Ep. 12 - Eric Zimmer from The One You Feed

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

Welcome to episode 12 of Synchronicity. This is, no, no, I gotta start that over. Welcome to episode 12 of Synchronicity. The, I can't do this great today. All right, take three. I'm gonna, if I nail this, I'm gonna play the other two. Welcome to Synchronicity, episode 12. My guest today is Eric Zimmer and from the One You Feed podcast. All right, that was not a great intro, but I'm gonna lead that one because, you know, how many times you can do this? Mercury is in retrograde, by the way. That was pointed out to me by one of my favorite people, Maureen, who is part of Love Server Member Foundation.

Maureen is the greatest person. If you don't know Maureen, your life is somehow incomplete and you don't know it. But she pointed out that Mercury was in retrograde as we were dealing with the work situation. And it makes total sense. Like part of me, I believe in astrology. I don't go and necessarily get my horoscope. But I believe in it. And, but part of me doesn't want to believe in it. Like, okay, well, no, this can be explained rationally in some very simple way. But honestly, it's felt since Mercury has been in retrograde, and I don't know exactly when it started, but at least for me, a couple weeks now.

Oh man, things have just been going haywire. I mean, technologically, relationship will personally, all these things, it's just crazy, not horrible, but just like, things are going haywire. So Mercury's in retrograde. I think it ends January 25th. So I'm looking forward to that. I don't expect everything to get suddenly great then, but you know, if maybe just like one or two things could go a little less haywire, that would be nice. Including things that have gone haywire. One of my favorite people on the planet, musicians, just people, David Bowie passed away earlier this week. And that sucks, he was super awesome.

He also just released a new album, Black Star, which is really, it's good, good album. Not my favorite David Bowie album, but I don't think it has to be my favorite. But it's a good album, it's really cool. And I only listened to it a couple times, but I know there's some stuff on there that's totally worth revisiting. But anyway, more to the point, he's got some of my favorite albums, period, just so many good albums. My favorite David Bowie albums, here we go. Unfortunately, I do fall into the trap that Ziggy Stardust is my favorite David Bowie album. I had it on vinyl, and I think my parents did, and I loved it, and so that is my favorite.

Maybe it's a little obvious, but it's so good. It's so good, and it's when you're a kid, it's got nostalgia in it, just a great album. I love "Hunky Dory", I really love "Hunky Dory", there's some amazing songs in there. And then I think probably my third favorite is Aladdin saying Which I actually really didn't like the first few times I heard it, but that's a great album anyway I'm not going on a whole David Bowie kick just in terms of music. I think it was just a really really awesome person and personally on social media I've noticed just such an outpouring of admiration and respect and love and It's really it's pretty awesome the only other time I can remember because I was talking about this with a friend What other time was there something like this where everyone was just like universally like oh my god?

Totally crazy and Michael Jackson had it And I love Michael Jackson, and I definitely was devastated when he you know he was he was younger too But you know there was a little twist there because he has the allegations against him You know sexual misconduct whether you believe that or not There's some bit of darkness David Bowie for the most part Everyone just kind of seems to really just respect and admire and it's just really a nice thing to see cuz his he was beyond a musician for a lot of people He was progressive in sexuality You know in just kind of pushing the boundaries of what an entertainer was and then just like you know in the past few days I've seen so many videos and little clips where he was just like You know, he was challenging the head of MTV in an interview about why there was no black people on MTV They were hitting amazing music and videos and why weren't they do just like, you know at a time where it didn't behoove him to do that Except he's David fucking Bowie and he wanted to do that. He's performed with everyone I mean, he you know shit the labyrinth. I mean anyway, David Bowie's the fucking man So, you know, whatever you want to do to celebrate him And if you haven't really listened to David Bowie, you don't have to love David Bowie But I bet there's at least a song or two that you really really like So I recommend checking out David Bowie. Okay, David Bowie rant over Eric Zimmer This is now today You got a real treat and a guest cuz Eric Zimmer runs a podcast called the one you feed And he's got his buddy Chris. He helps audio engineer that and does some intro stuff He's cool too, but Erica is the main interviewer on that podcast and what the one you feed is It's based off a parable and you'll hear in the episode what the parable is but it essentially is a conversation about What kind of life do you want to be living? So I like those types of those Those topical shows based on that specific topic that being said I've also found a lot of shows that kind of purport to be about you know, leading a better life Aren't my cup of tea, you know, there may be a little heavy-handed or they're not really I don't know. I just don't vibe with them. This one, however, I will say, just having listened to it. One of the podcasts I listened to on a regular basis is great. Eric has a great way of evoking really excellent responses organically from his guests. One of my favorite episodes, if you want one to start out checking out, is with Sharon Salzburg. She's incredible, Obviously, and she has a great reaction to the parable which we discussed in this episode. I discussed it with Eric Outside of running the podcast and Eric is just a cool dude He really has like he's had not a Painless life. I don't know anyone who has and I found out very early in his podcast. I didn't know this He has dealt with addiction issues relating to heroin. He's recovered twice But to me one of the one of a grinder dude He's also very open and transparent about his you know issues He's had and I always respect someone who has the confidence to do that and seems to do that in an authentic way That that means a lot to me But we talk about the reason this episode is so good and I said you're in for a treat is we talk about practical tips and That is I'm really into that I can get really off into space about Oh, well, there's this mystical technique and there's this and, you know, we'll take this substance and transcend the elements of the universe and get some new perspective and I believe that. Don't get me wrong. Not at all admonishing that, but it can then get lost in translation. It's kind of like the Rondas thing, right?

He kept getting high, he kept saying, "Get getting really high, higher and higher." But then he always had to come down. So I think that's just the law of the universe from what I can observe. So what goes up must come down. So when you're down or when you're not as up, let's say, what are some practical tips you can use to better your life and your relationships and just make your life a little easier? I don't know exactly what we're going for. Shit's gonna happen, right? Heavy shit's gonna happen no matter what. but maybe being able to look at it where it doesn't affect you to make decisions that are harmful, I don't know, that's a good base place to start, but to alleviate suffering, right, let's start there.

