Addiction, Mystics + Miracles with Luke Storey | 103

(upbeat music) Don't believe what you think. Like always question the thoughts and the information that are being projected from one's own mind.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Welcome to episode 103 of Synchronicity. My guest this week is Luke Story. Luke is a podcaster, a lifestyleist. You'll find out what that is. Just a generally awesome human being who is earnestly sharing stuff that's worked with him and with other people in the hopes that it could help them. And we like those types of people, right? Truth be told, I didn't know who Luke was up until about a month ago. This event we're putting on in New York City. There's a chance it'll pass, but you heard this, but if you're available to see it, September 21st at Noia House, it's called Wellbeing in the Modern Age.

We have about 20 panelists who are gonna be a part of this event. I'm not saying this is a promo for the event per se. I'm letting you know because Luke is, that's how he got tuned into Luke. He's a panelist. He was recommended to be a panelist at the event. And as part of the event, I'm having to go around and talk to all of these people, which has been both overwhelming but incredibly awesome because I'm getting to meet people like Luke and Connect and talk about stuff and realize how many more awesome people there are in the world. So let me say this, I don't always say this, but let me say this very clearly.

Luke has a podcast, it's called The Life Stylist. I highly, highly, highly recommend checking out his first episode, it's called Return of the Jedi. This was my crash course in Luke before we jumped on our podcast for synchronicity. And man, it's, I usually don't love listening to people talk like in monologue form for an hour plus. It's just not something I'm super into. You know, you find the rare people you can do it with, but for the general rule, it's not something I'm like that into. Man, with Luke and his podcast, it is so awesome. It touches on so many different aspects of life that are not only relatable, but inspiring and magical, but also practical.

So that's what we're going for if you haven't figured it out at this point and if you're just jumping into this podcast, go check out some other ones, lots of cool people. But Luke is really, really, really, really fucking cool. And I know I use superlatives and I know I use the same words, like awesome, amazing over and over again. But the truth is, is when you hit a certain threshold of words, what are words gonna do to explain what's going on? That said, let me use some more words to kind of get to the meat, the meat of what this podcast is about. So we talk about a lot of different things, mainly related to Luke's personal story, but they then quickly zoom out to these much broader kind of concepts that all of us face on a daily basis, on a life basis.

And it's just, I think applicable to anyone going through any type of suffering in life, anyone who's grappling or grasping with trying to understand their place, either as just a regular person in life, a creative professionally in relationships, a lot of these lessons that Luke has learned over the course of his life, I think are directly applicable to all of those things. And one of these is this concept of enlightenment. So when I was talking to a bunch of people about this event, it's called wellbeing in the modern age, a lot of people who I was speaking to were panelists were like emphasizing the point that, they weren't perfectly healthy, completed, radiant beings who had everything figured out.

And I was thrilled to hear that because that's not what MindPod Network is event, that's about events are gonna be about, that's not what MindPod Network is about as an entity, any of the podcasters, no one's claiming to have all of these answers figured out or anything, but we are able to authentically share things that have worked for us, not worked for us in our experiences. So one of the things that comes up in this episode is this concept of kind of letting go of this striving and accumulation of various things that aren't really serving who we really are. And I know that's like a complicated kind of platitude like statement, or it can be, but what I really mean is at the end of the day, if you really try to uncover what your true intention is, it's probably to be happy, to be loved, and then inevitably to love other people.

And it's pretty easy to see. And there are so many other things I can come on top of that that can fuck that picture up. (laughs) You don't have to get me started, and they're varying degrees of that, but really that's what everyone wants. Even sociopathic people, that's, you know, even if they have no feelings whatsoever, I don't buy it deep down, there's something that that's what they're trying to replace. So that concept in and of itself is both liberating and also just kind of like, well, great. I don't feel the love. I'm not feeling like I am a special or important person, or I'm not feeling like people love me, or I have anything to offer.

Those are super common thoughts to have, just in life, especially when things aren't going well. But I think the trick is here is to recognize that a lot of people feel like that. And if that doesn't make you feel better, because sometimes it doesn't, just knowing other people going through, it doesn't always necessarily make things better. But if that doesn't make you feel better, know that everything is impermanent too. And if you can kind of ride the suffering waves, as I'll put it, which Luke points out, and I agree with this, that we kind of signed up for when we incarnated on this planet, but believe in that or not, it's totally up to you.

But one of the things we signed up for is are these experiences that are laden with suffering? And they're not because we want to be dicks to ourselves. It's because they teach us a lot of things if we let them. And some may argue that this is just a very clever way of justifying horrible things. It has been my experience that as much as that may be a possibility, things do actually change when you kind of embrace this other aspect of reality that maybe we can't empirically prove. And to highlight that, you'll see in this story, one thing that changed Luke's life and he had no experience with it before was prayer.

In a moment of deep, deep despair, he prayed. And I've heard so many other people, so many people. I think if you go back to like another episode with Danny Goldberg, he also is super into prayer. These are people who are doing awesome stuff in their lives. Like this is, I'm not even touching on what Luke has done as a fashion stylist, as a musician, as someone who really kind of set his mind to things and achieved them in various ways, I'm not even getting into that. I'm just talking about his personal journey and how a lot of the concepts that he's experienced and things he's experienced are directly applicable to your life.

That's the most important thing I'm trying to communicate. And also this idea of achieving enlightenment and being a perfect, complete person. Sure, it's something to strive for, but to think that you're gonna do that or someone has all those answers and they just have to give them to you, that's not what it's about. It's more like uncovering and remembering that you have these qualities already. So anyway, I've rambled on for far too long. This episode is amazing, really go and subscribe to Luke's podcast. Like I said, I don't always say that so emphatically, I guarantee you'll enjoy it. Go give him a nice rating.

What a nice guy. Let's see, let's put it out there. I'm gonna let him know, but maybe we can get him on MinePod Network. That would be pretty cool. He seems like a good fit. So that's it. Thank you to everyone who is rating and reviewing this podcast. I really appreciate it. It also really helps. We hit a bit of a lull, but I'm not super upset about it 'cause it's at 108, which is a magical mystical number. Send me an email at know@syncpodcast.com to find out why that's a magical mystical number. So I'm not sweating it, but come on, let's get them up. I know there's people downloading. I know you people are listening.

Love the feedback, love the people contributing. Oops, said that word weird. Love the people contributing on Patreon, releasing more and more music. EP is coming after this event. Really gonna plug down, plug away and make some music. But until then, keep the support coming. Love the comments, love everything. Seriously, this event is going to be amazing if you can make it WhitmaLive.com. Luke will be there. Other awesome people will be there. Go check out the full lineup. That's it. I'm getting out here. We're getting a Luke. Big thanks, Luke, for coming on. You're gonna love this episode without further ado.

Here is Luke's story. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) I wanted to start by showing you this, 'cause like I was telling people, I was listening to your Return of the Jedi, your first episode of your podcast. And as you know, it's like one of the best ways to get to know someone is listening to them talk about themselves on their podcast, which is like a weird, and if you didn't know any better and hadn't done it, you'd probably think it's the most narcissistic thing you can do, but it's actually a very cathartic and awesome thing to do. But I was listening. This is all to say, and I had this thing.

This has followed me around for years. This thing is, you can see it's been burnt off and fell in a fireplace. At one point, I turned around, I pulled it out. So you're mentioning all of these saints, and what I'm holding up is a picture of Shirdi Sai Baba. And so I'm literally like two feet away from me, and your story is amazing for so many reasons, but you start naming these saints and I'm like, oh my God, there's a whole other dimension here that's going on, so I wanted to show you that picture.

That's my name, man, that's funny. Well, I love stuff like that. Yeah, I love the interconnectedness of the universe and experiences where the laws of physics and the linear sort of science-based reality gets annihilated. I had a funny, I was being interviewed by your friend Michael Phillips.

Shirdi drops. Yeah, Thirdi drops a couple of days ago, and I think it was him that I was relaying this story to. I decided the funniest experience, the other night, I was at this party. And it was sort of conscious health and wellness party for people in LA, like a private residence thing in Malibu, kind of fancy, cool setup, you know? And so I met a number of really fascinating people there that are like movers and shakers in this space. And I was sitting there talking to this guy for a couple of minutes, and I said, oh, hey, man, what do you do? Like, what's your passion? He's like, well, I'm a graphic designer.

But I work more in the corporate realm. I didn't tell him anything about myself, you know? He said, I work more in the corporate realm, and I'm not doing stuff that's really creative, so I'm looking to do more freelance work. And I was like, oh shit, that's cool, because I oftentimes need graphic design for the stuff that I'm doing. And I said, so why aren't you satisfied with your corporate graphic design thing? Are you like designing Snickers labels or something? And he looks at me and goes, dude, I work for Mars. (laughing) What the fuck is that? And I'm like, that's just, that's all day every day, you know, when you're plugged in, it's not like, oh, I have some special powers to think I'm psychic or something.

