Comedy, Context and Nuance with Jack Carroll

[Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome to Synchronicity. My guest is Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you 2019. If you're listening and this is not the beginning of 2019. Sorry. It's 2019 now and it's the beginning of it. And it's great. I hope you everyone had a good holidays. Whatever you celebrate, whatever you were doing. If you don't celebrate, still hope you had a good time. New years, festivities. Hopefully we're good for you. I've had the stomach flu, which I get once every never. I don't get these things, but kids, my friends. You have kids, you know what I'm talking about? If you don't have kids, you remember being a kid?

You probably don't remember being sick that much because it doesn't seem to affect kids in the same way it affects adults. When you get sick as an adult, it sucks. It's not fun. No fun stomach flu. Getting over that, feeling better. But yeah, really though, even despite that, having a really good start, one of the unintentional benefits of a stomach flu. I really do mean this. I really can find the silver lining in anything. Is that I've been eating nothing, not that I'm trying to lose weight. But there is something to be said with a fast, where if you just really don't eat a lot of food, what it does to your state of consciousness, and that's just an interesting phenomenon.

You get a little more lucid, a little more clear, and it's kind of pleasant in some ways, and kind of not pleasant in other ways. So I've been interested to see a kind of the relationship between that. But trust me, I'll be eating food again soon, hopefully, as soon as I can. So my guest today, now we will get to the guest, Jack Carroll. Jack has been on the podcast. I think a couple of times before we were talking about right after this, that we want to do it more regularly. He's one of these people, just a genuine friend, who whenever I have a conversation with, I end up learning so much just about everything.

And it's weird, because he's younger than me, and he's just kind of young in general. But he evokes wisdom. And I think it's because he's genuinely curious about things and experiences he has. And I think that's just a refreshing way to approach a lot of the things we talk about. So in this episode, we talk about a ton of cool stuff. I feel like I say that every time. It's like a mental, not a mental, a verbal tick, a ton of cool stuff. But when it happens to be true, most of the time, what else are you supposed to do? One of the things we spoke about, though, that was particularly interesting for me, was Louis C. K.

And kind of the outrage cycle that can be summoned up so easily, and specifically talking about myself, just kind of how this fits into the context of our broader culture, recognizing nuance and subtlety and context, and all of these things gets increasingly difficult. It seems the way our current media landscape is shaped. And how do we kind of subvert that a little bit? And what is the power of kind of comedy, and also just the ability to subvert a train of thought, not in a negative way, but in a positive way, is kind of like a mental interruption to really give you a chance to analyze or look at what you're doing.

And how that is a skill that I think we're going to need to be developing more and more over time. It's just a fun conversation. I can't really give you too much more information that you're not going to glean from it. Jack is, in case you don't know, an incredible comedian based in the UK, is on TV shows, movies, all of these things that people do that are like, "Listen, this person is talented. We've got to get him in front of a camera." Jack is really, really, really, really talented. I've known for me, I've known him since, God, 16, I think. So to see him now as an adult, kind of just like getting, you know, forming his identity and achieving success is always just very cool to see.

Anyway, that's it for this intro. Keeping it short, let's get you to the show. Without further ado, here is Jack Carroll. [MUSIC] Good buddy. You're on. I mean, you're lying. The magic of technology. [LAUGHTER] I say that through gritted teeth. Of course. I've just struggled through some sort of elliptic dystopia to get on the podcast. No one ever says the magic of technology in a positive way. It's always pejorative. [LAUGHTER] It's always just a horrible, sort of passive-aggressive phrase. How you doing, man? Yeah, I'm good, man. I'm good, you. I'm all right. I've had a stomach bug for the past few days, which I never get, and I'm completely unsuited for, so I've just kind of been dealing with that.

But kids are germ machines. They literally just pick up every horrible virus that could exist they get. It's insane. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the thing I've sort of realized in the four or so years since I've stopped attending education. It's like, how ill I was getting was directly proportionate to the amount of unclean people I was mixing with throughout children, not cleanly individuals. It's insane. I'm realizing since I left school until I had Eli, I don't think I had ever really been sick in between that period. I got the flu once or twice, but every time I thought I was sick, I think I was just being a pussy.

Because when you actually get a virus or something, it's like, "Holy shit. The fuck is this?" Yeah, well, I'm all right, though. I'm on the mend. Yeah, that's good, man. Lots of probiotics and just try and keep those sort of parasitical things that are in your stomach up there. Yeah. It'll be sound, but I think it's the way of those things, because they do seem quite biblical in the proportions. It's pretty nuts. I mean, there's some clear wisdom to illnesses. You get in a weakened mental state, which I think is obviously uncomfortable, but I think it also leads to approaching the liminal boundaries between reality and unreality a little more clearly.

You know what I mean? It's an altered state of consciousness. You just start questioning everything. You're never going to be getting all these things, and it just leads to a lot of introspection, which can be kind of an interesting thing. Yeah. It's like those tribal things, and they inject the people with poison to then bring them through the side. Exactly. It's like a microcosm of your own mortality method. I don't know. I'm getting deep within the first five minutes to come. Of course. My advice probably should have just been there. Texting medication. It's funny because as we were just talking about this, I know we were talking about numbers yesterday, I think it was, or two days ago, and one of my synchronicity numbers that has always been is 222, and I saw my time.

