Ep. 11 - The Return of Michael Donovan

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

Welcome to episode 11 of Synchronicity Podcast. The 11 episodes, I actually had a look up. I didn't know I had already done 10 of these. It's been really fun. So if I have, I know I point that out almost every single podcast, but it's been a good time. My guest today, Michael Donovan, might remember Michael Donovan because he used to be on MindPod Network. I still consider Michael a part of MindPod Network, even though he's not officially. We can make that clear, but in spirit, he is. Speaking of spirit, I didn't plan that segue. This is just, I'm not great at the segue, but when I do them, I like to point them out.

This conversation today. Michael starts by being extremely difficult, and I have to cajole him into giving me answers 'cause he didn't like that I had questions. He wanted it to be a conversational format, and he wanted to talk about what he wanted to talk about, and then he started asking me questions, which I actually think turned out pretty well, and I'm not opposed to it, but I did wanna find out a few things about Michael, why he does some of the things he does, because I find him to be, I've only known Michael for a year and a half, two years now, but one of my good friends now, and I'm always impressed with his inquisitiveness and just actually, not a lot of bullshit with Michael.

He's not interested in putting on any type of, he's not trying to impress anyone, although what he does is impressive. He's a photographer, makes really awesome stuff, really, really just an incredibly creative and talented guy beyond just being a photographer. His mind works in a way that I think is pretty impressive. My role in this podcast is primarily trying to, and you'll hear me say this, is to keep us on track, because we can just go off on tangents and talk about that, which is why I came up with questions, Michael, if you're listening, so it was to keep things on track, 'cause otherwise it would have been like another two and a half hours of us talking about God knows what.

All right, so what else do we talk about in this podcast? Michael's been going around recently, and he does these, I don't know what you call them, experiments, but they're not. He's just doing them, I get it. If I was just like, okay, here's an example. He's going around and asking people, who he comes across with at a party or whatever, saying, how's your quality of life? Which is, I think that's a great question. That's a really, really good question to ask people because I don't think it's a common question people get, and I think it actually makes people think about what they're doing and how their life is, and that's a nice thing to do.

You always need to, I think that's not always, but it's good to ask yourself that. He's interested in people and the connections that people make, and he really, that has been, since I've known him, kind of like the singular thread of what he, my experience with him, and I'm incredibly appreciative for him as a friend because he's constantly, he makes me think about things in a different way, his drive is very impressive, and it keeps me going, and it's just like a good person to have around to talk to, 'cause he's funny too. That's always important. So, then we talk about so much stuff. Donald Trump being grateful, not necessarily for Donald Trump, but if you can do that, you've done it, you've mastered it.

Yeah, I don't know what else to say there is about Michael. He's a good guy, he does a lot of really cool stuff. He has his own podcast, haven't mentioned that, called Walking Home, check that out. I have mentioned it in previous podcasts. I don't think he listens to all my podcasts, which is okay, I don't listen to all of his podcasts, but I do listen to it a lot. So, without, no, no, not so. I changed my mind, not so. Reviews have been coming in on iTunes, and I cannot tell you the joy it brings me to read that I don't want to sound sarcastic here, I'm not. I really, really appreciate it. They make, if anything was gonna keep me doing this podcast, if it was like, let's say it was just destroying my life, it was just horrible for everyone, myself, me, around me, it's not, it's great.

But let's say it was, what would actually keep me doing it is seeing these beautiful, lovely comments that you guys are leaving. So, leaving, leaving. So, if you wanna help, or you like the podcast, rate and review it on iTunes, or Stitcher, or whatever, or send me an email at nlampart@piedmontnetwork. Nope, that's not it, that's wrong. Send me an email at nlampart@mindpiednetwork.com and yeah, talk, cool. Okay, Michael Donovan, buckle up, bye bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay, first question. We're starting, boom, sorry.

Oh, wait, do you say hello to me or anything, or you just start?

No, well thank you for coming on, that's all you get. (laughs) No, we're gonna start.

Welcome back.

Welcome back to--

Hello, my god. (laughs)

The return, it's the revenge of Michael Donovan. That's what the name, I'm gonna call it that. That's what I'm gonna call this one.

Michael Donovan, all right, let's do it.

Well thank you seriously though for coming on, I do really, I really appreciate it.

I'm really happy that you took me out of time out, and let me--

I did, you're out of the corner, you don't have to wear the cap anymore. Okay, so I'm gonna do an intro, so there'll be background on who you are, but I wanna hear, you know what I'd love from you because we've been friends for a while now, a couple years, give me a biography of where you grew up and how you got to where you are now. And you can be as general, as specific, or as cagey as you wanna be.

Well, I don't know if I really, I can't do a bio really, I don't feel comfortable doing bios 'cause then you, it's just like within the moment you're saying like, this is who I was and this is what's remarkable about me or this is what I'm attached to. So I feel funny about doing bios, I can say I grew up in Spokane.

Okay, keep going. Keep going, follow that.

You're up in Spokane and then I left and I lived in Portland and I don't, see that's the thing, is that I don't know, does it, can I ask quite matters?

Yeah, you can ask whatever you want. I don't have to answer you. Now typically, I'll tell you why I start with this question. I've been starting with a lot of people is one, I think it's interesting and a little revealing, not in hopefully an off-putting way, what people say about their history because it's a super vague question, right?

That's the thing, that's why I feel uncomfortable about asking that is because my bio today is gonna be different than my bio, my bio right now is gonna be different than my bio in two hours. I've changed to the bio on my website, probably a good 20 to 30 times at least, not kidding, within the past two or three years, only because--

You're trying to figure out what to highlight and what's important, no, but my question is--

It depends on like who you're, yeah, it's like who's your market kind of thing.

Here's what I'll say about the question and how maybe you could answer it like this, is the things that people say, related to when I ask the question, how did you traverse decades of your life to get to where you are now, it is informative not only in terms of like the touch points that people give, but where they define themselves as being now. You, I know, are going to be a little elusive to pin down on this question, but I would like to--

Why do you know that?

I don't know, my question is this though, give a rundown, what are the highlights? Give me some highlights from your journey from Spokane to where you are now cat sitting for a cat.

Highlights, see, that's the thing is even the highlights, there's a bunch that flashed through my mind, but it's all, you're not going to nail me down on this one, man.

Give me something like, oh wait, I'm just going to have to burn through my, the most difficult guess.

