Comedy, Creativity + Spirituality | Well-Being in the Modern Age | 104

(upbeat music)

This is synchronicness, this is synchronicness.

This is synchronicness, this is synchronicness.

This is synchronicness, this is synchronicness.

This is synchronicness, this is synchronicness. (upbeat music)

Welcome to episode 104 of Synchronicity, and I have multiple guests this week, because this is a live recording from the event we just did in New York City at Neuya House, well-being in the modern age of MindPod Network event. Here are my guests, Kelly McLean, Michael Donovan, Jennifer Soudini, Sarah Potter, you may have heard of them. They've all been on this podcast. We talk about a lot of stuff, but not that much stuff, it's a relatively short panel. I think it was like 40, 45 minutes. We talk about creativity, comedy, and spirituality. Things I am interested, across the board, interested in, across the board.

I don't need to give the conversation away. What I do wanna talk about is how awesome this event was. It was stressful, it was hard, it was difficult. There were a lot of emotions, there was a lot of anxiety leading up to the event. It was logistically not the easiest thing to put on, but it came together in the most magical, and miraculous, and lovely, beautiful way. I couldn't have been happier with the way it turned out. My partners, Anna, Kara, Sa, our assistant Julia, just really just killed it. It was incredible. The vibe of the entire night was amazing. The panelists were engaged, authentic.

I didn't know all of the panelists before the event, and after meeting with them all and speaking with them, I just came away incredibly impressed with what we created there. There'll be other ones of these events coming up. I'm also in talks with Yoshino about doing another Mindwave event out in LA, and I also wanna make sure that we keep the ethos of these events pure, or as pure as we can, and that means guarding against spiritual materialism when you do things in the wellness industry or the mindfulness industry ego tends to creep in. Everyone has one, they tend to rear their ugly heads or their heads, they don't have to be ugly when this type of stuff, when this type of stuff, nice sentence.

Now, when this type of stuff happens, spiritual materialism, spiritual bypassing, all these things can seep in pretty quickly. I've noticed a trend, I hate to call it an industry, or people who are talking about spirituality or consciousness or psychedelics or things that are meant to better our lives. There seems to be a trend, I don't even know if it's a trend. It's just something that's there that people seem to wanna be celebrities. They wanna be famous. They wanna be known as the person who helps other people. They wanna be known as the person who has the wisdom. You come and get it. That's why I'm constantly trying to remind people that that's not how it works.

Maybe a teacher or someone who has had some experiences can remind you that this wisdom, this love, everything that you hear people talk about, that's innate, that's inside of you. Everyone has that. You don't go out somewhere else to go get it. It already resides within you. And I talk about that a little bit in this episode in the conversation we have, because I think it's incredibly important. If we start to get caught up in the cult of personality, if we think that someone else has answers that we don't have ourselves, it can get very difficult. And that is a perfect recipe for getting disillusioned or jaded because inevitably someone else has the potential to disappoint you when you find out they're a human being too.

So I bring this up because I know, I see a lot of other events that are going on. I've worked in this industry for a relatively long time, seven years now. I've seen the behind the scene stuff. I've seen some of the personalities behind some of the personas that are presented in the mindfulness industry and the wellness industry. And to me, that's why you will get this commitment from anything I'm a part of. I'm gonna keep it fucking real. I know, I just clap my hands. Like a ridiculous person as I said that. I'm gonna keep it fucking real. But I really am. I think that's why when I was putting together this panel, I put these people on it.

These are some of the realist people. They're gonna tell you where they're fucking up, what they're doing, what's not worked, what has worked. And I think that's what this is about. And I think all future events that MindPod Network does or I'm a part of, that's gonna be the hallmark of what they are because I think it's really easy to get carried away in the love and light and everything is great and we've transcended all of our egos and our personal problems, but that's not my case. So I wouldn't wanna be giving that impression and I wanna be wary of people who are. But there are people who also haven't figured out.

So don't get me totally wrong here. I just think for these types of things, it's important to speak from where we are, not from where we would like to be. So yeah, that's the event. I wanna talk about something else that's going on too. Probably most of you don't care about it, but I do find it interesting because this is an area of my life I've chose to pursue. So podcasting, I don't know if you guys know this, but we host all of our podcasts on Libsyn. At least on MindPod Network, MindPod Network, most of them are hosted on this company called Libsyn. And it recently came out that they've essentially been gaming their stats.

So downloads have looked two to three to four to five times as high as they've actually been. And I've been talking with a lot of my podcasters and kind of getting their impressions. And there's two schools of thought here. One is that, oh my God, this is the worst thing in the world. Our numbers are terrible, which is not true. And two is that, hey, I'd rather see what the accurate numbers are rather than inflated things where I don't really have an idea of what's going on. And the reason I'm bringing this up is not to get into the nitty gritty of podcast downloads and metrics and advertising and all of these other things, but it's to underscore that it's more important to have one person, 10 people, 100 people, who genuinely give a shit about what you're doing than it is 10,000, 100,000, a million who really don't care.

