Mother's Calling with Ambika

(upbeat music)

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week is Ambica. And she has a new album out called Mother's Calling, which you should definitely check out. I have links to it in this podcast, episode, page, actual episode, iTunes, wherever you're checking out, the links are there. Definitely check it out. I'm not just big upping, I'm not just big upping it because she is a guest and a friend. It's really, really good. Previous guest, Lily Cushman, produced it, and she's a Berkeley graduate, my alma mater, and she's fucking good. Just like, go check it out. You're really gonna enjoy it, especially if you like Kiriton.

Even if you don't, I copped in this episode. I'm not a huge Kiriton person, but good Kiriton is awesome. So definitely check it out. I think you'll enjoy it. I get no kickbacks for that whatsoever. It's just good and I think you'll like it. We talk about a lot of different things in this, and we also don't talk a lot of different things. We could have spoken for a lot more. I found out a lot about what she's been going through in this episode and kind of what led up to this album and just kind of her particular path, spanning a couple of decades, even more just kind of, you know, seeing what's up in a Bakti community and a spiritual community, what that means, some of the drama that goes on there.

Coincidentally, or synchronistically, whichever one you're inclined to believe, probably synchronistically, if you're listening to this, I had another episode last week that was a solo episode, and I actually really like it. But I don't think it's suitable for public consumption. I don't name names specifically, but I kind of air some grievances out just 'cause I needed some level of catharsis to process things that were just triggering me. They're clearly not gonna stop, like, you know, people who I think are, you know, shady and doing unethical things. They're not, I'm not gonna blot them out.

It's not my mission to, you know, expose people for being ding-dongs. But, so I needed to find some way to deal with it. So I got it out in like a half hour thing. I'm thinking what I'm gonna do is release it on Patreon. And anyone who signs up for like even like a $1 level will have access to it. And I'm doing this not because I'm gonna make money from it. Like, you know, if everyone who listened to this podcast put $1, that'd be amazing. But it's kind of like a gate. I guarantee anyone who would be able to tell that I was referring to them. I'm not gonna use any names, but anyone who felt some kind of way, you know, wouldn't pay me money ever.

I'm sure at this point to listen to it. So it's kind of like a gate 'cause I don't really want this to be me airing out grievances. It was a way for me to process kind of stuff that had happened to me, with me that I was involved with, people I was involved with. And it's just like, I don't wanna hang on to that shit anymore. So it was actually pretty effective. I really think I turned a corner earlier this week when I recorded it, I immediately felt better. And I was kind of like getting moody and grumpy all the time. So I think I'm gonna put it out. I haven't gotten feedback from friends or family on whether that's wise to do, but I don't know, felt good.

And I think it's true for me. And if you're listening to this podcast, that's hopefully a part of it. So I am gonna put that out probably in the next week or so. So yeah, I don't wanna short change. This episode is fucking great. We really get into some cool stuff. You'll find out a lot about City Mop, who is a mysterious but very prominent character in the name Karolibaba known as Maharaji kind of tradition. And I talk a little bit about it here and we both do. I'm not the type of person who wants a guru. I'm not the type of person who needs instruction from some top down, hierarchical, hierarchical.

Just gonna stop saying that word. I'm not one who needs top down authoritarian wisdom. I don't seek that out. If anything, one of my faults is I think I know too much at times and I just regard that. So I'm not someone who's seeking out I'm a little please master, tell me what's going on. So it's very paradoxical when you find yourself or acknowledge it, you know, you have either an actual teacher that you can go to or a guru, whether they're alive or not. It's a weird place to be. And cause sometimes I'd just rather say, ah, I don't believe in any of this shit. It's useless, it's just my mind playing tricks on me.

I'm just justifying, I'm building a narrative. I need more information, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when your experience is run so counter to that even when intellectually you don't wanna believe it, that's when you kinda just like, that's where the surrender comes in. Just like, ah, whoa, I'm gonna fight this tooth and nail just cause it's inconvenient. No, so we talk a little bit about that and what it's like to experience cause she's had a tremendous amount of experience. Not tremendous, but a great deal with city ma who was very, very active with named Karole Baba and a saint in her own right.

And that's where Ambica got her name from. So there's some cool stuff in here. If you're at all interested in saints, gurus, kind of the inherent duality and non duality that are attached to beings like that, I think this is a really cool episode. Plus, it's just like a cool conversation, in my opinion, between people who have been involved in the community and are still really awesome. And there's a lot of people like that. And I think it's important, harkening back to my mini rant here in this intro. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water all the time. I think there are some cases where it's maybe prudent to do that, cough, cough, Jordan Peterson.

But like, even if you've been burned in a community, you can't say, fuck everything related to it. Like, oh, it's all garbage. A lot of these things have tremendous amounts of truth. I think where you gotta be careful is the cult of personality, right? People reference other people's names to make themselves feel better or seem important, that's weird behavior. And another cool thing we talk about this in this episode, which I'm sure a lot of you, as creatives, if you're listening to this, can appreciate, is this weird dance we do with fame, where a lot of us are like, you know, I really don't wanna be famous.

It seems like a terrible burden. But of course, I'd like some recognition for what I'm doing. So this weird dance that creative people have to do in terms of culture that really just says everyone, try to be famous, 15 minutes. Even you can be recognized, work to like fill some weird love hole in people. But as juxtaposed with like, hey, like, I'm doing something cool. I would like some recognition just, you know, because it's cool. It's like when Eli builds some really cool Lego thing and he looks up, he wants to check out. I did something cool. That's all right. And that's okay. It's just this weird dance with what we do with culture and ourselves with fame.

That comes up to it. So anyway, I'm gonna stop yakin'. How about that? Let's get to the episode. If you wanna find out more, go to ombaka-chant. A-M-B-I-K-A-C-H-A-N-T.com. I'm saying it question mark because I wanna make sure it's a .com. I'm almost positive it is. Bear with me while I confirm it. Of course it is.com. A-M-B-I-K-A-C-H-A-N-T. You'll hear, she's lovely. Known her for years now, years and years. So, without further ado, here is ombaka. (upbeat music)

Hello.

