazonian women. And maybe some of those failed. We don't know. They did fail there with the matriarchal society kind of its death rose coincided. This was like observably so, at least for the Abrahamic religions, like 2,500 to 3,000 years ago.

Now, before that in other traditions, like Eastern ones, men also predominantly ran things. However, Joseph Campbell did some really good work. It was a book that was published after he was died, but it was a book called Goddesses. It's really fucking awesome that goes through a lot of these chronological evolutions and falling of matriarchal societies. And no one would say that the matriarchal societies were better and or worse. That's not what's being said. There's no conjecture about that. People can make those arguments that they want to, but we knew that they existed before what became the dominant patriarchal system, which we are still in the midst of at this point.

But this is not like arguing for gender or against. These are just observable facts and certain laws and codices and just systems that emerged from the system that we call the patriarchy are attached to it. And they do mean the same things, right? This is typically can be dissected in a lot of different ways socially, culturally, scientifically, all these things. But basically, we know this happened. This isn't like up for debate at the end of the day. So, so, so this is the thing. So again, I want to go back into that's, I get what you're saying. This is the thing that I'm playing with and you just have to really have an open mind to try to understand.

And it's like, it's not, there's like a lot of triggering things with the stuff. I have a pretty open mind. You know that. It's really, I guess the reason why I say is because it's like, I think people along the path to understanding this, like this view, it's triggering because they're immediately like you're using, how do you put it? Okay. I was good on the path. Go down the path. So you have these like, let's not call them like powerful, okay, well, let's just call them like, like the, the, the, that's very top of the pyramid. You know, you have very wicked man pyramid is this. What pyramid?

This is like a hierarchy. Like the, the power of power of power hierarchy. Okay. Like, and then from there, you probably have, you know, like his buddies and the women that are like in that crowd, because he's going to have friend, you know, like either a lover, a wife and some, like women that he gets along with. And then that, so that crowd is like this ruling crowd and it's the face of it is this one person, but it's more of like a click that's a talkie. You could say. Sure. Yeah. So you roll down and you have like, you know, the, all of the middle class, like from the upper middle class to the lower middle class.

And at the very bottom of it, you just have people getting shit on you have the slaves. And you know, like you have the, the women that are getting raped and the women that are being terrorized and you have the women that are being spit on in the streets and blah, blah, blah. You also have like the men that are really doing like all this really hard ass work that are doing like the majority of the labor that the, that they're building the buildings and they're dying and there's, they're, they're fighting for what, just to survive almost. Okay. And so what happens, what I've been finding is that these offended people, these offended like, oh, men, you know, those kinds of people like the patriarchy, it's their answers are go to, they completely forget that there's a, and they see it through their worldview.

It's like, you know, most of these are women and you have like a few men that are like this as well. In the men, I feel like a lot of them are people that are in the middle to upper middle class that will be like, men suck. They're forgetting this whole crowd of working class people that are being summed up in the patriarchy inside of the mind of a lot of those men and those women, they're not looking at these people as like the ones who are just doing the hard work and really aren't, they're not bad people. They're not bad people. I hear you. A part of the problem, but they're being, but they're being treated like they are part of the problem.

They're being treated like they're getting lumped in with the people who are maybe hard at this process. They have no chance. They just want to like supply, you know, like food on the table for their wife, for their kids. And so, so my thing is that when you look at these like dumb fuck people, you know, the dumb fuck people are the ones that just hear the word patriarchy. They're done. They heard feminism, patriarchy, feminism for women, patriarchy is for men. They look at us like, oh, at the top is like, this is all ran by evil men. All men are evil. And then they're done. And then what they'll do is they'll be in a confirmation bias silo, where they're looking to confirm that men are bad, which is easy to do.

Any way you dice it, women are bad, men are bad, blacks are bad, Jews are bad, like it's if you get into that silo, it's an echo chamber. So what I'm getting at is can we please the intellectuals, the smart people in the crowd, could we please, please come up with a new word or a new way of framing this so that we can move forward so that we don't have because those women and those men become very vocal. And like, I had a buddy that was on a job and he was on a job and he was an all female office at 50 plus women. And he was as, what do you call it, a consultant. And they had two, maybe three men in the entire office.

And they were in a meeting and then something came up. And then new facts came in so he interjected, like something that they weren't aware of. And then the woman stopped him right there in the middle of the meeting, like 10 women are just like, you need to stop mansplaining to all of us. And it was a real thing. And he's like, dude, you should have, I was like, you should have pulled the Asian guard. Like, you're only doing this because I'm Asian, like, but, you know, these are like, these are wicked people that are out there that are using this terminology. And I think that's smart people, there's a jump you're making there that I think would be worth your examining that to go from people being overly sensitive or misappropriating their anger or rage at mansplaining, even if it's just someone explaining and it has nothing to do with gender dynamics, calling them wicked is a huge leap from that point.

Okay. That's fair. But let's get back to it. Okay, that's fair. I get that. I feel like what the point of what I'm saying is, okay, there are people that are using this terminology and they've stopped their thinking and they're in their silo and they're just men or bad men or bad men are bad everywhere. I see this everywhere though, right? If you can zoom out from that, you're in a silo, Michael, just for a second, zoom out from all the silos and take the bird's eye view and you see that this is happening across all different socioeconomic, racial, all these different spheres, this is just what's happening.

It seems to me that this is what's happening. I see people getting more kind of, they're basing their identity on either the counter identity of something that's happening or opposing it or by believing something so much that it shapes immediately almost kind of like this reactive behavior when something crosses across their screen or their consciousness. So I mean, I definitely get what you're saying and I want to examine the kind of dynamics of the men versus women one because I hear that's emerging from what you're talking about. But I mean, this is just as a meta phenomenon. It seems like this is something that's happening culturally and societally and I don't think it's a good thing to be honest at this point.

So continue. I think it stems from, by the way, to the audience, I'm really sorry that I know that my vibes are really intense right now. And if you can put a disclaimer in the intro that I understand, I'm definitely not loving peace in this one. It's like I'm coming in with a mindset of like there's really hard things that we need to really push forward. And I like that. I'm starting to understand why a lot of people that are in the sphere that are understanding this are getting like kind of getting testy because it's very hard to stay calm and you're really seeing like the family unit, the global family unit all the way down to the actual family units kind of being broken apart heavily and turned into this muck that is happening around us and but anyway, yeah, yeah, the thing I think is that it's with the gross stuff and the icky stuff that's like not making it nice for everybody is a lot of it comes from the hyperbolic statements.

And I have to work on it myself. I think everyone is doing it. But I think that that's it's this thing that we have to acknowledge because you know we were talking yesterday that a lot of it's to do with nuance. And I agree, but we have to acknowledge as well that there's a lot of people majority of the people we live, you and I, probably a lot of your listeners live in a world where life is a lot easier for us. We're not hustling a day job and then we just want to go see our friends and then we want to get out or we're not they're not they're not really looking into information and ideas and they're not, but there's enough people because I'm seeing it like personally I'm seeing it not just like, Oh, here's one or two, but I see it like daily where they're not looking into what patriarchy is, whether or not looking into feminism and which way we're in they're just kind of like, Oh, that's a cool thing.