Anyway, here's some practical tips just that I pulled out from a re-listen to this thing. He talks about the importance of starting small. He talks about accountability in a practice which I can tell you this, speaking of accountability. Coincidentally, a nice little synchronicity here, name of the show. My mom started this thing at the beginning of the year where we're gonna do this meditation thing where she texts, one of us texts each other, either left or right. And left means you meditated today, and right means you didn't. And are you telling me this? I really don't meditate that much, but when your mom is texting you left, I've actually meditated first thing in the morning when I woke up, but it really has been one of the things that keeps me doing it.

Eric speaks about it in the context of spiritual practices, but also just like physical things. Trying to get in better shape or be healthier, accountability aspect. And I think we got into that, how that ties into community. And then we also got into awareness and kind of mindfulness. I know it's a dirty word now, because it's kind of just been overused, but really how an awareness practice can give you a little bit of space on this concept of space. Sharon Salzburg talks about that a lot. I'm seeing Sharon tomorrow. Tara Brock has a regular class at this Unitarian church in where I live in Bethesda and Tara's at the refuge.

She's gone there and Sharon's coming in tomorrow, so I'm excited to see her tomorrow. So yeah, but this podcast is just great. It's really great. I, this is something that I would listen to if it wasn't, I always want to listen to my same voice, but if it wasn't me, it's something I would listen to. And that, to me, is the mark of a good show. So I hope you guys feel the same way. A reminder, rate and review this podcast on iTunes and other places. The reviews have been coming in and I really, really appreciate it. I really do, so thank you for that. And yeah, without further ado, here is Eric Zimmer from the One You Feed.

(upbeat music) ♪ Stone love ♪ ♪ She kneels before the grave ♪ ♪ A brainsome ♪ ♪ Who gave his life to save us ♪ ♪ Love God ♪ ♪ That harbors between the headstone ♪ ♪ And her eyes ♪ ♪ For the penetrates of leaving ♪

Seriously, thank you for coming on.

Really? - For having me, it's fun.

Yeah, yeah. I've listened to a couple of your episodes, I'm interested where you're going to go with this, just because I've had such a wide variety.

Yeah, they're eclectic. And you know, I just wanted to, like I said, you know, I didn't want to make it one particular thing. Like, that's kind of like what I, I like what you're doing with the parable, because you allow people to kind of take it and do what they want with it, 'cause it's not a loaded question, but it promotes a response, right? It provokes a response. So I'm kind of doing the same thing with mine, but I'm also just like identifying people who I think are cool, right? That's what it is. That's the only common thread between the guests at this point, they're pretty all over the map.

Okay, so I'd love if you could, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to find out more about you. I'd love if you could provide like a brief biography of what prompted your interest in philosophical and kind of quote unquote spiritual concepts, 'cause I know that's weaved into the show. And then also, further that question, what led then to you starting the podcast?

Yep, I think, you know, my original interest in philosophical or spiritual things, I think it's probably always been there to some degree. In high school, I had a high school teacher who introduced me to some of the Zen Buddhism concepts, you know, like, you know, D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts and some of that stuff. And I remember reading it and getting interested in it, but I don't remember, you know, I'm not sure I really got it at all that age, but I was intrigued by it. You know, it set the stage. I took a transcendental meditation course when I was 18.

Cool.

You know, so I'd been, I was pulled towards that stuff. I spent the next, from about 18 to 24 though, in increasingly bad spiraling drug addiction. And so I sobered up from a heroin addiction at age 25.

Oh, wow.

And I think that I was forced to get into philosophical and spiritual concepts in order to stay alive. Like, you know, I got into a 12 step program, which is very much, you know, they're very much sort of, the heart of it is a God related or a higher power thing.

Yes. And so I started to adopt that simply as a strategy to stay alive. But then I found that it interested me, and I wasn't content with the sort of normal idea of like, well, God, as maybe was presented to me in most, you know, in a Christian culture. So I then went back to a lot of the things that had sort of interested me in high school and started to really explore primarily Buddhist concepts a lot. But I just was interested in spiritualized, so I think it was a combination of sort of a natural inclination, maybe being exposed to certain things at the right time, and then just, I think it's part of what keeps me alive as an addict, right?

I mean, it's, I think that's, we could talk about what spiritual is, but I think some sort of spiritual connection is what allows me to stay sober. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a good reason to do it. I'd like to actually delve into that a little bit. So what has helped you tangibly and practically in terms of staying sober? Is it a perspective shift? Is it a tools or something you got out of it? Like I'd like you to speak about this 'cause I've spoken about mental health a little bit on this podcast and I've had personal issues with mental health and I put addiction into the same category is that it's a very real gripping one that is more tangible in some ways, but yeah, how has that helped you specifically?

Well, I mean, I got sober twice. Once when I was 25 and then I had about eight years of sobriety and then I went back out and drank again for a few years and have been back for coming up on nine years.

Oh, congratulations, that's cool.

It's 12-step programs are what have gotten me sober. And the first time around treatment centers and 12-step programs. So that was the, that was sort of the means. What I think is interesting is what underlies that? What allowed that to work in my case? And, you know, I don't go to a ton of 12-step means anymore. I still go, but I don't go a lot. So what is it, you know, what is it within that? And I think that, you know, I think the 12-step program traditionally would say you got sober because God came and made you sober. That's not something I really believe. Right. I just, I think ultimately it was, it was the idea of, you know, there, you know, people would say there, but, you know, by the grace of God go I, right? When I look at somebody who was drinking again, and I just was like, well, why would I be being given that gift? And these people next to me not be given that gift.