Hey, how you doing?

Good, how are you?

I'm really good. They completely changed Skype since the last time I used it. (laughing)

Yeah, it's really different. I reduced it in a while either. It's like super, there's like a whole song that plays when you call someone now. (laughing) It's like pretty weird. (laughing) How are you doing?

I'm good, how are you?

I'm doing really well. I just got done listening to the album again on a jog/walk. It's so good, seriously. Like it's objectively amazing.

Thank you. I love it, thank you.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it today. I figure we can just start with some general getting, you know, I like to get some additional information about you just as someone, you know, we've been in similar circles for a while, but we don't know a tremendous amount about each other. So, start there and then get to the album, which I definitely want to talk about. But before we get started, is there anything else you would like specifically like to cover or not cover?

No, there's nothing I don't want to cover. I mean, I think, I always want to talk about Citimah, but I think that's, you know, that's for me part of the, you know, that's like why I sing, so.

Well, then we'll definitely talk about that. (laughing) So that's like the main thing. I'm like, Citimah has to be in the conversation, otherwise I'm good.

Okay, okay. That's definitely gonna happen, I'm sure, no matter what. So cool. All right, well, with that, let's just get started. Thank you, thank you for coming on.

Thanks for having me on.

That's my pleasure. So we have known each other for five, six years, a while now, but I don't know a ton about you other than, I think so, we originally met because of Sharon, right? You were Sharon's helper, and I was working with Love Serve, or it might've been just a little before. I started doing a little bit of work with them, and then we got connected, but we also have crossed paths and just, you know, the general Satsang community there, but I really don't know that much about your kind of background and where you came from and how you got into all this stuff. So I know it's kind of a broad, dorky question, but like how did you kind of get on this path where you're now releasing an amazing Kirtont album Mother's Calling, which is really like one of the best Kirtont albums I've ever heard, and granted, I'm not like a huge listener of Kirtont albums, but I've listened to it enough.

Like I've definitely listened to like more than 20, so it's not like I don't, and it's really, really amazing. You and Lily did a great job, but back to my original question, like how did you get into this stuff?

So, thank you for the praise, I appreciate it, of course. How did I, okay, so basically like most people, I started by doing with yoga, and I started doing yoga because of, you know, like an injury type situation, right? I had asthma, and this was in the 90s, so it was a while ago. And I was in the East Village, and then the place was, you know, a few different people had been like, yoga was becoming a bit more popular, I'd say, and nothing like it is now, like a little bit.

Yeah.

A little bit, and also like, you know, enough people had said like, I had asthma, I had this, and yoga, you know. So, I ended up at Jeeva Mootie in the East Village, which was like the Happen in hipster, there wasn't hipsters then, but it was a pre-hipster place to be, I just wanna say, everybody was like tattooed, and super cool, and had like, had been a punk rocker, or was still a punk rocker, and you know what I mean? And so it was like my people, 'cause I was in a band at that time.

Oh, cool.

And I had been singing, I've been singing most of my life, and in bands, different various forms of bands. You know, since my 20s.

Oh, great.

In New York City, different like formations. So, I was already an artist, right? And there were a lot of artists there, also at Jeeva Mootie. So it was a kind of a nice fit. But then also, they would start chanting, and they were chanting, you know, they were doing, they were really teaching the mystical part of yoga, which I hadn't seen before, you know. For that, it was really sort of only, like a stretching exercise, you know. You know, like stretch, relax. So, they were incorporating the chants, which I really resonated with. And then also, at that same time, Krishna's had just started singing, leaving Kirtan at Jeeva Mootie on Monday nights.

It was free, it was every Monday night. And in the beginning, there were like 10 people. And so I was like, well, I like the chanting and the classes. I'm gonna go check this out. I think actually a friend of mine had gone before I did. She was like, you have got to hear this guy. You're gonna be, he's amazing. So I went and it was just like, you know, it's hard to describe, but it felt like coming home, you know. And it was like a wave of like pretty intense emotion, which a lot of people experience at Kirtans. And it was just such a deep connection for no logical reason, right, you know. And my background as like, my musical background had nothing to do with Indian music or Kirtan.

It had nothing to do with devotional singing. Other than I will say, there is a one side, a side gospel chorus in high school, which I now like to say it my first Kirtan.

Cool.

'Cause I loved it. But I was like a Jewish punk rocker. So I didn't belong in, you know, I didn't belong to gospel chorus.

Yeah, yeah, you're not in Kirtan.

That's funny.

And I didn't really belong in Kirtan. I had to accept that Kirtan, you know, not as you know, right, the spiritual community here accepts everybody. And it's not a path just for like wanting, you don't have to join anything to chant or participate in a yoga class. You can take the parts that work for you and make them work or incorporate them into your own faith. So I like that openness about it. But anyway, so the connection was very deep and profound for me. And I started to, my band can say, "I have a band with me in reds at the time." And as I kept chanting, just things started to shift. You know, I just didn't really wanna, I just lost my oomph for the bad.

I just was like, I don't really, this just doesn't do the same thing for me anymore, right? It's not connecting in the way that I felt when I was chanting. It was such a deep, profound connection to myself, to the divine, to others that wasn't there in just singing at a club, right?

Right, right.

And so I just wanted to do it all the time. You know, just became a thing that that's all I wanted to do. And all I want, and I really started to become curious about the different gurus and teachers and lineages. And it was funny because I really, I loved Krishna Das's stories about Maharaji, right? But I, you know, and I read "The Miracle of Love" and I remember reading it and I was like, 'cause at one point I had all these questions 'cause my life was just sort of turning upside down which maybe you can relate to now. (laughing)

No, not at all. No, it's all normal, good, easy, comfortable all the time.