I get it and they're running with it and it's the baby boomers are bad or the millennials are so stupid. You know, that's like a meme or a meme it's more a meme than anything that's actually foundationally accurate or examined I totally understand that that's going on. Yeah, that's like a part of it and then so the offensive part comes in where when you I sent you that college humor video yesterday and this is going to sound stupid, but I really think if people watch college humor more, they would relax because they're really they are the comedians on point right now in this culture like they are killing it.

They're so on point they're taking every issue and they're breaking it apart. And I don't know whatever side you're on they have a video like to really help you understand like to comfort you the friend literally a friend the other day was suicidal like really going through a hard thing. We were talking back and forth and she was in Europe and I sent her some college humor videos and she was like immediately just calm down and she's like, Okay, I'm not crazy blah blah blah like, you know, it's funny I have I have people, yeah, from all over the world to basically having similar issues, not suicidal, but grappling with how to deal with what is going on.

I mean, I don't obviously you and I don't have any hard answers on this stuff because it's still emerging, but I mean, my personal way of dealing with this is just trying to get it's way partially, but you'd be surprised man like there were there was this past year there were several times where I took very long stretches from from weed and much to my surprise in some ways like didn't really alter the way I approached a lot of this stuff. I was like, damn, maybe this is just how I am and I just really like weed. So you'd be surprised, but my point is this is that there's no my way of dealing with it truthfully outside of weed is I try to investigate things that don't make sense to me and then I try to understand what potentially that person's perspective and intention maybe like what brought them to that point.

And if it's usually something that's nuanced or complex or a little more dig beneath the surface, that tends to shine through and I mean, I think of this like the best example I have of this is there's a transgender woman, Natalie Nguyen, who goes by contra points on YouTube, Twitter, and she's really, really fucking awesome. She gets down to the I'm an opposite. I'm annoyed with a lot of stuff that she says and to me, I get that. I'm not annoyed by what she says because it's an issue that quite frankly, as a non transgender person as not knowing many people who have been transgender outside of like encounters or acquaintances.

It's not something I think about a lot, but I hear about it because I know there are people are affected by it. I know there are people who go through this doesn't seem like an easy thing to go through as an individual and in a lot of other social situations. So I was interested in I'm like, what is the pronoun situation about and basically what I found through her very well thought out examples and kind of just like nuance and logic breakdown. What really shown shine through for me is that like this is someone who is just bringing their personal experience and kind of compassionate wisdom to a situation.

It's not arguing necessarily even if she disagrees with someone like Ben Shapiro about how to pronounce someone's name if they prefer to be called something. It's not blanket only do this. This is the only situation that's going on. It's saying, hey, look at this from if this was someone in your family, if it was you, if it was a situation where if you acted a little bit kind, not because you had to, but because it's the nice thing to do that that really is an important facet with all of this stuff because there's a lot of different sections of society and culture that are now interacting with each other that didn't happen before in a lot of ways.

So I agree with the sentiment that she's getting at. I agree that like treat people like you would treat family and there's two splinters with that, which is one, you still fuck with your family, you know, like you still mess around with them. Yes, but you don't. And you can't get but her. But the other side too is that you treat your family like that. But you know, the message, the other message is that she's putting out there, which I'll disagree with is like, she's like, if you're not, if you don't have sex with a trans woman who still has a penis, then you're transphobic. It's like, I don't want to, that's not me being.

That's fine. She didn't say that. Yes. She was the one. Wasn't she the one that said that? I can go back and look. No, no, no, no. No one is saying that's insane. Yes. She did. She's saying that if you, what did you say that if you don't have sex with the transgender person, you're transphobic, that's no one would say that. That's not saying. Oh, my God. I will find the video and I'll send it to you. Oh, I don't. That's that's. And there's so totally. Yeah. That's the things that you'll. She didn't see. Yeah. What happened where I found out about that actually was from the trans community. They were like outraged.

Yes. There are many, there are many people who they were like, you can't call people transphobic just because they don't want to have sex with you. No, I don't knowing her videos and seeing, you know, a fair amount of them and her as a person, I doubt the veracity of that statement in context. Do you know what I mean? Like that, no, that's it's insane for how well thought out so many of her points and arguments are. I just, I don't think that that is something that's correctly attributed. Maybe it's not her. Maybe it's another one. Yeah, sure. And then you can clear it up in the intro. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

People stake out. Or at the end of this. Yeah, sure. Yeah. People stake out hard stances and opinions on a lot of different issues and there's more issues than ever that are accessible right now. So I don't think we should look at the outliers in terms of how these things are judged. I think for most people when like, if you're like me as a straight white guy who has not encountered many trans people and accounts them among their social circle, you may not have any knowledge of any of this stuff. So getting level headed kind of insights into it, I think does become important, which is the only antidote that I can think of for kind of like puncturing the filter bubbles that a lot of people find themselves in on both sides of the fence.

A lot of my friends who are comedians, like, this is what we talk about, like, where is the nuance, right? Like, where is like the outrage relative to a joke? And it's not a question that I think is fully answerable. But I do think that if the empathetic quality isn't a part of it, then it kind of weakens the argument against not being offended. Does that make sense? Let's say that last for you. I'm saying that if empathy isn't a part of the interaction in terms of you shouldn't be offended, if there's not some empathetic quality to that, then it weakens the overall argument that people are too offended.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So the thing is, okay, yes, where I'm getting out with this, though, is that when you're with your friends and your family, like, you bust each other's balls, and like, I bust your balls hard, like, a lot, you know, like, I like you because it's like, you can handle it. You can take it. I felt that you were really, like, crumbling. You don't see me crying in the shower later that day, Michael. That's true. I'm genuinely... I'm trying to get tricky off thinking about me at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tears of joy. That's what I meant. Exactly. Yeah. No, it's sad tears, but still jerking off because you're still thinking about me.

It's weird. It's really uncomfortable. My own personal crying game. Yeah. And that goes back to that college humor video they sent, so for the listeners, it's like a video where this... One of the... This is two characters kind of like scoping out this... Could you explain it? Could you explain things better? It's just kind of... I mean, to be fully transparent, I didn't think it was that funny. I thought it was clever, but I wasn't like, this is like really funny to me. Oh, it's not... Yes, it's not hilarious. It's not funny, haha. It's clever. It's just basically an outrage circle. So each person is giving a somewhat legitimate grievance and why you shouldn't call someone this or say this term, and then following it up with a equally, if not more offensive term for someone else in the group, and it was just kind of this outrage circle.

Oh, wait. Which one did you watch? That's what you sent me. Which one did I send you? You sent me. Oh, god damn it, I sent you the wrong one. Okay, making bigoted jokes because you care. That's what you sent me. Yeah, making bigoted jokes because you care, and this is the one where it's like a... The guy and the girl are hiding behind the bush and they're watching... Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the other one. I watched one after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I watched a couple of them. So I didn't... Okay, so... Yeah, that's a different video. That's different. So it's their hiding behind the bush, and there's this...

Please put a link in the show. Don't tell me what to do, man. I'll do what I want. I'll put links where I want to put links. Okay, well... It's my show. You pause and watch this video, please. And then you'll hear me fuck this thing up. I'm not talking to you, it's not an audience. I got it. Google it, since Noah won't put in the link because it's so hard. I have a hard time with showing this to myself, so I'm not judging you. I don't take any questions. So the couple that they're watching, it's basically... It's like a gay guy and a straight girl, and he's trying to get her to say a gay joke. But the gay guy's trying to get the straight girl because they're friends, and he's just doing everything he can.