You know, this is the thing, can I, I know you really want me to answer this question, but I have to sum up, you know, I just finished this book called Original Thinking, and it actually talks about going back to the origin.

Origin. - Origin of everything.

Okay. - Of everything, like about life and how origin is more about like where you're at, the place that you're at, the place, time in the place that you're at.

Okay.

And it has a deconstructs time as well, so you're asking me to basically talk about something that I've just deconstructed over the course of.

I've built it back up, my friend. This such a life.

I have things I can't build it back up, because once you, after reading this book, this book was like, have you ever read Ishmael?

Yes, that's a, Daniel Quinn.

Yeah. - Yes.

This book is the new Ishmael.

Oh, cool. Is this the one you sent me? Is this the one you sent me, or is that a different one? That's a different book you sent me.

I might have sent it, I might have sent it to you.

Here's the question, I got a question for you. At some point you were somewhat aversa reading books, if I remember not too long ago, so.

Yeah, you know what happened is I changed my debit card. Here's a highlight of my life.

Yeah, there you go.

You know, they have the banks change your debit card, so you have the new chip.

Yeah, yes, I have this annoying chip that is super annoying, yeah.

Super slow, so you--

Yeah, they make it use the other, yeah, it's horrible, yeah.

Well, all of my accounts were linked to my old accounts, to my old debit cards.

Yes, yes.

So every subscription that I had, basically was canceled along the way, and then I'm like, oh, this is actually kind of nice, because now I don't, I can only need to resubscribe to the things that are important to me. But one of them was Netflix was canceled, and I was like, do I really need Netflix anymore? And I went on Hulu and I was watching South Park, but what really was important to me was like, you know, I just, I wanted to get information, 'cause it's mostly I watched documentaries, and I subscribed to CuriosityStream, and I sent some links to you on that. That has really opened up my mind.

And then from there, it was like, you know, I really wanted to get into books again, because you know that, okay, so this is part of the background, is that I got rid of everything that I own, except for my duffel bag, my backpack, and my suitcase, with a little bit of stuff in storage. But I basically don't own anything anymore. So I'm very cautious about where I spend my money, because I just don't want to spend money, so you know, I just did a trip to Seattle for some work, and I was like, you know, do I buy something here, do I buy something here? At the end of the day, it's like I'm just buying things that I can carry or travel with.

There are necessities of what you're doing.

There are necessities, and my luxury is books, but I only own three books. So in order for me to buy a new book, I have to finish one.

Right, and give it away to someone.

Have to trade it or give it away. And so today I just finished this book, Original Thinking, and then I picked up a new one called Sacred Economy, which is about like how we're going through this transitional economy into everything that we think and we believe and that we understand. I would say that you and I know about the world should be.

Yes.

You know, basically, if you look at a lot of the stuff that- - When you say the world should be, you mean like Donald Trump in charge of everything. That's what happened. - Absolutely, right, right.

Donald Trump just fucking us in the brain balls. (both laughing) Know it, everything that you and I have talked about before, not everything, but I mean, we kind of touched on this. And maybe this is more of my hippie thoughts, but that everything should be more equal. You know, if I want to play on an Xbox, I should be able to play on an Xbox and I shouldn't have to worry about. And I'm saying me, it's like any person that should be able to decide like, do you want to play a video game? Do you have the money for it or do you have to go to work? Like everybody, there's more, there's more flow.

Yes, sure, so anyway, I don't know if I answered your question.

No, no, why are you- So what you did, because you're reading more because now you have this policy of three, here's something I really love about you is you always have these interesting either thought experiments or real life experiments going on and many simultaneously. And I really like this book idea because I have, I don't know, 150 books that are three quarters of the way red or some way through the red and they're all in my nightstand and then they're in some other places. And I read them, like I don't, I usually don't just drop them. I mean, sometimes I read a book and be like, I'm never going to read this book.

Like that's happened to me. But I like your idea of having to, before you can get a new book, because if you're downscaling or downsizing rather, you have to finish it before you get another one and give it away or trade it in, which is pretty sweet. So, but why all of a sudden? So you watch some stuff and now you want to read?

No, because I want, I want to get more informed. But when you have, it's just like anything else when you have the internet in front of you, it's like, like you're really going to learn from that thing.

Well, you, yeah, you, I mean, the internet, right? It's neutral though, like there's really good stuff.

It's huge stuff. But I'm talking about, are you really going to invest your time into educating yourself? You're going too far apart of a portion of your time and then you're going to get distracted with this or that?

Yeah, it's much easier to get distracted on the web learning something.

So, yes.

So now what I do is I put earplugs in my ear, not earbuds, but earplugs to drown out the sound. So I don't hear anything and I'll sit down and I'll just, I'll drink some coffee and I'll plow through a book.

That's so awesome. I'm really happy to hear this because I literally remember recommending not that you would read those particular books, but I'd be like, hey, here's this awesome book. Here's this awesome book. You're like, I'm not going to read that. I'm watching YouTube clips. That's where I'm getting my information. It's like, oh, but I like the transition and I've noticed you've been sending me more and more stuff related to consciousness. So, okay, this leads me to another question. Look, man, I got questions. This isn't even off my shit. So I know you've been going around and you've mentioned this a few times to me and I think various places in social media and asking people what their quality of life is like.

So I will, can you explain why you're asking that and what you mean and what you've noticed by asking that to various people? So explain the genesis of that.

Okay, so the background, you know, I went to LA thinking that I could not, I basically New York was dissolving in front of me, the New York that I knew and that I wanted it to be. So I moved from New York to LA. And the first thing that I realized, the first day that I was there, I was swimming in a pool and I was like, this is fucking life. Like this is what life is meant to me.

Yeah, I remember seeing all these integrands.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was awesome.

Just that and I was shooting and having a good time and it was just, everything was just wonderful and beautiful and amazing, but the quality of life was really high. And when you talk to the people that are there, that's the conversation is, you know, the quality of life here in LA is way better than it is in you. Well, that's because people talk about the quality of life over there. You know, here in New York, everybody talks about New York and in Spokane, people don't talk about the quality of life. People in Portland talk about kind of like what you're doing. People in Chicago, it's definitely about what you're doing.

So some cities, they talk about the quality of life and some cities, the culture is about the city, some it's about weather, some it's about nature. But when you talk about the quality of life, then people can get into hobbies, they can get into, you know, what they're learning about, what their, maybe the work is their big thing. But the quality of life question, and part of it too is because I was thrown back in when I moved back to New York, I was thrown back into, okay, I got a hustle because you know how it is in New York. Like, do you, do you doing really well or you could be doing better?

