Stories, Music and Social Action with Rena Jones

(upbeat music) ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ ♪ This is synchronicity ♪ (upbeat music) Ooh, I kind of like my new intro there. It's a good song. Spot the sample, win my respect. This week, my guest is Rina Jones, who is a musician based in Portland, has really had a very cool and storied career, which we get into briefly a little bit. We delve into her art and kind of, you know, her, the genesis of the ideas behind her art, and she reveals a new project that she's working on, or just have the idea, the concept for her new album, which she's gonna be working on soon.

We get into all of that. We don't really go too much into the technicals and particulars of her art, because we really had a fun and fascinating conversation about a lot of different things. You'll hear, I got tuned in to Rina through basically the synchronicity, where somehow we connected on Facebook. I really don't know how, truthfully, but I know that we had interacted through our mutual dislike of Jordan Peterson, or distrust in kind of just calling out the more pernicious sides of Mr. JP Lobster King over there. So I was listening to my Spotify discover, as I normally do. You'll hear this in this episode, just to rehash it.

And her name came up and I'm like, and the song was really good, actually. I heard the song for us and I was like, "Hey, the song's good." Then I saw her name like that name sounds familiar. Lo and behold, it was Rina. And we're also, which I cut off at the beginning of the actual conversation, is we're both learning Python three, coding, programming, just weirdly. (laughs) Don't really have a specific reason. Just feel like it's a good skill to have. Got some time. Why not? So, yeah, you'll enjoy this episode. I can almost promise you that, unless you're Jordan Peterson fan, and then you'll probably feel a little weird about it, but then it'll be okay to feel weird, and talk about how everyone's racist, and how everyone does fucked up shit, and that doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, but to kind of give you a little boost of mature and grow up and look at some issues in a different way.

And we're also discussing this, not as though we have all the answers, but just some things that have worked for us. You'll hear, you'll hear in the episode. So, as I mentioned last week, this show podcasting, right? Went over it last week. It's all about making money, those Benjamin's, those Bucks, those Euros, those Bitcoins. That's why we do this. If not, why are we doing this? No, it doesn't make sense. So, we have a new ongoing relationships with various sponsors. This week's sponsor is actually patience. Patience is the newest sponsor of this show. Good for almost every situation, especially if you find yourself getting frustrated or angry, patience is wonderful.

Highly recommend it. They're a big time sponsor. Hopefully they'll be contributing again to this show, just 'cause they cut a big fat check, and it's fucking awesome. So, thanks to the people at Patience, really appreciate everything you're doing, and a good general thing to you. So, go to your local store online, purchase as much patience as you can, and then you'll be on the road to pretty much great things. Okay, so that's the, sorry, I know I gotta do these. I know some of you are like, hey, you know, this is a podcast, we're here for the interviews and the conversations, and you know, the odd musical thing you'll put in, you know, we don't really wanna hear your ads for sponsors, but hey, listen, you know, you gotta do it.

Every show does them because you have to do it. So do it, and that's what they told me, and that's what I'm doing. So, Patience, thank you, last week, my garden saw huge, huge results, big uptick. I will say, unfortunately, dear, dear have been eating my cucumber leaves and cucumbers, and I'm pretty upset about it, and there's really nothing I can do. I think what I might do is build a fence around my fenced in garden area, so like a two layer solution fence, which I guess is a kind of a good idea, but also kind of just seems like weird, but I think I'm gonna do it. So, I don't know, and now I'm just gonna be talking about my gardening intros.

So, yeah, this week's episode, very good, big thanks to the Patreons. I finally, like the person who desires not to be an asshole, sent thank yous to people who contribute on Patreon, because I, listen, I get what you're doing, I do it too, you're giving your money, whether it's a dollar, three, nine, a hundred, whatever it is, you're taking your harder dollars, however you got them, and you're putting them towards me and the show, and that's fucking cool, and I appreciate it. So, I decided not to be a douche, and I was like, hey, thank you. I just want you to know, whenever I get this every month, it is put to good need, I really appreciate it, and so thank you for everyone on Patreon doing that.

I'm trying to figure out how to use Patreon in a way that fits in to my life creative flow that is also valuable for people who wanna contribute. So, rather than saying, I got some new cool new stuff, and it's gonna be this, it's gonna be that. I don't know what that stuff is. I'm not sure how it's gonna fit in. I'm thinking some type of live interaction thing we could do if we maybe wanna like group vote and pick a topic, and maybe a guest and have it be like a group podcast-type thing, we find a cool guest and whatever. Maybe some mind-pod network people, whatever it is. I don't know what it is, but I know there's a way to kind of make it cooler than it already is, and if it really is something that kind of demonstrates it's good for the show in terms of actually like, you know, putting out more, I don't wanna call it content, but when I do something like make a little song or have a fun chat with someone or write something that I think is cool, I'd like a vehicle to share that that makes sense, but you know, it's for people who only want that.

I wanna be blasting that over the internet. There's too much shit out there anyway. So, anyway, just trying to reconcile my relationship with the awesome people who support this show. If you don't wanna support it or can't support it financially, do leave a review. I am asking you to do that, 'cause be honest, I want more reviews. I'm a junkie for the reviews. I shoot 'em up, I read them, and I stroke my ego, and I say, man, this is, I'm the best. And I need more of that, 'cause, you know, the goal of everything is to inflate the ego to the largest point possible so you can prove that you're better than everyone else, so we know that.

Okay, okay. Definitely, officially, rambled on too long with this one. Let's get to the episode you're saying, and I'm saying yes, let's get to the episode. So, without further ado, here is Marina Jones. (upbeat music) Let me just say thank you for coming on the podcast too, that I really appreciate you taking your time and, you know-- - Sure.

