Who Knows? The Shadow Knows...with Chris Casuse

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This is synchronous, this is synchronous, this is synchronous.

This is synchronous, this is synchronous, this is synchronous.

This is synchronous, this is synchronous, this is synchronous.

This is synchronous, this is synchronous. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music)

Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Welcome to Synchronicity. Did I just make you listen to the entire intro of Star Trek the next generation? Yes, I did. This episode is brought to you by Star Trek the next generation, very happy to have them as a new sponsor. If you're gonna go check it out on Netflix, which it is on, I suggest probably starting at season five. I mean, it's great to start at the beginning, but I think unless you're like a big kind of like super into it already, it really hits the stride season five. So season five Star Trek the next generation of sponsoring this episode. Welcome to Synchronicity. For real, my guest this week is Chris Cassus.

Chris, what can I say about Chris? I say at the end of the episode, one of the most interesting people I've ever come across in my life, we have many different connections that I have found out very quickly after meeting Chris. But how we actually got connected was through cryptocurrency back when everything was going to the moon. Chris became a client of mine and joined my server for cryptocurrency, crypto sync, which believe it or not, people actually enjoy, even though things aren't going up and people aren't going nuts with making money, because you get to learn about things, you learn about yourself, you learn about the people who are connected, not only through cryptocurrency, but also this podcast.

So it's a fun place to hang out. Anyway, Chris has quickly proven himself to be much more than just a cryptocurrency client. He's a good friend at this point. He has done so much work for helping underserved communities and kind of just delving into the often unexplored realms of psychedelics, healing, trauma, and just really is a deep and profound thinker. And also, he's one of those people who not only is deep and explores the depths of what he's interested in, but also has a very broad range of interests. Normally, you need a very tight focus if you're gonna go very deep, but Chris has no problem going into anything really related to the psyche, the mind, the soul, spiritual stuff, and it's really awesome.

I mean, not a day goes by, it feels like in the server where he's not revealing some other deep wisdom he's accumulated, like wonderful takes on yung and alchemy and just, it's awesome. He's just a wonderful person to know. And I'm very honored and grateful that we've crossed paths in this lifetime. So yeah, that's Chris. I mean, he's the coolest. You're gonna hear in this episode, I think the general theme, if I were gonna name one, it would be shadow work, not just individual shadow work, but cultural shadow work, deep collective conscious shadow work. And I think that's something that when we're talking about meditation and psychedelics and any other healing modalities, but those are the two I'm most familiar with, there's a lot of shadow stuff going on.

There's a lot of dark things and we can often do the spiritual bypass or gloss over them or not deal with kind of the more pernicious and kind of delicate and not always fun aspects of doing this stuff and thinking about this stuff and learning about this stuff and experiencing this stuff at the end of the day. So that's why I love Chris. I mean, if you're gonna be talking about all of these things, I think it's great. Yes, meditation can be something that provides more equanimity in your life and more patience and more gratitude. And those are never bad things. Let's be clear. Same thing with psychedelics.

You can use them to heal trauma. You can use them to explore yourself and understand how your actions affect others and vice versa. And again, really never a bad thing. But when we start extrapolating those things from their roots and kind of like I said, the genetically modified versions of these things and we only use it to optimize ourselves as people and forget that there's a whole world of connection that's going on there. I think we're doing ourselves a tremendous service and I think we see this reflected not only in our larger cultural landscape, but we see it within those specific realms, right?

And Chris has shared some stuff in the server, which is very insightful because he's deeply connected to this stuff on the ground level of some of the abuses and other things that go on. And I won't mention any of these by name, just as I really do my best to not mention any personal or behind the scenes information I've experienced from my trip around the spiritual business scene. But shit happens and not everyone hears about it. And when not everyone hears about it and shit is happening, it distorts the overall kind of reflection of what's going on. Anyway, it's a fun episode and I really think you're gonna like it, that for something, all of what I set up.

Also, there's a couple of things I wanna mention. Jordan Peterson, I know, we're tired of me bashing him and saying he's a terrible person, but I do wanna give him some credit. So we know this synagogue thing happened in Squirrel Hills in Pittsburgh, just ridiculous and it's not hard to draw the connection between the hateful and violent rhetoric that's going around the web and just everywhere through our leaders' mouths and things like that and how this ends up happening. I'm Jewish, as you may or may not know, I'm not very religious in the Jewish sense, but as Ramda says, as you get older, as you age, you're the religion and culture you're born into begins to take on greater importance.

And I think a lot of people wanna, you know, get rid of those shackles, whether you're Catholic or Christian and you kind of felt you've been indoctrinated and want nothing to do with Jesus or religion. I think it's important usually not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Now, I'm gonna counter this by basically my take on Jordan Peterson. So Jordan Peterson called out the shooting. He was like, this is, there's no place for an anti-Semitic, you know, behavior like this. This is terrible. What ended up happening is his fan base on Twitter. He was like, fuck you, Jordan Peterson, fuck you.

It's like, they're the worst. Like, what's the matter with you? Your rule number eight is like Jews are the worst. Like just really taking him to task and we're the most popular and most liked comments were the ones that were anti-Semitic. And I wanna be clear, when I talk about Jordan Peterson, like there are people who are so much worse than him, just objectively just the stuff they're spouting and saying, it's just horrible all the way around. Jordan Peterson isn't, I don't find him to be the worst human being in the world, but what he does is he provides this little crack in the door for hatred and cynical and just very oppressive lines of thinking.

And he, this can give someone who's already kind of being inclined towards zealotry and kind of fascist mindsets to really go nuts. And it also lets people who are maybe don't really care about that or don't want anything to do with that. And I know people who are Jordan Peterson fans, who are great people. There's really nothing wrong with them. They're not terrible people, they're not racist. They're not, well, they're not racist in the sense that we're all kind of racist. But they're not overtly racist and hate-filled. But for the most part, if you're kind of on the fence, a lot of what Jordan Peterson can say, self's totally logical and plausible.

A lot of it is because it's a very, you know, not particularly insightful, but it's a look into Jung's thinking, it's a look into various self-help modalities and speech that people have used for a long time. And that's good stuff. I mean, I don't think it's particularly original, but it's helpful if that's your first kind of encounter with it, and if it leads to a deeper understanding of it, that's even better. But what happens is he's really catering to a vulnerable group of people, which is disaffected young white males who feel like they're being overtaken, who feel like they're being oppressed.