It's just, there's a level of connectedness that I really appreciate in the universe. And it's just, it's fun when, you know, the unseen hand kind of shows you like, ha ha, there's more going on here than you realize, dumb human, you know? (laughing)

Exactly, it's like piercing the veil. That's why, I mean, that's partly why this show is called synchronicity. It's a term that Carl Jung popularized, it's been around before him, but basically he called it the worst description ever, an a-causal pattern of orderedness, which is like Carl, do a little bit better. Really what it is is these things that lie outside of the domain of empirically being able to prove it over and over again, yet clearly hold not only significance psychologically, but externally. And there's this kind of interfacing that happens every so often. What I love about those things is, you know, in the early days, whenever you are in kind of a flow state or really just open and clear with this, those things manifest all the time, right?

And you can get like, awestruck. You're like, oh my God, like that's so crazy. That's the most amazing thing. And you have other people and they see it too. And you're like, oh shit, this is nuts. Over a period of time, at least as they've increased in frequency or duration in my life, you tend to look at those things, or at least I do, as like signs of like validation. You know what I mean? Like, oh, see, you're doing something related to what is supposed to be going on right now for you. Whatever that means. I think this is a good launching off place. We'll just assume we've started here too, by the way.

Well, thank you for coming on, man. Thanks, dude, this is, thanks for doing this on the weekend and for being so cool about it. And I know you're under the weather too, so. Oh, I love it. I love it. It's actually great to be a little, like we were saying before we started officially recording, if we even are. It's great to actually have the experience of feeling a bit under the weather and just having the attitude of the show must go on. Like, I interviewed David Wolf, the famous superfruits, you know, health guru. And I've seen him speak a bunch of times over the years and you know, he's just always there.

And he travels like, I don't know, 300 days a year. So it's just, and he told me, he said, Luke, I've done, I forget the number, but it was like, you know, 15,000 appearances or something astronomical number. And he said, I've never once ever missed the date. I was speaking, like I've never canceled. And I was like, that's a good benchmark. I'd like to be able to report that someday, you know, so. Yeah, I always marvel at people who can do that. It's fun, you know, to be actually like not feeling that awesome and just power through it. And I guarantee you, my immune system will benefit from us having a great conversation because it'll lift my spirits.

I'm not gonna sit around the house, you know, arrogantly defiant of the fact that I Luke, the great health guru. (laughs)

I love it. I also like the synchronicity of you being a little under the weather and your main focus is how to be as healthy as possible.

Dude, I was like, I was posting some stuff on Instagram yesterday and I was like, it's so ridiculous. But I was like, oh, I can't let my followers like see that I got a cold. 'Cause I'm like telling them all the shit to do, you know? Now that said, I get a cold like once every two years, you know? So I'm still doing pretty well, but yeah, it was, it's definitely a humbling experience 'cause all the shit I do on a day to day base, it's like, how could I possibly be vulnerable to any type of pathogen or something? But, you know.

That's the lesson though, right?

Protoplasm has its weak points, you know, for everyone, I guess.

Well, no, it's also the lesson, right? Like I've found that whenever we're talking about surrender a little bit and I know that that's a big part of kind of what your journey has been through in a lot of different phases. And what happens to me, and I'm reading a book, revisiting a book, one of my favorite books by Chokem Trunka, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, just an amazing, really directed for Westerners who may find some value in Eastern philosophies but don't wanna necessarily exoticize it to the point where like, that's like their thing now, they just wanna get the wisdom parts out.

And he talks about this funny thing that starts happening, which is when you really start surrendering and really start opening up, and I heard you mention this at the end of your intro episode is, these don't necessarily get easier. Like it's not like everything starts getting great and you're surrendering and then bliss flows in and you maintain this state, but you're constantly confronted with your own shit. So if you have any kind of vulnerability related to being like not healthy because that's your thing and then people see it and maybe you don't know what we're talking about, boom, next thing you know, you're gonna be on a podcast when you're not feeling that great and you gotta get confronted with that, which is tough 'cause we want this shit to be easy.

Like we want it to be like, you know, idealize rainbows and unicorns all the time and sometimes it is, right? Obviously, but most of the other time it's not, but it's still valuable. I mean, let me see this 'cause I just got like a whole biographical dose of who you are, but I would love like in a nutshell, explain what you're doing with the lifestyleist, briefly how you got there. I mean really, it doesn't have to be brief, however you wanna describe it, kind of like what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Well, let me see, let me see if I, 'cause I do like to be concise with that stuff. When I interview people and I like, okay, so what's your story? How did you like get to where you are? And then they go on for 45 minutes and I'm like, "Oh damn it, I actually just wanted like a snippet of that so we could get into the meat of your teachings or your content, you know, so I try to be aware of that." But, you know, essentially dude, like many of us, I just, I grew up in a lot of trauma and just dysfunction and divorce parents and got really into like really hard drugs at a very young age, like, you know, before middle school, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

And just really had a hard time making it in the world and just felt really, really uncomfortable for most of my early life and didn't have any sort of spiritual framework or any sort of real support until I went to this weird sort of cult boarding school in Northern Idaho, it was called Rocky Mountain Academy and adults now that went through that program, there's like Facebook groups where they call themselves survivors, like that's how weird it was. But I sort of, you know, I was getting arrested, I was breaking into houses at 14 years old, like I was on my way to the prison system without a doubt and all the kids that I ran around with that were in that environment.

It's not like I grew up in the ghetto of Compton or some shit, it's just kind of white trash, neighborhoods in the suburbs of Northern California and just, you know, just shit was dark, you know? And so I got sent to that school, but what was cool in that school, even though it was a bit cult-y and weird and there were some questionable punishments and there was a lot of brainwashing involved, I think with a positive intent, but I was brainwashed at 14 for two years from 14 to 16, really with the value and meaning of spiritual principles. And so I had this sort of foundation that, ah, there's something more here than my suicidal thoughts and my shame, which is all I really knew at 14 years old and seeking every means by which to escape from the negative feelings of that experience, you know, whether it was drugs or, I mean, I was into pornography when I was like eight, you know what I mean?

It's like anything I could do to get out of myself, you know? Wait, I forgot I just said that on Instagram. (laughing) I don't care. Pornography is great medicine for a time, you know? And then it sort of, once it's course. But anyway, point being, I went to that school and I mean, there was all these things where they did sleep deprivation exercises and there was all this group therapy and experiential therapy and a lot of expressive emotive therapy where you, you know, beat on pillows with wiffle-ball bats or tend like it's the person that molested you and just like super crazy heavy shit for a 14 year old to go to.

But I had a framework of, I guess, spirituality from a psychological point of view. But then I got out of that school and I didn't realize I was already an alcoholic and a drug addict and I didn't know about this thing called the phenomenon of craving. It's something that's referred to in recovery, in addiction recovery and it's, and people that aren't addicts and alcoholics, they don't understand it and it's irritating to them because they can just have one beer and they're fine.

And like how good, yeah, like what's your problem? You just kind of like it more than it, yeah, yeah.

So I didn't know about that so I got out and I stayed sober for about a year. And then when I was, I got out when I was 16, then when I was 17, I smoked weed one time, dude. And I immediately started smoking weed every day, started taking acid in high school, like in home at class, I'd just be frying balls. I mean just copious amounts of cocaine, just went off the fucking deep end. Within a year, I was like a teenage alcoholic like off an after school special, just super normal.

Right, right.

Moved to Hollywood when I was 19, wanted to be a musician, was a musician still am, I see you have a guitar there, mine's hanging around somewhere. And then I just, dude, I was 19, I got a fake idea, I moved to Hollywood, I started hanging around with all these musicians, you know, that I had listened to in high school, the guys from Guns N' Roses and just, you know, the dark underbelly of the Hollywood rock and roll scene and forgot about all that stuff that I had learned at that school and had no framework for any sort of grounding or spirituality was still just trying to self-medicate and I really, really hurt myself psychologically, physically and became horribly addicted to drugs and just very despondent, depressed, suicidal, lived in constant rage, hostility, anger, depression, crying all the time, just nervous breakdowns all the time, just a fucking mess, but all the while, I was also like drinking wheatgrass juice and smoothies and getting into herbalism and superfoods and even toying around a little bit with Eastern mysticism and my family was going to India and seeing these gurus and they'd come back with these mystical experiences and so it's like, I was sort of, you know, walking on a path with, you know, one foot in the grave and one foot, at least a toe in the spiritual health realm because from that experience at that school, I knew that I was living in direct opposition to my highest good, even though there was moments of like ecstasy when I was like, I hit the perfect mixture of drugs and I had some relief and, you know, a reprieve from that mental torture and emotional torture that I was living under, but I still knew there was like that still small voice inside that was like, Luke, you're supposed to be sober, dude, like your fucking life sucks, you know?