Interesting how it came-- - Thanks for inviting me.

Yeah, of course. I mean, we can go ahead and just say we're reporting now that that's good for you, or we can do a little pre-recording thing, it's up to you.

Yeah, it's fine. I mean, I'm sure you'll probably, you might edit it a little bit too, right?

You'd be surprised. Most of the time, I don't edit, just because what people really wanna hear is like conversations between people. Very rarely is there something, I mean, if someone comes back and is like, "Hey, I said something, I don't wanna say." I'm not gonna be like, "No!" (laughs) 'Cause you, maybe it must go out as we recorded it, but, you know, usually it's cool with people, but I did just like, I really appreciate it.

So keep the swearing to a minimum.

Swearing is totally cool. All I have to do is hit the little E button before I publish the podcast that says explicit, which I do most episodes, because I'll usually swear in the intro, so.

Okay, yeah, I have a button now, so.

That's okay.

So it's been a trample online a lot.

No, it's totally cool. I feel free to curse, whatever you want. But, you know, I'm really excited to speak to you for a few reasons. One is kind of how this came about. It was very synchronic for me, which is obviously a hat tip to the name of the show, but you popped up a song of yours. I didn't even see your name, I was listening to it. I listened to the discoverer on Spotify every Monday as I drive my son to daycare. And I was, the first song was, "Open Me Slowly," right? Is that what it's called?

Yep.

Yeah, and I was listening to it. I was like, "Oh, this is a really good song." And I went home, looked what it was. I'm like, "Oh, this thing, Rita Jones, "like, sounds really familiar to me. "Why is that familiar?" And then it clicked that we had briefly come into contact on Facebook through, I think, a mutual dislike of Jordan Peterson. So... (laughing)

Well, we've been connected on Facebook for a while. I have no idea how it got connected. I have a lot of people on my friends list because when I first started my Facebook profile, I used it only for promoting art, my music. And so I have a lot of connections. I have no idea how I got connected with it. (laughing)

That's so funny.

But yeah, we've been connected. And yeah, I saw you posting your disdain for Jordan Peterson and yeah, I'm right there with you. I cannot stand him.

Yeah, and I often feel like it's like, well, it was also just amazing that there was a really, a song that I enjoyed, recognized the name and then could piece it together that someone was actually connected to and interacted with before. I thought it was really cool. And then what I found even cooler is when I went through kind of your discography and your just who you are and kind of your artistic flow, you know, you had really come up with some pretty cool concept albums, both in terms of the music and the ideas behind them, just to give people a sense of what I'm talking about who are listening, you know, your album Transmigration and 2005 was about reincarnation.

2006 Driftwood is about the cycle of life. 2009's Indra's web is about interconnectedness and then 2013 Echoes is about duality. Which, yeah, amazing because these are all concepts that we've probably spoken about on this show and just in my life for two decades at this point, a long, long time. And I just think it's really cool that A, I have an opportunity to speak to you and be that you did all of these things and that again, another weird synchronicity, we both happen to be learning Python at the same time, which is like really weird. I have never, like I said, I've come across HTML and CSS from doing web stuff before, but I never had like the mind, like I'm going to learn coding and I just started this like three weeks ago, a month ago, not even, so funny.

Yeah, that is funny. Well, and speaking of another layer of synchronicity, so on my end, you know, I actually literally just finally had the solidification of the next theme for my next album. It really kind of clicked in the last like month. And so I'm already now deep into composing my sixth full length solo album. And this one is, in particular, the theme is about the power of words. So the stories that we tell and how that shapes our reality, the history that we choose to portray and how that can really have a massive influence in our culture and how the stories that we tell really shape our society.

And so, you know, getting into talking about the themes, like you said, all of them, all my albums have themes. So like for example, Driftwood, Driftwood is probably the more literal of all of them. It's about the life cycle of a tree in particular. So from "Star to Seed" is the very first song, and then, you know, it kind of goes through the whole life cycle of a tree, photosynthesis and all of that. And then eventually, you know, is Driftwood of a dead tree washing up on shore. But, you know, echoes and Indra's web, I think a lot of those are a lot more suggestive. One of the things that really was really profound for me when I first started writing "Down Tempo" and ambient music was a huge influence, was Brian Eno.

Yeah, of course.

And yeah. (laughs) You know, in an interview, he talked about how he really likes to create spaces for people that really allow the listener to kind of paint their own story within the space. And so that's something that I feel really passionately about within all of my art is to kind of create this theme in this space that is open enough and big enough for the listener to really have their own experience within it. You know, I feel like I've really done my job if people come out to me afterwards and are like, "Oh man, I really want to sing on this "or I want to do something on this." You know, and it's like, cool.

Like you're having your own experience to it. It's making it your experience. And it's a very fine line, I think, between being too bare and too overdone, and that, you know, it's a very magical space when you can leave it that open for people to really have their own experience within it. So. (clears throat)

No, it is. - With that said.

Yeah, that's so cool. No, I was gonna say that, it reminds me, I was having a conversation with some of my friends who were make documentaries yesterday. And we were talking about this thing about, we were referring to as purity in art, which was essentially how to navigate in a world now that commodifies content, right? So quickly and so easily, how to maintain and really get in touch with that aspect of creating art, whether it's music, visual or anything else, and allowing that to kind of, you know, seep into what you're doing so it can resonate with other people. And this concept of space that you're bringing up in the music, especially for ambient music, is amazingly poignant and resonates with me a lot because I think that's what caught me on the song on Spotify, opened me slowly, is it really was one of those things where I was like, wow, like I can sample this, I can hear voices over this, it's just like a very resonant, deep kind of penetrating song.

And sounds really. So I love that that's kind of like a conscious intention when you're creating this stuff, that's really cool.

Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. I mean, it's, you know, with, for example, the new theme that I'm kind of thinking up, it's like, you know, I really, I really want to be able to tell the story and have people understand, you know, the message that, you know, the words and the stories that we tell are powerful, but doing it without being literal, you know, it's gonna be really, it's a fine, it's a fine balance and it's gonna be really hard to, you know, do it without like having obvious spoken word and, you know. (laughing)

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so I am gonna be working with a choir on it.

Cool.

And, you know, hopefully also kind of weave a little bit of a social justice message in there about, you know, just, you know, basically that hidden history is, you know, negatively impactful on cultures that where their history is suppressed.

Yes.

And so I wouldn't, I'm also hoping to, you know, donate some of the funds to reviving in Dungeness history and things of that sort.

Oh, I have a friend who's doing that now, who's really doing some amazing work with the indigenous cultures in Peru and especially the women down there who have kind of just been, you know, shifted to the side with all of the Iowa scarows. Like, they're not incredibly prominent down there and there's a lot of trauma and I think it's really important that we focus on that type of work. Like, I think there's like a hierarchy of what people in modern countries should be talking about. Like, if you live in a privileged country, you should be helping people who maybe don't and have harder times in other places and respect and honor their cultures, especially.

In the same way that, like, one of the reasons I rail against Jordan Peterson so hard is I'm supposed to be a Jordan Peterson fan. I am a white guy in my 30s who grew up in a middle-class background who is feeling, you know, the crushing weight of the economic problems and stresses in this country as much as anyone. But I obviously can see that this is someone who lacks compassion and is kind of twisting their own narrative into this, you know, really hard to understand situation. And I feel like it's my responsibility as like a white dude to be like, "Hey, this is bullshit." Like, don't fall for this thing.

So I think that's really cool that you have that in. I mean, let me ask you this. How, I mean, you've been making music for a long time. You've had a really cool career. I mean, I was reading on Wikipedia that you revolved with Digi Design and Pro Tools and a lot of cool stuff. How has kind of this philosophical or kind of esoteric exploration kind of weaved its way into your life throughout this?

Oh.

That's an interesting question. I don't know, maybe can you elaborate a little bit more 'cause that's a big broad question.

Yeah, it's a very, very broad question. I totally get that clarification on it. So, for instance, like, I went to a music college after high school, a lot of what influenced my exploration, although it wasn't the genesis of it, of kind of looking into things like reincarnation, Eastern philosophies, even Western philosophies and mysticism with psychedelics, right? I had, I call it the benefit of doing psychedelics at a very young age when I was 15, when my personas weren't even like totally crystallized into anything. So that obviously has had a profound effect on everything in my life, from my relationships, to my professions, to my decision to go to a music school and always recognizing when I'm creating art that there is this connection to something that's maybe a little less tangible than what we see in everyday life.

So that's something that's always kind of there with me. What I find is really cool is a lot of artists I know. Their art isn't thematic in the way. They're not saying, hey, this is a theme about reincarnation. You may get to have a conversation with them privately and they'll say, yeah, of course, I'm super into mysticism. I love this stuff, I love that stuff, but to explicitly kind of embed it into your art, I think is really, you know, it's a conscious intention and I'm curious to see how that kind of evolved in your life.

Well, I had a similar story. I mean, I also started psychedelics when I was, you know, in my early teens and stuff. It's not something that I have in my life at all now for many years, but it definitely shaped and influenced my art, absolutely. You know, I also got to be a part of some, you know, reissue lost tapes of Terence McKenna. So, you know, there's a lot of esotericness in my art and through my vision. And I agree that there is a level of kind of tapping. And, you know, I don't want this to sound arrogant, but there is kind of a sense of tapping into the divine when you reach into a deep meditative space of creating.

I mean, a lot of these tunes that I put out, I can spend hours and hours and hours. I mean, the most recent release that I put out, which was a remix for Sophie Barker, The Former Singer of '07. And that came out, I think, in December of last year. And I spent six years on that one song.

Yeah, I get it. (laughs)

So, but not all songs are like that.

Oh, Tony Sully, I wrote in a day. And it's still my best seller, you know, after all these years, it's, I mean, I get a ton of plays on Spotify for it and Pandora's Box and, or Pandora, sorry. (laughs)

Maybe Pandora's Box, yeah. (laughs)

Same thing, really.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I mean, and I think that there is definitely like a deep meditative space for me. I mean, I really feel like music is the way to express the inexpressible. And, you know, for every theme album that I'm working on, it's usually something that's, that I'm deeply meditative about. So for example, Echos, you know, it really, I was seeing the rise of fascism throughout the world already because I was a world traveler for many years, you know, touring and playing festivals in Europe and England and stuff. And the rise of the far-right, you know, fascism was happening several years ago. This has been, you know, Trumpism has been in the making for maybe almost a decade now.

And I was really concerned with seeing that. I didn't actually foresee, you know, what was gonna happen in the United States when I was riding Echos, but I could tell that there was, that energy was rising around the world. And so Echos was kind of a mantra to that, to kind of what I saw as like kind of healing the division. There's a roomy poem on the front that I don't know if you, if you read that, but it's, "We are the mirror as well as the face in it. "We are tasting the taste of eternity. "We are pain and what curious pain both. "We are the sweet water, "or we are the water and the cold water and the jar "that pours."

I can't remember the exact poem to a tea, but it's really, Echos is about how we other each other and how we can, you know, kind of the duality of being able to put somebody into an other box and dehumanize them.

So us first them paradigm, right?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, you know, that the album Echos was real, really kind of meant to be a healing mantra for the energy that I was seeing sweeping the globe and it still is. And, you know, it's kind of shocking to me after I wrote it, you know, 'cause it was, like, came out in 2013, so five years, five years ago. And so to see where the country has gone, since then really was shocking to me, 'cause I didn't, I didn't imagine it to get this bad.