Right, like what's happening? (laughing) So I had asked him, like, I was like, can we let it go for coffee? Like, I don't know what's going on. (laughing) And he was like, yeah. So he like gave me like 7,000 books and in those days I think it was cassette tapes even. Like, he just like, you know, talked and he was just so out there and I was like, okay. And I read "Miracle of Love" and I remember when I was reading it, I was like, I wish I had a girl like this, you know, but I really thought of me and Krali Bhabas as Krishna Das's guru and then I was gonna, you know, I was kind of longing for a teacher like that.

Those stories, that book really, I still love that book so much.

Yeah, it's so good.

It's like a great book. And so I, you know, the more practice I did, I was doing some pretty intense yoga practice too. I was doing "Nashtanga" and I was chanting and I was learning a lot of the mantras. I was taking Sanskrit with Menorima, who I'm still, who's on the album. I'm still dear friends with and connected to. And then I started to have saints come to me in my dreams, like things were really getting out there. That was another like Krishna Das, I need your help, you know, 'cause I couldn't. And we met, so we met in a Starbucks near New York City, we met in a Starbucks. And I, like the second I sat down, I started like bawling and I was like, okay, maybe we'll just go not, maybe not here, maybe we'll go somewhere.

So we went to his apartment, which I'd been to before we sat like at his kuja and he showed me a picture of Sidimah and he was like, if you wanted me to real saint, you should meet her, like after we sat, after I calmed down and stopped bawling, you know, like that. And so I, that took, you know, that really struck me and then I knew I wanted to go to India, but I had a whole plan and I knew I wanted to go to Kenshi first for a Durga Puja, because I really resonated with particularly the Durga chants that he would sing. And so I went, you know, but I also had this plan to just start in Kenshi and then I thought I was gonna go to Ashtanga and had all these other plans, you know?

Yeah.

But those went out the window when I got to Kenshi. I went with Nina, Rao, and it was my first time ever in India, so it was great to be with an Indian.

When was this?

What year?

This was '98, so this was 20 years ago. And, you know, I fell in love with it. Like, I just, I mean, it was a little, the beginning was like, what? You know, Delhi is like insane if you've never been to India.

I've never been like that.

Yeah, I've never been. I've heard.

I mean, it's a lot different. It's still insane. It's still insane. It's still a real culture shock, but it is a lot easier now to navigate than it was 20 years ago.

Oh, I can admit.

You know, there's a lot, there are a lot more used to Westerners and there's a lot more, you know, and now there's cell phones.

Yeah.

I got an Uber the last time I was in Delhi. (laughing)

It's changed a little bit.

Oh my God. (laughing) It's giving me a part. (laughing)

So, so when I got to Kenshi, that was sort of when everything just, like, I mean, already I had been on this path. I left everything. I left, I had been working at Julisby. I had left the job I had to work at Julisby. I've been working there. I left there to go to India for six months. And so when I met, when I ended up, you know, when I first arrived in Kenshi and met Sidimala for staying shoes with Jimantamal then, that was just like, that's it. I mean, that was weird. Like if I thought chanting was home, Kenshi was like another level at home, you know? So I just didn't want to ever leave her.

I didn't want to ever come back. (laughing) And so I spent six months just trying to be with her. You know, and there was a lot of great, you know, Leela's about, you know, like where she was like, I couldn't find her and I didn't know people then. Like, now I know people. Then I didn't know people. And so like, nobody would tell me where she was even though one could have found her if they knew the right people, but I didn't know anybody then really. So I spent a long time like just like trying to find her waiting for her and like, you know that chanting. Was she elusive in a similar way than named for the Bible?

Was she was like, gotcha?

Not as much as he, but certainly in the same vein. So like, she definitely would disappear at times or you just couldn't find her. It definitely was like a secret. It was like a bit of a secret sort of underground railroad situation to find her.

Right, right.

So you had to like know the right people. And I actually ended up, I had been waiting for her a long time, been with her and Kenshi. And then we got Jao, the famous Jao, the Maharaji does. She does it too, right? So you get Jao, you're like, leave the ashram go. And you're like, what should I do? And she's like, I don't know.

Bye bye.

You know, like something elusive. She would always say something like, I mean, you started to learn later, I learned all the lingo. Like if she would say, you know, I'll see you would wait to hear her say, I'll see you again, Maharaji will bring you back. Like that was the thing. She had to say that. So you were like, always trying to get that from her. But then again, that first time I didn't know, I don't remember what she said. I don't remember if she said anything of the kind. I just like, it was like, okay. And then I'm like hanging out in nine and tall with all these people from Tao, so all these devotees and they were like, Sadhu Ma was this great devotee that I met in the early days.

She was like, what's known as a Bhadmash, you heard that turned by now, right?

Mm, no, no. So it's like an endearing term for somebody who doesn't follow the rules and it's been a bit of a rebel and a bit naughty.

Gotcha.

And I want to just say that's pretty much all of Maharaji's thoughts on it.

Does seem like that in many ways.

Right, that's sort of like who we are. We're like, so the bad ones that we can't follow a rule or you know someplace like some burrows and some ashrams are so super organized.

Yep, yep. - Like email, you do this, you do that and like this is like, who knows, you know.

This is not my people.

Right, apparently not my eyes. (laughing) So I was hanging out and I, you know, I was hanging in, I just like, I didn't know she was still in Kenshi and you could go see her. I had no idea, like she told me to leave, I went. And nobody like told me that you could know go back. Like again, later I knew all the tricks. I learned every trick I could to be near her. Which was part of the fun too. It was like learning the tricks and feeling like you got it and somehow. So, but I actually went to Rishikesh and we waited for her and it was like a much longer time than usual that she came there and then she also stayed much less time than she usually did.

So like I had her there for like a minute and then she was gone and nobody would tell me where she was and I was like, I had all this time left in India and I started to get, I became really despondent. And then finally I actually went to the ashram and I had a tantrum. I just, I had a tantrum and like the manager was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Come have chai, we'll work this out. Like.

Calm down.

