Astral Sex Orgies, Polyamory + Subverting Paradigms with Sean Dunne and Cass Greener | 102

[Music] We're holding space, you know, kind of like monks, you know, who are devoting their life to meditation. Us devoting our life to having fun and not being scared and kind of subverting dominant paradigms by just making the other thing look cooler. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to episode 102 of synchronicity. My guests this week, my guests, ssss, ssss, ssss, ssss, ssss, ssss, ssss. My guests this week are Sean Dunn and Cass Greener. They run a podcast called Barry Ape.

This is their third appearance. This is like lofty places to be. Third, not a lot of people. People have been here three times. I love Sean and Cass. I go into the city, New York City, New York City, New York City. Does anyone-- that's a pace, a pace pecante commercial. Anyway, this intro has gotten off to a great start. Whenever I go into the city, I try to see Sean and Cass because they're awesome and they're fun to hang out with. And we usually have really good conversations. And this was one of those times when I was like, hey, let's record this. And so we recorded it. And also, it's fun recording with Sean and Cass because they give you these space age, super advanced telemarketer headphones.

But they're really nice and comfortable. So you don't have your hands free. It's pretty awesome. So this conversation was a real blast to have. Also, really, always we go pretty deep with these things. And this one centers around polyamory, which is not a topic. I'm well versed in. I famously have said to Alexis, and we've spoken about this, that we think polyamorous relationships are essentially impossible, and someone or someone inevitably gets hurt. That said, that happens with a lot of relationships that aren't polyamorous. So I don't know how much sense that made when I said that. But my point is this is in speaking with Sean and Cass about what was going on with their relationship, which they just entered into a polyamorous relationship.

For those who aren't up on the lingo, that's more than two people in an intimate relationship. So it's a thing they've been doing. And this whole conversation, you could pick it up on my vocal cues, but I'm like, I'm scoping out the situation in this. I'm trying to really see if they're saying this. Is this Sean just doing what he wants to be doing? Is Cass really OK with this? Is she trepidatious? And I was really impressed with how they both seemed to have consciously made a decision to do this. And it's not just some like willy-nilly thing. So I thought that was really cool. So I kept asking them questions about it.

And we jump around here. And I'm not going to give the whole thing away. But at one point, I bring up some sexual impropriety claims relating to gurus or spiritual teachers, especially in the West. And this is like the oldest story since teachers have been coming over here, lineage holders, and various Eastern traditions. There's always tales of sexual impropriety amongst those teachers and their students or things that are going on. And this continues to this day. It's literally if you just dig a little bit below the surface in anything you like. And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer with this.

This stuff exists. And I think it's a good thing to look at and investigate and understand. So something recently happened with one of my favorite authors and teachers of Tibetan Buddhism. I've never studied with him. I've listened to him a few times. And I read his book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. So Gil Rinpoche got in huge amounts of trouble for apparently the numerous times. This was the latest in a long succession of being accused of sexual impropriety with students. I don't know the degree of it. It was actually pretty difficult to ascertain. And I think that's probably for the victim's privacy as well.

But apparently this has been going on. I didn't know about it, and I found out about it. The Dalai Lama, I guess, rebuked him. Other people in the community, and he was originally going to resign his post in the Rigpa tradition. That's his school lineage where he was coming from. And then people were like, nah, that's not good enough. He needs to be out of this thing. And so he did that. And it brings up this question. What is going on? What do we do-- and this is the broader question. It doesn't even have to be the spirituality. What do we do when someone we idolize does something bad wrong? This is the constant, probably, dance that someone who's an avid Donald Trump supporter.

And it's OK to be one. I'm not chastising you if you are. I have questions, but I'm not chastising the dance you have to do. How do you skirt around some of these objectively? That's not a nice thing to do. How do you deal with the impact on the other stuff that they do, so whether this is a musician who does something bad or an actor or whatever it is. Someone you really like and admire, they do something bad, especially when it's something really bad. Sexual impropriety and misconduct. That's not a little bad thing. That's like, no, no, no, no, really, really bad. So what do you do? And so I think about this a lot of times because this happens.

And I always give the-- this is not a Zen coin. But what if Hitler made amazing music? This is a mind fuck of a question. Objectively, if you just heard it and didn't know Hitler made it and it was incredible, you would like it, right? You'd be like, god, this is beautiful. And then if you found out it's Hitler, do you immediately have to discount the experience of finding the music beautiful? That's just a-- it's a question. I'm not-- no way endorsing Hitler. He probably would suck as a musician. And the truth is, is most of these times you can't reach it. But anyway, it happens. So so Gil Rinpoche, because he kind of made beautiful music and the idea of how he expounded and some of these concepts.

So he knows, and it's a wisdom holder. And it's all these things, but he's doing these just culturally and objectively wrong things. So how do we process that? Do we throw the baby out with the bathwater and just say, oh, my god, it's a betting book of living and dying. This guy's a hookster. It means nothing. It's just a fairy tale. That, to me, is probably not the right approach. And I don't have a firm answer on this, but it's the same thing. If a musician makes music, I really like. And then it does something really, even a racist, sexist, classist, horrible thing. I probably don't support that person financially anymore, but do I stop enjoying their music wholesale?

No, it has an impact. It's like-- here's a good example-- Kramer from Seinfeld. Here's a deal. Like Kramer did some super racist stuff. He reacted to people in public who said some stuff to him, Michael Richards. And I didn't really fuck with him for a few years. I watched Seinfeld reruns all the time, and I laughed at Kramer. Do you know what I mean? It's that kind of thing. And I know this isn't like a hard answer, but anyway, this came up in here, and I wanted to kind of-- I've been thinking about this happen a couple of months ago with Silkyo Rinpoche. And you see a huge variety of discourse around the subject.

Some people are just feeling, no, fuck the dude. Nothing valuable there. What a piece of shit, no grit. And then people are like, no, there's stuff there that you actually have to parse through. Even if someone does something horrible, if they've accumulated certain knowledge or things that they're able to share and benefit other people, it's not an isolated situation. Now, I also think this kind of touches on the realm of forgiveness, but typically when someone does something pretty awful, immediate forgiveness and mass is really difficult. So let's acknowledge that it's not like someone does some fucking punches in your face.

You go, I forgive you. It's like, yeah, maybe Jesus. Jesus can do that. But that's not the typical reaction. So nor should it be, just to be clear. That's not a healthy thing to do most of the time. OK, got sidetracked there. I don't know what's going on. This podcast is awesome. It's in a week in New York City at Noia House, well-being in the modern age. But that's, if you can hear in the background, that's my dog, Macio, going nuts. I think you can hear that. He's pretty loud. But well-being in the modern age, tickets are available, witmalive.com. I've been speaking over the past two to three weeks with almost all of the panelists at this point.

And I didn't know, I think, about half of them. Now I know almost all of them. I am so excited for this event. I know I've been talking about ticket sales are coming in, not worried about it. Now it's kind of at the point if you want to go grab a ticket because each day we're kind of scaling up there. So if you're in New York City, go check it out, witmalive.com. That's an acronym for well-being in the modern age. W-I-T-M-A Live.com. Go check it out. If you use the code S-Y-N-C, short for sync in all caps, at checkout, that's $10 off. I'll also have a link on this podcast episode. So whatever app you're using, it'll be there and also on the podcast page at syncpodcast.com.

If you just click through there, it'll automatically apply that discount, so you don't have to remember what it is. Anyway, it's going to be really fun and cool. We've locked down some more amazing music and speakers. I'm really excited for it. I can feel now we're close enough to the event. I can actually feel it happening. And I'm just really excited to meet a lot of you and see a lot of you and talk with a lot of you. OK, that's it. I know there's probably a million other things I want to hear more about, but I'm not going to do it. I'm going to get right to this episode. I say get right to this episode after talking for 10 minutes straight.