It's a little too prescient for what you intended, yeah.

Yeah. (laughs)

Yeah, I don't think many people saw it. I mean, it not only has gotten bad, it's just gotten beyond weird, too. I mean, which I think, which is why I think, I mean, this idea for your new album is so spot on. I mean, just, it astuns me and astounds me every day, basically how narratives now, rather than kind of working as these under mythological, kind of subconscious things that influence things, they're just like overtly used as cuddles to shape people's psychology. Every day, it's so fucking crazy. It's just like, and I mean, I don't say this as though I'm outside or above it. Like, it's being done to me constantly.

It's just, yeah. - Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're all affected by it, and it's, you know, I mean, and that's the tricky thing, right? You know, I mean, it's, well, I definitely think we're very much in a, you know, Orwellian space right now, where up is down, left is right, you know. I mean, the world really does feel upside down right now, and it's not something that's limited to the United States. You know, I have a lot of friends in the UK who are feeling the exact same thing. I mean, it's, you know, Brexit is a very similar demographic to Trumpism, you know, xenophobia, and, you know, the very otheringness of others.

(both laughing) I like that term.

Right, but, you know, and it's, you know, it's where we're gonna go from here. I think to, to heal as a society in general, I think is, is gonna be around the stories that we tell, right?

Yeah.

I mean, I, I firmly believe that, you know, history has been suppressed, right? History is written by the victors.

Yes.

But I think that the way that we can heal as a society is to truly tell our stories, and, you know, that's starting to come out with, you know, like the lynching memorial that was just directed recently, and, you know, kind of the taking down of Confederate statues and things like that. And I think that, you know, there needs to be more of, with indigenous history, you know, and unfortunately we're going the opposite direction we need to go in that. I know that Texas just pulled out their history books on Native American genocide, which is the opposite direction of where, where we need to be going with that, in my opinion.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy. I'm reading a book that my wife gave me called Blood Moon, which is a pretty detailed account of the Cherokee towards when, you know, the United States started and getting themselves involved, and basically just taking their land and pitting them against each other in various ways. And it's people I don't even think understand just quite how horrific this was, like the history of this country isn't. And that also, I think I do think it is a karmic debt that people who reside here carry whether, you know, intentionally or consciously or not. I mean, the history of this country, I've inadvertently become a history buff because I started listening to Hamilton, like a year ago and got super sucked into it 'cause he's a genius Lin-Manuel Miranda.

So I then listened to Ron Chereno's, Chereno's biography of Hamilton, then Washington, now I'm listening to Rockefeller. Like this country has some severe shadow aspects to it that really it shouldn't be surprising that we're getting there. But what you're saying I think is incredibly poignant and powerful is if we want to kind of reconcile and deal with this shit, rather than just turning away from it and be like, no, like there was never any genocide in Texas. What are you talking about?

Right, right.

If we really want to deal with it, we, the antidote is kind of truthfully and honestly telling our stories as we're experiencing them, not pretty them up so they can be consumed in a more tolerable fashion but really just kind of like being people. And I think luckily I do see enough instances of that type of media or whatever you're calling it being accepted that is, especially with younger people, I do see there is this craving for that, right? We want to see the real stuff. We don't want to see these doctored kind of nonsense things that kind of everyone knows intuitively don't make sense. So, yeah.

Right, well, yeah. And I think that the time that we're living in is very, very unique, right? I mean, I'm assuming you and I are about the same age.

Yeah.

But, you know, I'm a Gen X-er so I--

I'm a little, I'm technically a millennial but I'm like the old millennial.

I'm 35.

So, you're Zennial, I guess. You're kind of that weird little image.

Yeah, in between.

It's very, I'm so acutely aware of how in between by generation is.

Yeah, I'm definitely a Gen X-er so I'm a little older than you but, you know, and it's interesting because, you know, I grew up at a time where, you know, I didn't have computers and then I had a computer.

Yeah.

The computer was an Apple IIC. And now we're, you know, we're in this age of information where, I mean, I'm calling it kind of and a lot of people I guess are calling it like a great unveiling, you know? There are so many parts of our history and, you know, you know, who we are as a culture that used to be hidden that could be hidden when I was growing up. But now you can't hide racism, you can't hide, you know, all the social justice issues that are, that have kind of fueled and been hidden underneath the surface for so long in our culture. And now everybody's having to take a deep look at it.

And I think also Trumpism is a response to that. People are like, wait, shit, put that shit back in the box. I don't wanna, I wanna look at that. I don't wanna be considered racist. But, you know, it's like, oh yeah, you are so as everybody. I'm sorry, but everybody in this country is a little bit because the system is built on racism.

On racism, right.

Why, right, our country is founded on white supremacy. And that's something that can't be denied anymore. And I think that eventually our, you know, there's going to be a swingback from Trumpism, which will kind of, you know, but it'll be like an equilibrium that will kind of balance it out eventually.

I'm really hoping so. I have seized my political prognostication after Trump, just 'cause it seemed like such a far-fetched idea. And then it seems just retrospectively being like, oh yeah, I know this actually makes a shitload of sense. So I don't give my present self much credit for like trying to guess what's happening. But I do think that sounds pretty reasonable. And I mean, I think your point to that everyone is racist is something that is worth repeating just because I think when we do social justice things or we speak about things very much ethically or morally in a morally responsible sense, we can quickly kind of make a jump that, oh, well, we're not like that.