It was 222, which reminded me about our conversation. So you asked me a question, you know, about seeing numbers. And what's interesting is I get this number. I get that question a lot. People ask me about numbers. You know, they're seeing them. What does it mean? And, you know, there's the spectrum of, oh, well, you're just paying attention because you've been seeing them, too. There's some kind of mystical, you know, relationship between what's going on. But I'm curious, what prompted you to ask the question? Because I've been, every time I look down at my phone or the cork on the oven in the kitchen or anything, more often than not, it will be a repeating number, usually a derivative of three.

And that's been going on for a couple of weeks now. But I think the healthy way to approach it is that I am paying attention to it more because there are also instances in the day where I look down at my phone, it's just a regular number. So I am paying attention to it more like that's a fact, but that doesn't mean that it's quite interesting to think about if there is a part in what the reason is for it. Well, the other aspect of it that I think kind of just dismissing looking at numbers over looks or just that you're paying more attention to them is I think there's a correlation between your active interest in those and not just because they're repeating numbers.

And I know you specifically asked about three and what I didn't, you know, you asked me on Twitter messages and I'm like, it's too much to type. And I wasn't just doing that so we had interesting stuff to talk about. When I had my very big kind of transcendent, extended period of time transcendent experiences, I actually had forgotten about this, but multiple friends would remind me that I was obsessed with the number three, like beyond obsessed with the number three, not only was I seeing it everywhere, just it just seemed to resonate at a very strong level. So what I was saying is this one thing that I think gets overlooked when people say, oh, well, you're just noticing it more because you're paying attention.

Yeah, there's all those other times you're looking and you're not like, oh, that's not interesting. But there is something underneath that that I think has resonance that if we can consciously be aware of it and attach meaning and significance to us shouldn't be overlooked, and one of the reasons that's kind of helped me flesh out this idea was Crow Jung, right? He, when he was kind of coming up with the conception of synchronicity, he didn't come up with it, but really, you know, doing expositions on it, he would say that's the kind of undefinable quality of a synchronicity, is that meaningful component to it.

Because someone else could be sitting right next to you, see the same number, you see the same time on the clock and be like, oh, that's nothing. I mean, it's literally nothing to me. And therefore it has no significance of does that mean that it's not significant? Or does it, you know what I mean? Like, so it's a very, very interesting kind of phenomena where someone can look or over a period of time, say a few weeks, see a number repeating over and over again. I personally, here's why I told you said, is it good? Is it bad? I mean, this is why my answer was it's, you know, neutral to not bad.

I hesitate to ever say something is good or bad when it comes to this type of stuff, because I think we try to ascribe, you know, those qualities to pleasant experiences and not pleasant experiences. And that's kind of a limited way of looking at things sometimes, you know what I mean? Because sometimes when you have really shitty experiences in the moment, it's terrible, like for me, we're just talking about it. I'm on the toilet having fucking diarrhea all the time. No one wants to go through that, but I guarantee you, as soon as I'm recovered, I'm going to be so much more appreciative for not having going through that.

So that's why I say like with numbers especially where there's not kind of an anthropomorphic quality to these things or a specific connotation, there are really interesting kind of tools to kind of plumb the deaths of the unconscious. So the reason again, I said it's not, it's neutral to not bad is. I tend to look at numbers as kind of primordial archetypes, right? They have qualities associated with them throughout history, throughout time, reported history and also intuitively for us. So when I see numbers repeating over and over again, I try to get underneath the surface a little bit and rather, you know, thinking that some extra dimensional being is trying to contact me or trying to show me a message, I try to get into the numbers themselves and be like, well, what are some things associated with the number three?

What are some things associated with the number two? What do these mean throughout history? And then that can kind of lead you on a trail to kind of understand the significance of what's going on. And one other thing I know I'm talking a lot here, but I think it's important, is you mentioned when you go and try to research these things online, you know, you're getting the most ridiculous new age, you know, pitching to people going through women, you know, who are stuck at home going through mid-life crises, it's true. It's so easy to write bullshit. You know, I put numerology in the same category as astrology, right?

Numerology is a really fucking potent and amazing tool. So is astrology, but it's really easy to be a shitty astrologer and just, you know, cater to people's wants and desires. So it's important to look at these things from multiple different perspectives. And I would almost always, unless it feels very negative or very like blessing and graceful to try to ascribe qualities to number situations, because I think they really very much are neutral in the sense of, you know, good or bad, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, definitely. I think there's a couple of things there. Because three, I don't know, it's never a number that's come up a lot for me before.

And three always strikes me. I think it's because of 13 and all that sort of thing, even though that's a Victorian invention and relatively recent. And the fact that it's an odd number, it's always struck me as a little bit creepy. Yeah. The number three. I love 13, it's my favorite number. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, that's, you're just like, that's because you're one of them gong kids and much in horror movies all the time. I can't watch horror movies, to be honest. I really can't be too scared. Well, yeah, I think so. I'll do some of the reading as far as the significance of the derivatives. Thank you for pointing me in the direction there.