So take that for what it's worth. Without further ado, here is Sean, Don, and Cass. Great. [MUSIC PLAYING] I think for the most part, we don't get-- we don't really tend to get freaked out. We actually did get freaked out kind of recently. We went to this event in New York City, where everyone would get together and we're going to talk about sex. And this guy is going to facilitate these conversation about sex. And we went there. And the second you get off the elevator to go into this event, some guy takes your picture. And I'm like, yo, IR is VP for a sex event that I don't even know what it is.

And the first thing is someone's taking our picture. And we get in there. And Cass starts looking around at the type of people that were there. And we're like, let's get the fuck out of here. What was it like? That sounds so judgmental. No, no, no, no, no. We were really high. We were really high. It sounds judgmental, but I said that's why I asked question, what were they like? Yeah. Why don't you describe this situation? Well, I think first, I think you accurately, I'm like, I don't want to be on your fucking Facebook page. What am I doing here? I'm not here to be part of promoting-- Well, yeah, it's not discrete.

Yeah, that wasn't cool. That part of it wasn't cool. But you looked around and it was varying levels of feel free to do it. I know, that's what I'm doing. You know, there's just varying levels of like-- I don't know, it just was other people like us. They kind of looked like us. The first question that the host asks is like, raise your hand if you have a fantasy you've fulfilled and have the people raise their hand. And he says, let's split the room like that. And he puts the people that have had fantasies fulfilled on one side and the other side, not. So we're on the side of the room where people have had their fantasies.

Of course. Of course, we do a lot of crazy stuff. And I don't know, we don't have to get into it, but-- I mean, I would put you objectively in that case. Yeah, yeah. So you know, I didn't want to necessarily say anything, but he starts pointing at people. He's like, OK, well, what's yours? And it's the most vanilla thing ever. Like the first thing was a guy was like, I made love to a folk record. No. Yeah. And I'm like, how old are these people? R-H. So I'm like, in their mid-30s, early 30s. How do you find out about this, can I? A person of a friend of ours who's like a PR guy for this event was like, hey, come check it out.

OK. I was like, I don't even want to know what it is. We just try interesting things. Cool. And so this guy's like, oh, yeah, I made love to a folk record. And another person's like, I want to have sex with an overweight woman. And I was like, whoa, this is really vanilla crowd. And so Cass and I obviously weren't in position to really talk about anything. I do not want to be the person in there that is like, hey, get into polyamory, have three sims. That's the last thing. We didn't want to necessarily be those people. So you didn't want to be too liberal. Well, yeah, once I realized like, we're going for our PhD in this shit and pushing the limits.

And this was like a fucking elementary school class. And I was cornered there for two hours. And it was just very strange. And I started this by saying, there's rarely a situation that intimidates us, rarely or people that do. It's so interesting because yours wasn't that it was too deep-end for you. It's not like we're in the deep end too much, which is where most people's fears would be. They said, I can stand in this shit in this sauce. This isn't funny. It's too boring. That's so funny. It was too boring. There was nothing that was going to expand our consciousness there, other than we find vanilla stuff to be boring.

Right. Well, I'm very tempted to give a-- even though I didn't enjoy it-- counter-experience. How long did you guys end up saying for? The whole thing. Oh, you did. What else did they do? Well, I mean, it was only an hour or something. Well, yeah, maybe. They're getting into like-- What was your experience then? Oh, my experience was horrible. I hated it. I'm like, I'm a very private person. I am comfortable talking about sex. I'd probably be even comfortable talking about sex in front of however many people are listening to this. Oh, we talk about sex on our podcast all the time. Yeah, sex is OK.

I'm not up going for my PhD, but we'll say I'm at least in college. You know what I mean? But I don't feel-- I felt like I wasn't doing it for me. I felt like I was doing it. Or even for the other people, I didn't-- I felt like I was doing it for him. And I was like-- The host. And I'm like, I'm not-- So that's what I thought. Yeah, it was a jag-off. OK, so this is what I thought you were originally going to say, but then you were like, OK, it was just too benign. But you probably picked up that he was somewhat-- What it reminded me of is like the-- sometimes have you read this book, "Journey's Out of the Body?"

Dr. Robert Morrell? No. Oh, you guys would like it. It's really cool. It was this guy in Virginia, like a doctor back in the '70s, I think, and he started astral projecting by accident. And he developed what most people now knows the roll-out technique, which is where you lay down and try to roll out of your body, and you do it, and it started having to him a lot. And he wrote a book called "Journey's Out of the Body," where he went to all these different-- but scientific empirically, obviously criticized. Now, what's his name, Moody? Dr. Raymond Moody references him a bunch. But he describes going through all these astral worlds.

And one of the things that starts to happen to him-- and a lot of people describe this when they begin to lose a dream-- is that there's these sex orgies that, as soon as you pop pop out of your thing, it's like there's these swarms of people just fucking-- just like all types of shit that you could ever see. And it's described not as a bad thing or a good thing, but at least in the book, he's like, yeah, that's something you can do. But usually, it's just one little thing. There's a whole lot more past it. So the reason I bring it up is a lot of these sex things. And I always wondered this for-- this whole sex stuff is very interesting.

People like Osho, who was known to have a sex cold-- I don't really know that much about Osho. What I do know-- and I know we have friends and a lot of people who really love Osho, I don't really fuck with him. I just don't know enough about the whole situation I never delved deep enough. But I know he had a lot of cars and shit, which I'd never really got. I was like, why are there so many cars? I never get that with any of these people. Like, how are you becoming rich off this? So that's a whole other thing, like the guru. And I think it's pretty easy. Like, if you're coming from like an Eastern tradition, you're probably around like a monastic tradition.

You're around a lot of dudes, like sweaty dudes. Probably don't smell good. Then you come to the West. And all of a sudden, there's young Western girls. And European girls just being like, I love you. You've taught me the true nature of my mind. Like, I get it. You're a human too. Because this just happened. You guys know-- In India. So, you all, Rinpo check. Do you know him? He wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Do you know that book? No. Fucking amazing. Another really great book that you guys would love. Cool. He got in trouble. Just recently, apparently for the many times of sexually impropriety with his students.

So now people are going crazy because he's convicted. Exactly. And this is a bit of a tangent from the stuff I was starting on. I want to get back to the Robert Monroe stuff. But the reason I get on this is a huge fucking thing. It creates this schism, right? The Dalai Lama kind of rebuked him this time. Some other people, they kind of made him resign. But they don't condemn him in the harshest terms. And some of them even use it as like, well, this is like crazy wisdom, like the Jogem Trungpa thing. Like this is just his way of teaching. This is how he does it. But I mean, I think what it really reminds me of with all this stuff is like you figure out what you want to do.

You guys knew when you went there vibe-wise that this dude, at least, who's running it, was kind of like a-- didn't know what was going on. I think he was trying to get lit. That's what I mean. So that's what I was talking about with the-- people were trying to lay him. I don't know what was going on. It's a sex-- it's like an energy thing that people can tap into. It's like a frequency. And if you're with it and if it's just sex, then go for it. But if you're buying into this whole persona that he's putting out, that he has some insight into it, that I think is where it gets tricky, which is how it relates to the guru stuff.