So, and I wanted to be doing very well. So I jumped back into the game and I went to a magazine launch for this magazine, I originally had started and then I left them and so they'd be, you know, they're still friends and everything and they have a new issue out and I had some images in there. So I went to this launch and, you know, I was just catching up with you, I was like, you know, first I was, how are you doing or what's going on? What's new? - Sure, sure.

And it was all about this like, mask came on about, oh, everything's amazing, everything's doing great, everything's wonderful. You know, life is, job work is so fucking great. You know, I'm doing this and you know, I have two kids now and they're both awesome and it just became this like, oh God, it's so disgusting to be near you, you know what I mean? It's like you're so fucking perfect. And then basically everybody was trying to be a Donald Trump and Donald Trump is just representation of that aspect that we all carry at one point through our development.

Yeah, everyone has a little, no one wants to hear this but everyone has a little Donald Trump inside of them.

Fuck yeah.

Which hopefully does not conjure an image of like a very miniature-sized Donald Trump having sex with people but, you know, but everyone does have that whatever that Genesee Qua that he possesses. Everyone has that.

Yeah, and before I even move on, before we move on, I gotta say this, if you actually, I should let your listeners know, if they wanna hear the best podcast in the entire world, the best podcast, they should go to a walking home and subscribe to that.

You realize I'm just gonna bleep all that out. It's just gonna be cut right out of it. No, people know here, so what you don't know is in the past couple of episodes, I've been big upping your podcast in the natural flow of conversation, I might point out. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, Donald Trump, quality of life, talking about quality of life. This is just to the listeners out there. My main goal with this podcast is to make sure that me and Michael follow a seemingly coherent train of thought for about 60 minutes or so. So far we're doing okay.

My job is to disrupt that.

Yeah, yeah.

My job is to disrespect you on the MindPod network.

We're gonna get into MindPod network too. But okay, so go into, continue the quality of life thing. So you notice people putting on--

So the quality of life thing is just because it is an aspect of life and it opens up more interesting discussions. So in some cases, some of the examples that I got, just using that night alone, it was really cool because one of them was this, so we know we're standing in a group and I'm wearing earplugs, by the way, at this launch. So I can only hear the people who are directly in front of me. So I'm not distracted, so I'm extremely present and I will encourage people to experiment with earplugs as well because you can then, I'm like the oddball Tim Ferriss here. (laughing) It's like biohacking himself.

I'm like, what are the earplugs to a magazine launch?

Put that in your biography. Put the oddball Tim, Timothy Ferriss. There you go.

Well, I gotta like, I can't be associated exactly like him 'cause I don't wanna like, you know, be that kind of--

Yeah, sure, but anyway, so I'm asking, you know, how's your quality life? And this girl says, oh, actually, it's really fucking good. I finally found balance. That's what she was really happy to share. And I noticed like afterwards that I was not really tuned into hearing and I was like, psh, what are you talking about, balance? (laughing) You know, but now I recognize that, okay, that's actually somebody I should be talking to.

I have an answer, yeah.

Yeah, because it's a different experiment or a different thing I'm playing with, but I'm, you know how that you're basically, you're a, you're a sum of the people, the five people--

I've heard this, yes, yes, this is a thing, yeah.

Yeah, so I'm kind of reevaluating exactly who I want to spend the most amount of time with. And then my, so you have like, you know, your closest friends and then you have your ancillary friends and, you know, what I'm trying to do is whenever I hear it now, when I hear somebody say, oh, I have a balanced life, and it's like, okay, zero in on this person and ask them a lot of questions, because this person probably can lead me to a better way than this other person who I asked, maybe like a few minutes later, she said, when I said, how's your quality? Oh my God, actually it's terrible. It's like, I don't, and it was like the first person who's ever asked her, like, really asked her seriously, like, how are you doing?

'Cause we all asked, you know, a minute ago, someone asked her, how are you doing? And she's like, oh, I'm doing great, it works great, it's cool.

Yeah, well, you know, but when you do, so it's like in that case, then I have to decide, okay, well, is this something that I can ask that person? It's gonna question, it can kind of lead them toward the next step? 'Cause, you know, I've learned, too, that I can't help everybody.

Yes, that's a really important thing.

This is the part of the podcast where Michael Skype got all scapy and started to break up, so I'm gonna feed in with me, reiterating what he said, and getting back to what he was saying, which was about helping people. Okay, you enjoy, talk about what you were saying, like, you're just doing things, you know, you're just, you don't know why you're doing them, but they're happening, and--

They're just happening, and so life is just happening, and I'm just watching it and just letting it do its thing. And what I was saying before, too, is that there's a, it's uncomfortable to say, but there's a certain kind of bravery that you have to, I'm learning to develop and nourish, because it's so easy to just do, just plug in and follow all this status quo. And there's a few people out there that are, there's lots of people out there that are doing something different, or trying to look at the world in a different way, but it starts to break out between the theory and then the actual practice, and I think one thing about spirituality is it's about the human spirit, or it's about the spirit, it's about the spirit, so it's like, you know, it's the human spirit, the animal spirit, the spirit of the rocks, the fire, the river, everything, the spirit of time, it's all this bigger spirit, and so to be somebody that just accepts that and then works it out, it's kind of like, I think my frustration with science and how science, like, well, let's point at the Big Bang, and this is what happened, and it's like, well, that's a theory, and science, you know, my science friends will say, well, no, this is the truth, this is the reality, and it's the same thing as somebody that's pointing to the Bhagavad Gita and saying, this is the truth.

Right, right, this is the fundamental.

Same thing as someone pointing to the Bible, it's like, okay, so we're talking religion here, which means that we're talking stories, let's not call it myth, let's call it stories, which means that it's just more stories, so why not be our own stories and live our own stories, and then I'll also try to dig deeper and find deeper stories, and-- - So, I like what you're saying two very complicated things here, too, which is, I agree with, I have also, and we've spoken about this, and I'm continuously amazed that science, and I'm very appreciative of all the amazing breakthrough science is offered, and I don't mean to admonish it as an entire category and way of thinking, but you know, the definition of science is you're always improving upon what has been built, or your radical reassessment of what has been done, like Einstein's theory of relative.