They don't know from who, from what, but it certainly feels like the social justice warriors, whatever that means. And that's a really dangerous group to play with. Yes, they have money. They have their parents' money. They have their own money to support a thriving business that Jordan Peterson and other people are profiting off of. But they're also kind of disillusioned. They don't really know what's going on. They can't understand. The in-cell group has kind of come from that. And, you know, it's just a very dangerous thing to be doing. So, you know, I think, to a large extent, you're a reflection of your fans.

And they can't say if a group of Nazis decides they like Jordan Peterson, everyone who likes Jordan Peterson is a Nazi and Jordan Peterson is. But if that's mainly the people who are really resonating with your stuff, and that's the very large subset of it, I mean, it's kind of a little hard to take that back at this point. And just one other point about Jordan Peterson, the other thing I find very disturbing about him is that how some people who like Jordan Peterson are willing to say, yeah, I mean, I don't like any of the bad stuff. I don't really care about any of the shitty stuff he says about trans people or gay people or minorities or women.

But I like the other stuff he says, you know, the feel-goodery platitudes of clean up your room, bucco. I like that stuff. And that's like, eh, eh, I don't know that you can parse it. I don't know that there's room for nuance in that particular example. I normally, like I said at the beginning of this, not a fan of saying you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. But if the baby is kind of like a hate-filled zombie that's making other people turn into hate-filled zombies, like maybe you're rid of that baby 'cause it is already dead. But I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not saying that he's a terrible person.

I want to be very clear about that. I know, give him a hard time. I know some people have a certain subset of people have a problem with that. Anyway, sorry about that. I just felt that he needs to clarify based on, you know, what's going on, 'cause it's good he called out anti-Semitic behavior. Got to give him credit there. He's not a fucking total jag. All right, how about, that's it. We did an ad. We'll do the Get Meister ad. Get Meister, www.getmeister.com. 15% off, if you use the code sink at checkout. S-Y-N-C, weed apparel, weed stuff. I finally am able to interact with the lovely marijuana.

Again, it's been, I took like a, Jesus, week-long break 'cause of the sinus thing. Whoa, boy. It's been a while since I've done that, but I do recommend it for people who are chronic smokers. I can now officially say that there are positive benefits from taking a break more than just your tolerance going back to the floor, but truthfully, it's probably a good idea. Any habitual behavior, it's hard when you're in the throes of it, but if you're forced to do it, you do recognize kind of the overall benefits of doing that. So yeah, just make sure we have a healthy relationship as best we can. Okay, that's it.

Big thanks to Patrick Nemczyk, Patreon patrons. You know what to do. Listen, you want to support? I think I'm going to pull a Romine Nazer and basically pull down the paywall in a few weeks. Let me just get time to do that properly. Who are we making people pay for our Patreon stuff? What kind of asshole move is that? Listen, if you're producing some amazing fucking content that people are bait, batten down the walls to get at, for sure, but like really, I think I'm kind of done with that. And listen, you know, I think I get more joy from getting my music out there and heard than getting paid for it, and that's for sure.

Feels good to get paid too, but yeah, is it really necessary? I don't know. Okay, that's it. Without further ado, here is Chris Kussus. (upbeat music) Chris. Hey. How you doing here? I'll turn on my video for a second. I'm not going to leave it on because my Wi-Fi isn't the best. Okay. What's going on, man? There you are. There you are. Nice to see you. I'm doing really well. How are you? Good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing good. It's nice being home. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So many months on the road. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Well, it's like you're always on the road in your mind anyway, so. Right.

(laughs) Cool, dude. I'm super excited. We actually finally got to do this. Yeah, I know, right? It only took a while. Yeah, only six months. Something like that. Mm. Just my coffee. You can find my coffee real quick. No prob. All right. There we go. (grunts) Yeah, I have, I'm drinking literally shaved ginger in hot water. That's. Oh, really? That's my drink. I'm going to an acupuncture tomorrow for the sinus thing, and then I have the ENT on Thursday. It's just like, I'm actually kind of clear. It's just, my head feels like there's like a brick in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds like a frontal sinus.

Yeah, it definitely feels like that. I mean, I'm making slow strides, but whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, I had frontal sinus issues for like two or three years. It was pain in the butt. Yeah, it definitely sucks. It's like, Yeah, yeah, it sucks. All right, well enough about that. Dude, thank you for coming on and doing this. Sure. Yeah, yeah, anytime. So I figured today we could talk about a lot of stuff. I mean, the topics I'm really interested in covering are obviously the work you've done down in South America and are bringing to the States. And also, you know, something that I've been trying to talk about more and more that I know is close to your heart, which is talking about some of the communities and people who aren't represented in the psychedelic scene.

So women and minorities and just underrepresented people. And I think, you know, we're getting into this weird period with psychedelics where it's kind of getting mainstream, but we're seeing the same thing that we kind of see when other things go mainstream, which is a lot of white dudes coming to the forefront and telling everyone how things are. So I figured that'd be a cool place to start, but also I really want to find out more about you because I know we connected via crypto, but I don't know any like, what's your origin story? I don't know anything about that.

Origin story, huh? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you know, I'm born in New Mexico. Did high school college in Southern California. We moved out here to Michigan about five years ago. So we've been out here, which has been interesting. So it's cold out here.

Yeah, it's not the same weather as Mexico in California. Yeah.

So it's taken some adjustment. So it may account for some of, I tend to travel starting around December, you know, through March during winter. So, but yeah, yeah, I have a background in psychology, sort of left all of that academia a couple of years ago, got involved in some research project that was a little, it was eye opening, but ended up leaving.

What was the project?

It was a project looking at family, basically resiliency and family systems. And so we were working with primarily African American inner city, low SES groups. And the particular PI I was working for was really kind of really data hungry. And it got to a point where I felt ethically compromised in the work and ended up leaving. So yeah, yeah, yeah, it was definitely eye opening. Eye opening experience. But yeah, subsequent to that is when I really started doing more of this, I guess, psychedelic plant related stuff. Yeah.

So what, what did that transition look like for you from a practical standpoint?

Oh, it was, you know, it was pretty stressful because the work I was doing, it was kind of in my mind, you know, this is my life's work. And it came crashing down pretty quickly for me. So, you know, there was a sort of stress in that. And there were other things going on in life that were, you know, stressful and so on. So, you know, it was also kind of midlife. So, you know, you go through the whole existential question.