I think that'll give me something to think about. And then also, I think that's a good point that you raised there. Because of the advent of material science and people think people are naturally suspicious of any of this sort of stuff, they throw the baby out with the bath water a little bit when it comes to astrology or numerality. You know, people get, I think people get instantly turned off by those quite loaded terms which have been hijacked by people who are trying to make the lives a little bit more interesting than they necessarily are. And then, you know, they don't actually look at the roots of the disciplines really and what they're actually trying to get at, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like when the atheist guys say, well, you know, we believe in the same number. You believe in one God, what about all the, you know, other three thousand sort of things? Like, they're not archetypes that have existed throughout the entirety of human history since we could, you know, first look up and conceptualize the sun. There is a strange backlash, I think, isn't there? Yeah. There is. And I find myself, right before we got on this podcast, I was on Instagram and an astrologer, I really love posted something. And then I saw two posts and it was just, it was impactful, it was resonant.

It made a lot of sense to me intuitively. And then I saw two other posts from people talking about consciousness related things. And they just hit me as completely devoid of meaning and authenticity and resonance, right? And I thought that is a very interesting thing, right? Because yes, we're dealing with the scientific materialist paradigm where these things are often pejoratively looked at. But on the other side, we're also seeing, I think everyone feels, or a lot of people feel, that our world is changing, right? Not to get too new agey, but it does feel like we are in the midst of a transition into some other different type of paradigm.

And just saying, you know, the world is working differently than the past 150 years. I'm not saying we're moving into some age of enlightenment and everything is going to be utopian society, but it feels like the way our minds are working, the way we interact with each other is completely changing. And if you want to be reductionist about it, you could say, oh, well, the Internet is doing that more than anything. It's not actually us. But one of these things that I think is born out of that is that people can kind of sense that something is happening. And for those who maybe aren't interested in really getting to the root or trying to understand what's happening, it's very easy to kind of say, oh, let me just take the facade of one of these mystic arts or traditions or sciences and use that as kind of a job, right?

Or use that as a way to generate content, use that as a way to generate attention towards myself or whatever it is. And that puts, it makes it very tricky, right? We talk about kind of walking the path of enlightenment as a razor's edge. And I think trying to maintain that balance without going too far into the, oh, let's dismiss this side or too far into the, oh, this is just completely, you know, we're going into the age of Aquarius, utopian, you know, fantasies is a very difficult dance. But the reason I bring this up is something I've noticed about you since from the first time we met is you have a very, what I refer to as a very intuitive person.

The questions you ask, the things you're interested in, the things sometimes that happen to you, that you're not interested in happening, you know, you're very much in touch with that. And all I can say is that's a quality that in my life, walking through it and meeting a lot of different people is a rare quality. So don't let that, you know, ever get stamped out in any regard, not that I think it would be with you, but it's an important thing to kind of have in your arsenal of trying to dissect what these things can mean, you know. Yeah. And I think, thank you for that. That's a nice little bit of an ego boosting game in the new year.

I'm just going to go around. I'm going to buy like a wizard hat and go around all the sort of local hipster areas. I'm going, I'm hugely intuitive, you know, asking girls for the mobile phone number with that's my tag line that I'm hugely intuitive. But no, I do think that that's an interesting thing. And I think I keep, that keeps coming up for me. It's like that search for meaning is not always going to be fun because it sometimes means that I what if myself into submission like I'm, it's the sort of mind equivalent of having to fight Mike Tyson, there's like 500 punches coming at you and you don't know which to you know, which to parry and which to try and get away.

So that's the thing I'm like, it's not always going to be fun to mess about with these ideas and sort of think about them, you know, do do this sort of intellectual joust in that. Well, I mean, I think there's two components of that. I think any type of genuinely, yeah, any type of genuine, you know, pursuit of anything, whether it's knowledge or wisdom, just anything is going to not be pleasant at some point, if it's genuine, it's just something that happens in life. It's part and parcel for what goes on with that. And then the other component of it is is that if you find yourself kind of intellectually jousting with yourself or ideas in general, that can be, and this took me a very long time to realize someone with an overly active mind most of the time, is you might then want to slip into these intuitive states of mind and try to not discern the answer to something, maybe even at all, but if you are trying to discern the answer, not through intellectual means, but through feeling means, through intuition and things like that.

And that's a hard, you know, truthfully, I think, and I hate to generalize here, but I think it's accurate, I think women have a much better time or easier time doing this than most males, I know, most men. They can drop into an intuitive state of mind and maybe not use facts or logic to figure out the best course of action. And this isn't all of the time, of course, but that's a real skill that I think, again, just in our current culture, is very much devalued, right? And I really do like, I know exactly what you're talking about. I mean, I think the period right before I would say I kind of let go of trying to control the aspect of my metaphysical reality was really preceded by exactly what you're talking about.

He's very kind of painful, maybe not the exact right word, but uncomfortable conversations in my head, you know, where you're just going back and forth and, you know, this one concept will completely revolutionize your idea of what the world and reality is, and that can be a very disorienting experience. I think, like I said, that was what preceded me just kind of being like, you know what? Sometimes I'm just not going to fucking know the answer to this. And that's a really important point, I think, to get to, and not that we maintain that throughout life, or at least I don't, but that's like a very, very useful kind of life strategy I've found.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's like a certain point. Yeah, because I was talking about this the weekend, actually. It was like, at a certain point you go, well, is the idea serving me in any way? And if it's not, then, you know, probably best to stop thinking about it and go and live in the world a little bit. Totally, totally. You know, because that's why I think, like, at a certain point, it is good for life to get in the way of this sort of thing, because it takes you out of, you know, out of taking things too seriously, which I try not to do. Because I think, you know, the fact that I always try and see the funny side, hopefully, stuff is a good, gives you a good level of perspective, because you can never let yourself get too bogged down, hopefully.