And so that sort of ran its course and I can summarize and kind of end it with this is that when I was 26, I just hit this point where I had this visceral feeling, man, that's just, I knew inside that I was either going to go to jail very soon 'cause I was dealing drugs and doing a lot of shady shit and I was getting sloppy because I was so fucked up or that I was gonna get rolled 'cause I was putting myself in really dangerous situations, I got robbed once, like it was starting to get a little gnarly in that way, all my relationships were falling apart, my dream of being a musician was literally going up in smoke, like heroin and crack smoke.

Right, not even a figure of speech.

Yeah, literally.

Just smoking away my life, you know, and my dreams and, you know, we almost got a record deal and then we wouldn't show up for the fucking meeting, it was just classic, Kid moves to Hollywood at 19, gets totally absorbed in the drug scene, wants to be famous, be an artist, all that, and then it all just went away. And I checked myself into a treatment center and I had my first really profound spiritual experience that I'm still writing on the coattails of today, and that is, I was just horrendously addicted to so many different drugs and alcohol and I checked myself in this place with some help and then I wasn't capable of getting myself anywhere, anything my mom helped me get in there and paid for it and lent me the money actually, took me five years to pay it off, it's $10,000, which is when you're a junkie, $10,000 is like a lot of money.

I've never sinned and rehab gone, man, you know how much dope I could buy with 10 grand? But what happened for me was on that first day, I didn't know what to do because I woke up with nothing on me, I didn't have anything to medicate with and so I started to get sick and I didn't know anything except what my mom had told me 'cause she was in recovery and she said this whole thing, the solution to your problem is spirituality and if you wanna get better, you have to pray, it doesn't have to be to Jesus, it doesn't have to be to Buddha, Trumpa, Rinpoche, whatever, it's whatever you want it to be but you gotta know that you're incapable of helping yourself and that was the first awakening and I woke up in that place dude and I started praying just like, I don't know, it's like shit, I saw in the movies or something, you get on your hands and knees, you put your hands like this, you lean on the bed and you pray to God and I did and I just said God, you gotta help me, I can't stop this and I'm gonna die, I know I'm gonna die and if I'm not dying physically, I'm dead inside, my soul was dead, you gotta help me, please remove me of this obsession, I mean it was just all I thought about Noah all day long in any waking hour was like using what I had or how I was gonna procure more and I mean, it just has my whole life revolved on that and I wanted so bad to be relieved of that and then why I say that was a spiritual experience is because from that day until this day right here, this is almost 21 years later, I never once in my entire, that time period have ever craved drugs or alcohol ever again.

It's just like, it's like you had a tattoo that you couldn't fucking scratch off and then one day the tattoo was just gone and never came back and it's like you can't explain how the tattoo disappeared, it just fucking disappeared and then of course, you know, the last 20 years have been really what brought us here and is the actual answer to your question is that I was so curious about what had happened to me, that phenomenon that was unexplainable, the only thing that could explain it was that I humbled myself enough to ask this unseen hand of this universal love and intelligence to protect me and guide me and allow me to evolve as a soul and so as we started this thing with, yeah, it's been a bitch because everything that I've been doing for the past 20 years has been systematically revealing all of those underlying roots and the causes and conditions of why I felt the need to ingest copious amounts of chemicals on a daily basis for all those years just to be able to walk down the street and go get a fucking sandwich, you know?

It's like I couldn't do anything unless I was absolutely floored, you know, and so then began the journey into herbalism and going to India and sitting in darshan in front of gurus and learning to meditate and float tanks and infrared saunas and, you know, just everything I've done to sort of just optimize my life and I worked in a fashion for a long time and it's a whole other story, but essentially I was a fashion stylist in Hollywood and dressed musicians and actors and things like that and I would piece together outfits based on the coolest shit that I could find to put together and then I realized I was kind of doing that in my life and I'd do that for friends and family and even had a few clients here and there and I thought, you know what?

I'm gonna quit being a stylist of fashion and be a lifestyleist and I'm just gonna help people piece together different components of practices of spiritual principles and principles of health and wellness and just put those together for people and then came the podcast of the lifestyleist a year ago where I get to interview amazing people who are experts in different fields in that realm and sort of present them to people in a way that's, I think what you're doing as well is a way that's relatable and is detached from any dogma or like a belief system, so you can listen to the show and you don't have to believe any of it, just keep an open mind and I'm gonna bring in some people that are gonna fucking trip you out.

Exactly.

And you can take what you like and leave the rest and I'm finding that I, you know, based on the feedback 'cause I'm really helping masses of people with health problems, emotional problems, spiritual problems and like you said, it's this cathartic experience where I'm using my own podcast as like a tool for spiritual growth because I'm allowing myself to be so vulnerable and then dude, I'm on your show. I don't know how many people you're at, I'm on Instagram live like telling the deepest dark, it will not the deepest and darkest, but some of the deepest, darkest secrets of my life, not to be, you know, a flamboyant about it or sensationalize it, it's just, I want other people to know that you don't have to suffer, that you can actually have a good life no matter how shitty things are and I've figured out a lot of ways to do that.

Yeah.

But when you ended suffering for yourself, it's not only selfish to not turn people onto it that are interested, not to proselytize, but for people that come to you, say, hey, I want to know what you did, how do you do it? To not share that is not only selfish, but it's like, it's painfully stifling to one's heart because you have this sense of gratitude and compassion and empathy having been through the fucking fire.

Yeah.

And no, I wouldn't say come out the other side, but you know, three-quarters of the way through, maybe and still working on it, but for someone who's just putting their first foot on the hot coals and they're like, fuck, what way do I turn? It's really beautiful to have the opportunity to kind of help people, so.

Yeah, man.

I totally defied my promise of making it--

Oh, that's been 45 minutes, we're done, we're done. (laughing) But that's, for whatever reason, that all needed to come out and that was kind of the scope of it, but it's just, you know, from suffering to suffering less, to less, to less, to less, to less, but like you said, the spiritual path is not for the faint art.

No.

It is not fucking sitting on Instagram doing ohms, you know.

No, it's not.

With hands and move mantra or whatever the fuck it's called. It's like, dude, the more I surrender and I ask God to help me grow and to show me what it is in me that still needs expansion and evolution, the universe answers with like, okay, cool, here's a relationship for you, here's a career change, here's a business partnership eruption that you have to do. (laughing)

Tell me about it, my friend, yeah.

You know, it's like, it's non-stop, fantastic, Magoria of challenges, but on the other side of each one of those is like, it's like going through the woods and coming out in a beautiful meadow, you know. There's so many meadows now, so many plateaus where I'm like, holy shit, I didn't even know this level of like personal soul freedom was possible and I'm finding that on a weekly basis largely due to having a platform by which to really explore these things with myself and a bunch of fellow travelers.

I know and it certainly puts the, first of all, first of all, before I even launch off that, amazing, like dude, so many amazing things you mentioned through that entire journey and I just, I'm gonna, I never do this, I never, ever do this, but I'm doing it because I was so moved and impressed. You know, go check out Luke's first podcast episode, Return of the Jedi because it is truthfully one of the most entertaining and like you said this, a lot of people could start a podcast or start something like the lifestyleist for, you know, let's be frank, narcissistic or ego boosting reasons and I won't let anyone totally off the hook for every aspect of having an ego, that said, it is very clear to hear when people talk, off the cuff, extemporaneously, where they're coming from and what their intention is and I listened to you for damn near an hour and a half, whatever it was and was just blown away by how authentic your journey has been and also that your intention to help people is the reason for doing this.

I also, you know, once in a while get the benefit of, you know, tingles up and down my body when I recognize, you know, something's really going on and that happened quite a bit during this. So, dude, so, so many things there. I mean, I guess one of the places I'd really like to start and I'm sure it's close to your heart too, is the addiction stuff because I know a lot of people struggle with various forms of addiction in their lives and it can certainly be drugs, it can be codependency and relationships, it can be anything. I mean, what would you say was one of the biggest takeaways from your personal journey through addiction that you could offer someone listening who'd be like, yeah, I think I'm going through something like that or maybe they heard you say something and it just clicked like, fuck, I'm always thinking about something or getting something.

What, besides prayer, which you mentioned, which I know is actually the biggest thing and we're definitely gonna delve into that, but a practical next day step for someone, like if you're there and you think that's what's going on, like I would love to hear you expound on that.

First thing I'd like to say is I think your assessment that I won't say all because you can't be that general, but I would say most human beings have an addictive propensity toward one thing or another.

Exactly.

And for me, it's been Noah, like, it's just becoming free of one addiction and being like, oh, great, you know, I'm off the hook and then like just finding that it's manifested and I'm like, wait, like now what I'm honestly working on right now is my addiction to my phone.

Oh my God, me too, it's scary as fuck.

Like last night, honestly, and I think it's, you know, I'm gonna give a little bit of an excuse 'cause I'm not feeling that well, so I couldn't do much else. I'm not gonna like get up and clean the house or something, but last night I literally spent like, now this is embarrassing to admit, but it's a good humble exercise. I probably spent two hours just zoning out on Instagram and Twitter and just like refreshing it over and over again.