We never do something like that. But, you know, the truth is, is if you're profiting and have profited from an in equal system or an unequal system, that is systemic racism that you're a part of. And I think like a lot of people get upset by that. Like, I kind of look at it like this. Like, you know, for meditators, they'll get this or you do something wrong. You did, you lied to someone or you did something you should have visited someone and you didn't and then you chastise yourself over and over again. You feel terrible about it. You shouldn't do that if you realize that you're racist. You shouldn't hear that and be like, oh, I'm the worst person that I should never do that.

You should be like, all right, where am I racist? Like, what can I do on a personal regular day level to kind of like not be like that, be a little more mindful? And it can be as simple as just saying like, yeah, I kind of cop to being racist sometimes and it's not okay, but I'm at least getting it out there in the open so people can say, okay, you know, you don't have to be hiding and pretend no one's being racist 'cause that's what creates these situations.

Right, right, by saying that you're not racist, you're kind of perpetuating a system 'cause we all, everybody, you know, that is white in this country benefits to some degree or another by the system, we didn't build the system, we didn't ask for it.

And if you don't think that you don't have black friends or people of other color friends 'cause you would know very quickly, should ain't equal, real fat. - Yeah, no, no, no, you know, I mean, it's heartbreaking to be watching some of my friends raise their children in this culture, you know, and it's, I want to do everything I can to help see that their generation has just a little bit better, you know, I mean, we can't expect to eradicate it all, but we can try to create a culture that's more tolerant, more considerate, I mean, there's always going to be the die-hard racist that we can't ever change.

And it's unfortunate that that's the way it is, but we can do what we can by educating people, telling stories that broaden people's understanding of what is going on, and then, you know, hopefully create a system that's more fair and just.

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. And I love that you keep bringing up the story aspect of this 'cause this is how we individually and collectively form our reality, right? I mean, it's-- - Right, absolutely. That's it, if anyone, psychedelics are not, you know if you change your narrative, things change around you quite quickly. I mean, this is in no small part why this show is called Synchronicity, is because I had a very long and prolonged experience where everything was a synchronicity unceasingly through waking and dreaming, and you realize really quickly how if you shift your internal narrative, how everything can shift, and you can't necessarily, you know, do that consciously all the time, but it can happen.

So, yeah, I mean, so in terms of stories that we can be telling, outside of, you know, the very obvious things about systemic racism and things that I think you and I, you know, are aligned with, especially on social media, like what are some stories that you think aren't told enough that people should be aware of just regularly?

Well, I think in general, women's history is completely suppressed, you know? I mean, you know, it's amazing to me how many people in our culture think men built everything. It's like, no, actually, like it was a woman who invented jet rocket fuel that got our--

Oh, yeah, just even recent stuff, too. Yeah, no, I would fight for you.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, women's ideas are plagiarized, you know, suppressed, they never get awarded for the things that they create. But then, you know, you go back even further, and like, you know, most people don't realize that like, their society was, at one point in time, a little bit more gender-balanced. There was a natural linear society.

That's right.

And it was the church that systemically committed genocide against women for centuries.

That is correct.

And most people don't understand that as history and why that has led to the extreme gender imbalance that we're seeing around the world. And I think that that's also another part of history that the world would benefit from seeing examples of societies that women were empowered.

Yes, have you read, it's one of my favorite books. It's a posthumously published by Joseph Campbell Goddesses.

Oh, I think I've heard of it, but I haven't read it.

If you can, I highly recommend it because he goes into very deep detail probably as good as anyone who could have done it about those cultures, about what they were comprised of, how they functioned, both the positives and negatives, but I will tell you this, that exactly what you said is true. It's like the church came in and basically suppressed and we can see this even with modern examples of religion and various ideologically right versions of Islam, like in other countries. And this is something where I always, this is where Jordan Peterson fits into this, is this idea that femininity, divine femininity, women, the feminine, is this unmitigated chaos that can't be reckoned with, that needs to be suppressed because, oh, they'll lure people away from the path is a very, very dangerous, very, very dangerous concept.

And it's just before we got on this podcast, I was having a back and forth with this guy on Twitter who was arguing with me about Marie Louise von Franz and I said this was Carl Jung's primary translator. And he's like, no, she wasn't. And he's just going through this whole long barrage and I'm like, dude, he said it, she said it. I pulled up a copy of the obituary. She traded translating texts that were too ancient and archaic for Jung to translate in exchange for analytical sessions. But it just was another example of this guy getting into the semantics of something, but totally missing the point that if you're gonna say women equal chaos equals bad and that's the place from your launching your argument.

Like, you, A, you don't understand Jung, Jordan Peterson, but B, you're really doing not just like a cultural disservice, but a major, major psychic disservice to men, women, and the culture in general. And that's really where they should just--

Yeah, I agree. - Yeah, this stuff.

Yeah, I mean, his use of evolutionary biology to justify hierarchies is dangerous, and, you know, it's trying to critique Jordan Peterson as like trying to nail Jello to a tree, because he says so many things without saying anything, but then all of a sudden, you know, say something that's so deeply problematic that it's like, whoa, you guys, like this is dangerous, what he's suggesting. And, you know, and it's, I think, what also is dangerous about him is that he appeals to a very disenfranchised young male archetype, which, you know, our culture, I mean, let's be honest about this. This is my generation, Gen X was the first generation in modern history for any woman's generation to have the level of freedom of movement that we have.

I mean, my mother could not get a credit without a man's permission. So, you know, things for my mom were totally different, you know, than they are for me. And I think that society tells men that if they do good, if they get a good job, if they go to school and they play by all the rules, they're going to get a wife and a family, and they're going to get, they're going to be rewarded with women, right? That that's really their reward. They're prized, and there's a lot of men waking up realizing that's not the truth, and that they're angry about it. They feel like they've been sold a bad deal, and they have.