What the fuck am I doing? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm glad now I feel good about it now, but.

So, I mean, I know you because you got in touch when the crypto boom was happening and we got, we got involved there, but subsequent to that, you know, what has been fascinating and you've been kind of a, you know, a key, if not the biggest, one of the key members of the server I have, crypto sync. I mean, the stuff you were doing in South America talk a little bit about that because I think that that's one of the coolest things I've heard anyone doing, period.

Yeah, yeah, it was, I mean, we didn't go out there with the idea of getting involved in that specifically. That sort of specific work. But, you know, we were just going out there to travel. And I took two friends with me and we started in Chavin, which is up in the north, the Cordillera Blanca. And we were interested in Pachuma. So we were exploring that tradition up there. So Chavin, kind of in Northern Peru, has kind of the oldest recorded evidence of the shamanism and the use of Pachuma. So we spent some time up there and then we ended up in the Sacred Valley and got involved with the Hachumero up there.

And subsequently basically built a sort of community center. It's up above Peasock, it's like an hour up above Peasock. Peasock's kind of interesting. We were, I was there with my wife 10 years or 90 years ago, something like that. Yeah, and it's taken off the way it has. So it's definitely taken off in terms of tourism and sort of the gringo influence, which is, you know, a mixed bag in a lot of ways, particularly when it comes to medicine stuff. But the idea with the center was to basically set something up that would support the local community. And the Hachumero we're working with has, I think 24 female apprentices, he only works with females because apparently the males cause trouble.

Go figure.

So, yeah. So the idea was to provide a sort of community space for projects and then also, you know, to bring people up who are interested in. So it's still kind of being developed and I'm not sure exactly what my role will be, but I look forward to going back down there. It's awesome. The mountains are amazing.

Yeah. I mean, and also, I mean, you do a lot more down there. I mean, I don't know if you'd call it like a vision quest, but you've gone on some serious kind of inner journeys with a lot of different medicines. You know, some that I had never heard of. And I mean, I guess I'm wondering, you know, a lot of people over the past five, 10 years have gone down to South America or brought back the medicines from South America to kind of, you know, merge them and integrate them into our Western kind of American society. I think you're kind of in a unique position where you've done that, but you also recognize the critical importance of the indigenous people and supporting that community rather than just kind of extrapolating it from the place.

So what have been some of your like key takeaways during that process for yourself?

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most kind of important things that you really can do is to connect with indigenous peoples kind of on their own terms, you know, in their own voice and at least make some effort to connect with that. And it's sort of, you know, homeland and that's said, even more so, that's been more so important with the work with the Mazotek. So it's been interesting 'cause I went down to Peru and did the Holy Kuitos thing like nine years ago. And it hadn't quite, it was definitely starting to kind of blow up, but it hadn't quite blown up the way it has in the last, I don't know, it's been maybe seven years or something.

Yeah.

And there've been problems. It's getting a little more problematic. When we were in Peru, there was the situation with Olivia Odervolo in the Pucalpe area. I don't know if you heard this story.

No, I have not.

Oh, there was a Canadian that went down there and had ideas of opening up a center for addiction and it turned into a shit show. And he ended up basically shooting an elder, like an 87-year-old Shippibo elder.

Holy shit.

And it really kind of highlighted, I think a lot of the issues with Westerners going down there and trying to extract native wisdom without a real awareness and sensitivity of what's going on down there and what people need down there. So it's interesting and it's complex and requires sensitivity and a certain humility and also an ability to go, "Okay, maybe I don't know everything about everything." (laughing)

Not an approach a lot of people have who go and think they can do this stuff too. I mean, this is something I think I coined the term and I'm trying to fight against it as peacefully as possible, but bro-shominism.

Yeah, I like that.

You know, it's something I'm seeing, it's the medicine work equivalent of mixed mindfulness, right, or secular meditation that really has nothing to do with the wisdom lineages where those things are born out of. And to me, it's a very difficult issue because a lot of people go to this stuff, find this medicine, find these spiritual traditions because they're looking for something not selfishly, not to, you know, get a leg up on people because they're hurt and they wanna heal some trauma or they wanna do something, but the distance between that and quickly assuming the role of, "Oh, now I know it all.

"Now I get exactly what this stuff is for "and now not only do I know it all, "I'm gonna teach you guys who've never experienced this "after a couple of ayahuasca ceremonies." You know, it's something that I know you're familiar with and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts and just kind of seeing how this, and I know you see it also from the organizational level, some of the prominent organizations that stuff happening too. Like, what's your take on all this stuff?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, our culture's obviously an interesting place right now. You know, politically. And then in terms of just human identity and kind of searching for the soul of our own culture and civilization, I think that applies just as much to what people are calling psychedelic culture or, you know, this sort of burgeoning psychedelic renaissance. There's, you know, there's a search for identity in it. And with that, it seems like there's, you know, this attendant surfacing of shadow material. So within our culture and the psychedelic renaissance, you know, we've seen more and more of this kind of shadow side emerging.

So people are looking for alternatives to that. And when you bring it to these native communities, there is a sort of danger in it. And the danger is, you know, we bring trauma and we bring all of these things. And that stuff that we're bringing can leave a mark, you know, in these communities. So there's, you know, there's a risk in that. I would say on the other side of the equation, you know, a lot of these native communities are, they're looking for something to, you know, they want education, they want opportunities, they want these sort of things. And I see there being a sort of parallel danger just doing nothing.

I think there's a risk in doing nothing as well. So, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's a difficult, you know, it's something that probably we don't think a lot about. I mean, I'm typically thinking how we is the imperious, imperialist overlords go down and fuck up the community. But it's also totally reasonable to think that these indigenous communities see kind of not an advanced civilization, but education, various levels of wealth. And say like, listen, if we could get just a fraction of that, we could improve our lives and for our families and the people around here. Not again, in a capitalistic, terrible way, but just kind of like, hey, like, you know, maybe we could get some of this too.

And I imagine that's kind of what you're talking about with the ketos and kind of what I've heard from people who have been traveling down there where it's really turned into kind of like a tourist trap as much as anything else.

Yeah, ketos has really become kind of a crazy scene to me. I mean, to be honest, I sort of view it as an example of how not to go about this stuff, so, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely crazy. I mean, so let's talk about the mushroom, right? Because I know you were probably the foremost expert in mushrooms that I've met in terms of actually doing the ceremonies, I know you just held a lot of, could you talk a little bit about what the mushroom has meant for you and your life and kind of your understanding of what it is as a consciousness and how it interacts with us?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was interesting. I got into mushrooms young. I was about 13.