And you're noticing getting those traps, right? You're just like, you're just going, you're looking and you're going and it's like, what the fuck? And then you're out of stuff and you're like, no, why?

Yeah, exactly, so it's, you know, I'm just looking for, it's all, what it all is, dude, is it's a dopamine hit.

Exactly.

I mean, this is the neuroscience of addiction is that we're all just looking for that feel-good chemical and you know, the crazy thing about it is that well, you can get what you're looking for through human connection and unconditional love. I mean, that's what we're all missing and I think the root of all addiction on some level is shame. You know, and there's some sort of trauma whether it was a very subtle ambiguous trauma, like abandonment, maybe a parent was like home all the time but they weren't home, you know what I'm saying? They weren't there for you, that's trauma, that's shame. I mean, all the stuff that we go through as kids, unless you were fucking raised by the Dalai Lama, well then you might be missing your mom 'cause maybe they're like, he's living this money out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how Dalai Lama impregnates anyone, but I mean if you have, you have to have like, have karmically inherited the most enlightened fucking parents and family to not have trauma and very few of us are, you know why? Because to me, this is just my experience, the earth is created to suck on purpose because we choose to come here on this earth plane to have the experiences that we have in order to evolve. That's why I don't get into like, save the worldism and I need to change the world, the world is wrong dude. Was it the Maharishi I think said, one of those guys, one of the rishis said, you know the world you see doesn't even exist, it's all a projection, you know and it's all the matter that we're even looking at isn't actually reality, so it's like, the basis of addiction is the painful experience of being human and I think some of us just biologically have a propensity toward becoming addicted to chemicals, you know, because, you know, plenty of people, I got a brother, I got two brothers, one of them is more like me, I wanna out him, but you know, he's, I would say more prone to addictive behavior than my other one, my other brother, Andy, dude, the guy, he can't even finish a beer.

I'll look at him and be like, dude are you gonna, aren't you gonna finish that? You know, this is like classic sober alcoholic, I'm like, you know you're an alcoholic if you monitor everyone else's drinking and you're like, why didn't you finish that? Or you're looking at someone like, oh he just finished his fourth drink, he might be like me.

You're tuned in, yeah, you're tuned in.

But there's a biological element where like, there's definitely some sort of allergic weird reaction that some of us are just born with. From the first moment I smoked weed, I'm like, yeah I'm doing this every day, all day and I did, you know, I don't know, dude, I was seven, eight years old at first time, I smoked weed or something, you know, I was just ridiculous. So, first, you know, to get to the answers, like okay, so what does someone do? First is like tracing back the identification, like is there some discomfort that I'm trying to mask using some behavior or some substance, that's like the first level of awareness, you know, it's like why am I checking my phone all the time like that?

Well, maybe it's because I don't wanna work on my fucking resume because I have self-doubt about and injecting myself into an industry that I'm insecure in, you know, I mean it's like, you don't wanna get ego obsessed in self-analysis, but there is just a basic level of self-awareness that's like, if I'm doing some repetitive behavior that I'm having a hard time controlling, why? What am I running from?

What's the function too?

Yeah, right. And then so beyond that level of awareness, the second stage after that I would say is that it's important to define what is actually addictive and what's just kind of like a quirk or a habit. So, you know, I don't feel like I'm addicted to my morning smoothie, but it's just part of my routine. I get up and I, you know, I make my little green juice, my bulletproof coffee, whatever. It's like, I could stop doing it if I wanted A, so that disqualifies it from being an addictive behavior. B, it doesn't have deleterious effects on my life.

Exactly, exactly.

So, the defined addiction for me would be any repetitive habit that A, I have little or no control over. B, it has detrimental effects on my life, yet I can't stop doing it. And so, there's a lot more productive things that I could be doing, like reading a great book rather than fucking around on my phone. So, the phone is actually at times destructive to my mental and moral and emotional fiber. I wanna stop doing it as much at least, and I can't. So, therefore, I would qualify that as an addiction.

Yeah, man. Well, this is also a really big issue just in general for a lot of people, and I think one of the reasons a lot of us struggle with the phone addiction, especially if you have a propensity for enjoying technology and seeing it evolve, like you and I both remember what it was like before the internet, you know? And what was going on before then? Like, what could possibly, we have that memory. Kids now don't. So, if you liked it as growing, when you were growing up, you were like, okay, cool, technology. This is mass communication. What you're doing right now with Instagram Live, how we're communicating, this is awesome.

But something happened in the past 10 years, where it stopped being kind of we go on our computers to communicate, or we're texting with our friends, and information not only was delivered to us, but we started seeking it out in such a repetitive way. And so quickly, I really don't know anyone, truthfully, anyone, and I'm talking from mindfulness teachers who are friends to people who are younger, kids, to people my age, who can remember not stuff. It's insane. We don't have time to process what's been going on, but the first step, as you mentioned, with addiction, whether it's drugs or phone or anything, is that awareness, which is why I think mindfulness and meditation are having such kind of a moment right now, because that's what you learn very quickly.

Like a lot of people think I'm gonna meditate because I wanna have peace and serenity and clarity, and it's like the first thing you realize whenever you actually go and meditate is like the opposite. It's actually what you're gonna experience. So, but yeah, the phone stuff is really, it's really, really tricky because there are more, especially if you're smart about justifying things, there are more outs with technology and mass communication and social media and all these things than there have ever been before. And that's scary because you and I, listen, we're delving into our lives almost on a daily basis, whether it's reading, speaking to people, interviewing people, trying to upgrade our lives by being more mindful of what we put into our bodies.

Not everyone has the space and time to even do that, or even begin to ask those questions. So it really does like shine this light on something that you think such as you and me, it's everyone, right? I mean, so it's, it really, I'm sure, and we'll get to this how all of the lessons that you learned through your journey, this is one of the most trippy things I've found is all of this stuff always impacts the present moment every single time, every point of your life. And if you can remember these moments like surrender, prayer, faith, these types of things, they give you kind of the blueprint to have a navigate both the ups and downs and addictions, and plateaus and meadows and things.

So dude, I have a few questions for you that I wrote down that I typically don't do, but I saw you post about it, and I've seen it pop up enough in my life recently, and I've known about it for a little bit. But I'd love, and I know it's not your thing, could you tell me a little bit about course and miracles? Because I've seen this pop up throughout my life, and I've never delved into it. I've never had an aversion to it, but it's never been something like that. I'm gonna pick up. But I see a lot of people I respect and I admire referenced this quite a bit. So I'd love to know like anything, 'cause I saw you just got like an expanded version of it, or pretty excited about it.

Yeah, well, you know, I have to preface that by saying that I, by no means of an expert, am an expert in a course of miracles, and have yet to complete the yearly program.

Sure.

But I do have the basic gist of it, because there are principles in there that are really valuable. So essentially from what I understand, a course in miracles is essentially what turned into a book, and it was one of these things of sort of channeled information that came through this woman, who just like randomly started writing shit down. And it, you know, had a little, I wouldn't say it's like biblical, but it definitely has an element of Christ consciousness in here and in, even though it's not a dogmatic belief system or part of a religion. And so essentially the official version of a course in miracles is there's a daily lesson that you do for a year.

And it's just a thought that you sort of ponder. And the basis of a course in miracles, which by the way, people want to learn more about this, almost all of Marianne Williamson's work is based on a course in miracles. And if you have a chance to go see her speak, most of her perspective comes from that framework. And it's, she's just fantastic. I'm like, she's on my vision board to like get her on my show, 'cause she just, she's seen her speak something.

I might be able to help you with that.

Oh, cool, okay. I mean, I'm just like, I love her, man.

Let's get to know.

She's amazing. And the framework of her teaching is a course in miracles. So I humbly hesitate to even speak on it, but it is one of the things that I've played with a bit and definitely relate to that perspective. And you could boil down a course in miracles, much like the work of Byron Katie, who's another one of my dream guests and the spiritual teeterologists listening to her podcast this morning, is don't believe your mind. And that going back to addiction, we're all addicted to thinking. And if you don't think you are, try to stop. Try to make your mind quiet right now, anyone listening and see if you can make it five seconds.

You won't make it at 10 thousands of a second without a thought being produced. And now some of those thoughts just turn into a more negatively charged thoughts. And a course in miracles is about divorcing yourself from negatively charged thoughts and feelings and becoming aware that there's another source of divine power and intelligence that's available to us at any moment. And the 365 day lessons, which I've made it probably the day 25 and I'm just like, oh, I can't remember to carry the book around and then I try to find an app or a podcast.

You sound like me. Yeah.