But yeah, these sex orgies, they would see-- he would fly over them. And I think sometimes he would partake. I don't know if he wrote that in the thing. He was like a thunder, but probably did. Who's not? So he flies over them, and he sees all these other realms and other things. So I kind of look at-- if you get in it-- and I've heard stories of people-- not distant people, people I know who go to India and all of these places, and some shit weird sex stuff starts to happen. And some people are totally with it. And some people are totally not with it, like ow. They're like, what the fuck? And so it's interesting that there's a line there for some people, and sometimes it's just-- I think it's just like a vibe thing.

That's what I think it comes out to. That's what it always is for us. I don't know, at least for me, I'm not like, oh no. What laws is this breaking? It's not on that level. It's usually just like, I'm just not vibing with this. I have to feel comfortable, and I feel like my standards for comfort are pretty fucking high. So if I'm feeling comfortable, I think that-- Yeah. Yeah. We've done a lot of exploring in those realms from making this film, "Cam Girls." Yeah, I was going to say that probably seems like probably was your gateway to a lot of other ways of looking at sex. Totally. I mean, honestly, the "Cam Girls" are who gave us acid.

So that's all NDMT. What was her name? I always forget her name. Ayla. Yeah, Ayla. Yeah, Ayla. It's the best way we've done a couple of podcasts with her. Of course, they're my most popular podcast by fall. Yeah, of course, it's opening up Ayla's other realms. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So just making that film and making that film as a couple was super desensitizing, sexually, because it's probably stuff that maybe would have turned us on at one point. Oh, yeah, no, it was not. It wasn't a turn on at all. Well, it's like we were on the vibe of we were making a movie. We were making art. It wasn't about sex.

And these people were our friends. We weren't thinking of them as sex objects. They were doing-- they were working. It was like they were at their job. And we were at our job. And we were meeting on that layer. This is what Michael has described to me, his line of work. Yeah, in fashion photography, being around beautiful people. Yeah, who are naked all the time. Yeah, yeah. Well, and not only are they beautiful and naked, but they're masturbating. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, even one step further. It's like, oh, OK, cool. I just had an orgasm on camera for you guys. That's the type of beer.

That's the type of beer. No, yeah, yeah. Nakedness and sexuality for-- I think we got these sentences. I think those are our most vanilla years. But we got desensitized probably. We got desensitized during the casting. Like, I don't want to watch cam shows anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. But it was never really-- we were never cam show people anyway. No, we were never into watching it. But you know, more into the subversive act of quitting your job at Whole Foods to go work at home. No, I was talking-- I mean, the movie really-- I had only thought about it probably in the typical context of, this is somewhere where, if you're into that, you can go and watch people do shit.

Yeah. That's not my thing. But for people who are into it, cool. I never thought about it from the other end. And never, I think, like most people probably humanize the people who are on the other end. But your film, obviously. That's really funny. That's very much a parallel with rolling out into the orgy. It's like, the internet is the orgy. You can go past it, though. Exactly. Exactly. Well, so-- but how did that-- so that you said it desensitized you to sexual things. And then that opened up a door for you. Yeah, yeah, I think so, but I think because by the time we were on the other end of that, desensitization, whatever, however you want to say that.

Once we were on the other side of that, I feel like our consciousness had expanded a lot. And we were open to new things now. We were obviously loose going into this movie. Yeah. It's not like we were had any much things that were tight. But I think after it, we just were like, oh, the people we know and respect and think are awesome, think differently about love and sex. And the people that were like, OK, we really like how you're doing things. We really like your vibe. We really like your energy. We really like you. Like, handbralls are some of the coolest people. Yeah, clearly. They turned you on.

And they're ahead of the curve and on everything. Yeah, on everything. I know. I know. Business, drugs, sex-- It's crazy, right? I see this is-- I combat probably-- I don't think of myself as a prude in any conventional sense. But I definitely-- like, there is the shows like polyamory and all of those things. And like, I try to-- I'm also honest with myself. I don't think like, yeah, I could do that and no, I couldn't. I know I'm-- I get jealous. Like, that's just me. I haven't done enough of-- Everyone does. Yeah, no, of course. I don't think I'm the type of person who can handle it. So I'm aware of that.

What do you say to people who potentially be listening or like, no, I don't like-- because I think it's important to be open-minded about this as a concept and also explore your own boundaries in a way that's comfortable too, which you guys did. You guys also had the benefit, which I'd like to point out that you guys got to do this together, right? You got to explore things together and talk about things. And they'll probably talk about them with other people who knew what the fuck was going on, which is I think a lot of stepping stones. So do you think it's ahead of the curve in the sense that this is something that people should be more accepting of because it's beneficial or just shouldn't be resistant to, per se?

Honestly, probably the first one. There's probably a lot of people who could aren't living the best lives that they could be. And if they were a little looser with their arrangements, could probably be feeling more in the flow of this experience. Yeah. Well, I mean, and it's honestly, it's something that's been a challenge for us. But we're not even really telling ourselves that story that much anymore because the times-- the percent of our life that it was a challenge is so small compared to the blissed out craziness, feeling like you've burst into a new dimension in the multiverse. Like, holy shit, where am I now?

What is this feeling? Like, we very recently, I guess earlier this summer, started kind of-- no, we made it official with a friend of ours that we're now having a relationship. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, we're not sure. I picked up on the vibe. I didn't want to eat it out. I didn't think it was going to be uncomfortable. But I picked up on that vibe. How is that-- wait, when did-- when? We made it official earlier this summer. Well, actually, the day the summer started pretty much. We went and saw the Grateful Dead up in spath. That was June 28th. I saw you guys not-- I don't think too long after that. Yeah, I think it was-- yeah, it was.

It was like a week or so after we came up and saw you. But yeah, it was basically like, we had been doing this thing for a long time with very close, our best friend. And we trip a lot together. We go away to houses for the weekend, just the three of us in a long time where this was just friends. Totally. Yeah, just friends. And we were just getting to know each other in a really deep way. And you're taking these boundary dissolving drugs. And it never felt like a sexual thing. And then one day it was. But it was me and the friend more. And so it was-- and her name's Mara. I don't think she would give a shit if we're talking about her, but she's amazing.

So Mara and I would have sex. And it was cool. But it went on like that for almost two years where I'd be like, all right, Cass, I'm going down to Mara's. Or Mara would come over. We'd all hang out and have to take our home and do our thing. And it was taking a little bit of its toll slowly, but surely on us. Because we weren't defining this thing. No one was really saying anything. It was just as unspoken. It just felt like unsatisfactory. And I think I realized that about it before either Sean or Mara did. I'm like, this isn't enough. This isn't like Mara deserves more. And I don't even-- not that it's deserved.

She didn't even want more. And I agreed. I thought I was like, she probably-- she does deserve more. She definitely deserves more. I'm just going to wait for her to speak up. And assuming that her wanting more wouldn't be us. But so home girl Mara goes off to the Himalayas and hikes by herself for 21 days and comes back. And she says, let's expand this thing. And I guess that meant like, hey, let's be all inclusive. Let's just like the three of us just do everything together all the time. And that's what we've been doing all summer. Yeah, I feel like. And then Mara and I went on our first dates together.

And we're like, now we-- I mean, we're mainly just girlfriends. But like, it's in true way, you know what I mean? Like, there's so much love that gets to be changed. You guys are deeply in love. And it's like, it's obvious. Yeah, we're like besties. And it's so cool. Well, you guys are ahead of the curve. I'll say that. Because let me say this. Let me say this. I've known and met and watched people who are in polyamorous relationships. And typically, most of the time, I'll pick up on something where like, OK, it's really those two. It's really that. And I'll watch. Like, and tell me, and then why you guys were talking.