And even when you're in it, you know, it can feel like you are, if you're in a, you know, trap-tinner cycle of thoughts. But I think the end, you look back and go, oh, no, there was actually something else was going on there and what I thought was going on wasn't actually the case. Anyway, you know, let's try and see the funny side of it, which I think gives you a good amount of perspective about those sort of weird, slightly uncomfortable situations. Totally, I used a couple of things there that really strike me. I'll go in reverse order. Clearly finding the funny things in life is one of the best skills anyone can have, because it can immediately turn a very dark situation into something light.

It's like the quickest alchemy one can do. So that goes almost without saying that it's just like an tremendously important thing, but I think a tendency when people get it, like, listen, how quickly could a conversation about synchronicity and numbers delve into a very serious discussion about the meaning of all of these things? But if we can look at it kind of a skewer, you know, a little bit sideways, we don't have to take it so seriously all the time. And that is always, whether it's a psychedelic trip, you know, a self-induced intellectual trip, an uncomfortable situation at a party, like humor and being funny is always a great way to kind of get out of that.

And that's just a fact of life. And I mean, I know you know that as it's your job, right? I mean, this is something that you refine and hone as your skill and craft. So I'm sure that's occurred to you and you know that. But it really is applicable to every single aspect of life. And I would say particularly for the people who really are interested in metaphysical things or things that are kind of more ephemeral, if you forget that, you're out there. You're out there hanging out there and it might not be so comfortable. Yeah, that guy at a party who keeps talking about Alistair Crow, even though nobody wants to listen to it.

That guy, you like him. Exactly. I was summoning demons in the, you know, in my basement the other day. Nobody wants to hear that, man. You know, you need to just put on some family guy and relax. Everything's cool. Everything is that, but you see it in, there seems to be two types of synchronicity things that happen for me. And one of the, one of the types seems to have a really, really good sense of humor. Do you know what I mean? I do. They seem to, it seems to be the punchline of some like grand joke. You know, it works on the same mechanisms as a really good joke. Yes, yes. It's the cosmic wink is what I call it.

It's very, it's very clear when it happens. And again, it's one of the easiest ways to discern synchronicity when it's just like, it's so ridiculous and improbable that you can't do anything but kind of laugh and acknowledge that it's going on. Of course. I mean, that's like one of the most common types of synchronicities. And I think over time, the more that you experience synchronicities in general, the more that all synchronicities kind of take on that quality. Do you know what I mean? It's easier to see them, more is the cosmic wink rather than kind of like the punishment of God. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, not all humor is nice, is it? No. No. I actually, not to pivot too hard. I'm curious as to what you think about Louis C.K.'s leaked comedy sets. I've listened to the first five minutes. This afternoon. I thought it was really funny that first five minutes. And then I listened to the dead kids routine and isolation. And I thought that that was like, that seemed really like new material. And we've all been there when we've performed a routine for the first or second time. And we've added a line here and there. And then it comes out of your mouth and you go, "Oh, that was a horrible thing to say.

Why did I say that? It's not funny. It's just terrible." And I think that first five minutes where he's talking about buying a gold watch and not being able to sell it really made me laugh. But the dead kids better could see why people got upset about that. But then again, you know, don't record a guy who's working through material. And that's just an isolation without all the sex scandal stuff familiar in the year. Right. And it's hard. I think it's... I asked you about this because to me it was one of these moments where I really actively try not to get caught up in the outrage cycles of what's going...

It's so easy. I mean, everything is almost catered to be... Not almost. It's catered to be outrage-inducing because that's what generates clicks. It's what generates discussion. It generates content, ultimately generates money for the corporations running this stuff. So I really try to be cognizant of the fact that I don't want to do that all of the time. But then I saw out of context, I haven't heard the sets, haven't listened to them at all, but I saw the two things that people were really harping on, the parkland survivors kind of jokes and the trans stuff. And a lot of the think pieces that I came across were like, "This guy's going to be on Fox News before you know it.

Like, this isn't comedy, it's just kind of mean-spirited." But then I started reading more because my Twitter is basically just comedians for the most part of my friends. And I started hearing what you're saying, which is, you know, sometimes you're working on material and you're crafting it on stage. You know, you can write the joke beforehand and you may think it's funny in a certain way, but it's really based on the response that you're going to get. And to have someone kind of pull this out... You know, this isn't a comedy special if you put it out. This isn't something he's refined and polished and said, "This is great for the world to see.

This is someone who's at a small gig in Long Island and recorded it surreptitiously and put it out there. And then on the heels of his sexual scandals, just, you know, plays terribly." That's why I was very interested to hear your opinion because it's... I think it's so easy to fall into like, "Oh my God, Lucy Kay is just the worst schmuck of schmucks right now. He's tone deaf. How does he not understand this?" But then when you look at it kind of from a different perspective of, "Okay, well, this is a comedian just really trying to craft something to see if it works." And it clearly didn't really work given the context of where he's coming from.

Those two jokes at least. And yeah, I find it interesting because I was immediately outraged. I'm like, "That's a fucked up thing to say." I'm like, "And I get that he's a comedian." But like, you know, there's got to be better targets than kids whose friends died. There's got to be something funnier than that. I mean, like, we're in an age now where like, Netflix just dropped like 37 stand-up specials yesterday. Yeah, I think that the 37 stand-up special, I think that's just like the end times for comedy. I think that the bugle of the Four Horsemen of the apocalypse, like, it'll just be, there'll be a special, it'll be like an episode of Black Mirror or something.