And then he gave me the secret info that I've been waiting for who's like, okay, this is the man who knows where she's gonna be next. He hosts her when she goes down south. Here is his, all his numbers. You're gonna meet him. You're gonna like, so I, and then I said, like he did, like I got it, like I have got a tantrum. And then I did, like I got it and like, I like, he gave me all his, you know, he was really sweet and open and like the whole like, I'll tell you when she, if she's there and here all, here's my son's number, here's my number, here's my grandfather's number. (laughing) And I called all the numbers too.

(laughing)

Well, you gotta get through, you gotta find out.

Yeah, and I got there, like she was in the south and I actually ended up spending a lot of time, I was the only westerner there and I was in the south with her for like a month. And it was amazing and hard, like also, which I didn't expect, because all it was doing was chanting. She gave me a schedule, that's where she gave me my name. She gave me the name Ambica. And when she gave it to me, she said, this is a name, this is not a name for wasting time and going here and doing this and that. This is a name for singing to God. And so that's, you know, that was pretty big.

Yeah, yeah, maybe just a little bit, yeah. (laughing) And then she gave me a schedule for like my stava. So from the beginning, even when Nina and I had first arrived in Henshi, she gave us the stava, our service was to sit with the Kirtanwala Vincanth as much as possible, which is like all we wanted to do. And she was like, that's your service. Do it as much as you can. And we were like, oh my God, it was amazing. 'Cause other people at the ashram were like, no, you should do this, you should do that. You shouldn't be here in the Kirtanwala. It's like goals. People always tell you what to do, especially when you're like, they always tell you what to do.

(laughing) And so she, you know, and then in Rishikesh again, she would ask me to sing the Hanumanjalisa, which I had like, you know, I'd been the manager there had asked me to sing as well. And I just learned it while singing it that, you know, I didn't know it. So I learned it by just muddling it up a lot. People would help me, you know, sit down and they'd be like, nope, nope, nope. It's like, okay. (laughing) And I'm leading it, you know, it was like really funny. (laughing) So and then in the south, I had an official schedule, like a thing, like a schedule, like you're this time, this time you're singing to Maharaji, you're at this Mandir, and it was like amazing.

Wow.

But it was also hard because like, I wasn't doing anything else. I wasn't hanging it. You know, when you do that much practice, you're mind your balance, like whoa.

Yeah, yeah.

It was like a little bit of a hell room for a while.

Yeah.

You know, and I was like, what's wrong with me?

Yeah, I thought I'd love this. Now I'm doing it all the time and now, what the fuck? (laughing) I totally get it.

Right, you know, and she actually sent me away. She sent me on a yatra. She made me do this tour of the South of India. I even like, I was, like, and I didn't want to leave her. So I was trying everything I could not to go.

Yeah.

And even though I was having a hard time, didn't matter, right? And I was also sick, which I didn't realize either, like, and then I got really sick.

Wow.

And I had a fever and I was like in my room and then the next day, the day I was better, I went to see her and she was like, okay, so when are you going? (laughing) She's not even like, how are you? Good, you're better. What do you go? And I think she knew. I couldn't, in fact, I know she knew. I couldn't take it and I needed a break, right?

Right.

So, in the yatra, it was like, amazing. But, and she told me to stay, you know, she was like, up to staying while you're out, but don't stay, like, there are a lot of, like, instructions, don't sing on the train, don't sing unless you're in an ashramar temple. Like, it was very, like, it has to be a practice. So she really, like, I was truly lucky.

That's so interesting that you basically kind of got plugged in from, I mean, this is why I love New York too. Like, you can get those little kind of focal points of energy that can expand into such a crazy kind of journey, right? Like, you went because you got into, and this is what, this is why I think yoga naturally kind of proliferated in the West is, for every person who's just doing it to, you know, put on yoga pants and do some asanas and stretch. Like you said, there are so many other people who do get into the more mystical sides of it, and then obviously if you go and you do any type of reading or research on what yoga is and what its actual function is, it's not a surprise, but it's just cool how for people, you know, I always think about people who don't have these maybe profound, in-body, tangible experiences of going and meeting someone like Sidima or Maharaji, that it really just takes any degree of openness to being receptive to any of that stuff, to expand it into something, you know, equally as profound as that.

So I just love that that was kind of such a seemingly simple thing that you did. Got into yoga, it made me granted a little bit before the rest of the people. I was actually doing yoga back then, my mom used to take me to this woman's apartment. So, yeah, she took me to yoga, I was like 13, 14, 15, it was me, all women in this woman, Ricky, was her house, she was an amazing teacher, and it was just like, I realized it was something else, like it wasn't just going and doing exercise at some place, and it's cool to see how this stuff has developed and how it led to such a really cool, I know a lot of people lament that they didn't get to meet Maharaji, right?

I count myself fortunate, I was actually never one of those people who really got concerned with that, but it's cool that you got to meet city ma, like I also really want to hear more about city ma too, which I know you're happy to tell me about because I didn't get a huge, I had obviously knew who she was, she was mentioned frequently, but I didn't get a ton of stories about her from anyone. So, I mean, maybe you could give kind of a background on who she was related to named Crowley Baba and kind of how this all fits together, cause, you know, in a cosmological sense.

Right, yes, you're right, I'm happy to talk, I could talk about her all day on day, so.

Well, I'm happy to listen, so. (laughing) It's like telling Maharaji story to be ma, so it's the same thing and you get the same benefit. And it's just as like, sort of, it's a huge treat. Like we always, I always feel like it's a treat. When I get to talk about city ma, people, it feels like, you know, actually helping of dessert. So, she, so she was a devotee, so she had, there's a lot of great stories about her actually, and more have come out since she left her body because one of the things before I start with her story is that she really, one of the reasons you didn't hear a lot about her is because she discouraged it, so she wouldn't allow any pictures of herself to be put up until much later.

And she wouldn't allow, like everything for her was Maharaji, like the complete and total focus was on Maharaji, and she wouldn't let you call her your, even if you thought she was your guru, she wouldn't let you say it. (laughing) And she just, so, she kept herself very hidden and quiet, and part of that is, you know, it's because it was her, you know, her nature to just always be focused on Maharaji and love for Maharaji, like kind of like Hanuman and Ram.