It wasn't an answer that, that I could live with. And I think the answer is a lot more confusing, and I don't think anybody really knows the answer. Like, yeah, some of us get sober and and why some of us don't. But I think there are some real common things that people who get sober do. I think one is 12-step programs give you a community. To be honest, they give you a group of people in which to help you support you in getting sober. They give you something else to do. They give you a social framework. And I think that's why people talk about cigarette addiction being so hard, and I think it is.

and I'm not, but I'm not sure it is much to do with nicotine as it has to do with the fact that we almost all do it on our own by ourselves.

And that's a really good point.

No, I think that, so for me, the higher power that we talk about in 12-step meetings is really the group. It's the people, it's the recognition that I'm not gonna do this by myself. I think the second part of 12-step programs that were really important was this emphasis on a spiritual connection. And so we can interpret that lots of different ways. And thank God the original founders of AA found it to put in the words God as we understand him to allow that thing to kind of open it.

Yeah, so it's not as rigid and doctrineized, yes.

It's still very, we say the Lord's prayer at most meetings, it still has too much of a Christian feel for me, I think in today's world, we should do less of that and be more open and inclusive because it's an easy way for addicts to go, well, I'm not into that God thing anymore.

Yeah, and which I think is probably something people might be believing at that point being an addict.

Yeah, it's hard to know is that they're denial 'cause they don't want to or a legitimate concern. I just, I'd prefer not to see it there.

Sure.

But I think that what AA is pointing at, that again, in a different way is a spiritual connection. And I think, you know, spirituality, I ask people on the show all the time, like what does spirituality mean to you? It's such a namby-pamby word.

Sure, absolutely.

It means a lot or nothing. That's why I say quote on quote, it's yeah, but you know, for me, spirituality is really about going inside and finding something to connect to that matters. And so that's what I think I think that finding something to connect to that matters is is a big part of recovery. Finding something besides ourselves to obsess about, you know, because I think if you want if you want to draw a common line between mental health and addiction, one of them is there is a pervasive thread of constant self consciousness, self-awareness, self-reoccupation, self-obsession, not in the healthy reflective sense, but in the all I can think about is me. Like a triphial. What's happening in my mind? What's happening in my body? What do people think of me? What does the world think of me. It's all me. And so, AA, you know, in the book somewhere, it says, you know, selfishness, self-centeredness was the root of our problem. And there's a little bit of a judgment in that, which I think can be, can turn people off a little bit. But I think at the heart of it, it's pointing to a very big truth, which is, is all I think about myself, I get sick, you know, personally. I mean, I will get sicker and sicker if all I think about is me.

I can completely relate to that and I think it's just one of those things that an antidote to that is when you're not just thinking about yourself or your limited self-perspective, excuse me, you create space and space allows you to actually function and breathe metaphorically and actually to figure out what's going on, take a step back, get some, my big thing, one of the themes that has emerged on this show is perspective. I think the more perspectives people can cultivate about any one seemingly, maybe one-way situation, the better off you're going to be in terms of making a decision, a wise decision.

I agree 100%. I think perspective is so big, and there's lots of different ways to play with perspective. You can play with perspective like, "I'm one part of a million people," that's a perspective. can play with perspective in time, you know, this is one minute versus one hour versus, you know, and that's, you know, that's the game addicts play is, you know, a party recovery one day at a time, right? One minute of time is to recognize like, you know, is to change the perspective on what we're looking at. But I couldn't agree with you more that it's that myopic, you know, when I just look at something so myopically, yeah, I just, I get sick in an AA, we talk a lot about, you know, let go and let God. And I struggled with that for a while, because I don't believe in an interventionist being out there that is going to come in and clean up things, right, like, is going to make sure that I get the job I want, or I get the parking stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's not my conception either. Yeah. Yeah. So in that case, if you're saying let go and let God, what are you letting go of, and what I realized at a certain point was it didn't matter. Just the letting go. That's the need. That's right. It was what was important. could just, I got the tighter I cling to myself, my ideas about what I want, what I need, how I feel. I just get sicker.

Yeah, and I mean, when you say sicker, I interpret it as not only as psychologically and spiritually getting sicker, but I've noticed if I get really caught up in me situations, things that are going on, I physically get sick, like my immune system starts to go down and I get sick, and I'm like, why am I getting so sick? I get angry about being sick and it's like I know the self-perpetuating kind of like cycle that can can get this I Luckily, unfortunately in my life I I've only battled depression at one point in my life and it was after I was diagnosed as bipolar I had a three four months of very intense manic Phase where it was I was I don't know. It's what clinically we would call manic, but spiritually I think what happened is as I popped open some type of chakra somewhere I legitimately believe this and I was just plugged into a different form of consciousness All I could go around and talk about to people with no regard for their interpretation of what I was saying was unconditional love Oh, it's all unconditional love. It's all the source of love and quite frankly While I believe what I was saying is true to this day My approach was turning so many people off and it was just like what you see now Kind of on the web and the self-help and spiritual things like oh you got a love you got a love and yes That's a component of it. That's the heart aspect of it But there also needs to be this wisdom component to it So I just remember going back to the depression thing. I Will never forget what that feeling was like and it was only for two three months, but it was truthfully one of the most difficult places to be in it just felt like the world was so bleak and dark and And what actually was happening is exactly what you're describing.

All I could think about was myself. It's all I could think of how bad it was for me, how bad the world was, how nothing was working out for me. And it luckily, again, it was so different from the way I normally perceive the world that I was able to be like, okay, well, this is something fucked up. And then it goes into what you're saying to the concept of community or Sangha in Buddhism or Satsang. That's ultimately what got me out of that situation. I am not considered classically bipolar anymore, I don't take meds anymore, I pulled myself out of the situation, but I couldn't have done it alone. Like I know that for a fact without my family, without my friends, without people helping me truthfully, like that would have been almost insurmountable odds. So I think touching on that concept, I mean, I think that's something that's emerged from here over the past few years, is some type of community is just such an important tool for for helping in your life because otherwise you don't have that reflection back at you is this helping is it not it's just here again you can fall into the trap of making spiritual concepts about you right Cho Yung Trungpa is saying spiritual materialism so I love that you keyed in on that um so I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about your podcast um which I love uh really really great um it's called the one you feed and it's about a parable uh I'd like you to say the parables and then talk about the genesis of the podcast. How did it come about?