And to me, this is another lesson in focusing on the things for the right reasons. If I was doing a podcast because all I cared about was my download numbers, this would be a death now. This would be like, OK, it's not as popular as I thought it was. It's not as many downloads as I thought it was. I'm not going to do this anymore. But I long ago, not long ago, but about a year ago realized that the feedback I get from you guys, the reviews you leave me, meeting, I met Jeremy, a listener who I've been in contact with through creative evolution and other things. I met him in person at well-being in the modern age.

It was incredible. Those things mean infinitely more than some numbers on a screen. And I really mean that. It's taken me a fair amount of time to get to that place. But I genuinely mean that. It really does mean more. The human interaction, the feedback I get from this stuff is really what it's about. So you have a solemn promise, even if this goes down to virtually no downloads as long as you guys are digging it, I'm going to keep doing it. Speaking of digging it, music, you hear on the show. If you like it, if you haven't already become a patron on patreon.com/synchronicity, go do that. You can get all this music.

You can just support the show. I think the lowest level is $3. You could pledge $1 a month if you wanted to. Think of how little that is for you and how if a thousand of you did that, how awesome it would be for me. And I just want you to know that if I got $1,000, any money that I get from Patreon literally goes right back in the show. I know if you've been listening over the past few months, I've been going through a relatively difficult time professionally, those times seem to be coming to an end. Things are getting better. What that means for you as a listener of this show is I got a little more space now to make the show better, to get some other interviews out, to get some more interviews out.

And that might happen this week. I might release a bonus epic code. Talking is not my strong suit today, unfortunately. I might get another bonus episode out this week just 'cause I have so many coming up and so many recorded and there's some really great episodes that I think you're going to love. So consider contributing on Patreon, becoming a patron. That would be cool. I'm not going to mention it every episode. I felt like mentioning it now because of my podcast, I'm not going to do what I want. But that's it. Subscribe, leave a review. I think reviews actually, they genuinely help the show.

I know it's kind of a pain. I send out an email. I'm going to send out an email, you know, with a direct link so you can leave a review. If you can do that, great. If not, tell a friend. Tell a friend, that's my favorite thing you could do. And I don't even know that you're doing it. Just tell a friend, you know, I heard this podcast. I kind of like it. I think you might like it too. That's it. That's your mission for this week. Let's get right to this. It's a relatively short episode, like I mentioned. There's five people in this panel, including myself. We got about 40 minutes to do it. Stay tuned for a bonus episode this week if I get my shit together.

If not, maybe over the weekend or early next week. I really genuinely appreciate everyone who came out to this event, everyone who listens to this podcast, everyone who listens to any podcast on MindPod Network. I can't say specifically what we're up to, but things are coming. We're really trying to make this a sustainable permaculture type thing with MindPod Network and these podcasts and the people and the events. So, sincere gratitude to all of you who are tuning in and using your attention and your awareness to kind of focus in on this stuff. It really does mean the world to all of us here.

So, thank you and without further ado, here's our conversation from wellbeing in the modern age. (upbeat music)

I would like to invite Noah Lempert, a moderator, Michael Donovan, Jennifer Zadini, Kelly, McLean, and Sarah Potter. Give it up. (audience applauds)

Chicken, chicken, chicken. We're here, we did it.

Yeah. - We did it.

Yeah.

So, this is not up on the screen, but we, this panel is comedy, creativity, and spirituality, I think we settled on. So, I think, there's a lot of ways we could start this one. I think the most important thing that I'd like to communicate just at the beginning, Michael, Michael is not fucking around.

We're trying to figure out what we're supposed to sit.

Yeah, you can sit there, it's okay. Basically, when we talk a lot about spiritual practices or any of the things we've been hearing about trauma, the importance of community or interconnectedness, there can be a tendency to get relatively somber and serious about this stuff, and that can be a pretty significant pitfall. Because if we take things very seriously, they can get rigid, they can get calcified, and they can become not organic and lifelike, which really is what we want to serve us. So, one of the ways we kind of subvert that tendency is by using comedy, by not taking things so seriously, by poking fun at stuff that maybe isn't objectively hilarious, but still is pretty funny.

So, I thought a good place, oh no, first of all, let me introduce you guys.

Oh, I thought you forgot our bios, and this is like a really smooth-- (all laughing)

I'm not obsessed with that.

No, Noah just talks about himself a lot.

That's mostly what I do, so--

He's doing doing that. He's just gonna mansplain and talk over us all.

So, let me introduce these lovely people. I'll start in the end. Sarah Potter, founder of SP Projects, an art advisory and consultant. Did I say it right?

Absolutely.

Beautiful. Also known as the good witch of the art world, which we will hear all about. She is excellent, I'm super happy you're here with us, Sarah.

Thank you, I'm psyched to be here.

Then we got Jennifer Soudini, one of my favorite people who I just met in the past year, she's really, she does a lot of stuff. She founded Evolve and has send a wonderful consciousness focused online entity, Facebook pages, website, but more importantly, one of the best connectors of people I've ever met, like she's tuned me into so many amazing people, including Sarah, that just, she's awesome. Thank you, Jen.

Thanks Noah.

Then we have Michael Donovan, who besides being a pain in my ass most of the time, is an amazing fashion photographer. Also, one of the most authentic, I know that word has been used a lot, authentic walkers of a spiritual path, whatever you wanted to find that is, he doesn't really bullshit, which I think is a really important thing because that can happen, he's laughing.