Right, right.

Like everything is right, but we seem to Hanuman. So, so she started out, there are some fun stories about her and Ananda Maima when she was a girl, because her mother maybe used to take her to see, and they were like devotees of Ananda Maima, you know who she is.

Yes, of course.

Right, yeah. So, and there's a couple stories of like, when she was a girl, she, there's a story of Ananda Maima saying like Ma was like seven or something, and she was dancing, and Ananda Maima looked over, and she was like totally blissed out. Sidhima and Ananda Maima, like said to her mother, to Sidhima's mother, you know, that's the mother of the universe, like behold. And she actually came, so when Sidhima then married, she married this man who was much older than her. She was, and yeah, he was, that's in the near and the dear.

Yes, yes, another good one.

Is where, right, a great, oh my God, Dada's books are like gems. So, he was also a great devotee of Maharaji, but it was because of Sidhima that, I got it, but I don't remember why, but in my mind, I got it backwards with KK when I saw him this last. So, I always grill KK 'cause KK and you see Maan, you know, from the beginning. So, whenever I'm with KK and then, yeah, I like growling.

And get the down low, yeah.

I just do, and he allows me to, 'cause he's KK so, you know, he's like, all right, we're getting, you know, he orders Chai's snacks, 'cause those were KK does, and then if you get him in the right mood, like some days he won't talk and some days he will. So, I just keep trying, you know. (laughing) I just keep going. And also, time with KK, as you know, is fabulous. So, he also, so he corrected me and he said, you know, no, Sidhima was a devotee. So, like her family were devotees of Maharaji, but when she was married to this man, how about I say this, now I'm forgetting. But he, it was because of her that he became a devotee and one of the great devotees of Maharaji, like he had a total conversion.

And when she was married to him, so in those days in India, she was in this place in the, you know, up in the hills and the foothills of the Himalayas, where, you know, near to where Kenji is, and near to another temple, which Hanuman got up there. So, she was up and very close to KK. Her house was like a few new houses down from this. And it was the tradition that after a woman was married, she didn't leave, I didn't know this, but she didn't leave the house, basically, for the first couple of years. Like she didn't go out, she stayed in and was like hidden, I guess, for whatever reason. And so, we will get into that.

But, so, but one of the things that Sidhima was, she was really interesting, 'cause in some ways, she really followed the rules, whereas Maharachi was a huge role-breaker, as you know, like he didn't follow any rules, but she was much more of a rule follower in terms of what women could and couldn't do. And, you know, she didn't push back much against that. Only a little. So, at that time, anyway, she was young, and she was married. So, she couldn't go out. So, anandama came to visit her, 'cause anandama knew that, and she wanted to see her. So, anandama is this huge, like, has a huge following, right?

She came to see her at her house, and then she asked her to give her something. And Sidhima gave her a stuffed monkey. And that monkey, anandama traveled with it everywhere she went until she died.

Oh, wow.

Until she left her body. So, that's a good, like, secret story.

Wow, that's super cool.

I know. That's like, I found out it has mixed connotations for me now, but I didn't know that Barack Obama carries around a miniature Hanuman. It's like one of three things that he carries around. There's all these weird little monkey stories spread out through the world. More stories, please, more.

So, the other thing about that, the other thing about that story is that, and I'll tell a personal story, but the other thing about that story is that, I didn't know that KK just told me is that they lead out the window, and all these devotees came, and they were, like, throwing an anandama, was throwing fruit, and just thought out the window to people from Sidhima's place. That was a piece that I hadn't learned, which is why I asked KK to tell me the same stories over and over and over, because, usually, another detail will come through that I didn't get before. So, that's the other reason why.

I mean, I do it because I over-

Your persistence pays off.

Yeah, it does, it does. So, this time, that was a detail that he had never said before, and I was like, "What? What you didn't tell me?" He's like, "Oh, yes, let me think of course, of course. Of course, that's what happened to have been there." Anyway, so, another, a personal story is that, so, remember, I was saying about, when I was in the South with her, that it was really hard, right, and that's sick, and I didn't know it, and then there were subtle things, 'cause I was drinking the water, I had gotten cavalier, and I had been in India for months, and I was like, "It's well water, I can drink it, I'll be fine." - Right.

And I remember, and I wasn't, I was getting sick from the water, that's what happened, 'cause the minute I left, I felt better.

Yeah, yeah. - Right? So, it was the water, and I remember Mon, and this is the way she worked, she wouldn't say things, sometimes she would say things very directly and outright, like, "Do this, don't do this." But sometimes she wouldn't, it would be subtle, and you had to catch it, so she just actually one day looked at me and said, "Oh, you're drinking bottle water?" She'd say, she would only speak Hindi, right, and there was a translator, but I knew enough, I knew enough Hindi to know basic stuff, so she was like, "Oh, you're drinking bottle water?" And I was like, "No, no, I'm not drinking bottle water,"

but I remembered it, because she pointed it out, like, "What are you doing?"

Why are you drinking water that's making you sick?

Right, so that was interesting, I remember that later, I was like, "You should mention it, "you should mention it, I just can catch it." And then, but then later, more direct, so I left the South, she said, "You know, "she jagged me finally," and said, "But I will meet you," she was very directly saying, "I will meet you in Brindavan, "go to Brindavan, I will be there." It was like a promise, so I was like, "Okay, I'll take it." I will leave since you're, 'cause she kind of probably, I think she knew I wouldn't leave any other way, like with me, she had to give me a definite, even like something, 'cause at that point, I had long gone so much, she was like, "All right, you know?"

So she did, so in Brindavan, so I got to, I was trying to renew my passport in Delhi, and I failed. It wasn't a renewable passport, tried the tantrum, and they were like, "I didn't work out." They were like, "I'm sorry, madam." (laughs) I really can't help you. (laughs) So, sometimes tantrums are something, you know?

Something, I know it.