Oh, wow.

And it was a big deal, it was a really big deal for me. At the time, it was kind of sort of a light out of sort of the darkness of family stuff and it sort of remains that. But yeah, over the years, it's my relationship with it is definitely developed, so I'm 40 now, so it's been about 27 years. And there have, it's interesting because I would say that the mushroom's a little trickier, it's a little more mercurial, at least for me, than ayahuasca. So it's taken a lot of time to really kind of figure out how to use it in a way that really works. And for me, the key really has been this Mazatek tradition and the way that they do it in the Mazatek tradition, it's been kind of, I mean, I'm surprised, I'm not surprised, but it works.

The way they do it, you're able to sort of guide the experience in a way that's beneficial and when things come up, you have a way of working with it and that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, I've definitely experienced it over the course of my life as a beneficial teaching presence and it's been pretty, it's been challenging, it's been challenging at times. I've definitely made a lot of mistakes in how (laughing)

What would those mistakes be?

Hard way.

Talk about the hard way, that's how we learn.

Well, you know, if in the Mazatek tradition, they haven't fairly rigorous ethos, it's similar to kind of what they do in the ayahuasca tradition, you know, there's certain things you're supposed to avoid. And then, you know, if you're kind of fucking up in your life, it'll, it's pretty straightforward in telling you and sometimes it's, you know, pretty, it's a little rough.

Not fun, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not a fun thing. And this is one of the things that we're kind of having to emphasize and talk about when it comes to people who are, you know, interested in coming down and doing the la, then the Mazatek tradition is it's really not, it's really not fun, it's work. It's hard work.

Which, you know, it's funny you say that because I always, my main, the psychedelics that I did a lot of from 15 to about 24 were LSD and psilocybin. And I always felt that there was some level of control, even if I was taking a lot of LSD, there was some way that I could kind of interface with it that was manageable. Whereas I felt you were certainly at the mercy of a mushroom and I always tell people, the mushroom does you, you don't do the mushroom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it takes a while. It seems to have, it tests you and there's this whole question about, because there really does seem to be a sort of intelligence in it, whether or not it really likes people, does it like you or not? And I've definitely not, you know, some people, they go through a period of use where it's more recreational and it can be fun at first, but then something happens and you have an experience where it's like, well, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that is, that I've heard that from a lot of people. I've always had a reverence for it for that reason because I've just realized it's not something you play around with, right? It's something that can go sideways very quickly. It's something that will show you aspects of yourself or your surroundings that maybe you weren't ready to face when you went in thinking, like I always found it crazy that people would take mushrooms for like a night out or to go to a music festival. It's like, holy shit, what are you doing?

Yeah, I can't, I can't, I think I've, I've had one time, I did it during the day where I wasn't doing it in a more kind of discipline ceremonial setting and I hated it, it's awful. So I won't ever do that again.

So what is, what is the Mozatex relationship with mushrooms?

For the Mozatex, it's sort of interesting. You know, they primarily use it for healing. So they're using it within the context of corundarismo and typically when someone within the community comes to corundero, they're coming with something specific in mind. So when we come to it as Westerners, we're not always necessarily clear on what we're there for. And it's one of the really kind of consistent questions that comes up in front of the altar with the Mozatex as they'll ask like, why are you here? What are you, what are you doing? What's this about? What's your, you know, your reason for doing this?

So they, they use it in that sort of curative capacity. For them, a lot of it, I sort of come to realize has to do with family. And it's sort of interesting, we spend some time up in the Sierra Mazoteca with Intigarcia, who's working on this archive project. His father was a personal assistant to Maria Sabina for many years. And so we would have lots of sort of long conversations. And one of the things that he said that I found really interesting is, you know, the Mazoteca don't really like to get wrapped up in politics. So I thought that was sort of interesting. But one of the things we noticed is that their family dynamics are incredibly complex and political.

And the Kuurinderes that we work with, they go through this whole, it's really an amazing process. The witnessing of how they do this and how they interact with the altar and how they pray. But our Kuurindeera, you know, she lights candles for every family member, prays for them. There's periods during the Vailada where they're specifically focused on the candles that are for specific family members. So it's, in some sense, I view the Vailada itself as being a sort of political act for them.

Yeah, it's kind of like a modality in which they can address some of the dynamics between family members and the community at large.

Yeah, yeah. You know, Wahakans have a reputation for being complex and family dynamics and the Mazateki and Marso. And we witnessed that for sure, something else. It's, you know, it's interesting. It's really interesting.

So what's an experience or two being down there that really strikes you as kind of important for what, I mean, listen, we spoke about, you mentioned it and alluded to it, we're going through a very interesting period in history and time, right? There's, I mean, the energy that's around us, whether people consider themselves intuitive or woo or not. Like, it's pretty obvious. You don't have to be a hippie to understand that something's going down. What's something that kind of strikes you in terms of an experience you had down there with one of these ceremonies or outside of a ceremony that kind of speaks to kind of what is going on now.

And then as a tack on to that, what do you think are some of the things we should be focusing on at this juncture?

Yeah. I mean, you know, the overall nature of the experience and then connecting with that particular modality, my first experience up there was really unique in the sense that I really connected with the altar and then specifically the Virgin Aguadalupe back here. And it's sort of interesting in the sense that I think spiritually, we have sort of unusual ideas, I think, about the sacred and the divine. And I think in our culture, it probably goes back to the Greeks and there was a period in history where we lost something related to the divine. But in the sort of context of the Mazatek ceremony, one of the things that really comes through and the way that they pray and the way that they interact with the sacred is there's a sense that they're actually caring for the divine, that they're actually tending to it, that they're actually nourishing it.

And this, I think really gets into the heart of real mysticism. You know, there's a lot of discussion in the psychedelic world in the clinical sort of sphere about mysticism and what it is. I think going back to the roots of our own civilization that we had a mystical tradition and that this mystical tradition had a purpose and that we sort of lost touch with that purpose. And I think that losing touch with that purpose which has to do with tending to the divine, taking care of the divine and treating it as a living reality that maybe needs us as much as we need it has to do with some of the things, you know, going on in the political sphere, you know, the media and sort of the loss of sacred language and rhetoric and this sort of thing where it's all what post-fact, post-truth kind of thinking.