It'll be like a special every second, and every premise will be made by artificial intelligence. Yeah, it's definitely like, it's funny that you think it's kind of the death knell for comedy in some ways. I mean, I will say this, let's just try to watch, you know, the vast majority of these. I started with Neil Brennan as the first episode, and it was obviously hilarious because he's hilarious. Excellent, he's really good. God, he's funny. He's just a funny guy. And the other thing is, is that he has this very, I think really good comedians do this thing where they both are likable and unlikable.

And that's kind of a Louis C.K. Hallmark back from his old days. It's relatable, but not always likable. And Neil does an amazing job with that of kind of being like a lech, but also like an incredibly likable and relatable person. In a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah, I think you've got over that empathy. And I think that's why the things that Louis said and the things that a lot of good comedians say do not look good in print because there's no, there's no context then. Yeah, they take the routine out of a, what was it, you know, hour long set that he'd done, and then, you know, take that out of context.

And people don't know what preceded that to get the energy up to that point, because it's not like you've gone up and said and done that routine. So where, you know, there'll have been a little bit of lulling and coaxing the curtains to a false sense of security. It's funny. I think the reaction that the crowd seems to be having, where they go absolutely insane, you know, off the back of the scandal, whatever you think about that. Yeah, I think that's Louis being a creep rather than anything very malicious like the other ones. Yes, I mean, I grew up talking about it with my dad and I said, listen, you know, if one of your friends told you that he did that, you'd probably still be his friend, but you'd be like, what the fuck is that guy's problem?

What are you doing that? Like, what happened in your life to make you go do that? I'll still, I'll still be Louis friends, but I'll just go and meet him at the coffee shop. Yeah, it's very interesting, though, and I think the context in that situation, and I think you keyed in on it. I think the way it was presented to everyone is that it was such a lack of empathy, and it mirrored so many kind of alt-right talking points, especially with the trans stuff and the gun, you know, what wasn't framed as gun control. I think the way it was framed and the way that social media kind of like virally takes over with this stuff, once that gets going, it's like the snowball effect, because now a couple of days later, you and I can have a conversation about this where I've kind of come off of the end of like this guy's an irredeemable prick. I think I actually treated that. I treated that, okay, I guess he's an irredeemable prick now, and then deleted it like five minutes later, I'm like, that's a douchey thing to say.

You shouldn't say that about anyone, especially about someone. I think what drew a lot of people to his comedy is exactly what you're talking about. There's an empathetic quality to it that humanizes fucked up things, and that's a real, again, alchemy. That's something that's dealing with shadow stuff out in the light in a funny way, which actually can heal trauma and fucked up things more than anything else. And I think when things are presented out of context without any sense that this person has any empathy for these things, it is very easy for the masses to turn, like almost instantly. Yeah, I think you would have thought that he would have been a bit mindful of coming off the back of the year that he's just had.

But then again, why should people censor the material? It's a really difficult sort of moral thing to negotiate. Because why? Because he did the things that he did before he was a famous comedian. He's now no longer allowed to make jokes about taboo subjects. I don't know whether that's really, whether those two things correlate very well or not. Yeah, and I mean, you also have to take into account his psychological mind state at this point, right? I mean, I think there was the point where he was talking about who's upset, he can't use the word retard anymore, and someone gave him a look and he shot back.

Like, I don't give shit anymore. Like, my life's over. Like, I can say whatever I want. And I think that can be a very freeing and liberating state of mind, but it can also be something that gets very dark very quickly. And then that's when you get dark and quickly, you know, when you get dark and it happens quickly, that's where I think empathy starts to kind of get pulled away from the life force of what makes good comedy, good comedy. Obviously, good comedy is somewhat of a subjective term. Like, there are millions and millions of Larry the Cable Guy fans out there. And I, you know, his voice is funny, but I mean, in terms of like an hour special, you couldn't pay me to sit through it.

So, clearly not just like an objective, oh, this is great comedy. However, I think there's a type of comedy that he's kind of embodied or not pioneered, but has carried the mantle for that I think if he loses the empathetic quality. You know, then it becomes a very tricky kind of, you know, seed and navigate it to so to speak. And that's why I just, yeah, yeah, it just becomes a fat white guy run in the way you know. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's why I asked you that question just because I know you would have a more subtle take on it because I saw various comedians wang in and some of them are just like as simple as like they're just words lighten up and it's like if I called your mother a cunt, you're probably not going to be like, hey, they're just words lighten up. So there does have to be this awareness that it's more than they're just words lighting up.

But I do believe that we have to understand the context of the situation and recognize that like maybe it was just a bad tasteless joke that gets worked out after a few sets, you know what I mean? That seems like one that might get dropped if you do enough for, you know, if he was going on to do the hour. But I think both of those sort of polar opposites of he's a terrible right wing sort of dickhead and also they're just words lighting up. They both sort of conveniently get rid of any context. Right. Right. Both of them. Both of them are sort of fulfilling the same function. Aren't they? I've neglected to think about the bigger picture surrounding the guy.