He's... He's feeding her lines. He's like feeding her lines, and there's obvious punch lines that she's just not taking the bait on. Yeah, and the couple in the bush, the guy's really upset, he's a gay guy too, and he's like really upset because he's like, "Come on, when is she going to just take the line and make a gay joke? When is she going to do it?" And he's really upset, and he's explaining to the girl that's hiding behind the bush with him, that look like we expect you, we expect you to make jokes with us, we expect you to do it at one point, and that's when we know that you're friends. That's when we know that we've overcome all the homophobia, racism, sexism, all that stuff.

At one point, you care so much that you can actually joke about the stuff that it could have hurt you before. So we do that with families, like within your family, it's at one point, you bond on saying things that, and you do it with your friends, it's what we do, and what's happened is people become so offended that, and they become so pulled out from each other that if they overheard someone making a gay joke, not understanding the context of it, they're just going to get angry and say, "You can't say that, you can't do that," or am I getting with this? There's a level of intimacy that's implied there in the relationship, where I think that's like the defining thing.

If you're making a, like I used to make, I had at one point, I found two of my good, good friends who are close to me, physically, in my area, in college, were Korean. So I think this was at the same time that there was this horrible UVA tragedy where like a Korean kid, Virginia Tech, like shot a bunch of people. I was close enough with my friends that I was like, "Guys, I'm getting a little bit nervous." I can't go and say that joke to a large group of Korean people at the Korean market, because they don't know who the fuck I am, they don't know the context of me having Korean friends. Oh! But this is the thing, it's like how you deliver it, you can.

I'm not saying, listen, listen, I'm using a porn out. If you go in there and you say it in a light-hearted way, but if I just come in and start saying, "Oh, I got to be careful for them Koreans," like everyone's going to be like, "Holy shit, get this maniac out of here." So there is intimacy or implied social connection that allows that, you know, maybe offensive thing in another context to be palatable. So that's important to keep in mind. I agree with that. Okay. All right. Good for you. Good for me. Good for me. What? Have you here agreed? No, I'm just fucking with you. I'm fucking with you.

No, I agree. I agree. I agree. All right. I don't have anything to add to that one. All right. Or to choose a part with that one. No, I mean, so. The only reason I bring it up is... I think that was said well. I think the only reason I bring it up is because I think, like, one of the most recent examples I spoke about this a couple of times on the podcast is this Louis C.K. thing, the jokes he was making about Parkland and some of... I forget the other things. And I remember seeing it flash across my screen and immediately getting outraged, immediately being like, "What a dick." You outraged? I was outraged.

And then I thought about it for like another 10 minutes and I'm like, "You know what? Am I outraged?" Like, he's definitely like, "This is a pretty stupid thing to do in the context of what's going on and maybe media relations, not that wise." But then I spoke to one of my comedian friends and he's like, "Listen. My take on it." And he's like, "You know, it sounds bad if you just read it on the page. But if you listen to it, it sounds like a comedian." And he's like, "There wasn't... He wasn't having any favors done for him because there was this, like, clearly, like, loud, broke, kind of white guy laughing maniacally in the microphone, but he's like, "Wait, wait, wait.

Sorry. You can say it, bro." Yeah. But how do you know he was old? I was told because he was the way he was laughing at the jokes. They were like... Okay. Because the material, as far as I can tell... You're told that this person... Okay. Just... I'm just saying, like, I don't know that he was all right, but the jokes and the... Like, for instance, just to be clear, I didn't think... He's kind of a conservative and people would have called him alt. That's the problem. Okay. All right. It's some conservative. They're immediately called alt. If you're a centrist, you're alt. Like, I would say that I'm liberal progressive with a centrist poll.

And... But what does that even really mean, Michael? I mean, there's so many different... It means... Like, I think that... Like, when we talk about abortion, I'll say that I think that it is murder. I think that it's bad. But I think that women should have the right, and I think it's awful that women have to go through that. It is their choice. And it would be nice if we lived in a civilization where we didn't have to kill babies. Well, there might always have to be a situation where... So that would be where I'm coming... That would be an example of someone who would be, like, in a situation where I'm compassionate toward the women who are having them, and I feel for them.

But I also feel for the life and I feel for the fathers who don't really get the full... The full say on what's going to happen with the... Do you think that... Well, do you think that... I know, but do you think that they should in all situations have to say in that if there's some, like, medical danger to the woman carrying the child? Oh, medical danger. You know a man's going to be like, "Yeah, this is the smartest thing to do." But if you look at the statistics, most of the reasons why aren't... I'm not saying that. I'm not going to say... Like, I pulled up the data yesterday, if you want, and I can tell you like this.

Just to be clear about... Who's the thing? I'm pulling up the data, dude. Fuck, I became... Yeah, but this is the behavior that starts to concern me when you're pulling up data on abortions. I mean, here's the thing, man, like, listen, I don't... Yes, something is being terminated during an abortion, but to straight up call it murder at every single stage, I think, walks a line that becomes a perilous line to walk if you're not a woman. Because it's ultimately... it is something that takes place in their body, right? Like that's... Yes, but know it. But that's where it kind of begins and ends for me, just because I know that if I was a woman, maybe this just makes me selfish.

I would know that like, I probably wouldn't want other people telling me what I can and can't do. Assuming... I'm not saying... You can do it. I'm not saying that... I think that they should have the full right to do it. I have the two wants to opinion. Okay. A nuanced opinion is that you wish we lived in a society where there weren't need for abortion, which I think everyone would do it. And until we live in that society, women should full on have 100% right for it. Okay. Okay. So we're... So we walk this backwards, and then the actual process itself... But what is the data related to? That's...

So the data where I started to pull this up, I just was curious about it. Like, because you know, the narrative that we get all the time is like, she was raped, she has no money, or her life is in danger. So... No, no, no. Those are the extreme examples that are used to highlight how restrictive abortion legislation doesn't take into account. People aren't saying... No one... Just to be clear. People do not think that the majority number one reason is medical emergency. The number one reason for... No, people don't think that. People don't think that. People don't think that. They think that if you use that hyperbolic example of these outlier cases to show how a generalized sweeping legislation prohibiting certain types of abortions would really impact certain people, which we know that this stuff happens, that's why it's bad.

Also, I don't think the amount of women who are going out there, like no one wants to get an abortion. Even if you just look at it from a fiscal point, no one wants to go through it. So it's not like people are going out there like, "Hey, let me rack up as many abortions as I can." It's a very traumatic process. I mean, there's an emotional resonance, a psychic unconscious resonance. It's not this fun-loving... Sorry, no one. Sorry, just go back. We shouldn't say no one. We should acknowledge that there's probably a handful of women that really are fucked up. Three. There's three. Yes, sure. Sure, sure.

Again, you don't have to get that specific when we're talking about these things. I don't have to count. I know. I know. But my point is that that's an important nuance too, is that it's not like people are presenting the only reason women get abortions is for a medical emergency or they were raped. It's because for a whole host of other reasons, it's not practical. It's not, it doesn't make sense. They don't want it. It wasn't in their plans. There's a whole bunch of reasons, but it doesn't diminish that a choice. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the whole thing too, is it like it is like, so that's why, like if you can't acknowledge that it's murder, then you're also saying to the women that are doing it, like they don't want to, they don't necessarily want to do this.