Yeah, man. I mean, it's weird how we, to me it feels like not only have we lost kind of touch with the divine or our relationship to it, it's exactly what we say. We're now losing touch with just practical reality, right? We're now warping just objective truth to something else entirely and it's bizarre. I had, you know, I've alluded it to in the servant and a lot of people know this from this podcast but I had a break from consensus reality in 2003, 2004 where I had about a three month period where everything was a giant synchronicity and unceasing. It was an LSD trip that I didn't come down from.

I was getting downloads nonstop. I woke up one day and knew all the Sanskrit chakras by, you know, how I knew them. I knew them all of a sudden. Just stuff like that was happening. It was nuts but one of the main takeaways that I can also retroactively still kind of grok was that my mind state at the time was very open, very fluid, very just kind of, oh, this is reality is very fluid. Nothing is as solid as we think it is and what was a premonition to me at the time that seems to be playing out is this is where our collective consciousness was moving as well. Whether people were gonna be taking psychedelics or not that we were moving to a reality, at least in the near term 10, 20 years where if people couldn't kind of learn to ride those waves, so to speak, it was gonna be a very, very, very turbulent process for a lot of people and it certainly feels like we are in the actual midst of that right now.

Both, whether it has to do with the psychedelic revolution or just waking up every day and hitting a barrage of just dreadful horror or just hitting our eyes and ears constantly, it's a very interesting time and it does seem like something you mentioned that this loss of mysticism, this loss of kind of connection with the divine is really a big wound, a big, open, gaping, festering wound that I think that more and more people are waking up to, but as they wake up to it, it can also be overwhelming to them, like how do we deal with this? How, and I'm curious from your end, I mean, doing some very intense work and also just being as smart and wise as you are, like what do you view from like an individual level and then maybe moving up to the collective?

What are some things we can do to kind of reawaken this connection with the divine?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think some of it is in understanding that it is challenging, you know, it is difficult. You know, particularly in regards to things like the divine feminine, which very much gets to the roots of our civilization and how it was born, sort of realizing and understanding that it's been oppressed and persecuted for a long time and it's sort of spent a long time down in a dark place where we've kind of ignored it. And I think there's a certain woundedness in that, and so when it begins to open in people, you start to feel that woundedness. And I think it's important to connect with others, you know, who are sort of engaged in this process.

And then also looking for something really authentic and following that kind of longing of this in a really sort of authentic and true way. So, you know, for me, it's been connecting with indigenous traditions and that sort of thing.

Yeah, and I know that, I mean, you brought up something that I think connects me with a lot of people, even especially the men in our crypto sync server, there is an acknowledgement and reverence for the divine feminine. And I think that is something that, again, from my experience was a very big part of it. It's truthfully, that's why I coined the term broshominism and I also use the All Mind No Heart Club because it's this intellectualizing of spirituality that I think really does a tremendous disservice that is just kind of a recapitulation of the story we've been running for 3000 years plus, where the divine feminine has been suppressed to such a ridiculous read that people sometimes can't even recognize it.

And then I think you just said something that I hadn't really thought of that when it starts to reawaken, when we start getting a rebalancing or a reemergence of it, the key word you use is feel, right? We feel it, we don't think about it, we're not intellectualizing, it's a felt thing. And I think our culture, especially in the West, we have such an aversion to feeling because you can't box it in. You can't say, oh, well, this is what it means for sure, it's just a felt experience. And I really, I mean, that to me is, it goes hand in hand with the authenticity. I think it's very hard to find authenticity without that feeling aspect, right?

That is, that is just, I think it's embedded within it. And I'd love to hear, I mean, I know that you've also done some tremendous work down south with the women in these indigenous communities too. It's not just that, can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, it's been interesting. And in some sense, I mean, I guess it wasn't prepared for some of it, but you're not really ever ready. But yeah, there's, you know, one of the things we encountered down there extensively was trauma around female sexuality and that sort of thing. And so there was quite a bit of this and it was a bit of a lead motif and a lot of the ceremonial work we were doing. And it wasn't just amongst Western women, it was amongst the women down there. So yeah, you know, apparently this is quite prevalent. And you know, we're seeing more of this kind of an awareness coming through with the Me Too movement and that sort of thing.

And it's a challenge. It's a challenge to bear witness to it in a really open way. And by openness, I mean that in some sense, it's a man. It can be hard to really understand and really know and it's actually okay not to know. It's okay to cultivate a mind of, you know, not knowing in this sort of incense in regards to this stuff. But just being open and listening, it goes a long way. And of course there's a certain sort of an honor and just the confidence of it. And you know, my goal through all of it, and I said it to several of the women we were sort of working with is to be a supportive big brother sort of presence.

But yeah, yeah, it's been something else. I know there were times where I was a little overwhelmed.

I can only imagine, I mean, hearing stories and being with people who have gone through that, I've been, you know, I say fortunate enough to women in my life have confided in me from a very early age relating to sexual trauma even in high school. It was already happening. And, you know, it is not something that is fixable right there in the moment. You're not gonna say some magic words that heal the trauma, but bearing witness like you said and just being holding space for people to communicate this stuff, I think is the first step, right? And then we can kind of look at systemically, how do we create some antidotes to this?

But I mean, it is something that, again, just likening to the psychedelics scene, and I know that we know that this is happening, right? And the clinical studies for some of these things where we're hearing stories and cases of sexual abuse and trauma where people are going to heal trauma or to find out more about themselves and then are being taken advantage of in incredibly vulnerable states, which I mean, the ripple effect from that is just, it's hard to imagine.

Yeah, yeah, that's been one of the things that is arisen in psychedelic culture that seems to be part of the shadow side of it. And yeah, it's also been a little overwhelming and a little discouraging. And has opened the door for, I think, legitimate critiques of the sort of Western method as well as the clinical method of approaching these things. To what degree is it healthy to integrate these sort of sacred technologies into a pathological culture?

Right.

And there's lots of people speaking up, you know? And yeah.

Well, I mean, what do you feel, and I know you're involved in setting up some of these new organizations and systems, but what does a kind of, what is an integration or a holistic image of using psychedelics and honoring them in a way that can heal some of the Western trauma that we have been experiencing since you and I have been born and born into? What's your conception of what this can look like? Because to me, I also feel the same thing, like I look at these clinical studies and I know we spoke about it a little bit just in Michael Pollan's book. You know, it's a very good book, but the whitewashing of women is evident.