I just get frustrated and I can't like, it's just not convenient. But essentially it's a daily meditation and they all have to do with the fact that the reality that we think we perceive doesn't exist and it's about changing your perspective. And this is, you know, this is the basic teaching if you boil down the 12 steps of addiction recovery, it's that A, I have a problem, whatever that problem is, and this goes back to the addiction question. B, I can't solve it in and of my own power. I can make a contribution to the resolution of this issue or this addiction or this negative thinking, but I ended up myself just totally isolated within my own willpower, cannot fucking fix this.

And then see that there is some other benevolent force or power available to me within this known universe that if I can humble myself enough to communicate with does have the ability to actually align, I can align my will with the will of that thing and I can achieve release from the pain of my emotions, the pain of my thoughts, the pain of my addictions. And so it's interesting that you kind of piggyback the course of miracles thing on the addiction because it's all the same thing.

That's why I even preface it like that. I mean, this is what I've found over the years, both experientially and, you know, researching, reading, talking to people, community stuff is, the underlying messages of all the mystical traditions, philosophical traditions, you know, going back to all of our recorded history really seem to boil down to two core principles. One is this idea of wisdom, which is a word that can be a bit nebulous, but I just tend to look at wisdom as clear seeing, clarity. That's all, whatever is actually there, that's what you're seeing. And then this other idea of unconditional love or compassion, however you want to use semantics to describe that.

And I've had experiences too that have backed up that that's the foundation of what's going on. And it's interesting that of course, miracles puts you in contact with whatever that is, I think also paradoxically, as I'm sure you realize with a lot of the interconnectedness stuff is, we are also that, right? That's the Nissar-Got-A-Maharaj, who I also heard you mention.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

One of my all-time favorite, I mean, just his aphorisms and his quotes just stand the test of time in such an amazing way, every single one of them too.

Oh, dude, yeah, I am that. I don't know, I think I might have mentioned it in my first episode.

You did, yeah, you did.

I got that book, man, and I used to read "I Am That" when I was as high as fuck, and I was just wanting to escape from that penitentiary. What do you call it, penitentiary.

Penitentiary, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughing)

Too much drugs, but I would read that book, and it's like, I had no idea what he was talking about, but I knew there was truth in there, but I wasn't at a level of understanding or consciousness at that point in my life where I could actually connect to it. And it's so funny now, 'cause I have that book. It's right on my shelf right here, the Nisargadatta Maharaj. I am that for your show notes or listeners or anyone on Instagram. Try and remember that name.

Yeah, it's worth it.

The book, "I Am That." Yeah, it's from the Vedic perspective of that there is only one thing. There's one universal thing, and we are just an expression of that one thing, meaning consciousness and God and all of that, right? Now I read that book, and it's, I mean, it sounds like really egotistic to save it. It's really basic to me now. It's like, oh, dah, not that it isn't profound, but it's profoundly simple. The wisdom is so simple of that teaching. It's that if I'm suffering, it's because I'm in separation from the great reality, capital T, G, R, the great reality, the one, the thing, the universe, consciousness.

It's that I've cut myself off from that based on erroneous thoughts that I'm believing and buying into or based on being overpowered by emotions that I'm buying into, or just my instincts that are cocooning me off in this womb of selfishness and self-centeredness where I've literally cut off my consciousness from that thing, and I'm living more on an animal level. Not there's anything wrong with the animal level, but I don't wanna go cuddle a fucking tiger.

Well, and you also don't wanna be ruled completely by your instincts because if we did everything based just on throat level reptilian brain instincts, we'd probably end up being president. So, you know what I mean? Like, my point is, is that?

Yeah, so all the teachings, basically, to me, all, you know, whether you're addressing addiction or addiction to your thinking or just negativity or you just are unhappy, like, all those paths lead to the same peak of the mountain and essentially they all say that ego's not bad, you're thinking's not bad, it's part of the human experience, but if you wanna transcend those lower levels of consciousness, and this really speaks to the work of David Hawkins, who's probably my all-time favorite spiritual teacher.

Just found out about him. Just found out.

He's a big fan of Nisargadatta Maharaj, and he's just so on point. But if I wanna transcend those levels of consciousness throughout the course of this lifetime or any lifetime to come, then that happens through an awareness of what I really am, which is an expression of that one thing, of that consciousness, you know? And in that is the answer. And it's just a matter of, like, whether or not you relate to Marianne Williamson or Byron Katie or David Hawkins or Maharishi or whoever is your messenger that, like, speaks your language. For me, I go through phases of them, you know, or I get this book and I'm like, "Ah, this is the one."

And then it doesn't become not the one, but later on I just have a different level of understanding and a different perspective. I find another teacher or another book that says the same fucking thing as all the other 20 teachers and 20 books I've been through, but it's just in a little bit different vernacular or a little bit different tone or personality, you know? But it's funny 'cause I keep kind of going in circles in terms of spiritual research and development. It's just like, okay, I learned this in my first fucking 12-step meeting, you know? It's like 20 years later going across the planet to find spiritual teachers.

It's like, oh, yeah, I kind of already knew this.

Well, this is--

And that's why we resonate with these teachings because you mentioned wisdom. Inherently, we are all in possession of that wisdom. That's why it resonates with us. It's a resonant frequency. When you hear the truth, not the mind, not the ego, but your consciousness hears the truth. It goes, ah, that's it, that's it, that's the fucking answer. You just know that it's true.

Exactly.

And on some level when your mind tells you that you should punish this person and get revenge on them or that you're a loser and you're never gonna be successful or you're never gonna find true love or whatever the mind will tell us that like you said, the meditation of mindfulness is a means by which to get in that witness position and observe everything that's not real by connecting to the one thing that is real.

And so what, obviously we can come to spontaneous realizations or epiphanies related to those types of concepts. Obviously you came in to them experientially, but you also were seeking them out. You read exactly what you were describing. We could probably go back and forth with book trading and be like, oh my God, yes, this is amazing. I do the same thing and I know a lot of other people do. And to me, they serve almost as like reminders. And you talk about this innate wisdom that's inside of us, which I could not agree with more. That is we don't ever go out, find something, add it to us and then are made whole.

What we do is we go in on cover things that were there by reminders that are seemingly external to show us that it was always there in the beginning. And we do this, it's almost like a complicated game of hide and seek. And this is a big--

That's so well said.

You know what I mean?

The spiritual journey is not about addition, it's about subtraction.

It is, it's not about that I need this truth out there and I'm gonna add that to myself and then be complete. It's in the giving up of everything that's not real that I'm still in possession of.

Which is a lot harder if you think about it. Just think about it, if it were the other way around then everyone with the most resources, money and ability and talent would all be perfect, complete human beings who are happy all the time and no one else. And we see this all the time. We see people in the worst of circumstances showing the best of humanity, showing the best possible things. We know that that exists. So yeah, I mean, that's what it feels like a lot. And we, let me put it like this. We could probably talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about this stuff. I kind of want to cut it off for two reasons.

One is we're about to have similar conversations like this in a week, less than a week in New York which I'm super excited about. Man, I'm just super grateful to meet you too. I don't want to cut it off right this second. I'm just excited that we're having this conversation and you mentioned something else in your origin story which I always try to touch on whenever someone brings it up that another profound experience that happened to you was related to mushrooms. And I bring this up for a few reasons. One is 12-step as has been found out afterwards. The guy who founded it really did it with the aid of LSD.

And what that had done for him psychologically and spiritually gave him the template for it to do this. He didn't say this when he released 12-step because you want to say free yourself from addiction using what at the time was perceived as a very dangerous drug. But I'm curious how psychedelics have played a role in kind of your development and where they fit in and how you view them at this point.

Yeah, so first off going back to the founder of co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous of the 12-step movement was Bill Wilson, right? And so that happened in 1935, June 10th, 1935. He had his first essential meeting with this other guy named Dr. Bob which is that if you could have a whole show on that it's really like a universal phenomenon that should happen because never in recorded history have any alcoholics ever been able to do shit. I mean, before that you literally were just imprisoned or sentenced to death if you acted like a drunk asshole.

Yeah, yeah.

I researched it, it's really fascinating. There were a lot of really weird treatments. So in 1935 there was actually there was this sort of new thought movement in the United States specifically. You had Emmet Fox, you had James Allen, you had Napoleon Hill, you had Bill Wilson. All of these guys were sort of like not exactly Christians, more like scientific Christians. And so there was this whole movement. So that happened in 1935, but then in the 60s somehow Bill Wilson got involved with, I think it was with a psychiatrist. And actually what's interesting is David Hawkins was actually friends with Bill Wilson.

And I think the history is a little spotty but they definitely knew each other and Hawkins might have even been his psychiatrist.

Oh wow.

Or analyst at a certain point. And Hawkins also did a lot of experimenting with LSD in the early days. So it wasn't like a street drug and like something that you go take to go to a dead show. It was used in a clinical setting. And so he realized that what had enabled him and at that point, thousands of alcoholics across the world to become sober was a spiritual experience. And as described in William James, the variety of spiritual experiences of a book that I've had for 20 years and still can't read.