They feel bad. It's like, it's traumatic. Like they, we all know when they're very close to many women that have had it. I would never say that they shouldn't do it by acknowledging it what it is. I know, like, I can say like, but you're not going to shout in their face. It's murder either. It's my point. Yeah. I'm not like, you trust them. No, you trust them to deal with those internals where they were forced or they had to make a decision to do this. And I'm not, I'm not belittling them. I'm not saying that I'm saying like, they had to take a hard choice. I could not do it. Like it's like the band that go into war and you don't know that though.

You don't murder. But you don't know it. You don't know it. Michael, that's the whole point where I think a lot of this stuff gets conflated. I don't know what you don't know what you would do in that situation. You're not a woman. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why like I have mad respect for the women that, that not that I have respect. Like, yeah, you go get them abortions, but I have respect for the fact that it's like the women that have gone through it. It's like, I know that it's, it's traumatic. It's really hard. And I feel for them. And like my heart goes out to them. And because like, I don't know what it's like.

I don't think that they go into it like super excited. But if we can't call it what it is, we can't start looking for a bigger solution. Like how can we, it's like we know that men go off to war and they have to murder people and people are like, oh, you know, there's a, there's a common idea lately over the past few decades that these men are murderers and they're baby killers and stuff. And it's like they were just, again, like I have a lot of military friends and they, they did it because it was like, not the same as abortion, but it's like the similar thing. It's like, this is just their karma.

This is like, this is their experience. And this is what they, it's a path forward for them to get out of the, the projects or whatever. Yeah. And which is almost designed. The military heavily recruits in impoverished areas and people in working class areas because they know those people. Yeah. And so they didn't have a shot of somebody who's coming from the professional class living in an urban area. And sometimes that happens, but it's very rare. And so then they're, you know, like shunned and like you're awful and they're doing kind of a service force just as those women are doing a service force in a way to, but not bringing a child into their life that's going to cause them more emotional, financial, whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The great thing about the pill and abortions was that when they became legalized is that they really, you know, crime dropped dramatically afterwards because people were able to like set aside having a child during, you know, when they shouldn't, when they shouldn't be having kids most likely or they felt that they should be, I get it. But, but so, so when I say this and I say like it's, it's a murder, you get what I'm saying? Like it's like, it's like, it's like it's triggering murder, but it's true. Here's the distinction that I would make for a lot. Would you not say it's true that it's a murder?

No, because I don't think most people look at when they step on an aunt and I'm not comparing an aunt to a baby. I'm using an analogy that as that's an act of murder. Is it murder because you snuffed out living life? If you want to categorize it like that, yeah, when you pull up a plant out of the ground to do, cook it as a vegetable, is that murdering it? Because you're detaching it from its life force and it can no longer grow. And it also remembers the context like, is this person intending to murder out of malice or hate or premeditation? Is it murder? If like a mother, let me ask you this question.

What word would you use instead of murder? I would use that they got it an abortion. They aborted the life. That is not a word. They killed it. They aborted the life. The life that was growing, it was aborted. It was terminated. It was finished. It wasn't. Listen, again, I don't think that abortion is something people are seeking out wanting to do. I think these are difficult situations that are truthfully life and death situations if you want to call it that, but to use a charged word like murder probably isn't going to do much good in the conversation relative to the amount of harm and confusion it can bring into it.

Does that make sense? I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree 100% that it's like it's because especially because like the group that's used it in the past have been like pretty intense, you know, it's the people standing outside with picots of posters of murdered babies and all that shit. And I think that -- so I think that, yeah, it's coming with a charged word. Just like the patriarchy is a charged word. Yeah. But I -- no, no, that's not the same. Michael, this is a problem that I think this is where I get concerned about the right peeling and the alt rating and the moderates and the centrist stuff.

That's not an equal comparison. The patriarchy is an observable social and hierarchical construct. You can look at different facets of it and say, yes, this is what makes up a patriarchy. Murder is -- not as nuanced as the word patriarchy. It's silly to even compare those two things. It's not murder is a simple act that we have defined is something that's even in a wall that says this is murder. These people have found you guilty, not of manslaughter, not of some lesser crime, but of murder. So it's something that has a very well-defined place in our society. Patriarchy is a codified system of things.

It's -- that's my point, like it's not like the word came up out of nowhere now because it has a memetic quality to it and people are using it indiscriminately. It doesn't mean that it isn't an actual thing and this is where like kind of the blurring of facts and cherry-picking things I think gets weird. It's like this is not something that is really up for debate. We can agree that people use it recklessly. The word patriarchy and misapprehend what it actually means and in the same way that when people say masculine and feminine when talking about archetypal energies, if they only think about penis and vagina and genders, they're missing a broader point.

So there's multiple things going on there but you can't compare the word murder to patriarchy in terms of how they're being used. Does that -- I mean I hope I -- I hope I may -- for myself that's pretty clear. I think it may -- I agree it makes a lot of sense what you're saying. I just think that this is where it gets place -- I told you yesterday it's really uncomfortable in this space that I'm in right now because I opted to make -- I've made a conscious decision to begin looking at the other side and so -- and that's based on -- I've told you the MIT study where they took Twitter -- did I tell you about this?

They took Twitter -- journalists and it's like if you look at conservatives, the conservatives would follow both conservatives and liberals. If you look at the liberals they'll only look at liberals. And as I talked to friends who don't live in New York and L.A. and again L. in New York was the one that really like changed me and started making me look at friends as possible victims of society's ills and all this other stuff and blah blah blah rather than looking at them as like individuals. You know it's in that wacky ass mind. As I started talking to my friends that are living in back in Spokane and living throughout the rest of the country and I would ask them just a simple question.

If you were to guess conservatives, what would they listen to? They'd say conservatives and liberals and I'd say what about liberals and just liberals. And I'd say well where do you come up with that information? Like do they have friends that are conservatives and have friends and you've been a liberal for all these years and you've never listened to us. And not just you but liberals just wouldn't listen to us. I've heard this from a lot of different things and I think I actually really get the sentiment and I think that's happened. I mean in this local community a friend who's been here building stuff for a few years was saying that there used to be a time like in the before the 2000s where there were liberals and Republicans and Democrats and they would all kind of come together as a community and they might not agree about certain things but there did come a point where the liberal kind of progressive quote unquote Democrat leaning people came in and kind of took everything over and just shunned everyone else.

And we're like this is how you do it. This is what's going on and he said he saw 15, 16, 20 years ago what led to this shocking Trump victory and this current kind of identity politics things happening. So I want to be clear that there is validity to what you're saying and one of the reasons I brought up that Frederick Douglass thing in the beginning is because that really is resonant with me that people could objectively agree that something is wrong but then have radical differences amongst themselves about the specific way it was wrong or the way we should go about. So it's never a simple one.