Like, I'm watching. And the fact that you can say that and truly have this deeper relationship, all three of you, I think that's fucking incredible. Yeah, we get to have so much fun. And it's playful. And it's like, I don't know. It just feels very exciting. It's sexy as hell. It's fun. And I think, oh, man, I just lost my train of thought. Well, we do-- Oh, no, can I say something? Yeah, go for it. I think for us, part of the reason it was kind of hard is because when we would start to read stuff on polyamory, like none of it felt right for us. Didn't feel like they described us at all. Like, I was like, you're not defining it.

Well, because Sean and I were together for-- we've been together now seven years. And it's like, there's naturally a hierarchy. But like, I hate it. I don't want there to be a hierarchy. So I don't want to enter a relationship with a hierarchy. I just want three people to meet each other, you know? And so like, when you read a lot of this polyamory books, it's like, OK, well, how's this working? It just felt so regimented. And Sean and I are kind of the people who like, well, we don't go off to jobs. We like, spend 24/7 together. So we like, live life differently. So other rules don't necessarily apply to our life, like making sure that the structures, you know, ours is like so much more fluid.

Yeah, yeah. And it is all unequal playing field time. And you guys are comfortable. Just objectively, I can say this with people. Listen, you're objectively comfortable talking about it and just like, how do you language-wise-- Well, we just, I think a long time ago, decided like, let's just live more transparently. That's what we want of our subjects and our films and on our podcasts. So we have to really go there and own it. And that doesn't even mean like, hey, live an untraditional life and throw people's face, not at all. Like, god damn, it would have been so much easier not to do this. Really would have been so much easier because-- That's how everyone feels about everything.

I think honestly, what I'm learning is I think that's the hallmark of something authentic or true, is when you do the thing and you know for certain, it would be easier not to have done it, but feel compelled to do it. And this doesn't have to be a relationship. This could be a professional endeavor, it could be-- Every film we've done. Exactly, exactly. This is like the most natural thing to be doing. It's not, I guess, easy, isn't the right way. Right, definitely not. But it would be hard to do-- It was hard trying not to do this, you know what I mean? Yeah, it was harder trying not to do this.

Not that we were trying not to do it, but like-- But we were all obviously about more comfortable. We were in love. Well, yeah, yeah, and it's like, you have society that's so ingrained in you how things should be, how we should want one partner, how both Mar and I are like, OK, we're 29 years old, we're like getting that age where we're going to want to have babies. Like, who's the guy who's going to have our baby, you know? And like, am I thinking that because Mar is in the relationship, Sean's not the right guy, is Mar thinking because I'm in the relationship, Sean's not the right guy. And then we were like, oh, well, that's stupid.

He's the right guy. We love him. You got to have kids? Who knows, probably not. Why are you saying probably not? We're bumming on just kids in general. But like, we would have kids with Mar in two seconds. Kids are pretty fucking awesome. I know, man. I know. But-- Well, if there's anyone-- like, I feel like I'm more ready to have kids now that like it's Sean, Cass, and Mara, than I did before. That's cool. Yeah, and that's kind of crazy. Let me tell you this. There might be something to do that, because I can tell you, Alexis, I think the hardest thing for new mothers is the feeling of isolation and not having support.

And she was lucky. Her mom was there, and there were friends and other people, because having two-- like, and that's how it's done in tribal communities. Yeah. The community rears the child together. There may be, of course, the primary mother, who means, but like, sometimes all of them. That's-- kids fucking-- why are you bumming out on kids? We're environmentalists. Well, I also am having this. I think it's just-- I think it's what's going on in the world that I'm-- and like, what's going on in our life currently. And I'm like, shit. Like, I don't-- I'm not planning for retirement. Like, fuck.

And I don't plan on changing that. You know what I mean? So if I'm not being mature enough to plan for-- That's smart. I mean, past a certain age, am I mature enough to have children? Well, I mean, at 29, I'll tell you this. I wasn't mature enough to have children, but I also tell you this. When I had a child, I was not mature enough to have a child. You instantly become mature enough. It's like one of those things, like, if you've ever been working or doing something, you're like, I'm doing so much. I can't do any more. It's so hard. I'm overwhelmed. I'm doing so much. And then something else gets added.

And inevitably, you do it. You know, there is a threshold there where everything diminishing returns, and it sucks. But I'm just saying, you can exceed your capacity, just like you did with your relationship. You can push the boundaries on that. I don't encourage people to have kids or to not have kids. But it is very awesome. You guys, and spending time with you and your wife and your son, like, makes us-- those are the days when we're micro-dosed out and blissed out and hanging out with you and like, damn, man, how do we do this? This is fucking incredible. And the way you guys do it looks how we would do it.

Because I'm like, do I have to start going off to a job if we have a kid? No. We're gig people. And sometimes we go a long fucking time without a gig. Would you have to build in more responsibility if you have a kid? It doesn't have to look a certain way. It just has to make sure that the emotional, physical, and spiritual well-being of your kid is taken care of at all times. We just started-- and we're overly cautious and protective. We're neurotic due parents. The epigenetics of it clearly is coming through. But as long as your kid is taken care of your parent or someone else, you can do whatever you need to do in life.

You see how much I'm here. I would love to be with Eli, but I'm lucky enough. I work from home. I get to see him all the time. So it's finding the same way you find if you go to a sex place and the dude's weird. You find that line within yourself. Where is my comfort zone of being a parent? And as long as you're authentic with yourself, yeah, this is how much time I should be putting into some of the attention. I think what really-- I don't know. And this is always the case, Cass has pointed out to me when I talk about my worries or stuff. It's never an inside job. It's always like, I'm always even hand gesturing.

It's coming from the outside world. The way I think about that when it applies to kids is like, yeah, I'm sure our kid will be cool and they'll be chill and everything. We're going to have to start hanging out with other people who just happen to have a kid at the same time. And our whole world is going to become way more lame. But you're still always only hanging out with yourself. And I also think that in the same way that you guys have a really strong social group and friends and lovers, the parents are the same. Do you know how many kids, far, realize age, in a small town where we live, and we've met people, our next door neighbors are cool as shit.

Like, they're literally our next door neighbors. They're a year older than us. They don't have kids. They're not married yet, but they're fucking cool. Did it, buddy? He's the head of, he's the head of Bard's technology. He just is, what is it, the CTO or the CIO? Chief Information Officer now, I just got promoted. Super cool. And yeah, he, I'm just saying like, you find people who are like you wherever you are. Do you know what I mean? And that also goes for the parent groups. I also know like, you know, you probably have friends, work some of them, who have kids who maintain their coolness. And I was super worried about this, just to be clear.

I think we spoke about it on the episode where I just had to go, I like, reflexes it. I was really worried. Like, I was like, am I still going to be cool? Do I have to-- I worry more about the dad than the mom always. I feel like moms, when I see them have kids, I always think they're infinitely more cool. I'm like, oh, look at you all over the last day. I'm going to do nature. And dad's become-- I mean, I'm definitely like, I definitely, like I said, I'm neurotic, but like, he's cool. It's chilled you out. It's definitely chilled me out. And it forces you to, because like, you really can't be a dumbass in front of your kid.

Because like, you recognize they're picking up on it. And it's like, do I want like, kid to be a dumbass? Then I can't do that. Did you guys, I mean, I'm not-- I don't need you to talk about this. But like, as the level at which you would have arguments, did that change after you had a kid? Well, I was interested in how other people argue. Oh, god. We have a very bad dynamic. Well, I think everyone would say that. Yeah. I know. And I remind Alexis of that, that everyone-- because she's like, you know, what she does a lot. And I don't really fall into the strap too much is compares herself to other people or other relationships.