That's where it gets kind of weird and this stuff meshes into other aspects of life that aren't just kind of comedy because that's what we're seeing happen. We're pretty much losing the subtleties of context, at least in media. You know, all over the place. And I mean this not just, you know, from politics and everything else, but even what I was referring to before in the kind of consciousness scene. We lose the subtlety. We find these hooks or words that attract attention and then kind of use their magical properties to like, you know, conjure up attention. It's a very weird thing. And I think truthfully, it doesn't seem like it's going to be stopping. It doesn't seem like it's going to be ramped back or scaled back.

So I think that again puts kind of the impetus on us or the importance on us to kind of figure out how to bring in more context and subtlety. And again, I think it ties back to the intuitive aspects of this stuff, you know. Yeah, I think maybe I mentioned last time I was on the show about like how things have sort of seemed to have devolved into professional wrestling. Yeah, yeah. That there's like this, everything, I think because of social media, maybe it's a little bit simple to, maybe it's like letting within as, you know, before social media. But it's certainly been accelerated by social media is like context and nuance are basically dead unless you look really hard for them.

Yeah. So it's like, you know, how do you, but that, but then again, like this is the thing I've been thinking about recently is like, I would think I'm quite nuanced, but then also do you just get to a place of like apathy with that. And how do you balance those two things because it could, you need to get enriched about some things. True. That's really true. But because I've been trying to integrate more nuance in some ways of thinking, I've stopped getting as enraged about things that ones would, you know, go on Twitter and bang the drum with hashtags and all that other stuff which I think needs to be done for societal evils to be rooted out.

Yeah, and this is where it gets kind of tricky, right? Like, where is the right balance between moral outrage and action and recognizing that if you can look for more nuance and subtleties, that maybe you're not going to be as praised and upset about everything or a lot of things, which let's be clear, unless you're just being nihilistic about it or apathetic, that's usually a clearer and more lucid state of mind. You know, you're angry and upset about things, even if your moral righteousness is a hundred percent justified. That's not a very, you're not going to come up with like the best plan ever over a consistent period of time and be able to execute it because it's a very heightened energy intensive state of mind that really like it's very difficult to maintain.

There's a lot of kind of building the framework of what you can do to actually enact change rather than just yelling at something. And I do wonder kind of where, you know, that line moves culturally or globally in terms of like how we deal with big problems in the world because not for most people right now, just in my limited experiences, whether you're right, left, up, down, whatever it is, it feels like things are kind of like breaking apart at the seams for a lot of people, you know. And I think maybe, you know, maybe you need a political and social asteroid occasionally. Yeah, and then reset everything afterwards, which I think a lot of people would argue Trump is doing in this country.

I think, unfortunately, I think Neil Brennan in this special had a great joke. He's like, listen, you know, a lot of Trump people say, why do you vote for him? And they're like, well, I wanted to shake things up, wanted to shake things up. And he's like, yeah, you know, you don't want to shake up is like the pillar of society, which is your government's like, maybe try to go shake something else up. Like, shake something else, but it's, you know, it does feel that very much feels whether we recognize it or not, that things are, this is kind of harkening back to what I'm saying about we're moving into a different paradigm.

I think we're going to need to find ways and it's going to be up to those of us who want to do this to find the more nuanced subtleties in context for these things. I think it's going to be really important that we talk about this and actually put into action based on our kind of ideologies related to this, some type of new blueprint. It doesn't mean we write it down and ship it off and here's our new platform and subscribe to us, but, you know, it could be as simple as like just having a conversation about Louis CK and fucked up things he said, and not just immediately following on the side of what a schmuck I hate it.

It could be as simple as that. And I don't, I really, and I, of course, man, like, you know, I catch myself doing this shit all the time. I literally had this thought before we got on the call today, because I noticed like a pattern of mine that I just noticed today. What I think for the first time is that I get very much interested in a certain topic or route of intellectual pursuit or whatever it is around my kind of feeds and social groups and all these things. This is particularly related to kind of consciousness and spirituality. And then I get after a certain point, not disgusted, but very disillusioned by what I see I've created around myself and what I've turned into.

And I'm like, why the fuck am I? Is that like, that's like a terrible character flaw because what ends up happening is, is you're talking about all this stuff you love it. These people are great. These people are great. And then you get disillusioning like, Oh, God, fuck this. And it's like you start over. It's a very weird thing I've noticed that I've been doing. And I'm trying to understand if it's, you know, a psychological flaw or an invitation to kind of delve into the actual root of why I might become disillusioned with something. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think it's like, that's healthy though, I think as well, to have that sort of be able to stand back after a certain point because otherwise you'd just go mad.

Yeah. You would get so into it. Well, I have it when I do, when I do like the super left wing gigs for this, um, Joey Corbin guy over here. It's like, um, I have the comedian's temptation is to rally against the status quo. So if the, if the status quo of the gig happens to be a super left wing, right on, let's, um, you know, let's redistribute wealth and all this, you know, sort of left wing sentiment stuff, then my temptation is to go on and say the worst things I can write, right. And just to, just to shake that status quo off a little bit, like I have that, that sort of streak in me and they, you know, that change is depending on what my, what my scenario is because in the, in daily life, I'm fighting against the right wingers, but then when the, because they're the predominant force, but then when you get to the place where the left wing is the predominant force, you go, hang on a second. You guys need to be checked just as much as they do. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm really glad you brought that up. Yes.