No, so thank you, Michael, for being here.

Thank you, Noah.

And then finally, last but not least, we have Kelly McLean, who is again, also all of these people are some of my favorite people. I'm not using this for a little.

But pick one now.

I'm gonna pick one, it's Michael.

I know it.

So Kelly is a stand-up comedian, a writer, an actress, and also who's a wonderful podcast called The Dow of Comedy, it's amazing. And one of the key principles there is this theory that comedians are secret sages, that they deal with things that all of us deal with, but they go in deep to communicate fundamental truths that resonate with us in a way that makes us laugh, which again is important. So I thought this is where I was going at the beginning. I thought it would be a great place to start, that you could maybe talk a little bit about what comedy has done for you, also a very traumatic moment in your life regarding your brother and how these things abuse together and how comedy has been kind of a part of your spiritual path too.

Yeah, so I actually grew up in Boulder, Colorado, which is, you could say like the wellness, mindfulness, yoga, Whole Foods capital of America, you go into a nice restaurant and people are wearing their like bike shoes and their yoga pants, camel toe situations. So I grew up taught that we should be meditating, we should pay attention to spirituality and this sort of thing. And I resonated with that and at the same time I would just spend my time laughing at these people because they would take it so damn seriously and I would even be a little stifled if I giggled in the shrine room when someone farted or something.

And so I was very aware as a child and especially a teenager that like, there's something a little bit missing here from this whole movement. And it's the ability for ourselves to look in the mirror and along with the meditation and self reflection to be able to just go, ha, ha. And I take it a little bit more light and I think that fun goes along with that. So that was a little bit the ground. And then as I went into comedy, I started to have a bifurcated world of this is my spiritual world, this is my comedy world. And they didn't quite know each other. And as I then had a more as I went through a divorce and I went through the traumatic sudden loss of my brother in a car accident, I really needed to do some soul searching.

And I kind of turned to the comedy and it wasn't all there and I kind of turned to the spiritual and it wasn't all there. And that's when I had this aha moment that there's some sort of magic when we bring these two things together. And I think we see this with like, you know, Trevor Noah, John Stewart on The Daily Show, not only is this some people's where they're getting their news, but this is where some people are getting a little bit of spiritual wisdom of like, how do we deal with the really fucked up things that are happening in our world? And a very good answer is often, you know, with a light touch with a sense of humor and with, you know, having a good time while we're doing it.

Because if we're all going about our time being very serious and speaking very softly always, I think we have to stop and wonder if we're really doing it right. 'Cause who's always smiling and laughing? The Buddhist monks, you know, the great teachers of any tradition.

And there's this misperception that I think sometimes if you're laughing at things that there's not depth to it, right? That there's not this deepness that we're not taking things seriously as kind of like an escapism 'cause we don't wanna look at the pain of what's going on. And in fact, that's not really what we're talking about at all. We're talking about going deep into this stuff and still being able to laugh at it. And you mentioned a word there that just kind of opened up a lot for me here, which is magic, right? And I know I'd love to start down there with YouTube because I know like magic is something that we all talk about quite a bit.

And everyone has a bit of a different definition of what it is and how it manifests in their lives. But I'd love to hear, I know it's not on the panel, but let's talk about magic a little bit. And Sarah, I'd love to start with you.

Right, well, I liken artists to modern day shamans, magic makers, I think that magic is truly the transformation of energy and what's more magical than artists taking their inner thoughts and making them tangible into something that we can all experience in a way that normally would exist in this inner realm. So that's the way I relate to magic a lot in my own life and the people I work with.

And for me, so there's magic with the C and then there's magic with the CK. So magic with the C is like the art of illusion. So pulling the rabbit out of the hat. But magic with the CK is the art and science of basically transforming what you will, want to will into this reality. So it's the act of like being able to take a thought and put it into action. And if you look around you, like everything is magic, almost everything within this material plane first started as a thought. And if you can take a thought and create from that, that's magic, so.

That was really really well said. Michael, what's magic to you?

Okay, I got just an anecdote about this.

Okay.

So I'm a photographer and like a contact, we said, hey, we want to give you some cameras to dick around with. And this guy ended up contacting a friend of mine and said, yo, he's experiencing black magic. Like you need to stay the fuck away from this guy.

Like, and I think that, so in magic, I think that magic is just making shit happen. So it's like everybody has something inside their head. It's like our whole world is just an imaginary world. We're gonna make whatever the hell we want out of it. So it's just putting it out there. It's just making shit happen, just making your imagination work and then doing the work to make it happen and then overcoming all the obstacles along the way and dealing with all the shit in the past, blah, blah, blah. But it's really just getting there. Just go make something up and then do the work and making it happen.

And some people will use some like spells or charms or I don't know. (laughs) You're like, yeah, that's a charm and spells. Yeah, so some people are into that and then other people are just like, hey, I got to sit down in front of a computer and I got to like bust my ass and deal with the hardship for a minute. But I think they're both the same thing.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I've gotten, once you announced that you're interested in the occult or you, I've done all these interviews because witchcraft's very super trendy right now. So now then it really opens up my email inbox to the real opinionated people of the world. And I had a gallerist accuse me of bewitching clients into buying artwork, which I was just like, hell yeah, I'm bewitching everyone. What do you think advertising is? I mean, I got to sell artists' work so everyone can make money and pay their bills. So I also love this idea of bewitching like by commercials.