It's not fair to men and to think that women are, it's kind of an old playback to women as chattel too, which is something that our society is still trying to shake. And I think that, you know, Jordan Peterson and characters like him really speak to that disenfranchised man, but he's selling them a bad pill. He's basically saying, you know what, you're right, actually hierarchies are justified. You really should, you know, be angry about this, and you should try to force the world to be back the way it was. And it's not going to happen. Women are not going to go back into the kitchen. We're not, you know, I mean, clearly, you know, we have a government that's wanting to create that right now, but it's not going to happen.

No, it's once you, once this is really, unless you're going the exact 180 in strip, everyone of their rights just made a despotic regime, which is, this country still seems to be relatively guarded against so far, despite the police forces that are armed to the team.

Yeah.

But no, I mean, this is kind of, it's true, once you have rights given to try to then go and strip them away or put them back is not only just obviously wrong, it's foolhardy. It doesn't make sense. Like that's not, no one is going to say, oh yeah, you know what, I liked it better when I couldn't do anything in my life sucked. No one's voluntarily doing that. And it's hard to coerce people into doing that. And I think that what you're saying is really important here. It's like that idea that Jordan Peterson is trying to sell and that a lot of people on the right, the alt-right, the Ben Shapiro's, the kind of, you know, that have their different logic bro kind of facts can disprove my facts situation.

But as though there, when it comes to some of these things, there are unadulterated facts. Like they operate as though like science and logic and all of these things, just like the whole function of these things is to slowly evolve and get better and better and be, it's not like they come with these packages where you get it's like, this is a fact, women are stupid and they can't be good in the workplace. Like that's never will be a fact because it makes them sense. Yeah, I find it very disconcerting that a large enough subset of my friends, obviously all white men are able to take some of the more destructive kind of, you know, pernicious things that he says about women, minorities, classes, all of those things.

And just be like, well, you know, those don't, I don't pay attention to his social stuff. I like the other stuff. And then what really troubles me about the other stuff, quote unquote, you know, the clean up your room type mentality is it's just these basic self-help platitudes, slightly couched in this vague kind of scientific evolutionary biology. It's nonsense. And it's just like, if that's what you like, go read "Rumi." Go read "Rinjarnath Tagore." Go read "Kaleo Jabron." Like go read people who-- Right, there's so many other great minds. Yeah. And I think also one of the things that, you know, that really gets my goat about Jordan Peterson is that he's twisted the narrative that it's people that care about social justice that are the real oppressors.

Right. And it's like, it's like, it could not be. I mean, it's not even, there's no time in human history ever where women were seeking more rights and became the oppressor. It's just never happened. It's never happened. And so for him to go around the country and around, you know, around Canada and tell all of these people that like it's social justice people that are the real oppressors is mind-blowing. I mean, when you look at like some of the worst despotic people in human history, you've got Nicola Chacheshko. What did he do? He created the decree 770 where he did strip all women of their rights.

You know, he came in and he said, "We don't have enough, you know, power and energy. "So we're gonna ban all abortion "and start breeding programs." Hitler did the same thing. Hitler, when he first came to power, the very first thing he did was padlock every abortion clinic, strip women of their jobs, and made them dress a certain way and it started a breeding program. Stalin did the same thing. Mao also controlled women's rights. So the when despotic people come into power that are dangerous, the people that are doing peace and loves to complain about, they're the first thing that they almost always do is control women and minorities and you know, LGBTQ people usually are banned and outlawed and murdered and you know, I mean, that's just the way that's the way despotic people work.

And so for him to twist it into this way of saying, oh, well, I've studied history and it's really, you know, lesbian and gay people and women who are the oppressors because you know, I mean, the law that he has to make to how to, and for people to actually believe it is mind blowing, it's not rooted in history. It's not rooted in reality. And it's never, it's never happened in history for something like that to happen. So it's fear-mongering.

It is fear-mongering. And I think it illuminates the type of thinking which is why it just boggles my mind that people buy this stuff, who I see are relatively intelligent, they're intelligent, they're smart people. Some of them are passionate people in aspects of their lives but to see it just kind of be subverted and twisted around and I get that there are people who are going to be farther to the right of me or we're going to be less progressive about certain outlooks and I can tolerate that. But to kind of couch it in this like, oh, you know, it's not so bad saying these things but really when you take a look at some of this stuff, it's just like, this isn't a powered one.

And every Jordan Peterson's fan favorite thing to say is, well, you haven't really read or watched or anything. It's like, I have like, I--

Yeah, I have hours and hours and hours and hours and it's like, you know, and that's why I was saying the jello to a tree thing because it's like--

You learn clearly.

95% of what he says really is just not that, it's just whatever, you know, like you said, it's like, oh, clean your room and, you know, most of it's really not--

It's not very interesting. To me, number one, it's not very profound. I think that if he is the first step on your ladder, first wrong in your ladder to more, you know, substantial inner exploration or cultural exploration, that's great and if that's what he's gonna be able to do. And when I first found out about him, Alyssa of this podcast recommended him to me and this was before he had gotten any trouble in Canada, really was just seemingly like an interesting forward thinking professor who was interested in culture and seemed to have some knowledge of Jung. I was like, cool, you know, not my cup of tea, but if he's someone's, you know, who gets him in the door of this stuff, that's really cool.

But to see the radical shift that's happened, really, it does and like, you know, I think some people listening might be like, well, if you don't like the guy so much, why do you keep talking about him? Why do you keep paying attention? I think because this is one of the figures who can seep into our peer groups and people we know, kind of inocuously, but really be very, very dangerous because the stuff that he's actually talking about isn't helping, it won't help. It's verifiably untrue most of the time and your comment that he's slippery is exactly, he intends to be, he wants to be like that.