Wasn't it, was it a learn? Isn't that what science was, the root is to learn, so if it's to learn, that doesn't necessarily mean proving your theory-- - Correct, correct. Well, this is like a lot of things in the world now. A lot of these systems like the scientific, you know, academic world, they're systematic, they run in a certain way, they run sometimes for money, with grants, they run sometimes for research, trying to help things, they run to know more about the world, you know, but oftentimes that can devolve into just people trying to, you know, do science for a particular thing, and not necessarily have an impact on the world for the good.

Now, the other thing you said is this is spirituality, right? You mentioned that, you know, myths and stories, you know, one of the things that I've always gravitated towards with spirituality stuff or these mystic side of things, the mysticism of it is the ability of these stories and myths, not only to relate, to connect kind of personal experiences to a more universal experience, but also as their ability to function kind of as metaphors or, you know, microcosms or macrocosm stories of what we experience on, you know, a daily basis, whether we recognize it or not. What I'm ultimately interested in is, you know, the fusion of those two concepts, which is why it's very encouraging to see, you know, someone like the Dalai Lama say that, listen, if science proves any aspect of Buddhism wrong, I mean, he says this tongue in cheek, truthfully, but he says if science proves any aspect of Buddhism wrong, we'll change it, like, we're not gonna be dogmatic about this, but he says that because he knows, you know, many of the underlying concepts in Buddhism were achieved and found through a very different way, but still fundamentally hold true.

So I definitely hear what you're saying. I mean, one of the issues that I've noticed, and this is what I really wanted to talk to you about, because this relates to what was going on with my iPod network and, you know, what you're doing with your podcast too, is kind of labeling things as spiritual in a category and then not spiritual in a category, right? Like, well, this is spiritual, but this isn't. And that's something I would like to hear you kind of talk about, like, what do you think that's about? What do you think the potential pitfalls of that are? And can you give kind of a brief definition of what you think spiritually out, spirituality?

Spirituality is, you know, past being of the spirit. What does it mean to you?

Well, you know, once I got terminated by the spiritual terminator from my iPod, and I blew a gasket for a moment, I think I said to you that all of this shit is, is it's something to pick you up when you're down. You know, it's just, it's all. And I think back to when I was a kid and I got, you know, in your initial question of like, come where you're from. And I think about one of the first awards, I always got awards in school and, you know, it was for, you know, the best student, student of the month awards, student of the week award, like all of those. And then I'd get most inspirational. And I think that that is just about picking people up.

So to me, part of the spiritual thing is that, you know, you're gonna have some ups and downs. It's 2016. People are gonna have ups and downs over the next year. Next 365 days, good shit's gonna happen and bad shit's gonna happen. And all the spirituality is just saying like, well, the bad shit will happen and you'll get back up. And I mean, it's one of the functions for sure. I mean, do you think that's the only function of it or? I mean,

You have spiritual experience or someone called religious experience. I mean, there's more to it, but I mean, when it all boils down to it, it's just that life happens. We're just living life. We don't know what this is. You know, it's all, it's all just entertainment.

Well, what I would say is this, is when you ask someone a question, like what is the quality of your life? That to me is, and spiritual again, is I'm asking you a question, you know, to define spirituality that I truthfully would probably have a very hard time defining what that is, even in my life. But when you ask a question like that, what is your quality of life, you're, that is the essence of trying to connect, which I believe is a manifestation of trying to help people, right? I mean, that is, that's what we're all trying to do here. I do think that there's a lot of entertainment that happens in life, but ultimately, what we're all, would be ideal.

Obviously, you mentioned this before, when things are a little more equal and a little more fair, is we wanna make the world kind of a better place, because we see things at times where it's like, "Well, that could be done a little bit better." And how to, you know, really affect change, not only in the external world, but internally. I do see as a benefit, but I wanna be clear, like, I don't mean that it has to be your studying the Bhagabad Gita, or the Bible, or Taoism, or any spiritual thing, or astrology, or anything you would label as, quote unquote, spiritual, it can be, you know, watching sports.

If that really, it could be listening to a piece of music or a band, it could be going out in nature. Like, these are things that I all think are spiritual or of the same quality that we're talking about.

Yeah, you know what it is? This is all just a commercial for life. So, you know, we don't know where the hell we came from before we were here, and we don't know where we're going afterwards. We don't understand any of this stuff. We don't understand. We really don't even understand a river. We think that we understand what it is, but it's like, okay, explain to me what water is again, and how it all doesn't just all connect and turn into a solid, and then sometimes it does, it freezes, and then it goes, it evaporates, and it all flows in it. What the fuck is this? And it can corrode rocks, or it can, you know, we don't even know what the hell that is.

We don't even know if we're going to end up becoming a water molecule that's, maybe when we die, we'll become a water molecule in a river, maybe in a stream, maybe in an ocean, maybe we'll become a star. We don't know any of this shit. So, you know, I like to, one of the questions I've been playing with lately too, and asking people is, do you remember before you were, ruin your kid and you'd think about what life was like before you were born? And, you know, this is probably before we had language skills, and we would kind of think about, oh yeah, that place that I was before, and if someone asked you as a small child before you had language skills, you might be able to describe it, but we lose that because we're caught up in looking at the wind, moving branches and trees and stuff.

It's all so confusing. Anyway, the whole thing is, is that at one point, I think that there's a commercial for life, and we're all just trying to sell life. So, for some people, it's sitting, it's like, look how beautiful it is when you have people doing yoga. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't it beautiful? Somebody going to a rock concert and drinking beer and having a good time with their friends. Like, it all looks like a commercial. And, and that's essentially what I think it is, is that just all of this stuff is just, it's like, live, live, live, live, live, live, live.

I know, I mean, I don't know. - And enjoy it, yeah.

I think about that too. Like, one of the first words I learned as a kid was the word commercial. I remember asking my mom, we were in front of the television, I said, "Mom, what is this?" And she says, "It's a commercial." And it's like, was she talking about what was on television or was she talking about life? And so, now I'm just like, you know what? That's what life is. Life is just a big commercial. So, just enjoy it because it's like, you know, it's going to be highs and it's going to be lows. It's like this like, 86 year old commercial.

Well, and it's like, how do you, how do you deal, you know? And that's one of the things we were talking just about the Dalai Lama, right? Was briefly, you know, Buddhism, it's, it's suffering, right? The alleviation, it's first the acknowledgement that suffering exists, it's a thing. These are the components of it. And then eventually, the alleviation of suffering, not only for yourself, but for everyone. And I think one of the things that you're describing is, is a lot of people, everyone is going to have ups and downs in life, regardless, right? I mean, that's, it's inevitable. You cannot be shielded from that in any way, shape, or form.