It's interesting because when you're talking about magic, Michael, it sounds like you're actually talking about creativity, right? And that's a form of magic. And I think what's interesting about the link between creativity and just to be clear, I'm not talking about just like making art or making music or drawing something, living is a creative act. That is what we're choosing to do every single day really is a creative act. We may forget that and go on autopilot sometimes but that's really what's going on. So the process of being creative or tapping into your own creativity or innate creativity is a spiritual practice.

That's when you're plunging into the depths of yourself to pull something out. So I'd like to hear, I guess, all of you have a different way of being creative. What is your creative practice? How does that influence your spiritual practice? And also, what does that even mean?

I'm looking at you, Killa. (laughs) You're up.

Well, I do think that magic is a key thing to look into when we're talking about creativity. For me, getting to that place where you're having holy shit moments of your mind being blown by creativity of your own or somebody else's, you look at the Beatles. This is an example of how synergy of four beings in the creative realm, with the help of spirituality elevated them to something that this many years later, we can all agree is total magic. And I think had they not done that kind of spiritual work and exploration and pushed their boundaries further and further and therefore had their music evolve further and further, we'd still be singing "Love Me Do" and we love it, but they were able to really kind of go somewhere that transcended all of their egos.

And I think that's why it's still kind of leading in most people's hearts of what is awesome music.

Can we, I just want to play with the word spiritual.

Yes, I would love to be.

Because you both spoke about it.

Yeah, yeah.

And then--

It's in our topic.

Yeah, but like they did the spiritual work. We all, we say that, but I just want to break out what spiritual--

Well, I appreciate that. I mean, honestly, this kind of event, I have loved tonight and this has been amazing and very different, but this kind of like wellness, spirituality, mindfulness, like I get the heebie-jeebies. The second I hear those words because it has been--

It weirds out so many points. Like spiritual--

A lot of people like probably might have wanted to hear these talks but aren't here 'cause they're labeled spiritual. Unfortunately, as you and I have talked about, we don't really have anything else in the vernacular yet to fill that. So we're talking about, you know, work that's on a plane that taps magic, I would say, that goes beyond our ordinary boundaries and that involves a lot of, you know, that's a little beyond your conventional mind. But do you have a better word for it, Michael?

No, no, of course not. He just wants to talk about the spiritual--

Well, it's actually really funny. This event is called Wellbeing in the Modern Age. It was actually called Spirituality in the Modern Age and we had an internal discussion about this that we actually changed the word because we felt spirituality was a loaded word for a lot of people.

It's the word--

And you got like 10 emails from Michael?

Yeah.

Yeah, you would have.

I mean, but the thing is this is a really good question. That's why I stuck it in our thing because I think it's important to identify what a spiritual practice is. And I also think it's important to identify the function potentially of a spiritual practice. A lot of us, probably in the beginning when we thought we were walking onto a path, whether it's Buddhist or Hindu or whatever it is, gravitated to crystals.

You know, crystals?

Yeah, crystals, I like crystals. I love crystals, truthfully. Whatever it is, I think a lot of us thought that we're gonna get on the spiritual path. We're gonna get a walk with this community of people and everything is gonna be smooth. Our life is finally gonna start working out. It's finally gonna start smoothing out the rough edges and everything is gonna be good. And I think what everyone finds out pretty quickly is the opposite happens. All the shit in your life starts to pop up and you have to deal with it or not deal with it, which is often a poor choice we make. And I think it's important that all I mean when I say a spiritual practice, it's something that connects me with the part of me where I don't have to think about who I am, where I actually know, like this is who I am, this is why I'm doing it.

So the word is loaded, but as long as it's connecting you with a really deep part of yourself that you can grok yourself, I think that's what it is. I'd love to hear truthfully, like what the word spirituality from the end, starting with you Sarah, we'll just go down the line.

What does spirituality mean?

Yeah, is your witch?

So I've read the internet. I think that's an incredibly difficult question to tackle. I think that spirituality means so much to so many different people. And what really drew me to being really open about the way spirituality affects my business was that I think that I want to always trust my intuition. And so I use a lot of that and I do have a meditation practice, but it was something I was really scared of being open about because of everything you guys were saying about this loaded word of spirituality, because unfortunately there's a lot of really bad stereotypes, flakiness, to woo-woo and being on another planet.

And that's wonderful, but when you own a business, like that's really difficult to do. So I think it's important to break those stereotypes, to have your feet firmly planted on the ground. But spirituality for me, I'm not sure. I don't know how to define that, exactly.

I think that's also where we need to create new languages for it, because it is something where people see, "Oh, you're spiritual." And there are tools, so you're just, all we're doing is just trying to find some tools that help us get through the day and help us understand the big picture of what's happening today or this month or this year or this lifetime. But then when you walk in and you have anything that you have is like a reminder. Like so sometimes while shooting, I'll bring my mala beats. And it's just a way that I can like, okay, I can like pull back if I need to, or I have like a playlist, if I need to pull back or whatever.