Sure. So the parable, you know, I don't know if it has a strict name. I call it the parable of the two wolves. Sure. You know, I've heard it told his dogs. It can be, you know, whatever. It's often attributed to the Cherokee Indians, which I don't think is true. I don't think anybody really knows where it comes from. Sure. Somebody attributed to Billy Graham. So who knows? But it just doesn't appear to be a good. So I've just, I've left off attribution entirely. Yeah. Doesn't make it any less profound, though. So in the parable, there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness, and bravery, and love.

And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed, and hatred, and fear. And the grandson stops, and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather, and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says the one you feed. So that's the parable. That parable I first learned early in recovery from the first time. And I think as a recovering addict, that parable was incredibly profound because that's the whole game in particularly in early recovery is where do you, you know, which of those two wolves are you going to feed? Yeah. You know, are you going to put time, energy, and effort into your recovery? Or are you going to put time, energy, and effort into pretty much anything besides your recovery is kind of feeding the bad wolf at that point.

So I heard the phrase a long time ago, and I first heard the phrase when I was 26 years old and I'm far older than that. So you know it'd been around a long time. The podcast came about in sort of a strange way I had formed a solar energy company and after about four years of that four and a half years of it, the solar energy world in Ohio was changing dramatically. A lot of the legislation that was in place that made me think that starting a solar energy company was a good idea was getting rolled back. Ohio was becoming legislatively increasingly more conservative and public policy has a lot to do with whether solar energy works or doesn't work. Just a little. Yeah. So I started thinking, well, maybe I'll transition and I'll build an online course about how to develop solar projects. And so that got me interested in online marketing, you know, a little bit. And so I started thinking like, well, okay, you build a course, how do people find it? And so I started just sort of learning that and that led me to podcasts. And I started listening to podcasts just because I was like, Oh, this is fun and interesting.

And I eventually decided I didn't want to do the solar energy course. I just had kind of that had that that solar energy in me had run its course at that point. And one day I got the idea to do an interview podcast where I asked people about that parable. Yeah. I talked to my best friend, Chris, who does our audio engineering. Yeah. The next day, and he said he wanted to do it. And we just kind of started from there. So that's kind of how it happened. I don't really know where the idea came from. I can't remember was I like trying to think up a podcast idea. I don't really know. Yeah. Remember going, Oh, I want to do that. Like all great ideas, though, sometimes they can get a little bit murky and how they really came about.

But I mean, it sounds like cross pollination, right? You were thinking that you wanted to do a podcast, you were also listening to other people doing them, you knew that parable, you knew how transformative it was in some way for you and your process. I mean, I really find it to be one of the best premises for a podcast, I bring it up specifically, there's one, so you asked this question, which wolf do you want to feed? And I think it was with Sharon Salzberg. And she goes, you know, I look at the question in a weird way, which is I want to be compassionate to the bad wolf and you know nurture those not nurture the qualities to have them You know proliferate, but to just be a little tender with them instead of the first of them And I was like wow, that's she's obviously brilliant, but I just love so my next question is how do you go about?

And I did listen to the for people who haven't heard the podcast the hundredth episode I believe is an interview with you and Chris right it's yeah, and it's great and that's how I got a lot of information on you But how do you go about like figuring out because I know it's very important to you and you do research and when you're interviewing people You take some time to devote which I love like that's to me. That's why I do this podcast too I'm interested. I find someone cool. I want to learn more about them and have a platform So how what what typically is the process for peaking your interest in bringing someone on the show?

You know, I luckily am just one of those people that is always looking around yeah It's like I'm just like if I see your room right now, and you've got those bookshelves over your shoulders I walked into your room right now. I would be finding a way to get over there to see Shelf yeah, that's just the way I am sure you know I like I started a solar energy company because I was browsing around the library like I always do And saw a book on clean energy and thought well that looks interesting and read that book So that's kind of my the way my brain works So it's a perfectly thinking of what guests I want to have on the show is is a lot of the fun I just come across them. Yeah, you know The internet is a great place. It's got you know a hyperlink to this and a retweet to that Yeah, and I just follow and go oh, that's interesting or I walk into a bookstore and I see books on the shelf And I write down the person's name, right?

Some I knew right I mean there are people right away when I started like I was like I want to have X Y and Z And X Y, you know, I'm like sure a lot of people I knew I wanted to have on Early in the game, you know Sharon Salzberg for example like, you know, she was you know she would have made the early list.

Right, right.

Right, people who were known teachers. But like you, I like the parable because it gives me a chance to go after really all different kinds of people, but then bring the conversation into at least, it gives me a very loose framework too, so that the show's not a random, whatever happens. There's a little bit of a theme to it, but it gives me a lot of latitude So I can go after spiritual teachers. I go after musicians, I go after authors, I go after psychologists, you know, I go after athletes. It's just, you know, it gives me a pretty wide frame. So, you know, my list of people to have on the show is always, you know, there's always 50 or 60 people.

Like I'm, you know, always. Yeah, that is not the hard part of people. And these days we've gotten, I mean, we're not, you know, We're not like a huge podcast, but we're really, you know, we've got something. No, you're popular. I mean, it's, it's, and it's not a mystery why it's, it's like, it's good. It's a really good podcast. And I, I love what you're saying about the latitude. Cause I, I have, you know, this is going to be the 11th or 12th episode. I've also tried to weigh against how to frame a podcast because I like the chat format. I like the interview format, but I also like some semblance of structure, but also the freedom to kind of explore things as they come up and yeah I just I love the approach it really is it's really working yeah and I mean our subtitle is conversations about creating a life worth living yes I almost frame every what I'm looking at a guest I almost frame it more through that lens than the parable lens just the parable I can ask I'm like do I think this person has something do I think they have something to contribute that I could learn about or the listeners could learn about living a life worth living, whatever that means to you. Do I think they have something to contribute to a conversation about living a better life? And so that gives me lots of room to roam, but also keeps me within, you know, well, and I like the service aspect of that too, because that's one of my main reasons for doing this too, is I like to, you know, I like to connect to people with things that I think can help.