But it's, what tools do you use to be aware of why those sufferings happen in those, you know, tragedies or mini tragedies or whatever that they are? And then how do you deal with them in a way that makes it a little bit easier, something to grasp onto? And I think there's a lot of different approaches to that, which leads me to another question I have for you is, can you, I know you've done ayahuasca and you've done DMT. And I would like to, as someone, I have not done ayahuasca or DMT. I know many people will have. I'd like you to give kind of a brief overview of your personal experience with ayahuasca.

And yeah, just your personal experience with it. I mean, I've done it a few times. I've done it in mostly in New York, sometimes Brooklyn. I wanted to make sure that the two counties are separated. But I've done it several times and my personal experience is that it's, it's just been good. It's, it's, it's been good.

Nice, nice, very descriptive, Michael. Thank you for that. - Well, what a nice question.

Well, yeah, it's the same thing. Go to, go describe the atmosphere to me.

Sure, sure.

Go describe it how it's free goes from us.

Give me, give me some. I'm asking you as a friend, not even for the podcast. I haven't done ayahuasca. I am interested in it. I haven't had the calling, so to speak, to do it, which I know a lot of people have. Some people don't, they do it otherwise. But what, I'm not asking you to sell it to me, but describe what the actual experience was like. Give me, like, give me a breakdown of one of those times you've done it.

Well, that's the thing is that every experience is different. Every, every experience is different. And I mean, it's, it's really hard to just sum up like pretty quickly, you know?

Sure, sure, I get that.

To like a talking point. Like if you go to Walking Home Podcast, there's actually been a few episodes that we've done where we've taken, I've taken friends who we've done a podcast the night before they've done ayahuasca and then the day after we have a discussion or I've done it and then had episodes, you know?

Again, I'm bleeping all of this out. I'm not, there's no self-promotion on my show. So it's just gonna be cut out.

Well, no, I'm telling you because for real, it's like, you know, that's three hours that we've been able to talk about.

And then I mean that jokingly, of course, there is some really, really good conversations about it. But, you know, I've had a couple of people come on, I had Dennis McKenna, I had Alan Badina, you know, and they gave some general, some personal experiences with it, but I would love to hear one of your personal experiences with it, give me something for fuck's sake, Jesus, Mike.

I'm bleeping out. Basically my experience, again, every experience I've had, every experience I've had has been different.

Sure.

They all kind of build up on top of each other. You know, the last one I had was the roughest one, but it was also very, is a very strong experience and a very powerful experience. It was very interesting and unique experience. I don't know, I mean, I feel like I can give you examples, which one would you rather hear about the books or would you rather hear about the alien spacecraft or would you rather hear about the female orgasm?

I have these are all three different.

I can't hear about all of those. Can I pick two of the three?

The conversation with a ghoul could know 'cause they're so long. You know what I mean?

Yeah, that's okay. They sound pretty good.

So pick one.

I'm gonna go with the alien spacecrafts.

So alien spacecraft was the last one that I did. And that one was fucking weird. That one, I basically, when after we drank it, we're sitting around and it's waiting for it to kick and it finally kicked in. And when it did, I realized, you know, this thing was kind of building up and then I realized that we were on this spacecraft. You know, everybody was doing ayahuasca and we had a choice. Basically, I had to make a choice to stay on Earth or to leave. And it was all about like really hard choices. It was A/B choices. It was not like anything in the middle. It was like, if you're gonna stay on this then you're gonna stay on.

And it's like, yeah, I wanna stay on. It's like, are you sure? Because then you're gonna have to say goodbye to everybody behind. So you leave behind and it's like, fuck, I don't wanna do that. And it's like, well, there's no compromise. So it's either or. And so then I had to say, what's that?

What did you choose?

Well, I had to say goodbye to some people and then it got down to one person that was very hard for me to say goodbye to her. And I was like, I don't wanna say goodbye to her. They're like, you have to choose. And I was trying to make a deal to get, to get both.

Sure.

And while working on that deal, everything kind of evaporated and then I was in space. So I don't know, I got to keep her in my world, but I also went to space, but it was to negotiate that deal was a lot of work. And again, that's something it might sound crazy.

No, no, no, this doesn't, this doesn't.

But then once I got on there, now I'm a spaceship. So now I'm this metal spaceship, this organic metal spaceship. And have you ever seen batteries not included?

No.

Okay, basically there's these little robots that come flying up and that was kind of visual that I had. And so the robots came up and they were like, you know, you've got a, what do you need to work on? And it's like, I can't remember exactly what I said, but you know, the first one was like, I need to work on this like gratitude or something.

Sure, sure, sure.

And it's like, okay, it's like, it starts working on it. It's like, what else do you need to work on? And then I list something and it's like working on that. It's like, what else? And then I list something else and I was like, what else is like? And then the aliens were kind of like, let's say something, it's like, okay, seriously, you got a lot of work to be done. (laughing)

A lot of things to do.

So then they're like, anything else. And I was like, yeah, I want to work on judgment. I judge too much. And then they were like, ooh, ooh, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. And keep in mind this whole interaction is a total of like 15, 20 minutes. But they were like, oh, that's a tough one. I was like, yeah, I know, but I want to get rid of judgment. They're like, no, well, the thing is like, that might have deeper consequences. If you get rid of judgment, you might end up becoming retarded. And I don't mean that to be insulting or whatever, but it's like, that's the language that it was using.

And I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, and they're like, like socially retarded. You might become people might not understand you.

Sure. - Sure.

Sure. - And it was like, what do you mean? They're like, well, because if you're not judging this part of our system, part of the structure that had been built around me, at least for my perception, has been full of judgment.

Sure. - And again, if you look at like our political system, you look at using Donald Trump's examples.

Yeah, you have to make some type of call, choices. It sounds like the whole thing is related to choice. Yeah, no, I totally get that. Yeah. - So finally, so then I was like, yeah, I want to do this. Like, are you sure you want to do this? I'm like, yeah. And then it was like, okay, you're going to do this. And I'm like, yes, let me do this. And then you know when you get a new electronic device and it has that, when you have to take that little piece of paper out from the battery?

Yeah.

It has a warning on that, saying warning. If you pull this, you may become retarded.

Oh my God.