But it does, when people, again, when people hear the word, it's such a fucked up thing. So I think we just have to like, since none of us can really define it, maybe we should just come up with a new word for it. Like a word to replace. And maybe because spirituality is like God, and then people already love or hate the thing. And so we need to come up with like a new thing or like fragments of it.

It seems like a word that's somewhat inescapable at this point, which is why we keep leaning back on it. I think experientially what it means is something we do know what that is. We do know when we're doing spiritual work. I think a trap, and I would love to talk about this even though it's not specifically on the panel, is spiritual materialism or spiritual bypasses and using these identities that may seem exotic or someone has wisdom that we can go and bring to ourselves. And then will be wise, where I think another aspect of a spiritual path is discovering that this stuff is in you already.

You're not gonna go find something else out there, attach it to your identity, and then you'll be whole. It's really just a process of uncovering this stuff. And that's a means like what spirituality is. It's that constant process of digging until you get to the part where you're like, okay, that's it, that's who I am.

What's spiritual bypassing?

Spiritual bypassing is being like, okay, I don't have to worry about being a dick to that person 'cause I am conscious of it. I'm an elevated person. I don't have to deal with that problem. I'm an enlightened man.

Like I'm so unattached that I can sleep with a million women and not worry about what it means to my partner because I'm above it.

It's like the exact, no, it's so true.

I know, I've met that guy, I know that guy.

It's basically something that you use to not deal. It's the worst thing you can do on a spiritual path. You're basically using something else to distance your own cell from what you should be working on. I mean, I guess I'd like to shift the conversation a little bit to, again, the aspect of being creative and kind of living our lives and how this is manifested in all of our lives. We've taken relatively different paths to creativity, spirituality, comedy in your case. I mean, what point did you kind of shift and acknowledge that like, all right, this is what my life is. This is something that's important.

We're all here at this event, so we've made that choice at some point. Jen?

So for me growing up, I grew up as an occultist grandmother that read Alastair Crowley and H. B. Blavatsky, and I didn't have religion in my life. I had this free thinker and our house growing up, she had her own, Ms. Bosch, has gotten an earthly delights painting next to Goya's Saturn Devouring, it's young. So this is like a screenshot of my childhood. So growing up with this it was like kind of very hard, you know, especially in the area that I was in, it was very like waspy and very Christian and I got made fun of a lot. So as I grew into adulthood, I closeted a lot of my beliefs and I would just read to myself, I everybody knew I read Oracle cards, but I would never like open that door completely.

But then in 2012, I was actually working in a pop culture blog of all places for a reality star who shall remain nameless. But I really got into the Mayan calendar and I was like, oh, this is great viral content, whatever, but then I went deeper down the rabbit hole and the apocalypse, what does this mean? Is this happening, is the world gonna end? And it just sent me on this whole journey towards like understanding what that word apocalypse meant and really ultimately what it meant was revelation of truth. So after a series of psychedelic journeys and synchronicities, I just said fuck it. Like I have to come out of the closet and talk about what I believe in and I just wanna create what I wanna see exist in the world for somebody that was like me, that was a seeker and trying to find something to relate to.

And like ultimately like answering your question from before about what spirituality means. It's like, I don't, the word is hard, right? But for me, it's learning to find a way to have a relationship with the universe and with nature and understanding those patterns and what that really means for my life here. And the universe is ultimately chaotic. And one of my favorite axioms is out of chaos comes order. So it's like, how do you find a way to create through the chaos and find order through the disorder?

Which is exactly what we're doing, it living. That's literally what we're doing, whether we wanna dwell on that or focus in on it. That's, this is a pretty chaotic world. We're all pretty familiar with that at this point. Michael, I don't know that I've ever asked you this though. Like what got you, we met, we don't have to go into that whole thing. But what got you kind of on this stuff, you know? Like when did you kind of make that jumping off point or transitional period into like, you know, talking about this, we talk about this up regularly.

Yeah, well, okay. So I don't know, it just happened. But it's like, well, it's like that was everything. It just, it's gradual. It's just, it started. And as a kid, I was around a spiritual grandma and my mom was very spiritual. And then when I was doing art, it's similar to the comedy thing too, where it's like I was doing my art, but it was, it was just two different worlds. It didn't make any sense. And then I started talking more about the spiritual thing. And then I was doing spiritual bypassing. I became that asshole. And I think that's when you met me when I was like, oh, oh, look at me.

I'm so spiritual, huh.

I do actually really remember it.

Yeah, I think I was a dick. And I, but it's like, it's still part of it. But then what I had to do is I had to recognize like, now I feel like I'm in one of my better spots. Like I feel much happier and let's see what happens in six months and how that works out. But because now with my art and with the, so the art I would kind of go with the dark stuff. You know, and I would, I would go for like, I like crime scenes and movies and films. And I liked the dark shit that plays out inside the mind. Like if any, but like, you know, I have the spiritual family, but my mom showed me the exorcist when I was four.

So it clearly like started the nightmare dreams and that thing in my mind. But then where it started to make more sense is when I realized like, how in the spiritual world there's a lot of this like love and light and we just need to be calm, and there's this other side of ourselves at the end of the night where we're like, we hate the fucking world. Like I love everybody, but I fucking hate people at the same time, like not all the time, but there's a point where I just wanna like, not everybody, not all the time. And so many spiritual people won't, won't admit that part of themselves. They deny that part.