So he can see smarter in a gotcha moment with like Kathy Newman, even though anyone with a mind and a heart watching that is like, Kathy Newman didn't seem crazy. She seemed like a normal person being totally flabbergasted by some of the things that this guy was saying that work great. Great, great. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. Oh God, the Kathy Newman thing, don't get me started on that. Yeah, and you know, it's, it's, you know, the, the thing that I find the most alarming about him is that he has, like you said, he seeped into a lot of my, my peer groups, a lot of my male friends started getting really into him and then became very agro and aggressive and almost, like as a woman, I'm almost terrified of some of them because I'm like, whoa, like you used to be a nice kind, gentle person and now you're angry at women all the time, like I can't even walk online without like feeling, you know, like they, they're, it's like he sells them kind of a victim complex.

You know what I mean? That's what's so weird about it to me 'cause he's got this other, he's, his persona that he's pitching to them is I am father, I am daddy. I will tell you how to fix your life. But what he's really pitching them is that women are taking advantage of you. Other people are taking advantage of you. You should be upset and do something about it. And it's like, what? It's like, no, that's not good advice in this particular situation at all.

No, no, no. You know, there's, there's some, there's some other great, you know, men speaking out on, on, on gender issues that I think is, is great. Terry Crews, I don't know if you know who he is.

Yeah, of course, amazing.

He's great. I had the voice that he's had in gender dynamics stuff has been just wonderful because he, you know, he wrote a whole book about masculinity. And, and I think that there is a, there is a crisis in, for men in this generation. And I think that we should acknowledge that. I think that, that, you know, women's empowerment has allowed us to kind of, you know, from my generation and my mom's generation to kind of really find out what it is to be a woman and like be able to like empower ourselves. And men haven't really had that kind of renaissance yet. Like women's empowerment did free men.

You guys are free too.

So interesting. That's so fucking interesting.

Your only role was, your only role was to provide for us. And now you get to do whatever you want. You don't have to have a family. And I think that there is an identity crisis for Gen Xers and Millennial men. But there needs to be better role models and people telling better stories, you know. (laughs)

I really, I've never thought about what you just said. And it really, really, really resonates, which is, you're right. Men have also been living under this, when I say men, the people who are unaware that there's a cultural operating system running that we're a part of and we didn't really sign up for. Some of us are lucky enough to break out of that box, whether it's by a good family who is forward thinking or psychedelics or Eastern meditation, yoga, whatever it is. But for most of us, even myself who consider myself a pretty flexible, open-minded person, I still get caught in the cultural paradigm all of the time and recognize that with women's freedom, and this is a really fucking cool thing you just said, that also liberates men too from this paradigm.

And that kind of, I think it's interesting to see the difference in how women and men culturally deal with this. Women, I think for the most part, are excited because this is a new opportunity, at least culturally. There's boundaries to explore. There's all of these different things. There's still so much inequity that needs to be kind of a quad-at for a long time. But men, like, they're just like, what the fuck is going on with the most part? And I think for my own psyche, when I'm in those states, man or woman, it doesn't matter. When most people, their flaws will be magnified when you're in that state of mind, like, what the fuck is going on, in a not good way.

Not like, what the fuck is going on? This is crazy. It's like, what the fuck is going on? Like, this is not something I wanna be doing. Like, fighting a bad trip or something. And that kind of seems like emblematic of Trumpism, the far-right populism. I mean, it seems like this stuff doesn't seem as mysterious or vague or kind of disconnected when you look at it from that because I think that's really profound. And I really haven't heard anyone say that, that men are also, you know, in the process, probably behind women in this sense, liberating themselves from these paradigms. That's so interesting.

Yeah, I mean, our freedom is rooted in each other's freedom, right? So I mean, nobody wins under patriarchy. Like, it's also oppressive to men. And I think that, you know, the alt-right and the proud boys and those guys, there's zero-sum gamers. They see this as a zero-sum game. And really the way that our culture needs to move forward is really seeing our liberation is equally rooted in each other's liberation. And I, you know, I think that that's the narrative that needs to be more drawn out and more shared in our culture for, I think, for things to move forward. I wanted to bring back up though, the kind of the equilibrium pendulum swing thing.

And it's the one thing that's really kind of kept me, you know, really grounded during this time period. And it's, it's RGB Beta Ginsburg talks on a podcast, not too long ago about the great pendulum in this country. And, you know, she's, she's right that there is, there's, for every gains that are made for people, you know, whether it's women's rights or LGBTQ rights or, you know, minorities, for every gains that are made, you know, when you look at the civil rights era, there was a backlash to that, you know.

Yeah.

The second wave feminism, you know, my mom's generation, there was a backlash to that and that was Reaganism.

Yeah.

You know, so we're, we made some huge gains. Let's not forget that as a society, you know, with our first black president, with gay marriage, almost, we almost had our first female president.

Yeah.

These are all huge shifts in culture.

Yes.

And, you know, the backlash that we're seeing to that is not going to be sustained, it can't be sustained. They're not the majority of the country. And there will be a backlash to this backlash, just like there always is.

Yeah.

So, you know, there will be a, I think, I believe there will be another Obama-type era, but it might, you know, we might have to, unfortunately, put up with eight years of Trump and that's a scary thought. It is scary and I am kind of of the mindset that we will get eight years of him, just because I think we're still in the disbelief phase for most people and it's going to be, November will obviously be very interesting and there are obviously subtle political things that need to be worked out in the Democratic Party on the left, more progressive side of this country. But yeah, I mean, I think it's true.