And I don't think it's intentional, but it's very clear. So we know there's some deficiency. I mean, that's a very telltale sign that something is amiss if you're excluding an entire gender from your research, but what do you think this can look like? Not even from an organizational level, but just as we approach these kind of modalities ourselves in our small groups or individually.

Yeah, I think it's a big question mark for specifically how that's gonna happen here or if it's gonna happen at all. You know, one of the things I think working with indigenous cultures is, you know, they have certain sensibilities, particularly in regards to nature and the relationship between nature and the sacred that we somehow lost, you know? And this was particularly evident, I think in the Hachuma work up in the Andes, the specific ways they do that, their relationships to, you know, the mountains and the sacred and the ceremonial work and sort of honoring the mountains and the land and this sort of thing.

We've sort of lost that sensibility to the point, you know, and I was thinking of, you know, how do I even begin to bring this back to the United States? You know, we don't really have this sense of the sacredness of place, so much the sacredness of mountains and the sort of awareness in it. You know, there are some echoes of this emerging, I think in the philosophy of mine related to things like panpsychism, pan experientialism. But if you go back to the roots of our civilization, it's sort of interesting that I think there's the idea that panpsychism, pan experientialism are emerging in our culture, but they really go back to the roots of our culture and philosophers, like in pedocles, who really viewed the elements as being divine.

So I think that in order for us to sort of reclaim the sacred tradition of the roots of our civilization, which in my, all the use of sacred plants, you know, elusis, and then there's other sort of indications that we need to reawaken this awareness in regards to nature intending to the land and tending to sort of prophetic knowledge and vernacular knowledge, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's like, I don't know.

I know. I get that. I totally get that. I mean, it's weird because I think a lot of this does, a lot of this has to do with what we mentioned before, the divine feminine. And that does include, of course, earth and nature. And I was lucky enough to be introduced to someone who's doing an amazing podcast, Mara James, she's doing this thing called Unbroken Chain. And she is all of our guests outside of one have been women. And man, I'm telling you, listen, I love that we get to have these conversations. This is an amazing book. But hearing some of these women effortlessly speak about the connection to nature, it's just this intuitive, amazing thing.

And I think, I think the best we can do, and I love this idea of being a big brother. And I think this is one of the, you know, a lot of people hear me talk about white guys and think I'm shitting on white guys constantly. I'm a white guy. I'm not shitting on myself. What I'm saying is, is we as white men, we're in positions of power. We can either use that power to use it as a cudgel, to keep people down and beat them down. Or we can use it to say, hey, listen, there are members of our community that are not having their voices hard. They're not even being acknowledged. We have to help be their voices.

It's not right that we have to help being their voices. It shouldn't be like that. But it's our responsibility to do that. So I think, and it was something I've been trying to internally wrestle with in my own head is, how this spiritual kind of neo-capitalism, nexus point, this intersection is again, doing a tremendous disservice by only focusing on, how do we, like, here's the thing. The human optimization movement, right? This idea that we're gonna optimize ourselves to some wonderful avatar of great sentience and wisdom. I think it just misses the mark. Like we're not at the point where we should be optimizing ourselves as humans.

We're at the point where we should at least be leveling the playing field for everyone. And then we can start talking about optimizing people because otherwise we're just leaving a large swath of our population behind. And I think if we could just kind of focus more on what can we do to heal not only ourselves, but the communities that don't have that privilege, right? Not everyone has the opportunity to have a podcast or to travel and to do these things. And I really do think that it does, I'm a big proponent of working on yourself before working on anything else. But I think if that leads you to forget about everything else and just kind of avoid it, that's also not healthy.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of it I think has to do with sort of reconciling ourselves in some sense to the, you know, the shadow of human experience. And it's been, I think, I know for me particularly sobering last couple of years with the Trump administration. And realizing that this idea of progress is in a lot of ways of myth. We haven't really changed kind of the basic situation of being human for thousands of years. It's kind of the same situation we're dealing with that it was, you know, under Rome and Philip K. Dick and, you know, wrote about this in books like "Ballis", you know, that the situation in some sense doesn't change.

And there's a sort of, I think as you begin to see it, there's a sort of, it's like a danger. And I think it has to do with the archetype of being human. You know, Carl Jung wrote about this and it's one of the sort of fine points of archetypal psychology that goes unnoticed. But him and then the Gnostics talked about humanity itself as being archetypal. And that there's a certain danger in identifying with that, identifying with the archetypes. There's the dangers of inflation, deflation.

Yes.

And when you really begin to see it, I think it's a little frightening. So it requires courage, it requires a certain courage. And like I said earlier, you know, there's a dual risk. One of the risks is in doing nothing, nothing about it.

Yeah, I really like, I'm glad you brought up this idea of the human archetype. And I think that's something that struck me when I first started delving into Jung is that they're not only these archetypes that from a mythological sense, but there's the human archetype and there's also cultural archetypes, right? And cultures, nation states, governments are all archetypes. And they all kind of match up to something greater. And if we lose sight of that, they can quickly run us. I mean, anyone who has had an archetype take over their life, I have, will attest to the fact that it is one of the most powerful experiences you can have as a human being, it is you can get mystical powers, you can have psychic phenomenon, but you're not running your life anymore.

The archetype is, the projection is. And I think it does feel like this, especially in this country, that we're not running the show anymore, right? And we'd like to think we are, 'cause of course, look at all our technology, look at all of our wonderful advances in this. I like this idea of the myth of progress because you're right. I mean, aren't we having the same types of conversations and issues and problems that they were having in Rome and Greek? I mean, Greece, like these are the same, you can imagine philosophers debating these exact same points. And yeah, I mean, I think in one way that's discouraging in another way, I think at least we're still having these conversations and we haven't just discarded them completely and let the train run itself all the way, even though it does seem like that a little bit.

But yeah, I mean, I think that's a very powerful notion that the human archetype is a dangerous thing. And a theme that I'm recognizing and as I see you're speaking about a variety of topics is this isn't easy, right? This is, and this runs so counter to our culture. It's almost tried to say that we want quick fixes, that we want easy fixes, that we want, you know, for instance, just to bring it to my personal situation, I want to go to the ENT for him to run, do some little thing and for me to come out and be perfect. That's what I expect to get me my Western medicine. But that's not how this stuff works.