So when I was doing the spiritual podcast and I was like, oh, this is everything love and happiness. But then there was this other side of me that was conflicting with that, where I was like, when I remember I was walking out down the street and some guy like, honked his horn at me. Like I was, and it was like raining and I was cold and I was like a broke artist and I had holes in my shoes. And I was just like, you motherfucker, like you're honking right now. And the reptilian part just snapped on and I just like literally just walked over the window and I pounded on it. I was like, don't fucking do that shit.

And that's a side that a lot of people wanna do and some people do do, but they never admit it. They won't go down it. So where I feel like where it really started to click for me was recognizing that like this dark shit is actually really cool. I don't have to do it all the time, but if I can acknowledge it and put it into the art, 'cause there's a lot of people like what you're saying, a lot of people are dealing with this stuff, but then again, if they wanna go down that spiritual path, it's like, let's cleanse it all. Let's clean it all out. - We have to have angel wings on or something like that. - Yeah, and it's like fuck you.

Like fuck you for trying to tell me that I need to like clean it all. That's part of me. That's part of who I am. And it's a part of a lot of people. And so, you know, with my art, I've had my art in the past. I love my art. And I'm at the point, you know, we're rebuilding my website and I'm like, I just, I don't want that old shit. I want this new stuff because the new stuff is more fun. It's really acknowledging the full spiritual self. And I don't call it my spiritual self, it's like it's the full part of where it's like, it's the good, it's the happy, it's the laughter, it's the joy, it's all that happiness.

And it's also the fuck that shit. Fuck this, fuck that, fuck that.

Well, I mean, I think what you just mentioned there too. Oh, that's great. And that's what we should be talking about.

It's great. - No, it is. It is. - Fuck with the CK. Fuck with the.

They're different, yeah. No, I mean, what you're talking about is what Carl Jung referred to as the shadow aspect of the site. - Yes.

Right, and this is something that a lot of us, truthfully all of us, do a pretty tremendous amount of work to suppress most of the time. And sometimes for functional reasons, it's not always appropriate to go and yell at people and say, fuck you.

No, I don't do that as much now. But I did learn if you ride in the bike lane on your bike and someone steps out into the path, you do have carte blanche to say, get the fuck out of the bike lane.

That has happened to me. So yes, I'm like, I'm still that guy, but I'll be nice and pleasant. I mean, getting back to the shadow thing, I mean, this is again, this is how you can guard yourself against spiritual bypasses is by acknowledging that we all have this shit in ourselves. If we're walking around thinking that we're just enlightened beings of love and light all over the time, yeah, just to be clear, I genuinely believe that. But I also know I yell at my wife sometimes, I get angry and frustrated with my little son does something that annoys me 16 months. Like that's a dick move, but I have to acknowledge that because a lot of things we've been talking about tonight really do tend to go around this word that's a buzzword now, which is mindfulness.

And the reason mindfulness is a buzzword now is it starts with this very basic principle of being aware of what the fuck is going on. So that's when we start casting our glow and our attention in a certain place. And that also means looking at these shitty spots. And I think what you're getting at, Mike, why we touched on this is your art now encompasses every aspect of your being. You're not shying away from something. You're not doing what you did, Kelly, which is I'm a comedian here, I'm spiritual here. How did that work for you? I mean, you grew up, you unlike us grew up in a spiritual community, right?

I mean, I'd love to hear a little bit about that, but how did that work for you to kind of actually merge or integrate those two aspects of yourself?

Yeah, well, I think that I was really longing for that freedom to have that humor and also really aware of the, I mean, some of my greatest comedy shows, I feel the ones that have meant the most to me were when I've been roasting my own community, the symbolic community that I grew up in and actually seeing that people do wanna laugh at this stuff and just no one's kind of given them permission to have fun with it and just the awareness of the importance for any society. And I feel like we are building a new conscious, mindful, spiritual society here together. And in doing that, we have to have the kind of court jester.

That's the person who traditionally has kept the king and the society in check. So they have come together for me, but it really came out of this moment of heartbreak of losing my brother and having an existential crisis of like, I grew up thinking that I knew it was going on because these are precious teachings of meditation and all of this, but I had a moment of like, really what the fuck is going on here? And I turned to fellow comedians with my podcast and I've been astounded at what they've had to say because who sits, who is professionally sitting around thinking about like paying attention to all the details and looking at the ironies and idiosyncrasies of themselves and others, they really kind of learn a lot.

So if for me it extended my old idea that, you know, sitting, meditation and spiritual to realizing that we all have a lot of wisdom. And it's often the kind of the bad boys that are over there laughing at the rest of us that have some real wisdom going on. And they're not to be discounted in this movement certainly.

Dan, I can sense you wanna say something like that.

Yeah, as I say, I feel like laughter in and of itself is a medicine, you know? And I think a common thing that also happens like on the spiritual quest is that we get to a point where we start taking ourselves so seriously and that's like completely contradictory to what this is. So it's like really about like connection to everything, connection to each other. It's like, you can be spiritual, but also watch South Park, you know, like you can be spiritual and like find joy and satire. I feel like, you know, you don't have to necessarily like put on another personality mask to be a spiritual person.