And I had to pull it. You know, it's like I physically have this thing. And order to end judgment. And of course, it's not like you just snap out of it. Like you hear these stories about people doing ayahuasca. And it's like, it changed my life right the second, but it didn't change it like right that second, but it, you know, sees things that I'm, you know, I still have judgment because I'm judging what's the quality of life. You know, you still have these judgment calls, but it does start to work on, it starts to unravel things. And.

Well, I think it's, it's, I really, that's, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that too.

Let me ask you.

Go ahead.

What's your, what's, because you know, you don't have the calling and I totally get that respect. I just had a friend that I hooked up with my shaman so that she can't, 'cause she was getting the calling and I said, okay, now she's been talking about it for years. Like I wanna do that, you know, I would think about it.

Yeah.

And then finally, she's like, Michael, I need to do this now. I got the calling, keep it helping. And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got one this weekend, you wanna go?

Sure.

So, so, but because, you know, you don't, you don't have the calling, why do you care?

Well, I care for a couple of reasons. A, I think I can use some type of forecasting to think that I probably will do it at some point in my life. Number one, so I like to, before I like I did LSD when I was 15, I read voraciously about LSD and psychedelic experiences. I am, maybe, I just like to be prepared, even though, of course, of course, of course, of course, it has no real relation to actually doing the thing itself, but I like to hear the stories of it. And the second reason is, is that, you know, just three of these, four of these have related to ayahuasca. People who have either had personal experiences or have done research on it.

So, it's just a little theme that I'm noticing emerge, which may mean something looking back upon this, but yeah, that's basically where my interest comes from that. And then also, just, you know, from hearing a few people's experiences, you know, this is true to me. They help me, too. Like, what you just described is a very important kind of like story, for lack of a better word, of like choice, right, and judgment. And judgment is always something, I've had points in my life where I can honestly say, not for very long periods of time, where I have had no judgment. And rather than it being like an amazing, awesome experience, it's kind of like what those aliens told you.

It's very uncomfortable. It's socially awkward. You do become retarded, not in the sense of like being mentally challenged, but you're slowed down, you're not communicating as effectively because you're not making a lot of sense to people, because you have no judgment, you're not, in judgment, there's two, let's break this down. Judgment as in judging someone, like, hey, they're doing that, and that's bad. That's judging to me. Being discerning, like being like, hey, there's fire in front of me. I'm not gonna touch it. That's a judgment call, but it's using discerning. It's like using wisdom and knowledge for your benefit, not being like, well, that fire is evil because it burned me.

That's a judgment. So I wanna make that distinction, but back to your question. I mean, I think I'm interested in these stories because there's always some kernel of like deep truth to these experiences. When people are able to articulate like you were, what the experiences were about, and I just like touching upon those. I'm supposed to ask you questions. Why are you asking me questions? This is, jeez.

Fixing your podcast.

Yeah, yeah.

For people who listen. (laughing)

It's relatively popular. I will say thank you.

I know, I heard about it on the train the other day. (laughing)

Okay, so we're actually, we have quite a bit of material here. We're gonna end it in a little bit, but speaking about podcasting, can you--

Well, we lost 10 minutes of that.

No, I know we did, and that'll be explained. I'm gonna put, I'm gonna do like an acapella song, myself singing something in between there. It'll make a nice little transition. But speaking of podcasting, I wanted to, you are one of the people who A, encouraged me to start a podcast, but also just seeing you have your own podcast was very encouraging and kind of the impetus for me to do it in some ways, because I saw you were getting all of these other things out of it, like it was a creative outlet, but you got to talk to people, like, can you talk about the role podcasting has had in your life and what you've noticed, the benefits or not benefits or just, you know, your team podcasting.

Yeah, I mean, this is--

I feel like I'm being all serious on this one. (laughing)

But since we're not conversing, we're just--

I'm interviewing you.

Yeah, so, you know, I told you from the beginning that the first year will change your life, and it continues to change because, you know, you're exploring things and you're kind of, it's like hungry hippo, but instead of all moving toward the center, it's like all outwards and you're grasping for nourishment with all of your questions and, you know, the questions you don't answer, get answered today that are sitting on the rest of your list, you're, it's gonna be stewing and then you're gonna have other questions, you know, it's complicated, but you start to get, it starts to sort things out, it's really good therapy.

I think one of the biggest, there's so many benefits of it, too, it's weird because I was on this other podcast recently and the person running it, it's like, hey, I need some images of yours, I'm doing this thing and, you know, I really wanna turn this into a money thing and I'm like, it's not about the money. Like, it's nice because now I'm doing some, you know, I did some public speaking, that was up based off of being a guest on Duncan Show, but I'm getting, you know, my artwork is selling more and, you know, these little like the financial side of it and I was trying to, you know, drafting this email to send, I was like, you know, I get these benefits but the real benefit is the different type of community the way that I can talk with people because, you know, I work in an industry, and we've talked about this before, I work in an industry where people don't really talk and it's kind of this industry that gets shit on quite a bit because people don't know how to talk, it's a visual industry, it's based off of aesthetics and based off of what's happening in the popular culture and it's a reflection of pop culture, it's like this like a echo chamber and occasionally like you scream something differently and it comes back with a different sound and, you know, you're working in it, it's a different, it's a special environment that I'm working around and the people, the community is starting to open up, when I first started this, I couldn't get people to talk, I couldn't get, it's really hard for me to get people to take it seriously and I was kind of getting pushed out, squeezed out in a way from my industry because they were like, what the fuck is he talking about the stuff publicly and openly about?

We don't talk about this stuff, we don't give the models voices or, you know, I don't know what the thoughts was, but that's kind of the feeling that I was getting.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and the other day, you know, I got contacted by one of the hairstyles that I work with and she's like, you know, I really like to do a conversation with you under podcast, you know, I was an alcoholic and I heard this other one that you did with one of the makeup artist whose father murdered her mother, I'd like to, you know, I heard how that probably helped people, I think this could help people too. So suddenly I'm getting these interactions with my community or the people I work with, like a total other quality of conversation.

Right.

And seeing how, I'm curious how it's gonna affect you because you know, you, you know, you have your day work which is computer stuff.

Yeah, that actually is what my professional description of job is.

Your business card is computer stuff, yeah, yeah.