But I think that is something that's happened this cynical dismissive view that has kind of been a quality of both coasts of this country certainly isn't helping anyone. It's not making things better. We definitely agree on that. Yeah and I guess where I'm what like I was getting with that too is that this is uncomfortable for me because I've been you know I've been beating the Trump when Trump got elected the first thing I was like okay this is clearly like I'm trying to like be like trying to find the bride and the whole thing you know like I was. Me too. I was like so you know and I was like this is the side this is the last this is the last shake of the patriarchy you know like the thing everybody was saying I was sure doing the whole thing and you know I really believed it I really wanted to bring away this like toxic energy and blah blah blah and and so here I am as someone who's been you know my podcast bringing on so many feminists on there so and you know looking at me too movement I look back at how within my industry nobody would talk about how the models were being treated and I brought them on again the voice before is a voice like I've been an activist on my on my podcast without a doubt without a doubt and being a provocateur with my work and like really like being on the progressive side for me to listen to conservative conservative angle and then deliver it back to my my liberal friends I'm like I'm you know I feel uncomfortable I appreciate it because it's something you're giving us an opportunity at least me to talk to someone I know and respect and care about and hear what their thoughts are on this I think too often that we don't have that connection and bridge available and that just makes things worse so I get why it's uncomfortable for you because if people are meeting you with like hey you're a fucking idiot that's not very fun not only that but I don't want to slip into populism fascism Marxism I don't want to slip into these like extremes I don't want to slip into yeah and I think the thing is within the the liberal spiritual kind of crowd it's it's like it's a it's a privileged crowd for the most part not all but a lot of them it's like it's a very privileged space I can agree more I couldn't and and there they're they become like so clueless to what the other group is going through which is the most people aren't in this privileged class and so the vast majority if you have time if you have time to like I was looking up the the pronouns at one point and there's like a pronoun if you identify differently what was it it was like if you identify differently when you're near different bodies of water there's a pronoun for that wait what is it cuz I'm gonna start using it that sounds awesome I don't know what's like what about one if this for the phases of the moon cuz I want to do that one you that's the thing is you could doing it and then it's like it's at the point where it's like if you get in this thing you can do that because you have the time and space to do that some people that are just like trying to build fucking bridges and shit and trying to like get the roads in order I think they don't if if you're a kid is up trans in Ohio or something right you're gonna it's gonna be really hard for you and I think it's really good that there's all these people kind of explaining like hey there's you know differences and pronouns and genders and and the way that people identify I think that's really great and for the most part it's like if if your buddy is all of a sudden saying like transitioning into a girl it might be confusing but if it's your buddy it's your buddy and you're gonna just be like all right you're a girl now you're a woman now I think that's like the general like with what's happening in 2019 by 2019 I think most the most across the country that's how people would handle it so I think that a lot of the good messages are coming out from the liberal but the liberal side but I think that some people have been so yes focused on being like you everybody must now and if you don't do this there's a lot of people that were in the trans movement that are like annoyed now that they're actually leaving their pronouns behind and say stop calling me they then you can just call me she now because I don't I realize it's so toxic over there with in that space just as it was toxic within the conservative space.

And I think that one of the ways to do this is I think a lot of liberals and people with time need to buck up and they need to do the work and start looking at the other side because I think that it's it's a slippery slope and we all need each other as we go through this because we're not going to get to the other side of this. By liberals just listening to one or two friends by in conservatives keep getting beat beaten up for shit or by it's no no Michael Michael I don't think that I'm there's a lot of people that went before me through this and I God bless the man because I can't imagine what it would have been like to be four years ago to be one of these people that that left the you know like that ventured out outside the liberal silo and started to look into this shit.

>> Well you know I I my only taste of this is that I have been critical of Obama as a president just because I feel most presidents in modern history are essentially narcissistic sociopaths as best as I can tell it's a very special type of breed even if they seem cool and I know the blowback I've gotten from friends who certain think a certain way would vehemently disagree with that. >> But I think what you're saying and why I I really appreciate you hearing you say it is it that is what has to happen and I think this it does come from the left it also comes from the right to be fair there is this kind of smugness it comes from both side it's not.

>> Because they think they've they've they've they've figured out like you got to like you can't talk to them without having facts that you got their language when you're like why would you pull it back is like because I want to talk with them of course and it's their their viewpoint I got to speak their language yes exactly that's really important but I mean what you're saying is true like both everyone has to listen to other people if you don't you're going to be fucked like 100% put it this way like one of my actions to you talking about some of this stuff with me and I think we do still disagree on a few little things here and there sure I'm sure it's fair I love it we can disagree and still give you shit about you want to hear something really interesting about that conversation no 100% doing it no question but I spoke to another one of my friends who I really respect and admire who grew up in a culture that is aggressively doing that and he felt exactly like you And I was surprised and I think you said ask people and I asked someone and I was surprised. So it is something that has more nuance and resonance than I was giving it credit to. So I mean, yeah, man, like, I, what I was saying is, is one of my reactions to you talking about this stuff could have been like, well, Michael's a fucking idiot.

I don't want to talk to him anymore. What a crazy person. I don't want to engage with him. And that would be a travesty of all travesties because what we ultimately came here and figured out is that. We both have the exact same viewpoint regardless of your position and identity and what you believe in listening and language and language to a divided language. Yeah, but listening to other people and trying to understand their perspective and being empathetic to it is the only way forward. It's literally the only thing we can do as a hundred percent. Yeah, man. We're on the same. I'm glad that we're saying this because there's so many more pieces that we can break apart and we can discuss because it, but that is like the general lay of the land. It's, it's, it's kind of like there. There's like the, the extremist right and there's the extremist left. And I think that for years, like if you look at conservative media, we all know Fox News like Fox News and then now Breitbart, right?

Yeah. Well, for liberal progressive media, let's list it all off MSNBC CNN. Um, whatever the fuck, you know, there's, it's all liberal bias. And so, so we've been fed this, this likes Fox bad. Breitbart bad. But those are the only, those are the only two voices. So of course, it's going to be extremist things that come out of it. Um, but people have to tune in a little bit. If they're listening to 90% of. My dad does that. My dad actively does that. He's liberal. We agree on almost all of this stuff. And he has a neighbor who is very Trumpian and just, he hears his opinions and doesn't agree with him, but his respect one, you know, is friendly, but he purposely tunes into Breitbart and Fox News to get the other perspectives.

His opinion hasn't changed, but he thinks it's important to do that. And I think it is important. So I think it's super important because like, you know, one of the things that happened yesterday was that you heard about Trump. Um, is trying to, there's two articles that came out. It was fucking hilarious. Uh, one was Trump is trying to make a hold on. I want to get the right. I want to get the headline proper. Hold on. Sorry. It is I'm literally baking bread as we're talking. I'm about to put in the oven. So. All right. It's pretty cool. That is super cool. What can I sourdough? No, it's mainly just bakers, flour and some wheat flour, but as a new recipe, I'm going to, I'm going to make rye too.

I was just going to say it makes a rye. Oh my god. You look at this. I'm putting the mic down for one second. Well, I already found it. Okay. Tell me. Oh, I was in my head. I was like, oh, maybe you'll put the headphones down. I can talk to you about. So the headline was from on Breitbart was Trump to launch worldwide fight to decriminalize homosexuality. And so, of course, it's like you're like, this is really great. You know, it's like a step forward. He hasn't been the best with LGBT rights. You know, but this is at least something. This is something. And then I messaged a friend that she's very similar to me.