And I'm like, you don't know what the fuck is going on. Like, no one is putting on Instagram like a savage fight. Like, sometimes, I have really funny things. We were watching them last night. I'll record Alexis when we're in a fight. And inevitably, what I end up recording is me looking like a dumbass on the other end of the camera, like, just being like a tool. And I'm like, I don't want to watch it. She's like, no, we're going to watch that just. So, I mean, everyone obviously argues, and everyone has miscommunication issues. I have not severe, but moderate to severe anger issues that I really can't control myself when something is really getting under my skin.

Like, to the point where I'm acting inappropriately around my kid, I'm not insane. But like, I'm not active. I'm demonstrative. I'm raising my voice. I'm not like scaring him. He doesn't cry or anything, but it still has an impact. So, I went to therapy, started going to therapy. I still go, which I basically just described as me talking to saying like a 45-minute long model to this woman, and she's just like, mm-hmm. And that's what I'm paying my $15 copane for, but I got to say that's really been helpful, because you do get, and you don't get their advice, but you get yourself saying it to someone else in a space where you can say shit that you do that you're not proud of.

And that does have this effect where in the moment when things are happening, it tempers it down. I'm not at the point where I don't spaz out in front of UI, but I only do it once every couple of weeks now, or as before ramping up until I got to address this, it was probably a couple times a week, something like that, and he was young enough at that point where who knows how much it's affecting him, but he wasn't soaking it in like he is now. Now he's walking, he's about to start talking, carries his bunny around, and the mala beads, and swings him in waves like the queen to everyone. It's super funny.

So, I don't want him picking up my behaviors. Even if I pick them up, I don't want to pass those along. So, you have to prioritize it. It's like you prioritize the things in your life that are important to you. And that to me, controlling my emotional well-being is probably only secondary to making sure that we have food and a roof. That's the only thing, base level, survival needs. But yeah, it's definitely, you have to work on your shit when you have a kid, you don't have to, but then you fuck up your kids.

Yeah, and I get the environmental thing about not wanting to have kids, and I get, here's the way I look at it.

It's an excuse for me.

Here's the thing, do you think the time is linear? That's a really important question. Do you think time exists? Right, do you think time exists? So, doesn't that kind of eliminate some of the linear historical problems? Maybe the experience of having a child, or not having a child, not advocating one or the other, is the experience you potentially signed up for. That to me, that's why when people are like, well, I don't do it because the planet's so fucked up and all these things we're adding to, I'm like,

Yeah, like you don't have a choice, though.

No. - Either have a kid or you don't have a kid.

Yeah, and like, if there are like a scientific materialist, I'm not gonna push it. I'm not gonna bring up, well, do you think time is linear? It's a bit of a fuck you talking. And like, what are you talking about? Yeah, dumbass, what do you mean? Do you think you can go backwards?

No, I'm sure it would freak most people out. Your audience probably is fine with it, though.

Yeah, 90%, if you're not semi-ningo. But yeah, I mean, the point is, is that I don't think the question of our historical context, now that said, if you're in like Darfur or Syria, you probably don't want it, you know what I mean? Like you probably don't, that's a really signing up for a hell of an incarnation, having a child in that type of environment. But if you have the ability to, and it feels like not something horrible to you, I don't think you should not do it because of the environment or certain things. That is to say, if you have ALS or something like that, that's a big question, too.

And we have a friend whose mother passed away from ALS and they're about to have their first child, and that's fucking awesome. That's the human spirit that's flying in the face, and there's no guarantee of anything ALS is gonna happen. But it's just like, this is something that we wanna experience. And a lot of people think it's like an egotistical thing. Like, oh, you just wanna mini you and you can obsess. And like, I get it, I was one of those people I used to do.

I think about that.

It is, and it isn't, I mean, it's amazing 'cause it is like, you see at times like, that's a mini me. That's weird. And like, that's some shit I do. But you see that in social groups, too. Like, I'm sure you've noticed you used to say a thing or have a phrase or have a mannerism, and then you saw a friend jacked it. And like, years later, like, that's their thing. And like, fuck is that? Or you do the same thing. Like, so, I mean, it's happening all the time, but I will say like, just having a kid is, it's just kind of fun more than anything right now. And he's brad against starting to get bradty, so it's not like a perfect angel all the time.

But I think this new arrangement we have is maybe the first time we've thought about that aspect of it of like, oh, that'd be really fun.

It's fun.

And just because everything is a lot more fun now.

Yeah.

Like, everything is, even our fights. Like, it's almost like-- - How do you fight?

Well, we just had this 'cause, you know, we kind of like, we figured we're gonna do this relationship. Let's get all of our parents down with it.

We saw your parents. That's awesome.

This is why I respect about you guys. It's like, this isn't just like, talk in the talk. You guys are walking the walk. When you tell your parents something, that's like, you're letting everyone in your immediate vicinity--

Well, that's, yeah, that's really important.

And it's very important.

What does your parents say, respectively?

Why don't you start?

My parents both had a really hard time with it. But I think they were more tapped into the hard time that I had during, as it was coming, like, you know, the foundational stuff that has to happen.

I think, I think as just being attached to me, they're a little more tapped into me. And I think that also from a society standpoint, they might have been a little attached to my relationship with Sean and how it looked like and how it was gonna look like. And the walls of that are kind of getting tear down. And I'm also an only child. So I'm like, the mini me of both of them. And I think that for a while, I was like, pretty, in their eyes doing what's up. And my parents are both like, just, they don't agree with it.

A lot of stuff is stigmatized and like, you know--

It's understandable, I know.

Yeah, somebody reactions pretty typical. Like it's just like, oh, where are you guys going with this? Well, you know, I'm like, I don't know, it's not, it's not a pervy thing, really, at all, at all. So we're working on it with them and my parents.

What's your parents say?

We're, I guess, immediately accepting. They tried to, of course, pass on a whole bunch of what they say is concern. And I say, well, you're being fear brain. Why do I need to worry about that? Those seem like your concerns. So I hear them out on it, but at the same time, my family has gone through so much. I'm not the only child, I'm the oldest. And I had three younger sisters, the youngest one passed away. And we, my sister, who's also 29, has epilepsy. And the mentality of like a six or seven year old. So she's having seizures all over the place. We show up, they know nothing about like, what we've been up to, what are six like this.

We just rolled up with her. And we're like, yo, here's Mara. We're having a relationship with her now. And it's going to be all tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. She's beautiful. And we just had a great fucking time together.

We just made lunch and it was awesome.

Yeah, that's cool. And they loved her and she just kind of got swept up in it because my family, because of Caitlin's seizures, has to be so in the moment. You really have to have a passion for being in the moment because when it's not a tragedy unfolding or rushing to the emergency room or she slammed her head on something or this or that, we just want to be there and we want to soak that up. And now we had another person to do that with and another person who's really good with my sister and we'll spend time with her and it's a beautiful thing. So we all just went on this a week long vacation together, my whole family, nieces and nephews, my sister, both my sisters and my parents.

And Cass and I got into it a few times.

Well, we get into it every time. It's like the same way we fight about.

On those trips, we fight about mine and my sister's relationship, my other sister, Megan, who has five kids. And--

What's the fight about? You don't have to get too deep into it.

No, no, we'll talk about this. You can see it better than I can.

I'm not trying to provoke a fight.

Well, it's like they're so crazy. It's like me, not, I feel like it's going to be so charged.

Well, no, it's not charged. It's like Cass almost, like there's a dynamic between a brother and sister that's been going on since Megan was born.