Yeah. So no, I find myself doing that a lot. And I think it's healthy and means you have a sense of perspective, rather than just being a sort of mindless idiot. Yeah. I think that's an amazing kind of take on it. And I think it's probably pretty accurate, although it doesn't necessarily relieve the kind of uncomfortable position where, you know, you've created, at least for me. You know, one thing that I, I say this with no ego whatsoever, been blessed to be good at, especially in an age where it actually gets you paid money a lot of the time is I can build communities relatively quickly and not, you know, just by numbers, but I can galvanize people.

Around a topic or situation quickly. And what ends up happening sometimes, though, is I'll galvanize people around a topic or bring people into the fold and then do exactly what you're talking about. Go to the left winging, see everyone talking about how great social progressism is and then be like, God, it's really, you know, it's like a very weird situation. But I mean, again, I do think that that stems from something you're talking about, which is an honest pursuit of what I will in a highfalutin way refer to as kind of authenticity or the truth, right, which is you don't want to get pulled too far to one extreme at any given point, right?

That is, that's when you get dog dog McCann seep in, I don't want to definitely get dog mad at, but it's when dog dog McCann seep in, and it can really start to kind of warped people's perspective about what should be done, what shouldn't be done. And that's like, I mean, I think if you're just looking at kind of a lot of the ills of the world, that's the root of them, right? Yeah, definitely, man. I think that's why I really like Robert and Tom Wilson, just like there's a, there's a real, and, and I showed someone Robert and Tom Wilson like some of his writing the other week and sort of what does he call himself an anarcho sceptical?

Yeah, yeah, that again, written down makes you seem like a bit of a dickhead. If you like, it does, don't it? Like, because they then heard it in his lovely sort of New York lilt, and they then, they then heard him talk and the thing. So, that, that would, I think, turn you off a little bit if you just saw that written down, but the reason why I like him is because there seems to be a healthy scepticism and humour and perspective running through all the stuff that he does, and, you know, it's that thing of not believing you're on rap too much. It's funny, Robert and Tom Wilson is someone I got into relatively recently, a couple of years ago, and I think I was drawn to him in, for the, or not drawn to him, but resonated with a lot of what he was saying, for those exact reasons is that he's really challenging the status quo as much as possible, but then also challenging the anti status quo as much as possible too.

And that's, you need that, and that's where I think my main kind of deeper thought recently has been about the resurgence or hard emergence, not emergence, but really very forceful spiritual materialism we're seeing in this day and age, and also recognizing that as much as we need to call that shit out and be like, listen, this is just a money grab, this is just nonsense, this is just pedantic bullshit. There's also a lot of valuable stuff that we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwarp with, you know what I mean? And that's, that's kind of where my mind has been focused because I'm trying to figure out, like, I have a podcast network with a lot of podcasters with a lot of different perspectives, some of which I routinely agree with 100% of times, some people I've drifted far away with in terms of ideologies where I'm not sure why they're doing what they're doing.

And I try to figure out like the next direction of at least how I speak about these things on the podcast and just in life without kind of pulling the rug out from people who maybe have been following along. And that's why I always love my conversations with you is because you just pull shit from your personal life. You're like, I'm seeing a lot of numbers. I think I contacted a dean. Yeah, definitely. Well, it's more, it's, I think, you know, you need to be aware of these things. You do. But yeah, I mean, I think there's this, there's this very, you've helped me a lot just in this conversation of recognizing that it isn't necessarily just me being an asshole when I kind of revolt against certain ideas or things that are happening.

And I do try to kind of evolve my thinking as much as possible rather than just like throwing away parts that don't suit me because I don't think that's healthy either. You know what I mean? Like, try to continue some thread of empathy and compassion and wisdom. And also, I think, like, again, a really good litmus test for any of this shit. Any of your beliefs is if you can find any type of humor or laughter and this stuff, because if you can't. Yeah, but again, it's why Robert Anton Wilson's really good because I've heard him like somewhere just between either really dry materialist speakers or really sort of dry hippies.

And it's like, you got, oh no, this guy is an absolute breath of fresh air, because what you've got there is too, I think it is people, a lot of the time, who talk very seriously and earnestly about any of this sort of materialist side. Or the spiritual side, trying to just make themselves more interested in them actually are. Yes, yes. And with that, you sacrifice some self-awareness. Yeah, and I think also, like, the vitality of what it is you're trying to talk about. And I think it's noticeable, again, I've noticed that comedians, like I said, I follow three types of people on Twitter, follow my friends, I follow comedians and crypto, just because I'm interested in it.

But comedians have always held such an important place in my mind, not just because you feel good when you laugh, but because they're always, it seems, the good ones at least, in my estimation, are always searching for that nuance, or always searching for that kind of subvertive take on something that maybe we all just gloss over and never pay attention to, that once it's pointed out, it's like, oh, shit, that's hilarious. So I just think that, you know, I've spoken about it before, I think one of our first conversations we had is that I do think comedians are kind of the new philosophers of our age.

And I think that's why it's very interesting when we're talking about very famous comedians going through difficult experiences, or not funny, or public outrage experiences, to kind of understand what the broader context of what that means for us as a society, you know? Yeah, and I think that's the thing is that every issue, so every issue becomes one of social media, because of social media becomes one of, like, cosmic importance. Right. And it's all magnified, and it's everything's rushing, and it's like the end of a Marvel film where the city's about to explode, and that's whether somebody, you know, whether a grocery store didn't have a gender neutral toilet.