Well, you know what I mean? Like, you probably have people within your field but you don't really seem to associate with them. You associate more with the teachers of and theologians and psychedelics and spirituality. So it's like, you know, you're probably, you know, I'm curious, like, you know, are you gonna bring in the people that do what you do for a day job or are you going to start drifting more into the space of being, you know, the next version of the mechanics or the, you know, kind of, you know, it's like, but the thing is like, I don't think, that's the funny thing is I realized who's you have to have, like this has become a hobby for me.

And if you look at like Joe Rogan, it's like, this is one third of his work. He does his broadcast, but he also does MMA and he also does his comedy. If you look at Duncan, he does his comedy. He has his video game world and then he has this. And, you know, same thing. I have my photography and my artwork and then I have my podcast and then I have, I don't know what the hell my third, other third is.

Being awesome.

Well, no, no, no, it's like, I really, I'm trying to define that next third right now. But anyway, the whole thing, I don't know if this is all too long-winded.

No, it's not at all. I mean, you're making me think.

The question is like, I started interacting with my community, which doesn't really have a voice. Like one of the characters that I'm bringing on, I don't wanna say this is actually gonna have him because everybody continues to fall through. One of them is, so if this comes out, it's great. If it doesn't, you know, that's what happens or I'll get it later, is one of the agents of one of the biggest photographers in the world who's making millions a day. And, you know, it's like, let's talk about how photography has changed and art has changed and then bringing in a male model. Like when, there's never been a male model who's, we've heard speak.

That is, Fabio, Fabio, Fabio, is that his?

Seriously, and he's a joke. Like people take that joke. - Well, that is true. That is, I can't believe it's not butter. That's his, yeah.

But that's the thing is like, he's a butt of a joke.

Right.

And so to get, you know, getting like an iconic male model to come in and be like, hey, this is a human fucking being. And then, you know, going back to the whole mind pot thing. So when I was on there, where I was, you know, trying to figure out how this all fits together. And, you know, we've had this discussion before too. It's like, no, maybe I'm not talking about consciousness all the time, but these are people who are not being heard. These are human beings and people will make jokes about male models because it's like, who the fuck cares? It's just a male model. It's like, this is a human fucking being who's trying to start a farm who's spending his, you know, he's making less, this is the one industry where male, or men make 70% of the women.

And not even that thing. It's like 60% or 50% of what women make. There's, if you look at like huge ad campaigns, a male model might make like $2,000 while the female model in that same campaign might make like three million.

Yeah.

You know, like that's a huge discrepancy. And, you know, I don't know. I guess it's like, I'm going on a little rant right now.

Well, no, I can sense that. But I mean, I think what you're talking about podcasting too and how this relates is your podcast to me seems to be about, and you've spoken about a couple of concepts to me privately, and I think both of them, they hold true for you. One is the normalization of somewhat fringe or unspoken about areas. You know, people don't have voices, and that's the other thing, is giving people voices and interviewing people who you like and think have something to offer. Whether that's quote unquote spiritual or not or consciousness related isn't really the focal point, but in some ways it is, it's just not overtly being spoken about.

And that's something I've noticed.

It goes back to what the spirit is. It's like we're all going through this experience, right? So if we're all going through this experience, but it's not seen as normal, your life is not considered normal because you haven't seen it in pop culture. And the only place that you've read about it is in a book and the person that had that same lifestyle as you in that book, that person was a piece of shit or was treated something or whatever.

Sure.

I saw something on, was it Tumblr or Instagram? It was like a screenshot and it was something about how there's like a hero character. I have not seen Star Wars, so if you've seen it, don't ruin it for me, but there's--

Yeah, I haven't seen any of this at all.

Yeah, so okay. So basically they said that there was a hero character in the Star Wars that they said could be the first gay hero in a movie. And I thought about that because, you know, when I was in LA, I heard that Will Smith is gay and that was like the big talk about Hollywood. Like everybody talks about it openly, but no one will ever, because you can't have a gay hero, so he can't be openly gay. And Hollywood could be wrong about that. That was just a rumor that was going through there. But it was like, you know, because people in the Midwest would not spend money to go see a gay hero. And here it is, like if this is true, if Star Wars does have a gay hero, can you imagine the ramifications that could have?

Because typically in the past, it would be like, how many times where gay people use this to punchline versus being a real human being. And I think that's the thing is that, I think where the PC culture with the comedy world is where they're really struggling is because a lot of punchlines have to be removed from people's material, because people have been punchlines for so long and they don't know how to do material for this stuff. It doesn't mean that like you can't make fun of situations and things like that, but because so many people have been punchlines, well, that leaves a, that's a lot of new material people have to come up with and they don't know how to necessarily communicate that.

And I don't know, I guess, you know, with going back to the podcast thing, it is taking people who have been disenfranchised by pop culture and people who are creating pop culture that are living with cognitive dissonance. Because, you know, a lot of people that are in this industry that I work in, they, you know, they're good people. You know, they're good people. They do yoga and they meditate and they, but then they go on retreats, they travel around the world, they're doing all this stuff, but they gotta make a living and they like making art. So they try to combine the two. And, you know, and that's what the podcast kind of helps too is to show that the people that are like, no matter what situation you're in, like you're probably dealing with some form of cognitive dissonance.

Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, if you're living in this country, I think cognitive dissonance, very rare are the people who do not experience that. It's just a, it's one of those things that the way our society has evolved. Yeah, it's definitely something everyone has to deal with.

Do you think that, I don't even think, do you think? It's like, 'cause everybody does. What form of cognitive dissonance is Donald Trump dealing with? Because when I look at him, I see a little scared boy who has embraced narcissism in order to fight the world. You know, that's a superhero thing.

He's just like, he's digging what he's putting out at this point. It's like a perpetual motion machine at this point. Like it eventually will flame out in some way, obviously. I mean, I don't think this is gonna end with him being president. And even if it did, that's not gonna end well. So God, I hope you saw president though. But my point is that I think he's just kind of buying his own hype at this point. So it's probably really fun for him.

Have you watched him?

Yeah, oh yeah, no.

Have you watched the Republican debates?

Yeah, of course, of course. It's like must see TV at this point. I mean, it is.

But did you get that sense when you watch him too? It's kind of like, you know, there's the bullshit that he says, which is the scared little boy that's scared of people who are different than him and wants to like be the hero. But then there's this other part where you kind of get the sense that in some ways he kind of has it right.

Well, that's-

In certain aspects where it's like, man, you know.

It's the authenticity. He's being authentic, even if that authentic version of himself is a prick. Do you know what I mean? People respect authentic people, even if they're just wildly inappropriate. But I mean, there is-

You know what I mean.