And I can't stand it.

And she can't stand, and also Cass is like a fixer. So it's like--

Oh, and you're on child.

Yes, it's a little project every year.

And I have a sister, yeah.

You're like, let's fix these two. Let's get them back together.

I wasn't even trying that hard. I was just making tacos about damage. (both laughing)

And I'm like, you know, the fight is basically, hey, let's fall back from making tacos, 'cause you know, my sister obviously isn't feeling my presence right now, doesn't necessarily understand why we have a new girlfriend, and that she's just here. And like, it's just like, it's a lot, so let's fall back.

How much younger is this sister?

She's 18 months younger than me, so she's 34. I'm 36.

My sister's two and a half. And is she like a--

She's the opposite of me.

Does she act older?

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh my God.

Oh, man, I know the dynamic right away.

Yeah, you already know it, you already know it. But there's also, like, from what I've heard, you and your sister really get along, and you want to spend time together.

Over the years.

Over the years, that's--

Takes time together, I guess.

And that has taken, to be quite honest, a fair-- So me and my sister did not get along very much when I was a kid. I'm sure I resented her for coming in and taking the attention. And God, I can remember our fights. I was a shit older brother for a significant period of time. 'Cause I was upset about stuff, parents divorce, looking back, regular shit, not even that unique. But we moved to New York together. I had just graduated from Boston. Tess was living up, upstate, about barred. And we moved in together. That lasted four months, five months. She ended up throwing a plate at me. But just so we, we did not--

That would be five minutes with my sister.

No, and I mean, that was probably like, because we both exercised some degree of patience. You know what I mean? That was the, we wanted to make it work. We lived at opposite ends. It was a railroad apartment on Third Street. So we didn't really have to. But anyway, no, I mean, sibling stuff, I get that. And I also get is the outsider, just like, either looking at drama or familiar stuff, and just being like, this is no sense.

Well, she doesn't know the sibling dynamic. And also her relationship with her parents is like,

Good.

Perfect. She's never had a fucking argument with them. You know what I mean?

Like, it's just like, wow. And you know.

Well, so he gets all fucking weird. And I'm like, why are you being such a baby bitch? Like, come on. Like, I don't treat him like that, but I just like, put my, keep my head down. And I'm like, this is the family. And we're gonna show up. And we're gonna make some fucking tacos.

So normally, yeah. So normally, I would just lash out. She'd call me, she'd think I'm being a baby bitch. I would lash out and wanting to further be a baby bitch. She would feel bad in this whole thing. We have Mara sitting there, looking at all this. Months into this amazing relationship where none of us have really had any problems.

Yes, now you're seeing the shadow. And it was super upsetting, but it was also so cleansing.

What was her reaction to it?

She really calmed us down. She had a good take on things. She cried, though. I scared her. She said it scares me.

What did you do?

Well, just to see a side of me.

What did you do?

That's just very fierce. Yeah, just more like cutting to the point, like, hey, I'm not gonna wrap this in niceties right now. I'm not fucking going down there to deal with my sister's bullshit.

Are you, when you do that, do you use like a raised tone of voice or is it just, that's what I'll say?

Well, that's what's brilliant for me. And like, this is not why we're in a relationship with Mara, but, and this isn't, and who knows? I'm sure this benefit that I'm saying right now will slap me in the face of nature. But, but she saw it. And she was like, cause Sean always has the excuse of, well, I don't raise my voice. I don't scream. I don't push. I don't yell. And I'm like, yeah, but you're fucking mean. And she saw that. And then he, she was a reflection of him that he saw, got to see. Where he doesn't, when I say you're being mean, he doesn't hear.

Same, when Alexis tells me that, I'm like, you're, I'm not being mean, I'm making sense.

That's what I say too. I'm like, technically no. But then you think about it. I'm like, well look at what you're acting.

I know, I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Yeah.

I know, I know, I know. - It's hard man.

That's my, listen, I'm, I see, it's harder probably for you because you're doing it. Probably from a somewhat focused, I'm out of control for the most part. So it's not hard for me to look back and be like, like that, like you wouldn't do that in public, would you? Cause I also had that thing, like, I don't get above a certain pitch in public. What would people I don't know? There's only so far I will go and I'll disengage. I'll float people close to me. I will go pretty damn fucking far. And that's not a good thing. But yeah, I mean, when you're being like--

See, the weird thing is I'm kind of the opposite. I'll explode on it, like I saw a UPS guy, clip a car and destroy the side of it. And then he just took off and he got stuck at the light so I went running up there and I exploded on this guy in a way that I would never talk to Cass or my family or anything like that. I would never do it.

That's interesting.

But it's weird because the way you describe your y'all's dynamic, I feel like Cass, you can probably relate with no alert. Cass gets, Cass is the one that would emotionally get, yes, more out of control.

Oh yeah, I'm like physically pushing him. I'm like, get the fuck out of my face. I will, I'm like, I will steep so low because I just need space from this chaos and craziness.

Yeah, but I know I know I know I'm familiar with that. Those nice actions too. I don't push but I've been pushed. (laughing)

It's all solvable. It's all solvable.

Well, that's what it is.

Well, here's the truth of it. It's whether the parties involved believe that it's solvable. That's the only, I mean, sometimes things aren't solvable, like a situational thing, but if you're in a relationship and some stickiness comes up, I mean, it is an opportunity to work through that and I'd be grateful that you have the opportunity to do it with people who understand and are tolerant of that. I know in my relationship, that's probably like one of the biggest gifts is that I have someone who's patient enough and loves me enough to deal with my nonsense for lack of a better word.

And you're working it out. It might seem crazy, but you're working it out. You're not sweeping it under the rug.

No, no, no, certainly not. It's impossible to. That's what I'm saying. I'm grateful that I'm such a spaz because it's impossible pretty much. I mean, I know people do it still, but like for me, it would be hard to like pretend that isn't something that was happening. You know what I mean?

You guys spend too much time together. Same thing with us.

Same thing, yeah.

Like maybe if we both had our, oh, we grind away for 12 hours a day, we come home and we have two hours of FaceTime before we go to bed, we could be sweeping a lot of fights under the rug.

Well, I think we would appreciate each other more if we spent less time together.

Oh, maybe.

I think if this is what I was thinking about too, 'cause I've been saying, so I've been overwhelmed as you guys have known for the past like year or so, even longer. And I was like, you know, I decided I need space, not just like physical space, but just like space and to be creative, to myself. And Alexis took it kind of like the wrong way. Like I didn't want to spend time with her. Like what do you mean, you know, on the space? Like I'm not even near you. I'm like, you know, I just want to like be able to sit down and record something, make a song like for like an hour. And I think that's something that I was thinking of too.

It's like when you just like, even today, like I'm not going to be with her. When I go back and see her, like we're happier to see each other. It's this weird kind of thing. But we're also like, you guys like, we enjoy spending time with each other. And I always point that out. I'm like, do you know how many people can't do this? Like they just, they're in a relationship and if they see each other too much in a certain way, like they just like.

Well, why do they do it?

Well, I mean, like there's, every situation is unique, but I think people for the most part are really afraid of being alone. I think that's something that a lot of people are not used to. And I think the people who have been alone and not in like a despairing way can be despairing. But like are familiar with the concept of like what Rainer Maria Rilke would call solitude, right? The positive aspects of being alone and realizing what's going on, typically do really well in relationships. Just because like they're not, that's not what's driving them to be in the relationship. If that's, if fear is your driving force and anything, doesn't mean you can't get good results.