I know you can't help everyone, but at least you can make information available or at least normalize it or at least provide a spectrum of things that people could potentially be interested in. And listen, there's a lot of podcasts out there that purport to be self-help, you know, for this, for that, the other thing. But I think people's intentions behind those are different at various times. Some people may doing it for a marketing thing or for something else. But one thing I've noticed with your podcast, Chris too, is that it is, there's the spirit of helping and really trying to get that out.

And you evoke it in your guests too, which is another kind of really special thing that I think you've gotten increasingly good at as time has gone on too. It's pretty, it's impressive. So I'm not just going to build up your ego here though. So can you talk about, what are the difficulties or challenges you've come up against or noticed with running a podcast and they don't have to be major, they don't have to be big things, but little things here and there, I'm sure there must be some.

Yeah, I mean, one, it's sort of trifling, but like you and I are talking right now, and we both have a microphone, and it sounds great, right?

Oh, okay, I know where you're going, yeah.

You know, we try so hard. I mean, I brought Chris on specifically, he's an audio engineer, we've tried for what would be, you know, broadcast quality sounds from the minute we went live. It's been a big focus of ours. And so we do everything we can on our end, but every once in a while, we get a guess. We've done El Ruiz on, you know, a couple of months ago, you'd think after being, you know, selling whatever 10 million copies of a book, we wouldn't be talking on some like 1943 cell phone, you know, it's just what he was almost unintelligible. No, I, and that's frustrating to me as a, as a podcast host hoping to deliver something to people that is great is that I only have so much control. Yeah. And for better or worse, like, I think there's a lot of podcasts today where it's internet entrepreneurs or media preneurs or whatever you want to call interviewing each other. Great. It's easy to get good sound. I tend to be going after people that just don't spend, you know, I like a lot of older, wiser people who are not on Skype, they don't have a microphone. And so that's one of those things that if I could just, you know, snap my fingers and make go away, I would love everyone to sound good.

Yeah, that's easier as a listener, right? It's, if I'm listening to a show and if the sound is so bad that it's distracting, I'll usually turn it off.

I know, see, you notice what I notice, which is I am not gonna listen to it or it's affecting my experience with it. I automatically, this isn't always true. This reminds me, there's something I learned very early on. I grew up playing saxophone and we would have, I was in jazz band and we would be playing on the stage, you know for our concert or something and you know I'd be worrying about Messing up in my solo or something. I didn't want to like hit the wrong note or something And then I remember getting up there once and it was okay But I definitely messed up a few times and I realized 99% of people didn't actually know that there was a problem, but I am still just like you I don't care about that I want the 1% who do notice to actually have a pleasant experience because it's it's how I approach it. So I totally get that I've learned to let go of it to a certain. Yeah. Yeah, you have we just we you know Chris is pretty good at EQing it and doing what he can to make it sound the best I let go of it and I think for the most part if it's if it's not great But it's okay in a minute or two. You forget about it. Right. It's it's into the background But there are some times so that would be the one I think the second thing about a podcast you mentioned like I prepare for my guests a lot is I do so my life is a never-ending cycle of books to be read things to be done which all in all is what I think I love to do right so I love doing it it's just that sometimes it becomes overwhelming I have a tendency to do these things where I will book a ton of interviews in a short period of time I don't know why what's a time what's time because I think I'm falling into this by doing like I sometimes have I've had, you know, for a week. Yeah, this is this just brutal. Because like I said, I mean, if I'm going to have somebody on the show, and they've got a book, I want to have read the book. I mean, it is best I can. Absolutely. Now, some people you're not, you know, Sharon Salzberg has got 15 books. I'm not going to read them all. Right. And and I've gotten better that we had Andrew Solomon on very early, he wrote the noon day demon and Atlas of depression. He wrote another book called Far From the Tree about children who have conditions different than the parents' deaf children, autistic parents, you know, how how identity is formed in those. And the guy, I mean, each of those books is like 600 pages.

And I was, I'm going to read them and I read all of them, which was postrous. Yeah. I can't keep that up. But, you know, I do, I tend to be like, all right, that one's done. And then I immediately turn and go, okay, what is it now? Yeah. So I don't do as much pleasure reading as I used to. Yes, yes, but it's all I mean, that's that was part of the the design of the show I was like, you know if I do this show I'm gonna have to keep these topics front of mind because I'm gonna be reading about them And that will I mean, I you know part of my motivation was to keep myself my head my head in a good place I get that so but that's the other one probably is just the sheer Volume and and I wrestle with that sometimes because I think that this you know a path of a spiritual path or a self-improvement path or whatever you want to call it is knowledge is certainly part of it. But action is a bigger part of it. And so how what does it mean when I just keep throwing a different person at listeners every week? Yes. So I really work to try and in the interviews and what I'm doing is to think about concepts that recurve and to try and tie those together. You know, I say it on the show all the time. You know, We talk on the show a lot about X because I'm trying to tie what we're hearing this week with what we've talked about five, 10, 15 times so that these truths or these ideas sort of keep coming back to people.