Not only is it not quick, it's a gradual process, but it's very challenging work. I mean, people want to be enlightened. They want to be spiritually ascendant. But I think what people don't recognize is you're going to go through hell many, many, many, many times if that's really what you're yearning for and every single mystic throughout history will tell you the exact same thing. I mean, it's something that I think, you know, people aren't necessarily prepared for. I hear so much from spiritual teachers who I've worked with and for and some of my peers who are presenting, whether it's meditation or medicine, plant medicine as a panacea, as a quick fix, go down to Peru or go to Brooklyn and take your ayahuasca and then your life will be changed.

And yes, there'll be a task acknowledgement that everything is going to be perfect. But the kind of thing that's not being said is, oh yeah, I kind of will. You know, you kind of will be dealing with all of your problems and your shadow work. And Jung was very, very smart about this. He said that shadow work isn't something that you're just going to get over quickly. It's not like, oh, I've dealt with my shadow. There it is, it's done. It's a process that quite frankly, probably left many, many lifetimes. It's not going to be something we're going to tackle in one like kind of little break. And I think that's really important that we recognize that.

I mean, from your own personal experience, what is your own shadow work kind of been for yourself? What has been some of the challenges, struggles, things, realizations?

Yeah, you know, for me, as I think with many people, it starts in family dynamics. And being, you know, I was raised in a family that's very deeply conservative. And I was definitely the black sheep or the psychedelic sheep, so to speak, you know, the family. So working through that, and it's, you know, it's a lifetime of work. And then of course, grappling with, I think, starting around the Iraq war, the culture shadow, you know, I think one of the really challenging questions, and it has to do with a sort of, it's personal as well as collective, is sort of contending with one, I think there's a natural impulse towards the sacred.

But if you look at our culture and kind of what's happened over the last 2,500, 3,000 years, there's also a very strong impulse to sort of systematically destroy the sacred. And I think that is really difficult to look at. Why is that? Why is it that we're sort of hell bent on destroying the planet and burying the sacred feminine? And what is that about? It's a big question mark, but it has, I think, to do with the collective shadow. So that's been a big question. And I know for me and many of my friends, when we go down to Peru, or we go do this work, you know, you go with certain questions. And a lot of those questions have to do with, you know, personal shadow work.

But when you get through that, then you're dealing with the big, the bigger kind of collective questions, which are also personally relevant, but there are a lot more kind of challenging grapple with.

Of course, I mean, we're not, I mean, it's hard enough to solve our own issues to try to go and, you know, send it out to the world. But I mean, the beauty is, is that I found in my life, when I do really get to the root of some of my own shadow issues, ego, jealousy, envy, hurt, fear, it does tend to carry out into my immediate surroundings. I can become a more stable force for either holding space for other people or hearing what their problems are. And I do think that gets back to, you know, working on yourself as a critical importance. You know, to your point about, you know, why we seem so hell bent on destroying the planet, it goes hand in hand with why we've suppressed the divine feminine, it's terrifying for people.

It can't be controlled, right? I don't, as many people know, I don't agree with Jordan Peterson on hardly anything. I think he's a hack. However, I do agree he does have some, there is some truth that the divine feminine does represent, does have a chaotic influence to it. It is chaos, chaos doesn't mean bad. It doesn't mean evil. It doesn't mean let's get rid of it, but it means that you can't control it. And for a culture and a society, a global society that is built on the illusion of order and kind of systemic, like, oh yes, we know what's going on, rational, this is how it goes. Nothing could be more terrifying.

And I think we see that reflected in our actions. I don't think Donald Trump and the corrupt EPA heads are like, listen, we need to destroy the fucking environment 'cause the divine feminine is gonna come out and it's gonna be controlled. It's an impulse, right? They're just led by this impulse that they, they have no idea of even how to begin to understand nor do they care to, and that's why we see this happening. Now, where it does get tricky, and I think this is where it does want individuals is, when we as individuals are aware of what's going on, and then like you said, don't take action to stem it or prevent it or shine light on it.

And that is how we get to, it's not the evil people who I think shift the kind of the historical arrow towards destruction. I think it's people who just kind of look at it and don't do anything. And that to me is where I've gotten kind of more, without getting on a soapbox, without being too aggressive about it, I'm trying to do a better job of calling attention to and calling out people and ideas and organizations that I think aren't doing that, or just aren't doing it for reasons because it's not comfortable for them, and it's not an easy thing to do, or maybe it affects their bottom line, or maybe it affects their persona.

And I think that's really important because the only way we get through Trump, that the Trump, and I don't mean Trump, I mean the avatar of Trump for what he represents, that line of thinking, that consciousness, the only way we do that is by putting our heads down and saying, listen, what the fuck is going on with ourselves? What can we do to solve our own issues? Maybe not all of them, but what can we do? And I think the only thing that's made me a little bit cynical over the past three or four months is the polarization and how the kind of Trumpian consciousness is being met by people on the other side.

And I think that is where this divine feminine is just so fucking important because yes, be angry, yes, get upset, yes, call out injustices, but figure out a way to do this that also works towards something rather than just pointing a finger at it and saying, hey, you're a fucking idiot. And that's it, yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and unless a lot of this stuff came up because the, you know, the anger, the moral outrage is in some sense a natural response to what's going on. It seems to me the issue is in really clinging to it in a way that's almost obsessive because really that sort of obsession seems to play into the dialectic that, you know, Trump's been facilitating, which is one of polarization.

Yes, yes.

So, you know, it's okay to be angry, but there's a point at which I think any reasonable person can recognize it's not particularly healthy for your personal well-being. And the well-being of others. It's not at all, and it becomes habitual too. I mean, that's the problem. And I mean, this is something our mutual friend, Roshi, Joan Halifax talks about a lot about moral outrage and how they can quickly kind of just turn into a very destructive force in our lives. And just not to mention that it can just lead to immediate burnout. I mean, it is not a sustainable mind state for a very long period of time.

It's just that's not how people are wired to function. It can maybe give you a jump start to get something going, but if you're just gonna live in that place, I mean, it's insane. It's not gonna be helpful.

Yeah, it's interesting 'cause, you know, it can lead to different things for different people, burnout, depression. And then it's interesting, then it's like, why am I depressed, you know? And then you have to pay attention to that. You know, you have to, you know, and really I see in those cases what the depression is doing is it's trying to draw you in through a deeper place inside of yourself that's closer to silence, closer to stillness and these sorts of things. And that's really, for me, what these plant medicines, particularly the mushroom is sort of trying to do is, Jung talked about, in the Red Book, he talked about two things, what he called the spirit of the age, which is sort of the zeitgeist.