And it's all of huge, huge importance, and then, you know, that's how everything is discussed. So it's weird to do comedy in that, because stand up comedy specifically is quite a limiting form to discuss those things in some ways, because you can't, because of humour, you can't go on about every variable at length. Right. You know, then it then there wouldn't be jokes. So it's like, how do we negotiate comedy in this sort of age where everything's got to be discussed to death? Yeah, it's really an interesting point you made too, and also not only the outrage that is so easily in the high intensity of it all, but also the transience of it all too.

Like, people are going to forget about this particular Louis CK incident. As soon as the media decides there's something else more interesting in that realm to focus on. Yeah. I think Louis was probably thinking, god, I wish I could have brought Bill Cosby or Patrick. Yeah, it's so true. Or maybe Les Moonves does some comedy or something. It's really interesting. Dude, I hate to do this, but I got to go get my kid. I wish we had like another two hours to speak. Maybe we can do it in the not too distant future. Yeah, man, definitely, because I'll have some stuff to promote and talk about later on sort of in February time. So we'll just definitely do it again.

Before we go real quickly, though, what do you have? I know you have some stuff coming up. What's going on, bud? So I've got the, I don't know how much I'm allowed to speak about, but things are happening with the movie that I shot in 2017 and that's all moving and things should be happening with that in the new year. And then I've got a couple of bits of acting coming out in the UK in the new year as well. So we'll sort of, and then bits of writing that I'm sort of waiting to hear back on. So we'll wait and see what happens with those. But it's always good talking, man. I think it's interesting. There's a battle going on between order and chaos.

Yes. And I don't know whether, you know, from the hair-brain conspiracy theories blogs that I've read, I don't know whether either side has that many good people on it. So we've got to stay somewhere in the middle, I think. I think that's a really good perspective to have on it. Before we go, I'm going to ask you my quick questions and then we'll do this again real soon, man. And obviously we speak on Twitter all the time. Yeah, definitely. But what's your favorite color? Blue. What's your favorite number? I said 10 last time, so I'll say 10 again. What's your favorite animal? Dog. And practical tip that has helped you in your very long life of wisdom. What has helped you? I don't think that you can share with them.

I'd say I said it last time, but I think it always needs to be said again. Physical exercise. Huge. Clear some of the shit out of your head, so you're a little bit more calm to be able to think about things. That's so true. Dude, Jack, always an immense pleasure speaking with you. Nice one, man. I think we covered a lot of ground there. We did. We jam-packed it full of great stuff. Yeah, just hopping around topics. I love it. Hello, man. We'll speak soon. Nice one, man. Definitely. Thank you for having me on again, Noah. Thanks, man. See you, man. Bye. [Music] Thanks for listening past the music. I hope Jack is the coolest. Go check him out, whatever he's doing. I hope he gets some more exposure over here because he's just a genuinely funny person.

I want to give you a little heads up for people who are listening past the music this far. Next week, I will be starting a promotion with a new company. This is not a joke. I know I've done a lot of joke things, but I wanted to give kind of a rundown of what my criteria will be for using any type of monetization strategies, sponsors, advertisers for this show. Really, as much for my clarity as for me explaining it to you, but the truth is this. If I'm advertising a product or if there's a sponsorship or monetizing in some way, first things first, I have to actually have used it and liked it and felt confident that someone else would like and use it too.

That could be broad depending on how ethical I am. So that's not the only thing. Second thing, arguably just as important as the first is I need a personal douch. In this case, the sponsor is going to be a four-sigmatic. My friend, Kelly McLean, from the Dow of Comedy podcast. Pregnant is the baby. Here he is so close. I know, Kelly, good luck on that. It's going to be awesome. It knows the owner of four-sigmatic and said very clearly, they're legit. So I would need a personal vouch from someone if there's going to be a sponsor. So I know that these people are legit and not just Huxters. That's the second thing.

The third thing is it really needs to be something that is in line with the spirit of the show, right? I get that this could eliminate certain sponsors because there's no direct correlation. I'd have to reach hard to kind of line it up. And I know this isn't how other podcasts do it, but I think the kind of ethos of this show is that we're sharing genuine experience from whatever modality and paradigm other people are bringing their perspectives and keeping any type of real advertising with that. It needs to be kind of a prerequisite. So you're not going to hear weird things for brain-enhancing pills that are specifically designed to do this stuff.

It's going to be shit that it's like, "You know what? It's a mushroom coffee. I don't want to drink caffeine. I like this stuff. It makes me feel better. That's good." I haven't tried the fourth astigmatic stuff yet, so you'll be having to wait till you hear from me about which products I recommend and why I would like them. And if I don't like all of them, I honestly would go back to fourth astigmatic and be like, "You know what? This isn't going to work. I can't recommend this for someone because I don't actually enjoy it." And I promise you that this is going to be my ethical kind of line with this stuff. And I know I'm over explaining here, and I know that it may be completely unnecessary, but one of the things that's important to me with all of this stuff is trying to navigate the line between ethical capitalism, ethical money-making, and running a show that I think really has its roots in the spiritual or kind of ephemeral ethereal world, right? And I think some people have a easier time than others doing that.

I don't have a particularly easy time navigating that course. I think my ethical boundaries are a little too sensitive at times in terms of being realistic about supporting a show. So now that I've completely over-shared and made the outro over a brilliant and talking that is normally featured in the intro, it's in the outro now. Big thanks to everyone listening. I will see you with another episode next week. Lots of love. Bye-bye.