Ep. 8 - Buddhism and Psychedelics with Allan Badiner

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

Welcome to episode eight of Synchronicity. It's hard for me to believe that it's already episode eight. That's pretty crazy. It's been flying by for me. I've been having a great -- Haven't I? Haven't I? Haven't I? Haven't I? I've been having a great time. I hope you have been to my guest today. Episode eight, Alan Badina. Alan is the editor of a wonderful book called Zigzag Zen. There's a new edition out now. Zigzag Zen is a book that explores the connection between Buddhism and psychedelics. Two of my favorite subjects. So what else about Alan? Oh, man. He is an environmental activist. He is fighting and helping to support the cause of stopping the deforestation of rainforests, particularly in South America.

I've only been Facebook friends with Alan now for about two, three weeks. He's got maybe one of the best hit percentages in terms of quality posts that I see on Facebook. Everything he's been posting has been really eye-opening, not superficial. Basically, the opposite of most people's Facebook experience. So that's been nice. On top of that, you'll hear in the episode, "Really Wise Smart Individual" has a great perspective on life. Let's talk about Buddhism and psychedelics. Like I said, two of my favorite subjects. I'm particularly interested in them because from the first time I ever did psychedelics, I was 15. And I took some LSD and right then, my entire life changed completely. Up until that point, I think I had solely, I like to describe it as I had my head up my ass, squarely up my ass, I would say. Really thought that the world revolved around me, that everything was for me. I was supposed to be getting these things, doing this. I was very convinced of myself as a solid individual. This is who I am. I don't even know if I consciously was thinking about that. I was too young, but that's how I approached the world. As soon as I took hallucinogens that shattered, I quickly realized that what we like to think ourselves, think of ourselves as, is not maybe what we really are. So maybe not as solid, these thoughts and emotions and feelings and maybe we're an aggregate of those things, and what we're experiencing maybe is a little bit filtered. So that was my first introduction to psychedelics. Later in life, I started getting into Buddhism, particularly Tibetan Buddhism, and was very fascinated with it. I found myself going to Tibetan stores in New York, and I picked up a singing bowl and started reading about all these different Buddhas, and Avalokiteshvara, and Amitabha, and Tara's, and all of these things. I didn't really know why, but I found it fascinating. You'll see when the book does a pretty good job of delving into this, the connection of trying to liberate your mind, trying not to be tainted by a limited perspective or view seems to be one of the parallels, for me at least, between Buddhism and psychedelics. Now, I will say this. One thing I love about this book, Zig-Zag Zen, and again, these will be on the podcast page here, mindpodnetwork.com/noa.

First episode will be this one with Alan. There'll be a link to his book, really recommend checking it out. Alex Gray has also, you know, visionary artist has curated some incredible images to go in the book. But one of the things I really like about this book is it doesn't just advocate for taking psychedelics. It's not, that's what I thought it would be, truthfully. I thought it would be saying, "Hey, psychedelics, Buddhism, same thing. Of course, obviously, psychedelics, definitely, okay." But there's a lot of different viewpoints in this book, and they range. And that, to me, is a very important thing in life is to get as many viewpoints have talked about this before, as many perspectives as you can in a given situation. It's extremely important because otherwise, you may be missing something and you might not be able to make a decision or form a belief or form something that's going to help you if you're only getting a very small sliver of what's going on. So the book, yeah, I mean, it's pretty rounded in, it gives you a nice view of what's going on. Alan also talks about a personal ayahuasca trip that he had that was incredibly transformative for him. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. I know a lot of people in my life who have done ayahuasca end-door DMT, although they're not the same thing that DMT is the active compound in Ayahuasca, one of them.

And what I'll say is this, and you'll hear me say it in the podcast, overwhelmingly, it seems, people who have ayahuasca experiences tend to feel coming out of it that it was a very positive thing. Now, that may not mean the experience itself was positive because I think a lot of people go through some serious shit, but it really does seem to give them some type of perspective on life, the universe, just death, the world, and the things we have to deal with. So that's, I think, Alan relays this a little bit, and the story is in the book, so you could check that out. Ayahuasca, like I said, I've never done it, haven't done DMT, not ruling them out, just something I haven't had the particular calling for, but again, something I'm pretty interested in. So, yeah, that's today's deal. I think that's about it, yeah. Listen to Alan and enjoy.