She has been, she's an artist. She's very liberal, very progressive, but she's also like trying to understand the opposing view. And I was like, oh, Jesus, this will piss off some liberals. So again, the headline is the nut of it is he's trying to decriminalize homosexuality. And the first group that ended up getting pissed off about it was out magazine. And they were like, don't trust Trump because he's doing this. And it's like, couldn't you have just been like, this is a maybe a good step forward. It was just like, don't trust them. And it's like, and I think that's why people have to like look at both sides because it's like, this is all that out magazine was doing was teaching you don't trust Donald Trump, which is not just Donald Trump.

It's just maybe not the, just to be clear, maybe not the worst lesson to take away from Donald Trump. He's not a trustworthy person. That's anyone can agree on, whether you're a consumer of discipline. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. But he was doing something that was objectively, potentially positive. Well, I think, listen, again, that's something that you can look at with nuance, right? Out magazine, I can imagine would be saying something like that because some of his policies on transgender people in the military and other kind of protections that were enacted under previous administrations.

So they could be saying, Hey, this is kind of like a peace offering. Don't take it right now. Not because we don't think it's a positive step, but because we don't trust this guy yet. He hasn't proven that he can do it, which is one of the many reactions one could have. And I get from your perspective where a lot of people's perspective, it's like, Hey, well, shouldn't we at least look at it as a positive step? I mean, it is something that he's not saying we want to kill all the gay people. So. Well, yeah, yeah. Look at it. Look at it from someone who's a right of center, who might be on the fence. And, you know, the joke I made with the friends is like, let's see how long it takes before the girls get pissed off that he's doing this.

It was like immediately like there was, I could find an article about it. But imagine someone who's like a conservative, and then they just see headlines where it's like, Oh, you know, someone said that to them, like, wait till the liberals get pissed, or the LibTards, wait till the LibTards get pissed. What's going to happen is that they're going to immediately see that headline and they're going to, it's going to be, they're going to be stuck in that silo. So it's like the words in the language that out magazine could have used. I'm not a copywriter. They're clearly writing to their base. But if there were, like, if there was like a, if there's more conservative outlets, maybe there would be a conservative gay one that would come out at one point.

Hopefully that comes out where they say like, it's just that the thing is that they're not like a major outlet. Yeah, but here's something to keep in mind, right? And this is what I tend to look at in all facets of society, from art to politics to science, all these things is names and labels are constantly changing. The Republican Party of 1842 was not the Republican Party of today. Conservatism also meant something completely different than the party that holds up itself as the Conservative Party, the GOP right now, just from 30 years ago, fiscal, you know, austerity and not big government was a big part of what was going on.

Now, it's completely different. It's just, you know, we like the parts of government that help us in our cronies for the most part, you know, the parts that help other people. We're not a fan of that part. So these things are constantly shifting. And I think it's important to look at kind of aid the broader underlying causes because you brought up something a couple times now that strikes me, which is the working class people, the people who are building the buildings who are just in the systems that have been created. And that's a very important group of people to think about, but it also cuts to the core of that if the system is broken and kind of fatally designed to oppress people, which it seems like it's doing a pretty good job of, how do we as individuals begin to upend that system.

Okay, so go ahead. No, no, no, please, please, please. Yeah, it sounds like you have a solution. No, I don't have a solution, but I know that it's probably not going to be some grand sweeping thing from the top down, that it would most likely start with individual people doing exactly what you and I have been suggesting, which is talking to the other side, talking with people who disagree with you in a respectful way. Maybe you disagree on 99% of the issues, but being able to disagree peacefully and amicably is something we should all strive for. It's not always possible. If you came to me and said, Hey, guess what? I think all abortion is murder and every woman who did it should be sentenced to death. Well, I would probably emphatically, we would have a much more contentious conversation, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand the other person's perspective.

So I do think that's basically where the solution is for this stuff. So it's just to emphasize and underscore that again. Let me, let me just throw this in for a second with the whole murder thing. I agree with you that like the word is definitely loaded. How about we say that it is a murder? It's a form of murder. I don't agree on play with it. Talk to some female friends and talk to some women and play with it openly to like female friends and women and who've had abortions and they're here in LA and they're definitely progressive and liberal minded. And obviously I've got some flinches from some and then others were kind of like nodding their head. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that. Listen, I think for everyone, because it's a language that the ones that are going to try to trigger use and they're not going to stop using it.

No, it's not going to be used, but I'm saying the purpose of using that as a trigger word probably doesn't equal or surpass. It's like actual making change. That's my point. It's more like what I'm saying is that you're going to have, what's the name of that family that protests like any time Western Baptist chart? Yeah. Yeah. Westboro. Westboro. That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Like Westboro is always going to be standing out there. So it's like if we can just like use the language. It's like the same thing with the patriarchy thing. The patriarchy word's not going to go away. It shouldn't go away concept and murder. Murder is not going to go away too. Like their language is not going to go away. But patriarchy is a thing. The patriarchy isn't some, it's a thing. It's not something that's used as a political.

It can be used as a cudgel to beat people down to be a jerk of the patriarchy. But it is an actual system, right? You understand that that's why it's not the same as a murder is specifically a murder. You and I can disagree about at what point does it become murder? Is it ever murder? Those things. But the patriarchy is a thing. It's like saying. So what you're doing though is you're discounting like these. It's that it can be a border. Can abortion be a murder? Yes. 100%. No, you know, like a year ago, six months ago, I would be 100% like nodding. Yes. Yes. No, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm saying like moving like to move the whole discussion forward. Can I be honest? Can I be honest about this? Please lie to me. No, no, no. Just related to a situation that I think that I don't always agree with Jerry Seinfeld. I think he's so much detached from the normal human person because he's of his excessive wealth and success.

But during that whole kind of Louis C.K. Chris Rock, Ricky Gervais Seinfeld thing that popped up where they use the N word and Louis C.K. says it and Chris Rock kind of tacitly condones it and Ricky Gervais jumps in. I do think Seinfeld was the most respectful of the situation when he was like, I don't think you can say that word. Like that to me is the proper response. He's not sticking out of position and saying you should or shouldn't. He's just saying, I don't think that's appropriate. And for me, what I'm saying is when it comes to situations like women's choice and abortion, I as I don't feel that it's my place to condemn unless it is an objectively witnessable act of murder to say that we're going to use throw the word murder around for this. It seems like a much more complex situation than murder is. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Again, like I said, I would be 100% behind you six months to a year ago.

And then I'm just trying to understand what has changed in those six months to be because I realized this, the world is not going to live in a silo. It's not the silo is just going to get bigger so that we're going to have to experience opposing languages and viewpoints. So, if you have, it's like if you have that loaded word and, you know, words can trigger me as well. I'm not like special and, you know, words can, words can, well, you know, freak me out. I have to learn to work on myself. And this is actually something that you taught me a long time ago, where when I was working on the mine pod, Instagram, this back in the rhombus, Ragu days.

It's like, if I post something and someone gets offended, you said, well, that's something that they need to work out. You know, this is, and to put it in context for the listeners, that was like probably when, at least for me, it was like the most, when I was like the most. I don't know what world I was in, but you know, you remember those days, like, I was scared to post anything anywhere very sensitive to everybody. Yes, yes. In every possible way, I stopped shooting for a large part because I didn't want to offend people and I didn't want to be judged by people. And whatever I did, I was, to this day, whatever I do, friends are surprised when I show them the amount of hate and judging and everything for the simplest things, they're just blown away. And I send them screenshots all the time. And it's like, Jesus Christ, this is really your world of people just like hating on you.