It's about becoming who you like really are and like laughing at this crazy world that we live in.

And that's very connected with the dark side of it. And actually Michael's work is very funny. If you look at it, like there's some visual jokes going on there because he's inviting both the light and the dark together. And when that happens, it's sort of like, huh, those are both true.

Well, I think that, you know, like with jokes or laughter why it even happens is that, you know, when you're putting a joke together, you're taking one idea from this side and you're taking another idea from that side. And so when you hear that joke and it connects, you have this spontaneous, like this thing that comes out of your body, but it's when your mind is actually in your heart, it's like, oh, that's a truth. That's why when you see a comedian that kind of sucks is because they're not really speaking new truths. They're not putting two new things together.

Not connecting two sides of your brain or making new neural pathways happens when you get a joke.

Well, I'd like to, Sarah, something just popped in my head when you're saying this because you work with a lot of artists and I'm sure you come across artists going through creative struggles, going through authenticity issues and trying to get their true selves out in their art. What is that like as you, when you work with artists who are going for that? 'Cause I imagine a lot of your job is guiding them through those times.

Oh yeah, I think that I dealt with three existential crises on Tuesday. And I was like, can you guys please space these out a little bit more? We can't all break down on the same day. But I mean, like life is really fucked up. So I want to laugh every day. And when you, I just think when you just keep going through the darkness, you do get to that light and you're just like, what the fuck? And just, you have to laugh at everything or what are you gonna do, just die, I guess. (laughing) And just be upset, I mean, your options are to laugh about things or to let it consume you. That's what ends up happening to a lot of people.

And everyone, that's happened to every one of us. We've all been consumed by heartbreak or tragedy or trauma. And we hopefully have learned that we don't like that enough to try to find another way to engage with it. And that doesn't mean when your parent dies, you go to the funeral and cackling like a madman. That's not what we're talking about, process.

You can.

You can, if you totally can.

You can.

My friend had a death in her world and another friend that when I texted them was like, "It was funny to them and it's okay."

I don't think, of course, I mean, any reaction--

You have been friends.

Michael's always gonna take it to a place--

They're sitting like you're on the right now, like. (laughing)

Oh man, no, I mean, I think that's important. And another thing I wanted to bring up when we're talking about this stuff is we're also trying to normalize this very tricky concept of spirituality. We've already talked about how the word is loaded and it's stigmatized, but it's also cool to be a normal person and be into this stuff. You can be, like Jordan Pak was talking about before, we were joking about being Jews for Jesus. We're not actually Jews for Jesus, I grew up Jewish. I love Jesus, Jesus is amazing. Like it's actually incredible energy and I totally believe in it, but I also like football.

I also like regular things. So there are ways to kind of not push off aspects of your persona or personality and have them be integrated into what you're doing. I think that's what I thought this was basically about. How do we authentically live who we are and know that there's stuff that we can't perceive with our five senses, you know, Sarah?

Well, I don't think that we have to compartmentalize ourselves. I think that because of social media, we get to curate who we are and create these realities, which is wonderful, but it's also, I mean, you can't be completely serious all the time, you can't be completely present every moment of every day. So I think that it's important to be spiritual and laugh. I think it's important to encompass dark and light everything and it's okay to be that and it doesn't make you any less spiritual.

I wanna play with that thing about being present in the moment all the time, because I think that there's a time to be present, but there's also this bullshittery, like everybody's so focused on being present all the time. And when you're making the most creative stuff, you're not present at all. You're in this other world and you're, it's an out of body experience. And, you know, I'm sure working with artists, the best work probably comes from the people who are just fucking out of it.

Absolutely, those are my favorite people. I wanna go on those planets all the time. But yeah, I mean, and that's a lot of work too to be so present. I don't know. I mean, that's good. It also kind of speaks to the state of that, we can fall into the traps of thinking that we have to be perfect people, that we have to be complete, that we have to constantly be present, we have to mind our P's and Q's, we have to use right speech all the time. And then when we don't, it's okay, instead of saying that's okay, like we didn't use right speech, we did not use tact in that situation. We can then beat ourselves up, which you wouldn't do that to someone else if you saw them do that.

You wouldn't berate them and make them feel bad. So there is this aspect of self-reflection. How do we use these things? I also wanna ask you guys, 'cause I know we don't have a ton of time here, practically, what does this mean in our lives? Like it's great to talk about esoteric concepts and big, big picture stuff, but practically, how do you apply the principles of comedy or creativity or spirituality in your lives? We'll start with you and we'll go this way.

Well, I mean, that's, I feel like it's a pop quiz.

It is, it is kind of.

I mean, those are all very different things and they are also very connected. I mean, beyond having a regular meditation practice and keep, I would say with the humor thing, it's particularly keeping a sense of humor about yourself and whatever you get really into. And I think that has to do with fearlessness, actually. I think part of why there's fear in this movement sometimes is 'cause we all care and we're like, this is really special. People have goodness and awareness. And so we care so much that we're afraid of looking like we don't care as much as we do. So I think there's a little bit of a fearlessness to just being bold, being daring, and like Michael was saying with his work, kind of being who you are.