I know, it's worth a try. So I went to Brindavan, and for the first time in a long time, there were Westerners there, and so I was like, having some fun, hanging out, and just having fun, talking, shopping, hanging out. And there were some great devotees there, and that Kabir Dostu is one of the people who was with Maharaji, and he was so fabulous. He was living there, and he and his wife at the time were living the ashram six months of the year.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it was so great, and there were a lot of other devotees there, and so we were just having fun, and I wasn't, I was doing, I don't know, I wasn't doing my usual chalice's morning and night or something. I wasn't doing my, I was doing my prayers or whatever, but I wasn't doing what I had been doing in the South. And part of it was, 'cause I needed to let loose a little, I think, and part of it was because I felt a little self-conscious, like I didn't wanna be like, well, I'm now the Kirtan person.

Sure, sure, sure.

Who's gonna sing at your op, like I was waiting to be asked, basically, I didn't think I could just sit down and start leading Kirtan and Maharaji's tuck it. So, Ma came, and I remember, she kinda wouldn't, she wasn't really looking at me, and I would go for Naam, and I would follow her around, and she wasn't really, and I was like, something's up, she's not, like, what's going on? And then she called me, with Kavirda spoke, he speaks Hindi, so she called me, and she called him into translate, like, the next day, into this garden area, and she gave me the best scolding I've ever had in my life, and she, you know, through Kavirda, she was like, are you singing, have you been singing to Maharaji, and I was like, no, I mean, I tried to start to, like, explain, or whatever, and she's like, no, you think Maharaji doesn't need to be sung to here, he needs to be sung to here, they're the same as in the South, in Vera Forum, he needs to be sung to, and she was like, and then she's like, that's your save-up, and she said, and then she was like, Manta, so Manta was this Indian woman, who was like of the same age as me, basically, who'd been in the South, and she said to me, she said, Manta gets up at four a.m.

and washes popped every day, what are you doing? (laughing) I was went to the bazaar, and I had left it, and so she was like, you need to get back on your schedule, you need to think with Maharaji, every day, twice a day, and like, this is your back, you know? And that was it, like, it was just like, your back on, and it was really fabulous, because I needed that, right? I needed someone to tell me what to do, and it was great to be scolded, and then, by her, in that way, in that really loving way. And it was, I remember it was hard for Kabir Das to keep a straight face at a certain point. (laughing)

He's just getting yelled at, for funny. (laughing)

And then later, while I was in front of him, right, and so I did my, I got, I did my, I did what I was told, I didn't, it was like a main thing, of course, and had like many different kind of experiences doing that, and Leila's, and then, she kept asking me, though, and every single time I would see her for Darshan and sit with her, she would ask me, how was your time in the South? How was your time in South? And I had the same answer, oh, it was amazing, so much grace, you know, to feel it, spend time with you, to be the, you know, singing to Maharaji, like, same, same thing. She kept asking me, she asked me every single time.

So final one day, we're in the garden in the afternoon. And she asked me, and for some reason that day, I decided to tell her the truth. Which was, it was really hard, Ma. (laughing) But, 'cause like, I started with the usual, it was amazing, and all that stuff. And, but then I was like, it was hard, my mind was really, like, loud, and difficult, and, you know, it was really hard. And she just cracked up. (laughing)

And she never asked me that question again. (laughing) Like, she was waiting, she was like, you gotta mess up sometime.

That's so funny, that's so funny. I mean, I love these stories too, because they're just, they're not only personal reminders for you and individual reminders, but they're just like, that's like what all of us need to hear, you know what I mean? Like, the essence of those stories of, you know, eventually just surrendering and fessing up and telling the truth of what it is. And, you know, being, you know, maybe hesitant or nervous to do something, because, you know, you don't know if it's appropriate or not, or you're waiting to be asked. Like, this is stuff that like, everyone goes through. And, you know, some of us need very direct, literal people saying those, having those instances, but some of us also just can hear those things, and be like, you know what, that's true.

Like, that's the wisdom in that is universal. And, I love when that's embodied by people too. I just think it's the coolest thing. And, I think that's like, I'm sure there will be people listening to this, or like, well, you guys are talking about saints, so matter of factly, like, you know, how do you know, like, you know, yada, yada, yada, so on and so forth. And, obviously, if we're talking about the near and the year and miracles of love, we're kind of, we're drinking the Kool-Aid already. But, what's cool about this, no pun intended, is that I know a lot of people who want to believe in something, who are yearning to find that thing where that person can tell them what to do.

I don't know about you, me personally, I'm not really that type of person. I'm, if anything, overly confident at times that I know what's going on, and I can think I'm cocky, so I'm not seeking this out. But then, when you get these experiences, where it just, like, totally transcends or circumvents, the intellectual, whatever, egotistical part of your being, and you have these experiences right there, you're like, "Oh, shit." Like, I can't not believe this now. Like, I'd be, it'd be too schizoid to just discount all of these weird synchronicities, and, you know, like you said, the feeling of coming home.

People who have felt that, in the context of any spiritual or resonant situation, energetic situation, know what you're talking about. It's not like, you know, only for being in the presence of city mind, can't you? That's not what it is. It's that this universal thing comes out of these experiences. Which, to me, I think why it's so fun to share and listen and hear, you know, and tell these stories is because it's just a reminder, right? Like, we just remember that, like, oh, yeah, this is kind of what's going on all the time. Even though, you know, maybe what we're looking at in our day-to-day lives is anything but that, kind of like counter to those things that we experience in those moments.

So, I don't want to ram on too much here longer about that, but I can see now the trajectory that led to mothers calling. But, I mean, I don't know, do you have other albums? Have you put out other music that I just don't? Okay.

No, no, I have one, I did one recording of the Mehta chant, what I call it, the Mehta chants, and I do it in English, but I did one, like, a one-off with that because-- - Cool.

Hanging out with Sharon. - Yeah.

And I actually had been meaning to record, I mean, right, so I've been practicing 20 years.

Yeah.