And so, my thing is like, people have to toughen up. You know what I mean? Like, just toughen the fuck up. Like, we've got to do it. We have to be aware. Like, friends are so sensitive. Like, I have a friend that she's so sensitive and she just went to Esslyn and she's a sweet person, but it's like, she's clueless to the world and how it really works. But she's tough enough. She's unlike most of the people from the spiritual world. You can't offend her. You can't trigger her. Can I say something about toughening up and all this stuff? I generally agree. And I think, again, there's nuance to when someone says that what they're really saying. But I think people who can laugh about stuff, even tragic things and things that are injustices and unfair and objectively terrible, that's the type of tough I think people need to develop. It's not this kind of numb yourself. Don't think anything can't be nothing can be offensive.

Because, like, I can laugh pretty much with any terrible joke someone's going to give. But if I sense the person saying it or where it's emanating from is hateful or lacking kindness in a real way. Not just oblivious to it, but like purposely negative, then it's not being tough. Even if they're not offended by anything. So I think that's the kind of toughness that I think needs to be developed more than anything is like the ability to laugh things off in a genuine way. And so if someone's standing, the thing is that if someone is like, "Man, I really got to get this abortion. This just isn't going to work." And they're going to the abortion clinic. And someone yells out, "It's murder! You're a murder!"

And if they're just like, "Oh my God, I'm not saying tough enough to the point where you're just cynical and you're like, "Fuck you!" But it's just like, yep, they're able to find some humor in it as they go through it because we're not going to be able to stop the Westboro Baptist Church. And I'm using them as an example, but it trails off more. There's more of them out there than just them. No, they're people with very strong opinions on abortion. And so people within our community also have to respect, you know, to go back into what you said. I agree. Like, yes, it is a system. And it's like, if you're aware of it, so this is the thing. You're aware of the nuances of it. Maybe just as if some of us can go over there to the ultra conservatives and talk to them about using different words for it.

Coming up with a new language, maybe a good idea would be for the people that are coming to the left to say, "Hey, let's come up with some really more fine pieces of what's happening here." Because there are dumb people that hear the word patriarchy and they're really just thinking it means men. They really are. We could be looking at this also from another level that's, I think, a lot more simple, which is that nuance and subtlety doesn't really sell in our current system and selling... What happens to soul doesn't mean it won't sell? Of course not. I mean, I think one has to believe that if they want to envision a future that's not just monopolized by soul is corporations.

So I think that's an important ideal, but it is how it works now. And until people can kind of go beneath that and maybe recognize that some of the voices, the loudest voices on both sides, maybe aren't right 100% of the time, all of the time. But this is a complicated, evolving process for a lot of people, but what I think's important here is that a lot of people are tuned into this. I mean, these conversations that we're having now, despite coming from some different places on certain issues, is not different from a lot of other conversations I have with other people, even when we agree. It's like, people are feeling that this is going on. And I think you mentioned something yesterday that really struck me. It's like, it does feel kind of like a birthing process, kind of a transformative, like, we're going to come out of the other side, what's going to happen.

So, yeah, well, what's our intention? I think our intention is to build culture for the next generation. We don't, we don't want the next generation to be like, dude, you guys had your shot, you fucking blew it. And it just is like, you know, the baby boomers, whoever, like, we don't want, we don't want people acting in a way that we're acting toward them, toward us. And so it's like, well, if we're going to work on something and maybe, maybe they've been working on stuff that we don't even notice, like, you know, the Internet. Sorry, sidebar, Parkland Kids, Fahrenheit, 119, the movie. Michael Moore walks into the room and he's like, you know, maybe one of the things that our generation did, well, as we raised you, and the girl's like, the Internet raised us.

What? It's like, yeah, it's like, come on. Come on, and Michael Moore's just like, oh, yes, children are the future. You're so right. Oh, yes. I don't know any. I haven't seen any of that stuff. I think there is. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen it. I think we're birthing something and I think that we're like, we just want people to get along. We want people to appreciate each other. You know, there's like a lot of hate and pain. And I really didn't want to have this conversation with you after we agreed to it because I was like, I don't, I knew that. I was like, I don't want to. I don't. This is very uncomfortable because it wasn't so bad. Was it?

No, no, no. I mean, when you said I was like, fuck, yeah, fuck you. No, let's do this. I know. I know the whole process. Yeah, of course. We both know the process, but it's like, you know, within our community, and especially like from where I'm coming from, like, I'm trying to still get work. I'm trying to get steady clients and trying to buy my art. And all they have to do is hear me talking on a podcast about portion is murder. But you're obviously not. You're not. I don't. I'm not left with the impression that that's how you feel that that was your overall statement. I don't think a lot of people are going to come away with that. I think what I notice as your friend more than anything else is you are very open minded.

One of the most open minded people I've known. You're also incredibly stubborn. So it means that if you find something that you like or identify with, regardless of what it is, and you really can like make it a part of you, you get very into it. And I've seen that happen a lot. And I think part of this is why I think subtlety and nuance is so important with this shit is because I think there are a lot of really good conclusions and insights you've gleaned from, let's say, the other side of the coin in terms of political or ideological viewpoints that lead us to the same exact place. And that's encouraging. Listen, the truth is, no one is ever going to agree on everything all the time.

It's impossible. It's just literally impossible. It doesn't happen in small little clicks of people. It's never going to happen for the world. But the ability to disagree with people and still kind of overall agree with what we're trying to do here, that's that to me is one side of the spiritual war that you're talking about. I don't do it as a war so much. The other side is the people who are the battle, the battle, the back. The people who are like saying the people who are trying to actively exploit the generosity and good intentions of most people, right? Most people just want to be comfortable and nice to each other and support it and be loved and love other people. That's pretty much everyone's primary motive.

The systems we've kind of put on top of our natural being, the way of being, have clearly not to get too biblical about it, but they've corrupted a lot of that kind of innocence and natural drive we have as people. I think right now what we're grappling with is the awareness of that fact, but also not having an exact clear solution like, oh, I just get up and do this every day and then it'll get fixed. And that is a very deep psychic trauma that could be expressed through actual experience, traumatic experiences in life, or just something that's felt by people. But again, I do feel that more and more people are feeling this and talking about it. And I think as long as you could be open minded and recognize that we don't come to a conclusion and then stay on that conclusion for the rest of our lives.

That rarely is what happens. Dude, do you know about the Overton window? No. Oh, you're going to love this concept. Okay, so, because it goes into what you're saying, but we're not always going to be there. And that's the thing is that I think I'm stubborn because, like, I'm trying to like, when I was stubborn about spirituality and everything when the fashion industry was like, just shut the fuck up and focus on shapes and colors. You know, and now I look around and everybody's meditating and it's gone to the point where they're just drinking green juice and that'll solve all the problems. Yeah, but you kind of, you get what I'm saying, like, I go into these corners so so that don't make sense, essentially.

I respect that. I respect that. So the Overton window. So imagine an x, y. I read about it while you were talking. I get it now. Okay, well, so you're going to keep explaining it. No one else did that. So keep explaining it. Yeah, well, if you there's different. So the thing is, like, if you look at the visuals, there's two different ones. There's ones where it's just left and right. And then there's others where it's left, right, up, down. But the idea for that. So the listeners, if you imagine, just like, take out a sheet of paper or just imagine a big rectangle. And on the left, you might have extreme left politics. It's a political science term. And any political science scientist is going to tell me I'm fucking this up.