And maybe you can hear them differently. Yes. Analogy, a different voice, but I just don't want it to be like constant, you know, like I want to frame up the key themes that matter. And so that's that's something I sort of wrestle with a little bit and I'm trying to figure out how to do better Well, I think I mean truthfully from my perspective you're doing a pretty good job of it It's not something that's also easily done to create a framework or kind of cohesion for for these types of interviews Because again, there are many different perspectives some similar themes some somewhat different But I think you're doing a pretty good job of that. So my next question for you is this You have a day job I assume What is your day job and how do you manage kind of doing what you because I Truthfully I say this I wouldn't ask this to everyone who does a podcast some people do a podcast takes them an hour a week No big deal. Yeah, but I can actually see and hear now that you really put time and effort into this and it is a job I mean I know that so it only is so I have a day job. I do consulting for I do e-commerce consulting for different large fortune 500 clients. I have one client right now. It's a retail client. The job is, you know, the good news is that I like the work. It's challenging. You know, my brain has to be very active. The people are great. And I have a good deal of flexibility in it. So those are all positive things. So if I had my way, I would be doing the, you know, the podcast and the related coaching and all that stuff full time but that's not where I'm at I'm heading that direction yes so right now it's just a lot of work you know it's just like I mean the people are like well how do you do it all and I'm like well I just don't do a lot else yeah I'm aware of this you know like I'm a musician and you know one of the things I love about the show is that Chris and I write there's two music breaks in every show we write the music breaks for every show so I I love that, but I would love to be playing in a band, but that's not gonna happen right now with the time constraints I have.

Like that's something I have to say I'm not going to do. I would love to watch more quality TV, right? Like there's lots of great series, there's lots of great movies and documentaries. I don't do much of that. Like, you know, occasionally I do, but by and large, like I don't watch TV. That's a decision. You know, I think-

Of course. do, you know, I think that's one of the, you know, one of the myths of modern culture that I think we all struggle with is the idea that we can do everything. Yeah, no, I just don't think, I don't think you, I don't think we can. And so I think being conscious of the decisions about what, you know, what's important to me, what do I want to spend my time on is one that I think I've gotten pretty good at. You know, I built with the solar company while I was doing another job. So I kind of have this, like, I think one thing I've learned to do is use time very well, very efficiently. I don't, I try not to spend a lot of time monkeying around, you know, monkeying around.

I do, everybody does, right?

Of course.

Facebook or Twitter can be a drain, can be a, but I'm pretty good, I'm pretty disciplined about how I spend my time, which is the only way I could do it.

Yeah.

'Cause yeah, it's, I mean, I don't know if I spent 40 hours a week on the podcast, but I spent a lot.

Oh, I get it, man. It's funny.

It's booking guests, it's preparing, it's marketing, it's releasing the show, it's editing, it's a lot of time.

Yeah, I know it's funny, I'm noticing a lot of parallels in how we've chosen to structure our respective lives. So I went to a music college, Berkeley College of Music, I graduated, I make music in my spare time. I actually put in the bumpers in my podcast things that I've made in the past. So I get that exactly what you guys get at the creative outlet. A little more than just speaking, you get to actually put the music out there. It's amazing. I also am a consultant. I work with primarily spiritual and, you know, those types of clients in that sector. But it's the same type of thing where I have the latitude and kind of flexibility to work the way I want to structure it. And I've noticed the exact same things as you have. I am always asking myself the question of striking the proper balance between what I'm promoting, what I'm doing with the podcast, what I'm doing workwise, and then trying to manage my life, right? Like the other things that are going on. My wife, I got a kid on the way, all these other things. And it just, it seems to me where we are at this time and place, we have so much more opportunity and flexibility to kind of craft these lifestyles based on whatever the skill set we develop.

And I long ago realized that I think the most successful people in now and in the coming years are going to be this brand of kind of creative professionals for a lack of a better way of people who can function in the digital world, but also can translate those skills into real life and for other businesses and organizations and for themselves. Because I can tell you this, if there's one thing I learned about the digital world and just kind of the entertainment world from being in music school is, there is not a lot of guarantees in that space. You are, I saw so many talented people, so many talented people who didn't either have the luck or the drive or the right connections who just did not make it.

So it requires kind of this constant effort. So it relates to what you're saying because you've set up these kind of machines systems in your life that feed your good wolf, right? That's what they do. Um, and it's, it's brilliant because they've, you self, you've created these things. I've done a lot of the same things, but then I, I always look at the systems and I'm like, is this the right system? It should be tweaked here and there. Should I find more space to do this? Uh, so yeah, I just, I, I relate to a lot of what you're saying, um, and kind of your experiences in, in more ways than one.

And I find it, yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I mean, that, that idea of doing something means you can't do something else. You know, choosing this means I can't choose all these other things, still, I don't love it, right? It's a, it's a little, it's one of those like, but I think as I've gotten older, I've accepted it better. I think I've got, I think what I've learned to do is, is I really know it's true. And so if I was trying to do a, like, do a podcast and be in a band and work on my novel and I wouldn't get any of those things done, you know, well at all. And so I've learned a little bit, 'cause I think I used to do that.

I used to try and do 15 things. And now, I mean, most people I know would say you do too much, but I'm relatively focused, like, yeah, the show, you know, and I think if you, like you said, I think if we think about it a little bit and we choose well, we can get a lot of what we need out. Like, I found a way to indulge my curiosity, my desire to talk to people, my desire to make music. I mean, I've managed to find a way to shoot horn at all.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

It's a show. And so, it feels to me like I kill a lot of birds with one stone, so to speak, by doing that. But those can be challenging things to do.

You touched on something that--

Can you hang on one second?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, you getting up, I noticed something. have to bring up. You're in Ohio, right? I am. You're a Steelers fan. There's because your seat has a Steelers thing. Yeah. Is that does? If someone in the family is from Pittsburgh. So they make you sit on the Steelers fan. Actually, you know, I don't pay much attention, you know, paying attention to sports. That's not a thing you can't. Yeah. But I do if I was gonna root for an NFL team, I'd probably root for the Steelers. Smart. Although the Browns, I suppose you could root for just out of pity. Pity. Oh,

Oh yes, oh yes.