It's just like, you're gonna have to work that out somewhere along the way. And it might be harder as you go farther along. But yeah, I mean, I think that's what it is for most people, but I don't know. I mean, I think I know a lot of people are happily in love. I also know when you guys said seven years, I was talking to my astrology friends, there's these seven year cycles. You hear the seven year itch? That's an astrological thing. We do go through, I think all of the cells in our bodies are completely generated in that span. So like, there's--

You're actually a different person.

You're actually a different person. And energetically, if you can maintain the connection, you know, like couples who are married 50, 60 years, like there's something there. There's some deeper, probably than human incarnation level to it, which is worthwhile pursuing, which to me is what it's about. I do believe in the rhombus thing that like every experience here is for the unfolding of our own path. Like this is getting us to the point we chose.

Nothing's happening to you, it's happening for you.

Exactly. And I know that's like a trite platitude for a lot of people, but really if you can look at it like that as much as possible, it really is like, things don't feel so disjointed and chaotic and they can kind of flow together.

Well, you know, it's crazy that there actually is some like science behind that seven year thing. Before this, I had two seven year relationships. I've been in relationships for 21 years.

Well, and this one morphed, didn't it?

And then this one on the seven year--

Anniversary.

On the seven year anniversary.

Honestly.

We took it into a new place, but you know, it's weird ever since I met Cass even before we were in a relationship. I knew we were gonna be spending a lot of time together for a long time and I think she knew it too and we both committed ourselves to it. And I don't know, to me, I've been married.

I know.

So it's like, to me, that means a lot more than any contract that we could have in the government. You know, is like, wow, we make art together and we wanna make art together and we share a business and we share a home and now, you know, we're building a little community, not this relationship. I not want people to think that that's what this is. But we are, we're inviting more people into our home, we're holding events. We're holding meditations and art nights and these kinds of things and it's what we wanna do. It's our way of reconnecting because this relationship has grounded us so much and we've learned so much and man, this fucking adventure that we're on is insane.

And that's why I'm surprised that our parents aren't more excited for us. I'm like, we could be getting married, having, getting a dog, a mortgage, all this stuff. And that doesn't sound like that.

Oh, they should, I have.

I'm like, we could be doing what Noah's doing and that doesn't sound like as, like you guys should be excited for us.

Well, you can do whatever you want. The truth is, I would like to think that I would be the same way with my kid, but I see what happens when I make decisions. I've made decisions or my sisters made decisions that my mom doesn't approve of and I get what's behind that now with a kid. It's not a logical, it's their persona and ideas and intuition too, like this is how they feel and it's trying to figure out like how do they suss this out and they don't know what's gonna go on. No one does, but it's just like that parental concern is gonna supersede any level.

That's so funny.

They'll get, I mean, like all parents.

I mean, it's like my parents know they're gonna get over it. They're like, my dad's like, I just need time. They're like, I just need time. I don't know how long it's gonna take. And I'm like, you're telling me you don't know how long it's gonna take. I'm like, are you crazy? We can't do it like this. And he's like, no, just need time. Sorry, just need time, just need time, just need time.

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much the fact that they know that that's huge because that is probably what it, I mean, it's like this. It's like when someone dies in your life, right? Most people can't flip a switch and just get the grieving over because they know that it's whatever in their mind. There's a linear process. Why we have the stages of grief and then people can look at them and be like, oh, shit, I am. And you know, it doesn't have to even be for the death of someone. It can be a death of a project or a relation, whatever it is.

Good morning.

Morning, if most people do not, I haven't met anyone who's able to get over it. Even if they act like they're getting over it. Too old to normal things, there's a process to it. So they might be mourning for the concept of what your relationship was more than anything else.

That's what I felt, especially with your mom. I felt like she was a little bit mourning and I haven't spoken to her about this and we're going to, we're very close. But the mourning of me as a concept of like a son-in-law figure. Like now, oh, now you're gonna be that for someone else too. And I get a, it's the scarcity model.

And I think that even as I navigated this relationship, I feel like there was part of me that felt the need to, like I went through the process of mourning. You know what I mean?

The loss of us as an entity.

The loss of just the two of us as an entity and like, I mean, it wasn't, I don't mean to stress that as a big part of it, but yeah, you do have to release attachment to how you think things could be ought to be.

What we did, that was really healing and I suggest to anyone is we did an MDMA ceremony. I mean, on this trip, so we're around my family and the three of us do it together. And all the stuff that seemed like obstacles and all this like I from one, and I think I said this out loud was very much rethought of it. Like, oh, that's all the stuff it took to get here. I mean, that was the only way it was gonna go down 'cause that's how it went down.

Yeah.

That was just the way it was gonna unfold.

And it gives you like a new appreciation for the relationship when it's good. You're like, wow, this is so good.

It makes you wanna keep showing up.

Yeah, and in the context of like all that fear and nonsense and craziness or whatever it is, I mean, honestly we had a, it was pretty chill. I'm not trying to make it seem like it was a hard to get here. It was like, it was so obvious and we were all so chill and we were all so like, whatever, but like, you know, whatever, you gotta.

Yeah, I would say to anyone that's thinking about doing something like this, it really shouldn't take much thinking at all. It's, that's what we kept saying is like.

We had to think our way out of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We had a friend, my childhood friend came and visited us while we were on this vacation with Mara and there was his first time meeting in her and he's like, yeah, no, I just, you know what? He was just trying to voice his concerns. Of course, everybody just talks about that, you know, wants to talk about their concerns. It's just such an interesting way of looking at life 'cause we don't look at life that way.

Yeah, and he's like, well, I just love to hear about, you know, some of the challenges. And we're like, yeah, no, no, we'll talk to you about this. And we all sat there for a second, took a deep breath and I'm like, I can't think of anything. And Cas was like, I can't and Mara's like, I don't know. We really can't think of anything. This has been fun. And that said, that's what this is all a symptom of. It's a long time ago we devoted our life to having fun.

Yeah.

If it's not fun or funny, we're not doing it.

Well, that's something that I've certainly been trying to remember, especially when things aren't objectively fun, which happens, right? I mean, it's hard to have fun 100% of the time. You can, your general slant can be there. It can be most of the time, but obviously shit happens in people's lives.

Yeah.

But there is this undercurrent of whether it's fun, whether it's love, whether it's like laughing or joy, like that shit is really what I think is sustaining what's around us. So being able to remember that in whatever capacity, whether it's through a relationship, whether it's through art or whatever it is. Yeah, man.

Well, the way I think of it and the way we talk about it is by doing that is we're holding space, you know, kind of like monks, you know, who are devoting their life to meditation, us devoting our life to having fun and not being scared and kind of subverting dominant paradigms by just making the other thing more polar.

In a comfortable way, that's the thing.

You have the privilege to do it in a comfortable way.

See, but this is the thing that I think is important there that you're comfortable doing it because I think that a lot of like, I don't think, I don't think I could do, let me ask you this. If it was flipped and it was a dude, would you be okay with it?

Yeah, I'd have to be.

I think have to be, exactly.

He would have to be.

I mean, I don't know that right now and I think I would go through similar challenges that she did.

Yeah, and like Sean, whenever he looks at him, the other guy is like, well, it just froze. Like, why would you want that?

No, no, I'm not that.

But like, come on. I wanna be gay, I wanna hook up with you. (laughing)

Well, he just doesn't like, his version of another dude is like them jerking off in the corner, like a total perv. And I think--

Oh, like a dude coming into the mix?

Yeah, 'cause it's always--

I just can't picture a dude being a part of the relationship. In terms of a sexual thing, yeah sure.