And certainly I had recorded some stuff with my bands and I, but I was really, I want to just say, like I, part of it was like life obstacles, but part of it was just like, I have a real struggle with the fact that when I was in bands for so long, like Spain was the, was what you wanted, or what I wanted. - Yeah, sure.

And then I really had a lot of, and still do a lot of struggle with that. And that was part of why I was chanting, I was so reticent, so like, I would come and go like, I was like, no, this is my practice, like it's a prayer. There was at one point when I told Maya I wanted to perform again, and she actually said not to. She actually, her words were, I said, I have the feeling like I want to perform again. This was like a couple of years after I'd met her, and she said, fight that, she literally said, fight that feeling. And she said, it won't make you happy. And she said, let your singing be a prayer.

So, and that was, so I really took that apart, and I just think I've always had a struggle with wanting fame, not wanting fame.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Wanting recognition, not wanting recognition. So I've had a lot of that, so it took me like, a long time to sort of really be able to step out and go, I do really want to share this. And I feel, even though I still struggle with the fame recognition part of it, I think it's important for me to share this. For my own sake, do you know what I mean?

I know what you mean, and you probably can imagine. No, it's interesting because I think a lot of people are okay, or a lot of people feel uncomfortable saying that I want to be famous, or the pro or con level of being famous. But then the other thing is that I don't hear a lot of people talk about this, is I've always been the type of person where as a creative person who makes music, putting stuff out is always a dream, and having people respond to things that I make or do always feels great, especially if I know that's coming from a place that's authentic for me. But also not wanting to be subservient to the feeling of that is a big aspect of this kind of famous, not famous thing.

Also, when you contextualize it in the culture we live in, where everyone seemingly can and wants to be famous, and kind of like maybe pushing that to the side or down more than it needs to be, like you're allowed to get recognition and grades up. Well, how I want to tie this together is this, is it's really cool to hear you say that because in listening to the album, like, I don't know how to describe this, but I can tell, I'm the type of person who loves the new Kanye West album, and everyone hates it 'cause he said stupid stuff, but I can hear where he's coming from, and it's just real, it's amazing, it's real.

It's who he is, and he's just laying it all out there. And I heard the same thing in your album. It's not the same album in any way as yay that he made, but the level of authenticity and just realness in it shines through not only from the production that Lily did, but just your actual chanting and singing. It's just real. And I can tell you that regardless of your level of fame or lack of fame for the album, know that people who look for that in music and chanting, you did it, and that's fucking awesome. So that's really cool, and it's interesting to hear you say that that's something that you struggle with 'cause I went to a music school, I have a ton of creative friends and a lot of pursuits, and fame is something that most cool kids want to say, "Oh, I don't want to be famous, "I'm just doing it for the love of it."

But the truth is everybody kind of wants some recognition for the stuff they're bearing their soul with. So it's cool, I get it, I really get it.

Well, I mean, thank you to hear, yes, thank you for all of that, really. So to hear that it feels authentic is pretty much that's all I really wanted. I wanted it to be in dedication to mine. The reason it's mother's calling is because that's like what, when you were called to Darshan with her, that's what people say, right? In the ashram, they'd say mother's calling, and you'd run, at least I would. That's what pretty much everybody did.

Yeah, that's so, I really like the city my, I didn't know her, but I just, it's not just 'cause it's a meme and palpable and intuitively felt by people, but the rise of the divine feminine, not in a trite, silly way, is really, really, really important. And I think the more stories, that's why I said, of course, I know Anandamayama, because she's one of the few people that people actually got exposed to by no small means because of the autobiography of a yogi, Paramahansa Yogananda, tip people off, but I also always, I have a special place in my heart for Ramakrishna, because he was a Durga. Wasn't that his main yet?

I mean, that's cool.

Oh my.

Yeah, and it's important. It's really important to kind of recognize that, not whitewash it, and also not just esoterically, kind of symbolize what that means, rise of feminine, but actually supporting women in real life. It's also very important too, because it can get happening in many different spiritual sects. We can get a little too self-congratulated. Congratulatory about the divine feminine principles, and then just forget that women are actually important too. It's not forget that. So yeah, well, I'd like to, I mean, we got a little bit more time here. I'd like to hear like, what was the actual process of recording the album like, because it's unique in the sense that it feels, no problem.

No, no, it's, you can just, I don't, somebody at the door, but I don't know who it is, I'll just ignore it.

Sorry.

That's probably like a package or something.

Yeah, yeah. What was the actual recording process, like for doing this with Lilly, and just kind of, there's a lot of like, it sounds like field recording stuff too. It's really cool.

So thank you, and Lilly is amazing as you know. She's been on your podcast, right?

Yes, yes, gonna have her background soon, yeah.

Yeah, she's, so she and I were friends, and I, you know, when I really was like, okay, I'm ready to make an album, I'm ready, I'm really ready. I mean, I had started, I want to just say like, I started like 11 years ago trying to make an album with John McDowell, and then I, but I was pregnant with my son, and I was deluded that after I gave birth, even though it's my second child, and I should have known. There is this thing where you just forget everything.

Yeah, you forget, it's hormones.

You're like, okay, fine, I'm gonna be able to do everything.

So well, so no. So I had my, you know, so I started a recording that I never finished, and then just life circumstances. I became friends with Lilly. I was thinking I might do it with David Us, which I did do that one, the meta-chant that I have. I did that with him. But then just that he was busy and like, schedules, and I don't know, and I had been coming close with Lilly, and I had heard her CD, like her solo, which have you, you've listened to that, yeah?

I don't think I have.

Oh my God, you have to ask her for it.

Yeah.

Amazing.

I'm sure it is.

So I mean, I loved it, and I played it a lot. Like when she first gave it to me years ago, I played it tons, 'cause I just loved it so much. I'm totally secular, it's great. I mean, if she doesn't now think it's great, I just want you to know, she's like, oh my God, I can't listen to that. But I think it's great.

I know how that goes, the hardest thing is music. You made it when you're a different person. It's not totally good.