But growing up as a kid, I like the Steelers. So like I said, I got back into sports for a few years when my son was younger and he was really into him. It was something we did together, but as he's grown a little bit older, he doesn't much care, so.

Yeah, I unfortunately have been a lifelong dolphins fan and sports place, sports is what I consider one of my fundamental spiritual practices. Because I have slowly, slowly, very slowly over the years, gotten less reactive to the dolphins being a terrible football team, but not really that much. So it actually moves into what I wanted to bring up when you were talking about setting up these systems. You started with basically the concept of awareness. You have to have some level of awareness of what you would like to do and how to do it as the starting point, which kind of feeds into, I've noticed one of the themes of the the one you feed is awareness.

And it's this kind of the Buddhist concept of wisdom. I would like, could you talk a little bit about awareness and how you kind of work that in or how that comes out? And then follow up to that is any other emergent themes you've noticed come out of the one you feed.

Yeah, I mean, I think awareness for me is such a big one because it's really hard to do anything else without it. It's really hard to, you know, it's hard to make changes in your life if you're not aware of what you're doing. And I think that is probably the, I don't even know if I would call it a modern thing. I don't really know. I just know that my default is to go on autopilot, right? Is that there are enough things in life to drag me along minute by minute, day by day by day to keep me completely busy all the time. And not even think about any of it, really. Except in vague passing moments.

So awareness for me is to try and shift out of that, autopilot and be more conscious about what am I, you know, how am I spending my time? What am I doing with my time? How am I acting towards the people around me? How am I, you know, how do I, how do I, you know, what do I spend money on? What do I eat? Why? All those things take awareness to change. And so yeah, I think awareness is such a huge piece of being able to live a good life or to feed your good wolf because it seems like it's the easiest thing in the world to not be aware. At least it is for me. It's very easy to not be aware and and I think that then leads into the idea that a lot of times you know not making a choice is making a choice. Yeah. So that's that's that's why awareness for me is so important. My own life is to just come off autopilot and make sure that I'm and consciously choosing the things in life that matter to me.

Yeah, I mean, the world will choose for us pretty easily.

Well, that's what I was gonna say. You know, you say that you go on autopilot. I think a lot of people probably feel like they have that tendency because that's what a lot of us are doing. But if you look around, I mean, it's not solely on us. The world is kind of set up to distract at all points, everything. I mean, the advertising industry alone is primarily built upon that concept. So, yeah, I mean, I get it, I definitely get it. Culturally, the deck is stacked, living an aware conscious life, right? It really is. It takes, you know, in the, we read a little thing before every show that I wrote at the beginning of the show and everyone's like, "Should I change it?"

But I still think a lot of it. And there's a line that says, it takes constant, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. And so that's the thing is that I think it does. and yet culturally lord it's you can you can lose weeks I mean yeah tell me no time flat you know turn on a turn on a series you know and not even bad TV right no yeah turn on a good TV series like the sopranos yeah yeah amazing two weeks gone right I've been there I've done it and it's designed to do that I think that's the thing people I mean I I work with clients on coaching and be like well Well, it's just really hard for me at the end of one episode not to watch the next.

Yes. Of course it is. Literally made to do that. Yes. For that reason, you know, you are, that has been engineered to cause you to not get up and do something else. And so, you know, you talked about space earlier, the ability to put a little space in there, if you can put a little space between this Netflix episode and the next one, just a little bit, you can often resist the next one. It's like food. that with food. I am of a tendency to really enjoy eating and I will just go into autopilot and be think I've noticed this so many times it actually truthfully hasn't prevented me from overeating that often but I'll notice as I'm like let's say I'm eating a chip before I even finish biting that chip I'm thinking about the next chip that is going in and that's the beginning that's a teeny little bit of awareness but when you can make that gap a little bit bigger and meditation obviously it helps with this so much. But when you can make it a little bit bigger, you actually have choice there. You can actually make that decision rather than making the choice of non-choice. And I do think, one of my favorite books of all time is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. There's so much wisdom in that book, but that was the first place that I originally Victor Frankel said. There's a place between stimulus and response, and in that space lies all our human freedoms. Yes. And that's why I meditate. You know, I am not one of those people that meditates. And I think it like is blissful. It makes you great or like it really it's for me, it is like it's like going to the gym a lot. Yeah. You know, I wish it when I hear people describe the meditation, I'm like, I wish that was what meditation was like for me and maybe someday.

But what I think I get, which is a tangible thing, is that space between stimulus and in response grows a little bit. This is not like, you know, people talk about meditation and mindfulness, like it's magic.

Like a panacea. It's so not.

It's not by any way, shape or form. What it does, I think, is gives me a chance to become more aware and then make what's often very difficult decisions to do something different. But at least I'm getting a chance.

Yeah, no, that's what I get out of it.

That spot on, I mean, that's what it's been for me. I also, outside of maybe one or two experiences, I've had while meditating that I would describe as blissful. Nope, that's primarily been the domain of psychedelics for me. Meditation has been the other real, it's tough. And I also view it like going to the gym. One of the things that I'm working on coming in 2016 is I'm really trying to figure out a new twist. It's not a new idea, but a way to actually start people to meditate. However, it needs to be for them because I personally, I work with spiritual clients, all of these people, every single day I'm working on, offering some working on all this stuff, conversions, everything.

And I still, I still have trouble meditating on a regular basis. I do it, I do it, but I still have trouble with it. So I'm trying to figure out some inroads that can A kind of make it 'cause like, just like going to the gym. When I really start going to the gym, I'm into it and I'm like, oh my God, how is I ever not going to the gym? I feel great, this is amazing. So getting up to that point where people view meditation or can experience the benefits on a lasting basis, but also framing it, exactly like you're saying, like if we frame mindfulness and meditation as a cure-all, it's doomed to fail.