After reading not only the stories that are, or the articles that have been put together, but also the interviews that you've done with quite a few people, some that I work with and know, you know, I would love to hear a little bit about you and how did you get from probably someone who was interested in psychedelics and/or Buddhism to putting together this amazing compilation of just voices and thoughts and ideas and, yeah, how did that come about? Well, it's a story how it came about, for sure, and I'll try to be succinct. And I had, well, I guess I'd start by saying that Buddhism was my gateway drug. So I was at a pretty straight edge, found myself in India at some point, recovering from a job that I wasn't enjoying, and found a great solace in sort of the other world of Bhakti Hinduism, and Shivite practice, and, you know, just it was another world to hide in, and it was great. And then as I was ready to go home, this friend of mine said to me, honestly, you weren't going to fit in. You know, I had a bald head and that I'd shaved, and, you know, I was wearing Indian clothes, and I had a tealock in between my eyes, and I wanted to just chant Krishna and God's name and be happy forever after. So she suggested that I go to Sri Lanka and enroll in a Buddhist retreat in the mountains there. She gave me a place to go that she thought would be suitable. And I know she made a lot of sense to me, so I took her advice. But it was awful. There were bugs. It was dirty. It was God forsaken in the middle of nowhere. The bed was made of concrete. Meals were stewed greens at six in the morning, and the very same stewed greens at 11.30 for lunch and no dinner. So I was miserable. I heard from head to toe my bones and my butt, and everything was just painful.

Sitting and sitting and sitting, barely eating. And then, at some point, I realized it's going to be harder for me to get a car up here and sneak out early then just to sit through it. So I did. And about a day and a half before the scheduled end of the retreat, every bit of pain just fell away. And I had never experienced that kind of quiet state of total bliss. And I was just felt connected to and thrilled by and in awe of all kinds of life, including the bugs around me. And just had a different whole beingness that surprised me and shocked me. But I was going along with it. It was fun. And people were responding to me in a way that was very different than ever before. How so? Well, I wasn't particularly comfortable with it because I don't have the kind of vibe in public just to say, Oh, come and talk to me. You know, I'm kind of like if I don't get in my way more so. But people would come up to me and start engaging me and wanting to talk to me and wanting to get a hit on this meditative glow or whatever it was. So I took it back to the states and I ended up wanting to pursue, you know, the study of Buddhism because I wanted to find out what that was. And so I started studying Pali with Theravad-Mank and I worked on a masters and completed that in Buddhism. And I had a column in the LA weekly where I was writing about all the mind stuff from Scientology to psychoneuroimmunology to Terence McKenna to Tignerhan and everything in between. And so I was curious and I was learning more about psychedelics, which I had no experience with. And Terence McKenna convinced me I don't know how 20 some years ago to do Ayahuasca, which at that point was known as Yahheh. And yeah, well, so that was just unbelievable. I just was so mad at him afterwards.

Is that the story you recount in Zigzag San or is that a separate experience? Yes, it is. My Ayahuasca story is in Zigzag San. That's my story. Under a terrible name called Yahheh in the Yannas, which nobody understands. But I can see how a lot of people might not get that. Bahayana, Hinnayana, etc. But yeah, so and in certain psychedelic experiences that I started to have with experimenting with mushrooms and a quite funny story about taking ecstasy for the first time while I was still in that sort of psychological circuit and it's not been on the streets yet. And went to visit Shulgan at his little hospital office in San Francisco. And he was like a guru that I had met in India with his shocking white hair leaping out of his head and the sweetest countenance and just really an amazingly wonderful person. But I was very interested in the fact that the people who brought Buddhism to our culture were the same people who were talking about psychedelics, whether it be Alan Watts or Alan Ginsburg or Ram Das or Jack Kerouac. It's quite a list. And I remember being in a retreat with Tigna Khan and after at Dharma Talk we had a Dharma discussion group and the topic was drugs, which I thought, oh no, I'm going to hear like 20 people including me saying no, I don't do them. But it was fascinating because everyone there had a story to tell about psychedelics that it somehow was part of their journey that took them to Buddhism. So I thought that was very interesting too. And then when the title came to me, Zig Zags and I said, that's it. There's a book here and I'm going to do it. And it was quite surprising that no one had taken on that topic before relationship between Buddhism and psychedelics.

So yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, you touched on a lot of things there. Not the least of which is the connection between Buddhism and psychedelics not only for you personally, but I think for what you said a lot of people, I personally had, I didn't, my access point with kind of mysticism or the unconscious or any of these philosophies or contemplative sciences, I actually was very much into Carl Jung. That's how the first psychedelic experience I had was very much influenced and tied in there. But what came out of my early psychedelic experiences was actually an overwhelming connection to both Buddhism and Vedanta, you know, the Vedic stuff. And surprise, there wasn't more kind of exploration of this at least written or otherwise. I imagine in the salons and people talking with each other had always noted these connections, but to see them laid out in this book is just truly fascinating. And, you know, one of the things that I found very interesting about it, perhaps you could talk about this a little bit is the role of, because in your ayahuasca story in the book, you know, the shamans, Ayahuasca, he says, you know, are you going to do any of this again? And you're hysterically laughing saying, no, I got the message, which is also, I think, a Rhonda quote is when you get the message, hang up the phone, right?

Allen Watts. There you go. Yeah. So my question is, how, what do you see the overall role of psychedelics, both on the path as part of a journey as an entry point, and then ultimately the integration after psychedelics, or maybe they continue, but how do you integrate, you know, the subtle experience with regular life? Well, I mean, it's a really good question. Of course I've grappled with it myself, and I think everybody has to find their own way of how to integrate that. And the main thing is that they do integrate it, that they engage in that process of trying to bring the experience they had into a perspective so that it can serve them and be something to call on, you know, and later in life. And, you know, for some people, they're not, they don't mix. I mean, there are voices in the book that are very clear and well argued, I might add, that suggest that they really have nothing to do with each other. They don't belong together and they're very different and, you know, in the story. That wasn't my experience, but that is the experience of others. And I thought it'd be useful in the book to present all the gradations, all the different perspectives so that, you know, people would have a better sense of where they stand of the project.

But I think that, well, first of all, I think that, you know, psychedelic exploration and Buddhist practice, you know, have, are very different, but they have common concerns. I mean, the liberation of the mind is the primary objective of actually both. I mean, you could look at it that way. And both in both domains, there's a, you know, a great importance on coming to terms with your own mortality, with impermanence, and comprehending reality directly rather than, you know, abstractly or euretically. And also understanding the tenuous borders between yourself and all other beings. So I think that in that sense, they smoothly ride together towards those objectives. I felt that my experience with mushrooms and with MDMA brought me very close and very much in familiar territory with the experience I had in the Buddhist retreat. You know, that sort of feeling of connection and compassion for everything around you and connectedness that just feels so thrilling when you're experiencing it. You know, that they felt very related. I have to say that in the Buddhist experience, it was, you know, without any materials, it was just profound.

Whereas it was sort of a taste of that with those other materials. So, but, and I'm still fairly conservative about use, about my own use. And so for me, you know, I see it very much as they're working together in mysterious ways to, you know, prepare you for the next step in the journey, which is hard to say what direction you'd go in, but that's a personal choice. Yeah, I mean, I think that what you mentioned about perspectives too is another thing that struck me in the book is that, you know, I was, I got to say, I was expecting before I read it to be like, this is going to be a glorification of psychedelics and Buddhism and how they're exactly the same thing. And it's all related and takes psychedelics to your wit's end, which also has, that has not been my experience either. I've had varying experience with psychedelics. And for the most part, nowadays, except in very controlled and very infrequent situations, while I take psychedelics, I really view them as maybe at best reminders at this point in my life of the, the dissolution of reality or whatever you want to call it, Maya. But I don't know that I use it as a tool consistently to take me there. And I think that was, that was really something that struck me about the book too, is you're really presenting a lot of perspectives on this, which I think is what you have to do because, right, with psychedelics, it seems that it's a, the most subjective substances we can take, right? Depending on your frame of mind, your set and setting, what you think the experience is going to be like, what your, maybe your karma is, all have major influences on the experience. So why wouldn't it be that some people this could be useful for and some people it couldn't? Personally, for you, I mean, you said you're fairly conservative.