Listen, the one thing I know about change is that everything changes. It's the only consistent, is that everything changes? That's the paradoxically, of course. I mean, and it would be foolish to think that this is necessarily ushering in some horrible, demonic, dystopian future that lasts forever. Now, this isn't to say that we don't work hard and I think the solution that you found, which is telling stories and getting them out there, is probably the best thing people can do 'cause it's non-combative, you know? It's fighting a fight in a way that is much more like judo-like. You're using something subversive, not going in full force to go beat someone in the head and scream at them, but you're telling something that anyone can relate to 'cause if it's a universal truth in a story, just like the hero's myth, people will be like, "Oh, you know what, there's something there."

I think that's how we carry the torch forward, right? I mean, I love that. I mean, Rina, I couldn't have been more happy with who you are for this episode 'cause these are things that I think about this shit so much and anyone who's on any amount of social media during the day, you get so many different perspectives of people you know and just like you, I'm connected to people, I have no idea who these people are, like, "How did we get connect?" I don't know, but you see such a large swath of people and it just can become overwhelming at times to be like, "How does this stuff get reconciled? How do we move forward?"

But, you know, when you find someone like you who's not only socially aware of these things and socially aware of them, but integrating in with your art and using your art and kind of that modality of music to kind of focus on these things, that's the coolest thing in life to me, truthfully.

Wow, thank you.

It really is.

That's a big compliment.

It is though because like that's like, I mean, I know not everyone is here to make art and, you know, tell stories through that and impact other people's lives, but, you know, for the people who are, it's something that I think we all appreciate, right? I mean, it's something that even if you're not one of those people and you just kind of like listen to something or hear someone speak, it's a beautiful thing and it's a reminder that we are all interconnected and that our kind of output in the world does have an impact whether we can see it explicitly or not, so it's important that we have people like you.

Thank you.

Yeah, well, I would love to actually have you back on at some point in the not too distant future and check in as our country kind of weaves its way and see how you're doing with Python, but I'm gonna wrap this one up here, but I end with three questions and then a kind of longer little question.

Okay.

So here we go, they may seem silly, but they're super duper important. What is your favorite color?

Burgundy.

Cool. What is your favorite number?

13.

Oh, that's my favorite number, cool. What is your favorite animal?

Oh, probably cat.

Cool. And last question, what's a practical tip that you could share with people listening that's helped you in your life and could be anything?

Be patient with yourself.

It's the hardest one ever.

The hardest thing to do.

Can you pick another one?

No, it's too hard.

Speaking of learning Python, there's definitely been moments where I hit a wall and I think there's no way I'm gonna absorb this information and I would just wanna break down and cry and be angry at myself. And it's like, you know what, just be patient, walk away. My brain will turn back on at some point.

Yeah, it's so true.

And I will absorb this information, but just be patient. And that is some of the hardest, that was definitely one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn, that's for sure.

Yeah, I'm still learning it. I still, I need to be reminded every day.

Have a little sticky note.

Yeah, just get a tattoo on my, I'll get a face tattoo like a SoundCloud rapper, just get right on my face. Rita, thank you so much for doing this. This was really a pleasure for me.

Awesome, me too, and I would love to come back on.

Okay, cool, we'll stay in touch.

All right, take care.

Bye-bye.

Bye. (gentle music) ♪ You and I are underneath the sheet ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ This child's been down ♪ ♪ Underneath the sheet ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Let's go and come away ♪ ♪ Of a safe smile ♪ ♪ Of a safe smile ♪ ♪ Of a safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Die, die ♪ ♪ In the sheet ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ This child's been down ♪ ♪ In the sheet ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ To the way ♪ ♪ A safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ Safe smile ♪ ♪ In the way ♪ ♪ This child's been down ♪ [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] ♪ Die ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Let's go and come away ♪ ♪ This child's done ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ To the way ♪ ♪ This child's done ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ This child's done ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ To the way ♪ ♪ This child's done ♪ [MUSIC]

[MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] Thanks for listening to the episode. I thought it was a pretty good one. I thought it was a great one, actually. I'm going to have Rina on soon. It just was a fun conversation, which is what this show is when people say, "Hey Noah, what is your show about if they're coming on?" I say, "It's just a conversation." You know, and I say, "Well, if you want to," which hopefully isn't construed as rude, you can go listen to previous episodes to see that it literally is just a conversation. I don't have any questions written down. I don't have any specific dangle I'm trying to extract.

We go where the conversation takes us. That's how it is in real life. That's what these things are supposed to be. Yeah. Go check out Rina. Her music is all over Spotify. It's a song that I was referencing. It is mentioned in the episode. It's called "Open Me Slowly." Great song. It kind of has a, what's the, who am I looking for? A Wicked Games by Chris Isaac chord progression. One of my favorite things. I like a chord progression like that if you're from a musical people. If you've got a little, what is it? E minor, D major, A minor, play that. It's a fun little chord progression. Anyway, thank you for listening to this episode.

We'll be back with Cool One next week. Some other cool ones out to that. I'm in the process of getting a very cool one. Lockdown. I will not divulge until the episode is out because I don't want to jinx it. Also, football season is coming up and unfortunately I am a NFL fan. I can't justify it with any moral or ethical rationale. Other than say that I have been growing, I grew up in a culture of football. It's not actually in my family. I chose to participate in this culture. I'm addicted to it. It's going to die. It's not safe for these guys to be hitting each other with like that. The NFL is making people stand up.

Stupid shit. It's just, it's not a good league. It's bad. It's stupid. My team sucks. I'm a Dolphins fan. But I'm still going to watch it. So I'll let you know when that ends. I'm sure you really are keen to know my interest in the Dolphins. But if you hear the Dolphins ramble this season. Just know that it's probably one of the last ones you'll hear. Okay, thank you and I'll see you next week. Hey there. It's Wayfair here. Where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it. A brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up.

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