And we're seeing this pouring out collectively, you know, in the psychedelic world, there's the psychedelic that zeitgeist, but then there's this cultural zeitgeist. And he, I don't wanna say contrasted it, but he also talked about the spirit of the depths and that this is really kind of what the zeitgeist needs is it's really something deeper inside of us that's calling out. And I think that's why these client traditions are sort of re-emerging them. I think that's just really what's necessary. It's just connecting with the depth.

I love that you bring this up and I'd give the analogy of our conscious mind and the unconscious, right? I mean, that is really what's going on. And I've always said to people who, I'm a big cannabis user and I know a lot of people get very paranoid when they smoke and I said, "Listen, here's what's going on." You don't have to do anything about it, but that's your unconscious and subconscious material percolating to the top. Now, how you consciously react to that is gonna determine the depths of your paranoia, the thoughts that you're having, thinking you're going nuts, that everyone is out to get you.

And as a long time user, I obviously have figured out a way to function and use that productively, but I think it feels like, whether it's cannabis psychedelics or not, that's happening now. It's just happening. And I think, yes, we have some disadvantages. We have now this technological overlay of web consciousness that if not used mindfully, and let's be honest, almost none of us use it mindfully, like some of the smartest people I know who have been meditating for 30, 40 years, they're not using it mindfully because it's specifically designed to not be used mindfully. This is designed to farm our attention and our awareness.

So of course, like, yeah, we can't use it as some like altruistic, wonderful, benevolent technology. However, we have to remember that this idea of being pulled into stillness, and I've never heard it said like that in regards to depression, I'm not someone who has a naturally depressive state of mind. I'm certainly more of the anxious, kind of hyperactive mind state, but I have been depressed before in my life, one time a very deep one after a very manic state. It does seem very accurate, that it is trying to draw you inside, not to make you feel bad, not to be a terrible, painful experience in much the ways that a serious illness or even a mild illness, like a sinus infection, can be trying to tell you something.

It's not necessarily like, hey, you're gonna suffer now. This is for some bad shit that you did in the past, but listen, be quiet, listen, what can you learn? And I think that's something that, of course, our culture does not value at all. Stillness, silence, solitude, these are bad things in our culture. God forbid we experience those things. So yeah, that's incredibly poignant. Well, I mean, where we're coming to the end of this man, is there anything else you wanna talk about? I mean, listen, you and I, you know this, we can talk forever about anything as we do in crypto sync, but we'll be mindful of our audience.

Is there anything else you wanted to cover?

No, that was good to talk. It's good to connect. Yeah, hopefully we see some upward movement in the system.

Yeah, let's-

Been quite a year.

I mean, it's been a hell of a year. I have my clients doubling back with me. I mean, the good news is, at this point, for a lot of my clients who are in the traditional market, they're now like, well, it looks like crypto is kind of at the bottom. It looks like the stock market is just beginning its descent, so.

Yeah, I, over the last year, I told out to a certain degree of the stock market, and I'm glad I did. I'm still in, but it's like, oh God.

It's gonna be interesting. I mean, I do think that one of the reasons, you know, I've always been, listen, I am very realistic about the importance of money in people's lives as an energetic tool, but one of the things that really has attracted me to cryptocurrency is this idea that it functions substantially different than the other currencies and monies and the way that the financial system has been built. I just started right before we got on the call, Ron Chernow's first book. This is, I've read every one of his other books, The House of Morgan, and it's about JP Morgan and the genesis of the modern financial system, and I'm only a little bit into it, but anything that could serve as a counter to that in whatever way possible, and I think the elements of decentralization are very important to that, is something I'm on board for.

I think that could do as much to change people's minds because listen, let's be honest, it's wonderful to have these conversations, especially when we're talking about philosophical and deeply personal and kind of cultural ideas, but you gotta wake up every day and go to a job you hate just to put food and pay the bills on your table, and let's not even say you're a die-hard materialist, that plagues people's consciousness more than anything, and the system is set up to do that. This isn't some weird phenomenon, this is what has been set up in place, so that to me has always been kind of one of the more interesting mystical components of what cryptocurrency can offer.

I mean, that's why one of the reasons I love it so much, for sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm hopeful. - Yeah, me too, we'll see. So I'll end with three quick questions and then a broader open format one. What's your favorite color?

Blue. - What's your favorite number?

Seven.

So far, we're two for two and what we like. What's your favorite animal?

Well, you know, I'm a dog person, but God, I'm definitely fond of whales.

Wow, we almost hit three for three. I mind's dolphin, so the situation, very cool. Last question, what's a practical tip that's helped you in your life that you could share with other people? Could be anything.

Practical tip.

Well, God, it's a... Mm. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, the first thing that came to mind was financial advice for my grandparents, but I don't really, I don't know. I don't view it as practical anymore. (laughing)

Well, earlier we talked about authenticity. So, and I'm not sure how practical it is. So, it may be to be impractical in your authenticity. (laughing)

So is that a big bit of the trickster motif there, the archetype of the trickster in authenticity?

Yeah, I suppose so, I suppose so.

I love it, I love it.

Yeah.

Chris, thank you so much for doing this. I'm glad we finally got to connect. I'd love to have that one again. I'm sure there'll be endless developments. And yeah, man, I just, I really wish you the best of success and luck in everything you're doing, because you were hands down one of the most interesting people I've come across.

All right, I appreciate that, yeah.

Cool dude.

Yeah, yeah, looking for Elsie on the server.

I'll see you on the server.

All right, man.

All right, peace. (eerie music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Thank you for listening to that episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Chris is such a cool person. You wanna support the show. You're like, you know what? I really enjoyed that episode. It was good. You wanna support the show while you're thinking about it. Go and rate and review the show on podcast. That's officially going to be the only request I have of listeners of this show. If you've gotten anything out of it, even if you got angry at it, go leave me a one start. Say, fuck, you know, that sucked. Do it, whatever, it's cool. I will definitely, my feelings will be hurt and I will probably stew about it.

Like that Fraser episode where that one guy says something bad at him and focus group, it's what I'm gonna do. But it's cool. I get it. The fact that you took the time probably means as much to me is a nice review. That's bullshit, it's not true. That's a lie, but whatever, do it, I don't care. All right, thank you. Have a good week and I will see you next week.