It's huge.

But for him, as someone who yells at bikers. (laughs)

Yell at pedestrians when I'm on a bike.

It's very different.

A big difference.

But kind of letting your balls hang out, so to speak, and letting that be a part of...

It's true. I mean, it's courageousness. It's fearlessness. It's being able to do this. And if you might be a person in the room who is laughing when someone farts in the meditation room and that's totally fucking cool. That's like not a problem.

So it's not a laughing part. (laughs)

I never grew out of that, actually. Neither did I. Don't worry about it. So Michael, for you though, like how, what practical tips have helped you? No, seriously, in your life, what do you do when you find some situation in your life moving into your space, to your relaxation, to your inner peace? Like, what do you do these days?

Get into the space or when I realize I'm out of the space?

When you realize you're out of the space.

Oh, well, okay, so this is, I think that the most important part is just that, 'cause I talk to friends about this stuff all the time. So that when they're out of their space, like you kind of like are gentle with them and you can be compassionate and kind of like let them deal with it and occasionally like feed them a tool to work for you. Because then, when I become the asshole and I've lost it completely, then they look at me and they say exactly what I need to say. Like I had a really fun experience. I was doing a job out in Michigan and the camera wave crashed over and broke the camera in the middle of the shoot or in the middle of the lake.

And my producer says to me, "Time to be mindful, just be happy, breathe." And I'm like, fuck yeah, yeah. Like this is the last thing that I wanna hear in that moment, but it's like it just anchored, it didn't really anchor me, that's bullshit. It didn't anchor me, I was still freaking out. It was an immediate like, okay, now I gotta start toning it down. And I had to like, we parked the boat and I just wandered off from everybody and I just did my thing because I'm in the middle of nowhere with like no camera and I've got to finish a job. And, but that's essentially it. I think that for me, the practical aspect is to have friends that I can talk to about this stuff and sometimes they look at me like I'm fucking crazy, sometimes I look at them and I'm like, I'm just, I get it and it's just passing it around.

And then we continue, it's the idea of Shambal, it's like lifting each other up slowly, slowly, slowly until we're in a more peaceful state. Like maybe I can get a tandem bike with a friend and we don't have to be yelling all the time.

Yeah, yeah. And Shambal, for those who don't know, that's Chogyum Trunkba's school or philosophy that is of an enlightened creative society essentially. So it does fit into this Jen, practical tips. I know I asked this at the end of my podcast all the time. So you've probably given some, but I think it's important that we do ground this to reality as well. So we don't just go off in a space and, you know.

I guess for me, like practical wise, I don't have like a routine, right? I meditate but not on a daily basis. But I think that the most practical thing that I've learned and what I live by is to follow your heart and to lead first with that. So, you know, one of my favorite visions, I guess, is in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, right? Where your heart is weighed against a feather and that's what allows you to like pass through to the next light. So I try with what I do to keep a light heart and sometimes to my own detriment, but not let it jade me. And, you know, just to remember to smile and ask questions and treat people like you want to be treated.

You know, we don't have to like make it so esoteric or overcomplicated and think it's like be kind, be good. Like just ask people how they're doing. I mean, it's as simple as that. It's as simple as like opening the door open for somebody, you know, like you can get deeper down the rabbit hole but simple ways of just being a good person in the world is just to like lead with your heart.

Absolutely, Sarah.

Well, on your podcast, we talked about the Golden Rule.

We did.

Absolutely my favorite. I do not treat people the way they treat you. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated. Even when people in the world is horrible, like stay warm and kind because when you harden up, other people do too. And I think that never get jaded is really important. Be kind to yourself and others and surround yourself with really good friends. I mean, Jen's one of my best friends and we send each other memes all day long and laugh all the time. And I just, yeah, like really laughing every day is a great, balanced everything.

I love it. I love it. Thank you guys for doing this.

Thank you.

Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Oh, my favorite people all in one place. Thank you again for listening to this episode. If you wanna watch a full replay of the entire, I think it's like four and a half hours long. There's four panels, there's musical performances of Wellbeing in the Modern Age. You can go to this podcast page, syncpodcast.com/witmalive. That's this episode page. There's a full YouTube embed. Massive thanks to Kent Speakman from connect.live who live streamed this entire WITMA event. It reached 90,000 people. And I don't mean like the Facebook reached, I mean, 90,000 people watched this while we were there doing it.

And I think that's fucking awesome. Again, incredible things to Kelly McLean, Michael Donovan, Jennifer Soudini, and Sarah Potter. And every other panelist, moderator, host, person who helped make this event happen, it was fucking awesome. That's all I'll say about it. I hope to see you at the next one if we do it around you. We will definitely be doing other ones. Like I said, I think our next big event will be in LA. Sometime in February or March, I'll keep you posted on that. And then also, if you have any questions, wanna see someone on the podcast, wanna just get in touch, know@sinkpodcast.com.

I like to talk, as you may have noticed. I also like to converse via email and other ways. So if you wanna get in touch, just shoot the shit. Let me know. That's it for this week. Thank you to Patrick Nemchik for supporting on Patreon, getting an episode out every week. You guys are the fucking best. I love you and I will see you next week.