I mean, what, what do you think, how is a way, like now let's talk about a little bit about the current state of psychedelics in the United States, right? Where slowly it seems, go getting to a place where at least research is being accepted with maps and Rick Doblin and so many great people who are really trying to push this forward so he can at least study the effects of these things and see what's going on. What do you think, you know, in the next, in the coming years and the evolution of this, what role do you think psychedelics will play in kind of, yeah, just, that's it. Okay. Well, I, I have, I have big, big ideas about psychedelics. I think that I think it's just beginning to impact human culture. I mean, the sixties, I think it was just a dress rehearsal for what's about to come down the pike and I'm seeing psychedelics now, as you mentioned, being studied seriously, banned for the last 50 years as being worthless to any pursuit at all of medicine, of philosophy, just considered, you know, without any, any substantial or legitimate use or now being thought of as perhaps the most promising medicines and interventions in, in, in many, many, many years. And, you know, I see it making huge inroads into what has usually been considered the psychopharmacological domain, you know, with chemicals from labs.

I think a lot of that is going to just, you know, fall away when we consider, you know, maybe one or two experiences with the psilocybin or MDMA, you know, changing the direction from years of depression to, you know, having a sort of a new lease on, on a new life perspective that comes from those materials and not the constant use of these, you know, substances from a lab that have side effects and et cetera, et cetera. So when the results of these studies that are continuing start to, you know, coalesce in people's awareness that, hey, this is, we can, we can get medicine from plants in the earth that will heal us and not cause us other problems. So I think that's a hard message to suppress. And it's on its way out of the bottle. Well, I see. And I'm curious because I, I like you. I pretty much am very much, I'm aligned with that, that way of thinking. I've thought that from the earliest days, and now seeing what marijuana is happening with marijuana in this country, which I 15 years ago, I would have thought you were an insane person, you know, who probably took it, taken too many drugs, if you said it was going to be legal anywhere recreationally.

But on the same token, for as many people like us who have had personal experiences, have seen other people have positive experiences dealing with mental and physical pain, all of these things, there seems to be still a large contingent of people. I presume primarily based out of fear, who really do not want these things, who view them as the scourge of society. And these are the worst that could potentially happen. How do we bridge the gap between the science, the spirituality, and then maybe people are factions who are not able to see it directly, the benefits of these things. Like, how does that happen? Because that's what I'm, I'm always asking myself. Well, I think it's going to happen very organically.

There's going to be more and more awareness of the positive effects of these things and of some of them. By the way, when we talk about psychedelics, I don't mean to include every psychedelic compound of all kinds. I mean, there are some that I think have more value than others and some that have very little value. And it's really about, I guess my test for a good psychedelic or one that might be compatible with the Buddhist practices, one that increases your compassion and adds to your sense of being connected, genuinely connected to all other life. So I think that's, to me, that's the test of whether a substance is compatible with Buddhist practice, but also ultimately very useful in your own development.

Well, do you think that the substances themselves inherently, I've, you know, I've known a lot of people have taken ayahuasca and the experiences seem to be very similar and overwhelmingly positive, even if the actual experience itself is negative, so to speak. So I, yeah, and I've noted that I've noticed that just from what people are saying, but, you know, just as, you know, back in the 60s and set and setting was really proliferating. I mean, if you're not in the right space and you take, I mean, psilocylic, psilocylic, and especially, I mean, that can get out of control, right? I mean, and it can, can potentially have maybe a negative effect if you don't have the correct approach towards it. So I wonder how much, you know, where do we draw the line? Not that we have to draw a line, but which substances have the most, in your opinion, have the most overall benefit for everyone? I know this is very general and which ones maybe don't. That's, that's a question I'm interested in.