Me too, me too.

Yeah, that's one of those ones everyone always talks about and I act like I've read it, but I'm like, I've skimmed it.

Me too, me too.

I don't get it, it's too dense.

I'm so with you.

But Bill Wilson was a huge, that was a huge inspiration. William James was like his guy and he was really into Emmett Fox also. And so the LSD experiments, a lot of people have that kind of backwards that it's like he had some kind of like cheap shot at getting high and could still get away with it under the guys and he's sober. But I believe his intention was spiritual understanding and expansion. So that's that piece. But the guy died sober of infazema, which is interesting. He never could quit smoking and eventually killed him.

Well, that's so funny 'cause I always get the classic image of the AA meetings where people are outside smoking cigarettes.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, that's the thing. You know, I always say, yeah, you get sober, the monkey's off your back, but the circus is still in town. You know, it's like most of the switch addictions and then systematically, you know, I used to smoke cigarettes for 20 years, I quit. I don't know, eight years ago or whatever it was. I mean, I've quit so many habits like that because they just, they stop working. But anyway, back to, what was the question again? (laughing)

Oh, okay, so--

Be glad to psychedelic in your life.

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. See, that's what happens when you do a lot of them. Now here's the thing, I, because the reason that I was doing psychedelics, which was not really ecstasy, more so mushrooms, I used to sell mushrooms out of my apartment in Hollywood behind the Chinese theater, I'd buy 'em in five pound pockets.

I'm familiar with the shit load of mushrooms.

Copious amounts of mushrooms and I sold weed. But so I had a constant supply of shrimps and I did a lot of LSD starting in high school. Like I said, the first time I took it was in school and Aspen in high school, I would have been 16.

I got to beat butt, I was 15. (laughing)

So--

Not.

When did you lose your virginity?

15.

Oh.

It was a big year.

Oh, it's fun.

It was a big fucking year, man.

16, I did acid and got lazy.

Me too, yeah, it always happens.

You realize, I met my girlfriend who I, on acid, the first time I did acid in Boston at the school, I eventually graduated from, it was on a five-week program that was, yeah, they're linked, I think, in some way.

Interesting, yeah. Maybe you'll lose some of your inhibitions and insecurities as a teenage boy. But anyway, really my intention, I mean, if I'm honest with myself with psychedelics was just a party and get fucking hot.

Yeah, that's always interesting to me.

But I have to say that first time that I took acid was definitely a profound spiritual experience by accident, even though I was on a bunch of other drugs and was drunk off my acid, a keg or party. I do have an absolute clear recollection of realizing how small and insignificant I as one living being am on the planet. And it was almost like I was able to zoom out into space and pinpoint myself in that little town in Colorado at that party on the porch of that house. And I saw like, oh fuck, this doesn't mean anything. Not in the negative, it's not in a negative sense of falling into the void and becoming suicidal.

None of this means anything, but just like, oh my God, me and my little problems and my life and everything that I think is so fucking important is so insignificant and it was actually a relief. And that actually still, that realization still rests within me, but I still have some understanding that the melodrama of this human experience is ultimately fucking meaningless in the most positive sense. And this is just like a short ride in this meat suit for a couple minutes, blip, and then it's done. And you probably come back and pop in a few more meat suits until you've accomplished your goal here.

So that was like my main first psychedelic understanding. And then there were also, it sounds funny 'cause I was just partying, but I used to go see the dead a lot. And I of course would like fry balls at every dead show. You weren't totally sober at people that counts up weird.

But I did also have many spiritual experiences that had to do with being in connection to other people because that drug, because you lose the inhibitions and it does sort of detach you from your ego in a way that I was able to have this unconditional love experience with large groups of people within that setting. And the music sort of was a vehicle by which we all were achieving that level of consciousness. That said, in my own experience, nothing has been as profound as the moments of spiritual understanding in which I've been stone cold sober and have just hit new levels of humility and teachability and self-love and self-compassion.

And I mean, I've had experiences where like, dude, it feels like a spaceship landed in the room and is like buzzing energy through my chest. And I'm sober as a fucking judge. So I think again, all roads lead to the peak, but as my meditation teacher, Jeff Cobers said on my show the other day, he said, doing it on the natch and I'm paraphrasing, doing it on the, we all get to the top of the mountain. It might be via ayahuasca. It might be through 30 years of meditation. We all get to the top of the mountain, but some of us learn to climb. And so the route I'm taking, which is not to say other routes are wrong, but I'm fucking learning how to climb, you know?

And I might be able to get away with taking ayahuasca or some plant medicine or something. I've done Campbell Frog, which is fucking, doesn't get you high at all unfortunately, but it has a definite effect on your consciousness for a minute there. So I've done some trippy stuff, but it's like, I don't know, I just feel, I feel like my journey is more the old school, well earned, you know, like steady path that's just climbing little by little, rather than having like a huge spike of consciousness in a way that's from smoking DMT coming back down and still going, well shit, I still have to deal with the divorce, my job, the IRS, whatever, it's like you're gonna come back down and still be on the earthly plane.

So while it's fun to maybe go on a vacation and take a glimpse, this is just for me again. If other people find that to be useful, which many have, then I think that's awesome. And I absolutely advocate for that.

But psychedelics for me are just like, it's like someone opening the door to a room and you see this light shining out and you're like, ah, and you get to poke your head through, but you don't really get to fucking live there.

So do you know the story of Ramdas giving his grew LSD back in the '60s? Yeah, he did it twice, you know he did it twice.

Yeah, I love Ramdas after all that shit of all those years of taking, I mean drugs I've never even heard of, you know, this peyote journeys and everything he's done. I mean, at the end of the day, he kind of gave up on all that and was like, yeah, it's just, it's about the direct path to God. Like you just got to fucking weather the storm and you know, that's essentially where he ended up. But please tell the story for my Instagram and for your show, it's fucking profound in terms of the psychedelic experience.

It is.

By which to get to God.

And it underscores what you're saying. And there's also a story that I've heard that where his grew eventually described, and you'll hear why after I tell the story that he said that taking psychedelics is like, you go get to hang out with Jesus for a little bit. But if you can do it through selfless service, unconditional love, feeding people, helping people, you get to hang out with Jesus all the time. That's how he would describe it. So here's the story. So back in the late '60s, Ramdas, who was then known as Richard Alpert, had gone to India to meet this guru. He had heard these stories, he was looking just for people in general, and he went and he found some people who eventually found this guru, who kind of blew his mind through some, he knew something that he shouldn't know.

And so this Ramdas was a preeminent Harvard psychologist, it tripped him out, he was going through conspiracy theories, how could this guy know this? He eventually accepted him as a guru, and this guy named Krolli Baba, also known as Maharaji, was unconventional. He didn't take, you know, he didn't have a course for you to go through, a teaching, he taught in like liver.

There's no sales funnel at all.

Yeah, there's no sales funnel at all.

There's no sales funnel, and he fucked with people. That was like his famous thing to do, like when he first met Ramdas, he said, you know, you need to give me your car and all your money. 'Cause he knew that that's what Ramdas was insecure about, he was like, oh, like, he's gonna, you know, it's a huck star, he just wants my stuff, so he was fucking with him. So anyway, he has this acid with him, because this is someone who's with best friends with Timothy Leary, they had Millbrook, which is not too far from me, where they were just doing copious amounts of LSD, stupid amounts of LSD, like way too much for anyone to do.

Anyway, so he always had this. And he had Aussly acid. And Aussly acid was some of the best acid ever made. Shoot, very strong, this was flooded at dead concerts, that and Sunshine were like, that was it. So he had a bunch of tabs with him, and he was with his guru, named Crowley Baba one day, and named Crowley Baba says to him, hey, do you have something with you? And he's like, yeah, how you doing? And he's like, can I take it? And he's like, yeah, but it's, you know, it's really strong. I don't know, like if it's something you really want to do, he's like, nah, I'll take it. And so he's like a little disturbed and like, you know, like freaked out, and you know, he doesn't really know exactly what's going on.

So he gives him the three tabs, each one's 300 mics of acid. Nope, acid, that's a very, very heavy psychedelic dose. So he grabs him, throws him in his mouth, and he is like, just like, all right, you know, what's going on, let me look around, is anyone going on, he turns around, looks back, nothing happens. That's it, that's the story. Number one, that's the first time he gave him acid. So he's like, okay, that's weird. You know, I gave him this really strong acid, but he always had doubts. He was always like, did I, did he take it? Like I didn't actually see him take it. Maybe he like, palmed it.

You know, he's a, he has all these psychic tricks. Maybe he did some shit. So he's like, well, that's weird. So he goes back, like years later, he's not doing a ton of acid, but happens to have some. And named Crowley Obama goes to him when he's alone, and he's like, you have some more of that, that stuff. And he's like, yeah, I do. And he goes, you didn't think I took it last night. And he's like, no, like honestly, I don't, I'm not sure. Like I don't know. So he goes, okay. And he goes, you have more. And he's like, yeah. So he's four this time. So he's 1,200 micrograms with some of the strongest acid.