Yeah.

I agree with you, and I think at the very end of it, sorry, I don't have to cut you off.

No, no, no, no.

At the very end, you know, when they get into closing statements, he kind of had this moment where he was, and again, this is not, you know, he's not supposed to say this around your liberal friends. And I have all the hippie liberal friends. I think I'm probably one of the liberalists most liberal, but he had this moment at the very end where he's kind of like, if you just changed his words and he just saw what he was, you know, the way he was saying, he's just like, guys, we're scared.

Yeah.

And we're all scared. We don't know how this is gonna turn out. And I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do my best to like, be strong during these times. And then it's like, oh, I like that. I like that. - Right.

But I don't like the way you're approaching it.

Well, I don't really-

And I don't think that we have to be scared. So- - I don't know, it's just hard for me. You know, I think everyone in life, if you have those moments where you're like, I like that person, you know, I really like that person. They seem like a good person. And for as much as we may look at Donald Trump and be like, how could anyone think that about this person? He is not a good person. He's doing mean and bad things. Someone may be saying, you know, he checks all the boxes that I need to have that of a good person. And those qualities you're mentioning is, you know, a desire to keep America strong and, you know, be protective and help and do things right and get things done and not have things be the same bullshit they always have been.

Like, I can see it striking a chord with enough people to at least warrant his popularity at this point. That being said, I still, in many ways, I'm incredulous that it's gotten here. I think it's just more of an indictment of how fed up people are with how things have been going for the past, I don't know, 50, 60 years, a really long time.

I think that people that are really supportive of him are also the people that I think it represents the same group. As people were scared of a boogeyman.

Well, yeah, because it doesn't exist. We're just, we're floating down a stream, bitches. Like, that's all it is.

I just think it's hard to convince people of that, if it's much easier to convince people to be afraid of something than it is to not be afraid of something, right? I mean, I just think that's a fact. You can come up with a lot of scary situations really quickly and then to try to deconstruct those scary situations might be a little more difficult.

But that goes back to the bravery thing. You know, it's, if everybody takes like one brave step each day and the brave steps doesn't need to be, you know, the brave step doesn't need to be to solve all the world's problems, but the brave step might be, I don't know, reading something that challenges you or it could be talking to somebody who you feel uncomfortable with.

Well, you know, talking to a family member that you really don't want to talk to, you know, because it's that those brave steps add up so that we start to see that we don't need to be sick. There's nothing to be saved of. You know, the fear is just in our head. We don't really have to be brave. We just have to experience life. It's like--

So let me, I'm gonna ask you my last question now and this is something I've been asking a lot of people. What are some practical tips that you have found in your life to kind of alleviate some of that suffering or make it a little bit easier? What, just give me like one or two things. Like, you know, difficult things in life, you know, difficult situations, relationship laws, you know, turmoil, the things that everyone has to face at one point or the other. It doesn't have to be major, but just, you know, the uncomfortable part of time of being human. Like what are some practical tips you got?

Practical tips of being a human being. And I, okay, I'm gonna, actually I stole something from you. And I stole it from one of my guests as well. I've stolen this from a lot of people, but it's as simple as gratitude. Like if you start off the day and an offensive, grateful you don't need to be defensive.

Yeah.

So, you know, that was one of my, one of my guests had said, you know, it's like one of the model's agents. Like, you know, they, I really need the girls to understand they just have to be grateful. If your grateful life lines up for you and I was like, fuck, yeah, okay. And then I started to, you know, apply this thing. And then, you know, I told you about my alarms that go off throughout the day and meditate and you're like, oh, I changed those to gratitude once.

Yeah.

Well, since then I changed all of mine to gratitude. So I have, okay, so this is the practical way for your audience, our audience to do this is a, I have four or five alarms go off throughout the day. So I have a nine o'clock, one o'clock, five o'clock, one of the evening and then I'll have like a surprise alarm whenever, but they basically are gratitude reminders. So throughout the day and just as gratitude. And so my phone just goes off and then I just focus for a moment on just being grateful. After a while that alarm could get annoying and then I just be grateful for that alarm being annoying.

But it's the thing is I now wake up grateful. The first thing in the morning, I wake up grateful. So it's very hard for me to like steer off course when everything is amazing.

Yeah.

You know, I have conditioned to myself just to be amazed and grateful and all these things. So it's, that's a very long-winded response.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Very simple task of reminding yourself constantly to be grateful versus, 'cause then really you are in the offense, you're not in the defense of.

What's gonna fuck up now? This is gonna happen, holy shit. I listen, perfect, perfect, perfect answer. It's one of the, it's probably the most important thing in my life that I've noticed. And it doesn't, I also have the alarm that goes off and I've also been annoyed by it before and then marvel at that, I'm getting annoyed about telling gratitude, which is a funny experience. But no, it means-

You wake up in the morning grateful though too now?

No, no, I don't. I can't say that I do.

I snap, my alarm clock is just not my phone. It's just me, like I'll wake up and I'll just immediately, and I'm trying to get rid of the whole God thing, but I'll be like, you know, thank you, God.

Right, I do that.

Great thing. I'm gonna get rid of the God thing where I'm just like, "Ah, thank you." - Thank you.

This is so great. And I'll just look around, like, this is great, this is great, it'll be cloudy, and I'll have like a moment, I'm like, "Ah, clouds suck." And they'll be like, "No, I'm grateful for the clouds."

It's the biggest, it is truthfully, I think you get into a secret of life. It's like the cheat code for life. I really, really believe that, regardless of life circumstances, and you don't wanna do it in a phony way, like don't force it, don't feel like I'm grateful that I stubbed my toe. Like, if you can really get to that place, do it, of course. But like, just genuine gratitude as many times as you can throughout your life. I think just really, you'd be amazed at what you notice. 'Cause I also think gratitude does a couple of things. Obviously, you're showing appreciation and gratitude for things, but it's also a slight awareness practice.

So you're being aware of having to be grateful and of things that are going on, where it just kind of jostles you out of your regular pattern of, for me at least, like you ask, do I wake up being grateful? Sometimes I do, but sometimes I'm like, fuck, I gotta do a lot of shit. I have all these things and it's an active battle, what you would say is being on the defensive, and that's why those gratitude alarms really, really help. So awesome, awesome response, really good. Well, thank you, Michael, for coming on. We'll definitely do this again soon. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

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