That's not how it works, it's not how anything works. If something worked like that, we'd all already been doing it at this point. That's right. And I think I had a breakthrough in finally becoming a regular meditator when I finally stopped expecting anything. As long as I was expecting I should feel a certain way, I didn't think it worked for me. I kept saying I'm not the kind of person who'd meditate. So I'd meditate for a few months. Nothing dramatic would happen and I'd stop. And then I, of course, become convinced of the benefits of meditation again, and I'd do it and I'd stop. And you know, for me, it was, I think meditation is like creating any other good habit, which is I think prime, I mean, that's primarily the coaching work that I do with is primarily around basic behavior change.

And there are some pretty fundamental principles that you can apply to these sort of things to build a good habit. I mean, you know, starting small, you know, building consistency, building some form of accountability into it. That's such a big one. know that's that's what I think that is the one that I keep spinning in my head around is how can we offer how can we create programs for people virtually that create real accountability yes because the coaching work that I do with people you know eight out of ten people will make dramatic habit change yes almost immediately and the honest truth is all I'm really doing is I'm giving them somebody to be accountable to yes I mean it is a human being that they care about or you know that they have some relationship with some relationship with a human being whom they don't want to disappoint or they want to make feel proud of them or they want to connect with that's it it it it it works I mean not that I'm not providing some good course of course geez but I honestly think nine times out of ten that's it I mean I used to do this thing every new year I would gather a group of friends together and we would do something called the body fat challenge, and we would go get our body fat measured in one of those fancy body pods. And we would just, it would be not who can lose the most weight, who can lose the most percentage of body fat in 90 days. And what was amazing to me was that nearly everybody in that program lost dramatic amounts of weight. Despite the entire year before, I mean, I usually ask people who I knew had been trying to exercise or had been failing. Yeah. And 90% of us did great. And why? What was different? The only thing that was different is that we were we had this thing amongst ourselves. Now it was a competition, but it was a friendly competition. Sure. But it was a joking competition, but it brought that human element of accountability into it. And suddenly people were able to do something that all year before they had been unable to do. And when the body fat challenge ended, you know, 70% of the people went back to the way they were before. And so how you build that into a virtual community is what I keep thinking about because we try with things like coach.me or headspace where you check in and somebody virtually says hey congratulations on your check in but I don't know who Vlad who just gave me props for checking in. Right right I know. Well how do you how can you build that sort of accountability in and so I'm working on some courses for next year and that's a big piece of what I'm wrestling with.

How do you do that?

Well, I mean, my thoughts on it are it goes back to the first thing that you mentioned here, one of the first things is the community aspect of it, because I think what everyone is looking for, and I think why accountability ultimately works, is people are looking for that human connection, and it's not just the human connection, like, oh, I'm connecting with someone, but they want to be loved, and they want to love. That's ultimately what people want, and having a coach and having someone help you is an expression of love. That's how I view my work with my clients. I view it as, I'm helping you.

I'm not doing it to take your money and that's what the, like some people, and unfortunately a lot of people approach business like that and that's kind of how the system set up. But when you approach it from that different place, yeah, well, I definitely want to talk to you some more about what you're going on with your courses 'cause I think we have some similar views on this. So I want to end on this. This is flew by, by the way, as all of the front ones do. I want to end with, so you've mentioned many, many during this conversation, but what are, what is one or maybe two practical tips you can give people for what has had a positive impact?

What is fed your good wolf? What could you offer people as tips?

You know, I'll give two. One is what I just talked about a minute ago, which was, you know, behavior change. I think that being able to change in our lives almost always means changing our behavior to some degree, right? even if that means exercising instead of watching another episode of Wheel of Fortune, right? Whatever that is, or meditating, or eating better, or spending more time with our wife, or our kids, or our family, there's usually a behavior change to some degree. And so behavior change can be greatly simplified by starting really, really small. You know, I work with clients on, all right, I want you to exercise for five minutes tomorrow.

And people, your mind will go, that's stupid. I'm not gonna get in shape exercising five minutes a day. And of course, no, you're not. But five minutes is still better than no minutes, which is what you've been doing. And there's lots of science to support. If I start at five minutes and I get a little bit of momentum, then I can go to 10, then I can go to 15. But if the key is to do five minutes every day, start to build that consistent habit. It works in a dramatic way. So start small, start way smaller than you think. And if you can't do what you've said is small, go smaller. Leo Babuda writes a blog called Zen Habits, which is a great, very popular.

And he said, he's got a saying, make it so small, you can't say no to it. Like, you know, that's what I basically do, is it's just like, how can I possibly not do this for two minutes? Like, that would be pathetic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So start really small. And then I think the other thing is, you know, when it comes to inspiration and motivation, I think we all tend to just consume, consume, consume, you know, like I'll go out and read eight blog posts about living a better life. I won't remember anything. I'm finding it's a lot better to go back over things that I've read. We had a guest early on who said, you know, if you just changed your ratio of, you know, for every hour you spent consuming, you spent 30 minutes integrating into your life, whether Whether that be taking notes on it, reading it back over, thinking about how it might impact your life, your life would change completely.

And that's been, you know, that's certainly my experience is instead of just consuming, consuming, consuming, slow down a little bit and take some of these things you are learning and figure out how to integrate them into your life, you know, do something with them. And I think that, you know, one of the things I would say that I've learned on the show very much is that I don't hear very much on the show that I'm like, "Oh my God, I never thought of that. I never heard that before." You spend a little bit of time around spiritual and personal development circles. You've heard most of it, right? It's the, "What do you do with it?" It's the remembering. It's the, "I know it today, but for some God, for sake and reason, tomorrow I don't remember it. It's not in my brain. So put it back in your brain and put it back in your brain the next day and that's what that's what helps me yeah well it's the it's the concept of kind of resonance and then integration and that is I love it much more elegant way to say what man this is great I really had an awesome time thank you again for coming on Who gave his life to save us, love God That harbors between the headstone and her eyes For they've been betrayed for grieving You love A boy of God that's all