Right, right, exactly. So you know, but I think it's great. So at that point, I was like, I'm just gonna ask Lilly. Like, I just was like, I think I'm gonna ask her if she wants to produce it. And then she said, yes.

That's awesome.

Much to my happy surprise. And so then it was like a whole like, we went through major life obstacles and changes. So many things happen. It took us like five years from the time I asked her. She said, yes, to like actually making it happen partly 'cause of, you know, money, we were doing it low budget and running up to Kevin O'Reilly's studio up in Niaq. And, you know, just trying to schedule everything and have our lives and, you know, work and all that stuff. So we couldn't do it like people who are like, Krishna just goes in the studio for two weeks or three weeks or whatever.

Right. So that was part of it, but also like both our marriages ended during this process, which was really interesting and challenging. And we were both like, we became incredibly close because of that because we really like, we're there for each other when we were, you know, on our like, on the floor.

Yeah.

So that was a really interesting personal part of the process and this kind of bonding that happened. And then Lily and I did talk though early on about wanting to use samples like from India. And so we had some that other people had recorded, but as it happened because the recording went so late, I was, when we were like just finishing, right? We were gonna start mixing and we were just doing the last bit, I had booked a trip to India. She was like, well, you can do a lot of recording there. So most of them came from that last trip, which was the last time I saw Sydney mine.

Oh, wow, that's cool.

So, you know, and that's why like that very, that piece at the end, the Davey prayer buzzing is like, that was just amazing that I got those women to sing thanks to Prima who like cast them. And, you know, 'cause I was really hoping and there weren't a lot, like they weren't around as much as they were in the old days. Like it used to be you come to Kenji and all the Moz were there. And they were singing every day. And I could, you know, sing with them whenever, but this was not like that, nobody was there. It was like, I was, so it was like that particular day they'd all come. You know, so that was amazing.

So then I just would like walk around and like some of them I sat, you know, I just sat there and I like snuck back, I had that recorder in my bag and then my app, like I just didn't know it was had wasn't, it wasn't secret, like can we do that? But everything else was kind of secret. Like I had to walk around into my bag.

Sure.

Well, I mean, it's just, it's really, really quite an album. And I'm not, I'm not just big enough, big up in you here and trying to inflate your ego. It's legit and I say that for people listening to and I'll obviously have links. So we're at the end here. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing a little bit earlier. You've just been amazingly pleasant for this entire experience. I end with three questions and then one larger question. What's your favorite color?

Purple.

What's your favorite number?

I'm gonna say nine. That was the worst one that popped into my head. It's when I have a few.

What are the other ones? What are the other ones?

Well, three, actually other ones, three. Three was this close.

Three is a great one too. What is your favorite animal?

It's harder. I might feel like I have a favorite animal like one favorite.

You can name it too.

I mean, elephants are up there. You gotta go with the monkey because, you know.

You're locked in to elephant and monkey now forever.

All right, I'll take it, I'll take it.

Until the next time and you can change it. I've had people on the same time their answers change, you'd be surprised. So last question. What's a practical tip that you could share with people who are listening, a practical tip that's helped you in your life?

Do you mean like anything or in terms of hunting?

Anything, literally.

I mean, actually for me, the thing is, I'll talk about practice. For me, the thing is I do it every day and I do it when I wake up. Like I have a, and for me, doing spiritual practice of any kind or any kind of practice that you wanna like cultivate in the morning. I know it's personal to each person, but I've found that to be the ability for me to be consistent with it. 'Cause like that's what works.

The regularity, yeah.

It's the regularity, it's the same time, same ritual, like I have a real ritual. And I just think rituals, I think rituals are incredibly important and that we're like kind of starved for them in the West.

Yeah, well, because we can just look at our phones in between everything and just, there's we, rituals are, I think, when people experience them, they like them now because you're right, where you are starved for them. Just not, or maybe we have rituals, they're just not particularly fulfilling, so, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

Yeah, we can go on.

That's another conversation.

The whole other conversation. I would love to have you back on sometime soon. Are you still in Brooklyn?

I'm still in Brooklyn and I'd love to, 'cause I feel like I didn't finish like, I meant to say much more about to be mine, like how, who she is in relation to Maharaji and I completely somehow left that house.

Well, this, I've found that these narratives always kind of fit the way they're supposed to and the next time we can talk about that too, because I'm sure a lot of people have questions about this, these two very interesting beings, to say the least.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

And yeah, I'm still in Brooklyn, where are you?

I'm upstate, I'm in Red Hook, the Hudson Valley. Like right now, Brian Beck, yeah.

Lovely.

It is particularly lovely, I enjoy it very much, but if I'm ever in the city again, let's try to get together and do another one of these.

I would love to, that would be, and I'd love to see it be so much fun.

Yeah, all right, thanks so much.

All right, thank you now.

All right, bye-bye.

Bye-bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Thanks for listening to that episode. For those listening past music, good news. I have been working on music every single day. Sometimes when it's not even fun, I haven't just been doing it when inspiration calls. Treating it like a job now, so I doing the grunt work, I'm bouncing wave files and EQing and reorganizing and putting the finishing touches on things that are 90% done, so stuff is coming. So thank you for hanging in there, especially to the patrons on Patreon on the music level. Really appreciate it. Big thanks to Patrick, never check who just continues to be the coolest. And support me even when I don't get episodes out when I'm supposed to, or at least in my mind, when I'm supposed to.

If you wanna go find out more about Ombaka, go check her out, ombakachant.com, A-M-B-I-K-A-C-H-A-N-T.com. Pick up her album, Mother's Calling. It's really good, stream it on Spotify. Do whatever you want, you don't have to buy it. Just listen to it, 'cause it's good. That's what I'm telling you to do. That's it. Have guests, let me know some cool people. I do have people's queued, but sometimes people don't follow through. Sometimes I have to move something, sometimes they do, we'll see what happens, but there are guests scheduled, and I'm sure there's gonna be some cool stuff going on. Okay, I will see you next week.