See, I can picture more part of the relationship less is sexual because I think it, there has to, the reason it can work is because of the relationship. And like, the mutual love and respect and that sort of thing. Without the relationship, it's just like, what's this weird fucking private parts doing here?

There's a dick and balls here. (laughing)

Yeah, we didn't need any more dick in this situation.

Yeah, I mean, like I like you. I just don't--

Have you ever hooked up with a guy? You can say it.

No, no, I haven't. I would, obviously, I have, I think what most guys do not cop to when they're adolescents is everyone has a question as to what sexuality is. What inevitably happens, I think, for most people, whether you're gay or straight, is something turns you on and then that opens the door to what you're actually into. Whatever it is, I certainly do not check and impulse them. Obviously, not homophobic. I do not find the male body attractive. I don't even particularly find my male body like overwhelmingly attractive, so I just--

I just don't find the allure there. I think that's what it is. I've always, Cas has known this about me, like even in my womanizing and chasing women, it was never about landing the deal. It was always like, oh, I know I could do this now and I can hold on.

Right, yeah, what it's about.

And with it, dude, I just don't find it that allure.

You're not attracted to them.

But--

It's okay to say each other.

No, but--

It's okay to say.

But maybe.

Well, Cas is, yeah.

Look, I mean, I think taking mind-expanding drugs gives you a different sense of--

Gender fluidity.

Well, yeah, you're more attracted to maybe more things. I think that's one crack in consciousness, but I think also, I can just speak from my own experience. I'm like more Lesvo now than I've ever been. You know what I mean? And I think that had to do with opening up and being playful and having different experiences.

Trusting.

Trusting and thinking, I can think women are beautiful, but then like to want to turn someone on and want them to turn me on and like want to play. Realize it's all just a play and energy, you know? And that's what you were saying, like what would be advice that I'd give someone? If someone were to say like, oh, I can never do that, I'd be too jealous. Just realize jealousy is just an energy.

Well, that's what it sounds like to me too. What you're saying is, I think maybe the reason it's easier for you to slip into being attracted to women and it's harder for us to get attracted to men is I do think there is a global and universal shift towards a rebound. I know this is such a trite thing to say at this point, but really, like the masculine energy has dominated our culture for 3,000 years and sucks.

It's not hot.

And so it's not hot, it's not hot.

It isn't.

It probably never was. But now it's kind of this shifting back to the creative to the more like nebulous left-brained aspect or right-brained aspect of society. So maybe that's what you're slipping into too. And it could be a global thing or a whole energetic thing. I don't know. I mean, who the fuck knows?

Well, you know what was a real consciousness cracker for me? We were, we did a ceremony with one of our friends who's a wizard and he comes under my podcast.

Yeah, Devin.

Devin.

I gotta have him on.

Yeah, he is.

Yeah, he is.

He is the best.

When we do a city night, maybe we'll come hang and we'll all like it together.

He wants to do a hypnosis night coming up.

Yeah, he comes over and hypnotizes us.

Cool, have you done that?

Yeah.

There's a work, it's cool.

It's cool, it's a process of letting go.

You go as like he aids you in going with it.

And what happens when you like go? Just like a psychedelic, when you go just like that?

It just feels like a deep meditation.

Cool.

That's how it feels for me.

Awesome.

We've had, we've had some good times together and you know, and one of our little weekends, we were like going deep and telling stories and he's my age and kind of grew up in this in a similar scene, like the punk rock DIY scene. You know, he was just talking about like, well, he, he just said to me, he was like, dude, it's 2016, if you haven't sucked a dick, you're the one with the problem. And I was like, whoa, he's fucking right. He's totally right. But I don't know, I know he's right though. I have no interest at all.

No, I didn't think I did it. I don't know if I don't think I do.

I get the gender fluidity thing. I also, you know, like I support anyone's decision to be transgender, gay, queer, lesbian, get whatever it is. That's, I have no problems with it. I read the articles where people do rail against this stuff and I'm like, well, let them do what they want. And I also try to check my own stuff. I'm like, am I gender fluid and do what I be into that? And I think for better or worse, at least to this point, I have a rigid enough sense of who I am or a solidified sense. Maybe that's just waiting to be deconstructed.

I think it does get deconstructed. I mean, I was walked, I literally walked into the bedroom at the movie theater last night, you know? I like was looking at the person. It just looked like a human and I walked towards it. I mean, I was high out of my mind. (laughing) But like, I was like, I was actually thinking about how there's people who think about what it means to be human and there's people who don't think about what it means to be human and that's almost like a dividing line. Because if you think about what it means to be human, then you're thinking about what kind of human you wanna be.

Anyway, so I'm walking in, I walk in and I freak out 'cause there's fucking urinals. I'm like, that's the problem I have with gender fluidity, bathrooms because I don't wanna walk on urinals. Maybe that'll change.

Urinals, let me can I tell you something? And somebody's gone into the bathroom. I fucking hate urinals and I wait for the ones where the people are pooping, even though there's sometimes poop in there.

Wow.

Because I can tell you there's been enough times, like the last time I used a urinal, I really had to go and I only used whenever I had to go. And dude came up next to me. It wasn't looking anything as far as I could tell. I don't turn my head, but it started bumping up against me and I'm like, yo, I don't like this.

I'm splashing.

No, not splashing. They had the partitions, got splashing. We're like the troughs, like they have some places.

No, I mean, you're going to a bar. Like anywhere in Ireland has those.

Well, we should be deconstruct our personas where you can just piss and shit wherever we want.

No, I don't want to take it that far.

Maybe, maybe I do.

I like that you follow up saying truth.

Sounds very open to everything right now.

I am, I really like I'm like, bring it on. I mean, the fuck.

Or maybe I do.

Yeah. All right, with guys, this is an amazing conversation. I don't even know how long it was.

It was 56 minutes and 27 seconds.

Perfect.

We're having us on the synchronicity podcast on the MindPod Network.

Third time.

Is this our third time?

Yeah.

Oh, cool. We always have fun, man. I appreciate you obviously immensely for having this network of people. It keeps getting doper.

I hope so.

Right?

It definitely does. I feel like I was there kind of for the beginnings of you taking this thing over.

You are.

And it's just gotten doper.

I think it's getting to where it's supposed to be. I'm glad you guys appreciate it. But before we wrap up, I wanna do the colors, numbers, and animals with both of you again, 'cause I don't know if we've done those 'cause I'm usually too high, I forget. Cass, what's your favorite color?

Blue.

Sean, what's your favorite color?

Black.

What's your favorite number, Cass?

35.

What's your favorite number, Sean?

Seven.

What's your favorite animal?

Koala?

What's your favorite animal?

Coyote, I'm just saying.

Okay.

Yeah.

Phonetic, here's two, and then I'll ask you each one, each of these questions. Cass, what's a practical tip that's helped you in your life that you could share with people listening?

Learn how to breathe.

That's pretty fucking good, Sean.

I was gonna say meditate, but that's even better because meditating's almost too advanced. You gotta learn how to breathe first.

I think that's really good.

Guys, thank you for doing this.

Peace and love. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

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And I think at this point, I'm good. I got three things. Three tracks already done. I need to finish one. I just wanna make sure it's finished to the right degree. You know what I'm talking about. Big thanks to Patrick Nemchek, who is a patron on Patreon, recurring one, big one, producer level credit. That's it. Next week, there's one more podcast before this wellbeing in modern age. Whitma event. I will have that out. Otherwise, I'll see some of you in New York City. If you're in and around the city, hit me up. No at sync podcasts. Maybe we can hang out, do some fun stuff. All right, bye-bye. Lincoln Tech provides career training that keeps America working.

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