I'll do. I'll tell you what they are. It's unthinkable, radical, acceptable, sensible, popular policy. That's kind of like a sliding spectrum. I'm talking about if you have, like, what is it? It's like, hold on. Extremeness. I got to Google this shit. No, it's like, yes. So you're talking about that's like a left, right graph, correct? No, it's the vertical one. More freedom, less freedom. Overton window. Hold on. Basically, this is what it says, just so people can hear what it is. So I'm going to find one that actually shows the window, though. I know. Let me just give the quick summary, right?

The Overton window is the range of ideas tolerated in public discourse, also known as the window of discourse. The term refers to Joseph P. Overton, who claimed that an idea's political viability depends mainly on whether it falls within the window rather than on politicians' individual preferences. According to Overton, the window contains the range of policies that a politician can recommend without appearing too extreme to gain or keep public office and the current climate of public opinion. So it's basically saying, like, you got to be in this range to actually be generally accepted by the populace. That's the idea of the overton.

Yeah, thank you for just reading. That made a lot more sense. And so if you imagine a square kind of moving around, or it doesn't have to be a square, but it's just like kind of a shape that moves around, if you were to say 20 years ago in California, you said gay marriage is going to be a thing. People would be like, them, I think it's going to get married. It was not a thing. Now you look at it and it's across the country. It's a thing. So the window had shifted from them faggots to, hey, these are human beings that are getting married. And you had to have some outliers that continue to push it, push it, push it.

You look at the wall, right? And you have Trump, who, when he first was doing this, actually, sorry, if you look at the wall and you back up and you look at when Obama was talking about a wall. Other talking about it was like, whoa, that radical Muslim is what the conservatives were saying, right? And then you look at now, or you look at like two years ago, and it was like that, those same conservatives are like, yeah, this man, he knows what's, what's up. Now this idea of the wall, it's kind of brought into the fray of like, you know, maybe this would be like an okay thing. So it's like the window had shifted and moved over there. Whether you like it or not, the window moves around.

And there's different ways that the window can move around. Some of it moves toward good things, some of it moves toward bad things. But the reality is the window is constantly moving and we have to be aware. And this is where I'm really like kind of calling out to my progressive liberal friends. It's like, hey guys, the window is fucking moving. And when I talk to you, you kind of sound like two years or a year ago, two years ago, you're really not understanding where the window is moving at this point. And by being aware of this and what's happening, it's basically the zeitgeist is what it is with the window is.

But you know, being aware of it and seeing that part of the big thing with the window is that liberals have to like talk with conservatives, like conservatives, not all of them, but many of them are waiting to have a conversation. And they're frustrated because whenever they ask to have a conversation or a debate, rather than people coming in and saying like, yeah, I'll debate, I'll have a conversation like a fun. Let's try to find like, where we agree, where we disagree. The liberals don't want to do it for the most part. Yeah, I hear that. I think that there's probably nuance there as well, but I do think that I've observed kind of if someone, it's kind of this like punch a Nazi thing.

You know, like, yes, 100% punch Nazis, they're terrible. We don't even want to have. And then if you call everybody a Nazi, then just punch everybody. Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. And that's something that I think a lot of people miss that transition of if we're just calling everyone a Nazi. And listen, there are some tendencies where people are doing things that are objectively like racist and terrible, like, you don't ostracize them from every part of society, but you let them know that this is not where we're headed as a group because I don't think people want those divisors, those lines being put up by people who are afraid of other people because they don't understand or for whatever reason.

But listen, I've been talking, this is the longest synchronicity in history. I really appreciate it, though, man. It's meant all of my expectations. I'm not joking at all. But let's do the last few questions and then talk about this more later. All right, what's your favorite color? It's a dumb question, move on. What's your favorite color? I know, I'm an adult. You don't have favorite colors when you get older. What's the color you like right now? I just saw the color blue, but then I looked at it. All right, blue, blue, locked in, can't change. No, blue, blue. I'm looking at green. They're all my favorite color.

I just let it be noted that Michael's favorite color is blue. What's your favorite number? What's your favorite number? Three and eight. All right, you can only have one. Everyone else gets as many as they want. You can only have three. What's your favorite animal? Your favorite animal. Hold on. I'm trying to think of a joke. I wanted to have one that murders this baby. That's -- I just saw that. It's a crab. There's a type of crab. A crab makes so much sense. What's a practical -- Can I just clarify with that with the whole, like, murder it's baby. Like, that's the thing. It's like because I'm -- I am -- like, you get that I'm, like, joking, right?

I know that you are not saying it's murder of a baby and that you're being provocative. And I'm not making fun of people that have done that. Of course, you mentioned that you have friends who've had abortions. You're -- people who have had abortions wouldn't hang out with you if they thought -- you thought they were murdering their babies because they were bad people. So I hope that that is -- Murder baby would be a cool band name, though. It's not a bad name for certain bands. Last question. What's a practical tip that's helped you in your life that you could share with people listening? Find the people that agree with you. Only talk to them.

I love it. I love it. And we will never speak again, Michael. All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon. I'm in. Peace. [ Music ] [ Music ] [ Music ] [ Music ] [ Music ] [ Music ] Thanks for listening to that episode. Michael, a unique, wonderful person. I kind of look at this as him engaging with ideas that I think he will understand more and more over time. But I do think there is something to what he says about the liberal, progressive-minded people, quote unquote, who are very antagonistic towards any opposing viewpoints. And yes, if you're a Nazi, it's okay to be antagonistic. They're not going to meet you halfway. And that's a very valid point.

I hear that a lot. But if someone disagrees with you or has come to a different conclusion than you, try to understand why. That can maybe help more than just yelling at them and calling them stupid. And this is a problem that I think a lot of people have. It's hard for them to understand that maybe someone who voted for Trump doesn't consider themselves a racist. And understanding what that means. My contention, as everybody is racist, it is almost impossible to live in this culture without being racist. It's really, really, really hard. And you have to own that. Because if you don't, you sound like an idiot when you go up there and say, "I don't have a racist bone in my body.

I have black friends. I got Asian friends. I got all types of friends." And it's like, eh, it's not really what defines racist activity. And if you're supporting and not questioning a system that is prosper, you know, is built on racism and sexism, then, eh, what a racist. It's okay. It's okay. We're all a little racist. Own it. Acknowledge it. Look at it. Try to figure out how to fix it. And then we can move forward. So, this episode, I know it's long. If you made it to this point, holy shit. Congratulations. You've gotten through the longest episode of synchronicity, and I commend you for that.

We will have other guests next week. Following weeks, we got a lovely string of people coming up. I promise you, you'll enjoy. That's it for this week. And I will see you next week. Polymarket is proud to be the world's top choice to trade football. You mean soccer? Right. Soccer. Polymarket is proud to be the world's top choice to trade soccer. Know the game better than the market? You can earn cash trading on tournament, and game outcomes, golds, assists, saves, corners, and much, much more. Download the Polymarket app and use code "Free50" to unlock $50 free for your first trade. Trading not available in all jurisdictions. Check local regulations before trading.

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