It's just too much. And he gives them to them. And one by one, he takes them and puts them in his mouth. Like, and swallows him and goes like, ah. So now at this point, like Rumbus is a little bit freaked out 'cause he's like, I know this guy just took 1,200 micrograms of acid, like what if he's fucked up? Like what if I ruin him? What if like all these people are here? And this is this great being. And I just like blew his mind. And now it's like, so he's like turning around and he looks for help just in case he needs it. And he turns back around. And named Crowley Bob is like, ah, he's like spazzing out, convulsing, eyes rolling back in his head.

And he's like, oh shit. Oh my God. Like my worst fear is coming true. I fucked this dude up. This is my guru. What's going on? So he turns around and looks for help again, comes back. And named Crowley Bob is fine, totally fine, 100% fine, not at all. And he's like laughing and smiling and Rumbus is like, what's going on? And he's like, listen, here's what this is. It's like, this used to be, Yogis used to use this medicine way back in the day. He's like, I recommend using it in a cool climate at a high altitude. That was like his only advice. And he's like, the thing is, is like when you actually are like in reality and experience what is, this will have no effect whatsoever.

And at this point, Rumbus had given LSD to various, he went to India to give LSD to mystics. So they could tell him what this is if it had any relationship because they were having these spontaneous religious experience. So this, a very funny story relating to this involving Rumbus is that story, for good reason, always stuck with me. Because it really is showing you the ultimate nature of reality and that these substances or chemicals that we may be ingesting are really like a complicated game we're playing with ourselves. And we may think it's like a thing, but really it's a placebo. So I would always tell people this whenever we took mushrooms or acid, which is like a bizarre thing to tell someone as they're tripping balls on one of these things, I tell this story almost every time I was with people taking it.

Long story short, years later, I started working with Lovesurve Remember, Rumbus' Foundation. This is how I got my career in digital marketing. And a year, a year and a half after working with them, it basically came out that, that story that I had been telling. I didn't know it was named Karoli Baba, but that person was named Karoli Baba. And it set off this whole string of memories at various points in my life that I had been connected in this very weird way. But I bring it up because that story always is held up in my mind as something that really shows us that whatever we're looking for out there, whatever we think it is, whether it's psychedelics, whether it's anything, it really is us inside resonating with that thing.

That's what you were saying before. Like it is within us, that's what the Buddha said, that's what Jesus said, that's what every mystic we would look at and said, "They figured some shit out," says. And that to me is why I always try to bring up psychedelics. And I'm with you just to be clear. My last psychedelic experience on a macro dose was 13 years ago. And I took LSD, didn't stop tripping for three months. It had left my system after 24 hours, but that was a mystical experience that I stayed in for three months. One of the most profound things in my life, but it had nothing to do with psychedelics per se.

It was this other stuff that we can come in contact with, which is why I love you reminding people that you are learning the climb. You don't have to go do it. Iowa says very popular right now. I know a lot of people do it. I've never done it. I've never smoked DMT. For the same reason that you just mentioned, I don't love the idea of getting blasted off into upper realms of space only to come crashing back down. I wanna climb up slowly and know how I got there. So when I get to the top, I can say, "Hey guys, this is how I got there." And just to put a pin on this part of it, that's what you're doing, man.

And that's why it's so fucking cool. And I'm just really happy that we got to connect like this and we're gonna be seeing each other, man.

Well, here's the thing with that too. And I also wanna really emphasize just from my perspective that my path is just my path. And I obviously have no opinion or vested interest in dictating anyone else, whether or not they should do psychedelics. I actually would go so far as to say, I think every human being should like trip their fucking ass off a couple times at some point. I mean, like if you haven't taken acid, you really are missing like a portal into another dimension of reality that I think can be profoundly enlightening. But I just, for me personally based on my own experience, it isn't the path that really has longevity.

It's like I said, just it's a peak at what's possible. But the story that you told about Ramdas, which I just love and I love his podcast. I love his work. I mean, he's just fantastic for anyone listening to his podcast. I mean, it's not like, you know, it's most of its old recordings of him.

Yeah, it's recording.

But it's just fantastic work. And he's so relatable and so funny. He's just such a sweetheart. You know, I just love his approach. But going back to David Hawkins, the way David Hawkins, who was also a really bad drug addict in alcoholic and by the time he died, I think it was over 55 years or something, in his 80s when he died, hence the relationship with Bill Wilson and all that. But the way Hawkins, as a practicing psychiatrist, one of the top ones in the country who had a practice for 50 years, how he contextualized addictions and like quote unquote, "getting high" is that when you get high on any substance, it's actually, it's sort of a misnomer that you get high.

What happens is, is that different substances block off the lower. - Dampen, they dampen, yeah.

Yeah, they block off the lower states of consciousness from which you're suffering, which could be just, you could say like the ego state in general and all of the manifestations of that. Jealousy, the racing mind, envy, anger, fear, anxiety, you know, painful memories, PTSD, whatever is your, your negative trip that when you get high, it actually just, it suppresses those lower states of consciousness and you actually become the way that you are naturally, you know? And it's sort of, you can think about that. Like when you take shrooms, like that's how you kind of feel when you're really on point.

Your filters get, yeah. - Yeah, exactly. And then, but the sort of the downside of the chemical way to God is that when those things wear off, then the things that you are repressing or suppressing tend to come back, you know? So you might have had a realization, but it doesn't necessarily like make you not resentful at your uncle or something that stole all your family's money or whatever your trip is, you know?

The contemporary block it, right?

Yeah, it's like, and I really related to that because I'm like, oh yeah, actually, when I got high, I wasn't high, I just, I felt actually normal when I was really high and when I was sober, I felt I was in a lot of pain, you know? And the whole process of like getting sober and being on a spiritual path has been like learning how to weather the storm of the human experience and walking through pain. You know, this was really a lot of Marianne Williamson's last book. It was called "Tears to Triumph," I believe. And it's, a lot of it's about, you know, the over-prescription of psychiatric drugs and things like that.

And I actually have a show coming out Tuesday with Dr. Kelly Brogan where she talks about that same sort of concept and this phenomenon that we have in our culture now, is that we're also afraid of having the human experience and feeling the heartbreak and feeling the tears and feeling the rage and expressing that and processing that in a healthy way that I think many of us use, you know, even the psychedelic spiritual experience is an escape from having to go and do that work, you know?

That's...

It's like, so you're gonna come down, you still gotta come back and like work through your shit, man, you know?

That's the truth, right?

That's still gotta go to therapy, you still gotta like get a spiritual teacher, a guide or a number of them, you know, you still need that human connection. None of us can just trip out on an island and sort of work through all that shit. Based on my experience, so...

It's the same, well, maybe some people can, but it's this fantasy that some of us have or some people have when they get into Eastern philosophies or some other thing where they could maybe go to the cave and become a monk or go to the Himalayas and you've just meditate for it. Like, that's, if you're born in this country, in the West, if you're listening to this podcast, most likely, like you're there for a reason. Like, it's not to leave that and go issue everything and that's not really what asceticism was about. A asceticism was about realizing who you are truly and letting go the things that weren't helping you get there.

And if you going and taking psychedelics in Peru or at your local shaman or whatever, is just another artifice that you're building up that ultimately needs to be gotten away with, it's worth investigating before investing the time doing it because I mean, that's the truth. That's where we started, man. Like, once you get on this path, you are gonna be confronted with your shit every possible way and maybe it's all your symbolic mythological figures and a ceremony. Maybe that's one part of it, but like, it's still all gonna be there when you come back down. And so it does, you know, not necessarily say that it's better, but it does maybe show the value of doing it clear-headed and recognizing like, none of the magic is lost by that.

None of it. In fact, you're facing reality. This book I mentioned cutting through spiritual materialism, that's essentially his advice. It's like, just be normal. Like, there's a famous Zen saying, right? It's first rivers are rivers and mountains are mountains. Then rivers aren't rivers and mountains aren't mountains and finally rivers are just rivers and mountains are mountains. That's basically the metaphysical process. It's a Zen colon. And it underscores what we're talking about. Dude, here's the thing. I wanna wrap this up. I have three questions. I don't want to, but I'm going to.

Hey, dude, can I say one more thing?

Yes, of course, of course.

Which could be another 45 minutes to do it, but I just like, like, I got how you have those little synapses that happen when someone's talking. Just in relate, so aside from the psychedelic thing, in terms of the life of the renunciate. Like, you go on your spiritual path. You're like, all right, I gotta get rid of my computer, my BMW, I gotta stop getting laid. Like, I gotta go live in a cave and all that. It's interesting, when I first, the first time I entered, one of two times I interviewed John Gray, who everyone knows as the author of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and is really like a relationship expert.

He's actually a really spiritual guy. And he studied under the Maharishi for, I think like 10 years and was his personal assistant. He was celoped, I think, for nine years. He also was good friends with Baba Muktananda, which is like the saint I was ever in.

Yes, I remember hearing, yeah.

So, I gotta record him again, but it was either before, after the recording part of my show, we were talking about all the gurus. And to me, like, that was always my ultimate goal. Like, oh man, I gotta be like the Maharishi or Muktananda, and give up all my worldly possessions, and like, you know, go off and live in the woods, and just live this, you know, this monastic lifestyle. And we were talking about those guys because John had, like, backstage passes to those gurus, and he was telling me how specifically on Maharishi and Muktananda had this, like, rivalry, this guru rivalry, and there was all this money involved and the corporations involved and all this stuff.

And so it was just interesting. He's like, yeah, even enlightened beings, like those guys definitely were. They could buy locates, they could manifest the booty out of their palm and shit. I mean, all that stuff is very real, in certain cases, but they still were human. And his summary of that experience and why he opted to stay in the world, as he said, actually, those guys looked at reach that level of consciousness, and then they leave, and renounce their worldly life are actually, it's actually an act of selfishness, that they're not still engaged in working in a company and being involved in their day-to-day life.

They abandon their kids and stuff, and they just go out to be with God. He's like, I don't think that's the path you actually want, Luke. He's like, have your enlightenment be, and this was just a bro, you know, mentor to mentee, kind of off the air moment. Something to the effect, like, the work that you're doing is the real work, and to give up all your shit and go live in Sedona and, like, play with fucking crystals out in the desert, is actually not doing yourself in your own evolution, much of a service. And then it's really about learning how to operate within the world, in the spiritual dimension.

That's like, yeah, I was like, ah, shit. I mean, it was almost like, pop my balloon a little bit. Yeah, it's a little bit of a bummer, right. I thought the ultimate goal is to reach a level of enlightenment, where you don't give a shit about having a podcast, or having a wife, or any of this shit. You just, like, are with God, and you're just in bliss all the time. And he's like, nah, that's actually, like, a pretty lame route. I was like, wow, I never thought of it that way, you know. That's rivers are rivers in mountains and mountains, are again, and it's interesting because those things can be held at the same time.

We're living in a magical, manifested, illusory dream world, but we're also here. We have names, we have identities, we have zip codes, we have responsibilities, we have families, relationships. And walking that line, holding both of those things, I think that's the trick. And the one thing I'll point out too, with you is you've walked a bit of the left-hand path, right? You've walked the agoric path a little bit. You have gone deep into living and suffering to gain those truths, and that's where, like, the real fires, you know, that's where you forge yourself. That's what's done, and I don't want that to be lost at all.

And I think that's an important thing. And it's not that everyone has to have the deepest level and suffering to spare, although I will say the people who do tend to come out with quite a bit, but that that is part of the process. When shitty things, shitty things and quotes happen to you to not look at it like the universe is against you, but it's an opportunity to look and see what's going on. And I heard you say it on your podcast. Sometimes it takes two weeks, two years, two decades, whatever it is, you'll eventually look back and be grateful for it if things are going well. So I end with three questions, and then one question at the end.

Dude, I just got to say, I'm really looking forward to meeting you next week. It's going to be a fun time. So questions, what is your favorite color?

That's funny. Instantly without hesitating what comes to mind is black, but I had a spiritual teacher once, and I wore black all the time, and he asked me that same question. I go, my favorite color is black, and he would always say, "Luke, that's not a color. "That's an absolute color."

It is.

I was like, "Well, white. "I like white." You know, Kundalini Yoga, why? He's like, "No, that's not a color." I mean, I'd have to say, I'd have to say black. I really like throwing things. I always have a black phone, black clothes. Like, I don't paint my apartment black, but I like, I guess, I like space and black to me, not outer space, but just I like room.

No, I get it.

Spaciousness and black has this sort of sense of void to it. It's very empty, and I think that's why it appeals to me. And plus, I was just like a goth kid in high school and I was off. (laughs)

It's awesome, man. What is your favorite number?

Favorite number seven, cool.

What's your favorite animal?

Dogs.

Very cool, which has a lesson in it. I used to, I literally used to say this, I hate dogs.

Really?

'Cause I had some sort of karmic relationship to work out with them, and as a kid, I got bit on the number of kids.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pretty dramatically, and I used to always just get chased and harassed by dogs on my bike, and just dogs in me did not mix, and then a few years ago, I was in a relationship with a girl for about five years, and we lived together, and she just begged me to get her a dog, and it took her about three years to wear me down, and we finally did get this little puppy on his name is Yoji, and she's now my business partner, and thankfully, I still have Yoji in my life, you know, when I go to work some days, but I fell in love with that dog, dude, and I, it's like, that was a spiritual experience, and I don't have one still, 'cause I'm still a little too selfish to deal with that responsibility, and I accept that for now, but now when I see a dog, it's like, oh my God, dude, unless it's like a mean pit bull, or a rottweiler, the dog's did a bit me historically, I still have a little trauma with them, but like a cute, friendly dog, I'm just like, oh my God, I just wanna squeeze the life out of them, I love them so much, and they're just like, I guess they've been hanging around humans so much, they've taken on a certain level of consciousness, you know, so yeah, dogs would be my favorite.

There's a famous story, I think it's in the Marbarata, or one of the epics, the Bhagavad Gita Marbarata, or what I'm like, so what it is is there's a king, or there's a saint, or someone, and he dies, and he's going into heaven, or like this paradise realm, and he's with his dog, and they won't let his dog in, and he's like, no, I'm good, I'm not gonna go, like he's like with the dog, and it's like, that shows the connection, and that's back, and you know, six, seven thousand years ago's, they're writing about that, so yeah, it's deep. Last question, what's a practical tip that has helped you in your life that you could share with people listening?

Oh man, that's tough, you know, 'cause there's so many, there's so many things on the physiological level that have helped me so much of just getting my meat suit in tune and keeping it in tune so that my consciousness can go explore the world in a way that's advantageous to its evolution, but if I had to pick one thing that's like a game changer, I mean, we've really covered it, but that is, don't believe what you think. Like always question the thoughts and the information that are being projected from one's own mind. Without that inquiry, you're gonna suffer, and the moment that we can begin to just step back for a second and say, okay, that thought that I just had that I'm so sure of, that that person's doing it to me or whatever, let's just say that that's true in a really step angle, but can I really, this is Byron Katie's stuff, you know, can I really, really know that the thought I'm having is true?

And if you dive deep enough on most thoughts that are harmful to your own self-psychologically, you're fine that they're actually fallacies, you know? If you have that practice of inquiry, and this is what I do all the time, it's like my mind comes up with an idea and I have to really look at it, okay, is that really true?

Yeah.

You know, they don't respect me, let's just say that. Okay, I went to this meeting and everyone's like, kind of chuckling and no one respects me. Is that really true? No one respects me? Okay, maybe not no one. What about the people present in that meeting? None of them respect me, is that really true? Maybe they were just all being playful that day and having some fun. And my mind told me that they were attacking me or, you know, trying to devalue me in some way. But if you don't question your mind and you believe the shit that comes out of it, you're gonna have a tough life.

Oh boy, ain't that the truth. Luke, this has been amazing. I'm glad we got a chance to do this. And, you know, I'll let you know when this comes out and everything, but this has been just an absolute pleasure.

For me too. Yeah, I'm so stoked to do this before we actually get to meet next week.

Yeah, it's gonna be really fun. Cool dude. Thank you so much, I hope you feel a little bit better too, man.

You know, I feel like a million times better just having some great human connection with you. So thank you for-- - For the moment. Cool.

Thank you for the spiritual healing today. (laughing)

It's my pleasure, dude. All right, I'll see you around.

All right, peace. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Big thank you to Luke for coming on and doing this. Also, thanks to Anna, Sa, Kara, Julia, Ryan, all of the people who have helped put together well-being in the modern age. This is gonna be the last podcast before it happens. I'm really happy with the way everything has turned out. It's really gonna be a great time. Stay tuned for other live events. There'll also be a live stream of this event in case you can't make it in person. Stay tuned for that. You can do that by joining the Synchronicity community, the MindPod network community, put your email in. You get emails that aren't annoying. We'll tune you into cool stuff from time to time.

That's it. Big thank you to Patrick Nemchik, a patron who contributes a very nice amount to everyone that allows this show to do certain things like pay for web hosting and podcast hosting, and she's just an awesome guy. So big thank you, Patrick. If you want, subscribe, rate, and review. I highly encourage you to do that. It helps the show, and it's free. That's nice. That's pretty cool. Gotta have a lot of other awesome guests coming up. I have so many things scheduled. It's ridiculous. I'm looking forward to putting a little more time and effort into the podcast in the coming weeks, and you will see what that means soon.

So thank you for listening and have a great day.