Well, that would be my own subjective list. I'm not sure. But just to answer your question about so many people having it be not even something they'd consider, that's okay. Because I think not everybody has to take psychedelics, but there'll be enough of a significant percent that the culture will itself change as a result of it and, and be very different. And so in that sense, it's going to reach everyone whether they actually, you know, drop something or not. Well, clearly, I mean, I'm not an experiment, I'm not terribly experienced with some psychedelics. I did take LSD once in my life, late in my life, and at Burning Man. And that was a good place to take it. And it made a lot of sense to me. And I think I'm still on it. But it was quite a wonderful experience. But nothing that really touched, I think for me, the consistent use of mushrooms with super high intentions and really good setting setting, that was just made a much more significant and lasting difference in my life. And that's not to say that LSD is less powerful than psilocybin. It's just different.

Yeah. I think MDMA is an experience that everybody should have. My was quite amusing, standing next to someone who I just did not like at all, too, having a wonderful conversation and wanting more, you know, and just turning around my whole perceptual field about who I would like and who I don't like. And having an experience of not disliking anyone itself is a beautiful thing and a beautiful, powerful experience to have, you know, that you can retrieve itself from time to time when needed. And then I guess, you know, I mean, ayahuasca probably I'd say is the granddaddy of the mall in terms of an intervention in your consciousness that opens you to, I think it's the closest thing we have to being reborn.

And, you know, very, very powerful. And again, all subject to the law of setting setting and being having someone who, you know, you genuinely feel cares about you, be there for you and help you with getting comfortable when you need it or hydration or whatever, those kinds of things are extremely important. So those are a few and there aren't many others. I mean, I'm not that experienced with all the cactuses, but definitely there's elements there that can be very powerful. And I should, should we sit around and take cocaine every day and bump it up with ketamine? No, I mean, other people think they're awesome, but not me, you know.

Yeah, well, that actually goes into an area that I'm very interested in. So I, when I was about 16 years old, I started getting very into underground electronic dance music. And I was not doing any drugs at these events. I wasn't even able to drink. I was going out to warehouse parties in Washington, D.C. And truthfully, I just fell in love with the music. And I would stay out from the, you know, getting there at 8 p.m. till 8 a.m. the next day. And I knew people were on drugs, especially MDMA and other forms of, you know, ecstasy and other things. But I, something that always struck me about those events with the music and the community. Now it's a little bit different, depending on where you are, was this, this, this feeling of connectedness and unity and love. And it's something that I wasn't able to really put my finger on until much, much later, many experiences, both with the music and psychedelics and spirituality. But what I've noticed, and this has been an extremely pleasant surprise for me, is Burning Man, which you mentioned, has become somewhat of a mecca for the music that I love. There's a group of people, robot, heart, desert hearts.

They put on these amazing electronic parties there. And those are, those have been my favorite DJs, people like Lee Birch. I mean, these are people who I've followed for 10, 15 years. So there seems to be, at least for me, a very, your book is Zig-Zag Zenon and it explores Buddhism and psychedelics. But I also see this, and you mentioned it in the forward and in the beginning of the book, it also seems to be that there's some connection between that particular music and music in general and whatever we're keying in on, right? Whatever is underlying psychedelics and Buddhism, which we try to touch. And it's just been a fascinating thing to see evolve. So I mean, could you tell me about your experiences?

I've never been to Burning Man, but I know, I mean, every year when it happens, my Facebook is lit up across the whole entire page of people at Burning Man, going to Burning Man, getting images out this year for the first time. Can you just talk about what it's like going there and thinking about it? Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I actually wrote a piece for Tricycle that was also a nutney reader about my experience of Burning Man as a Buddhist kind of event. It was very interesting because I definitely felt a very strong conscious effort on everyone's part to not be judging, not judge another person for what they look like or trying to look like or anything, just to be accepting everyone, assuming that everyone was heartful and behaving that way with that assumption. And just so giving and giving of smiles, giving of help, giving of material things if needed, giving of food. I mean, people were just on their best behavior in a way. In a place that you would think would be wild behavior. You know, there'd be people just going wild. And there was some wildness, but it was wildness in that greater context of just the human family and we're all in this together. I mean, these are conditions that are challenging to just about anybody.

And you get through it because you team up with friends and you form, you know, mutually protective systems. And so it's really a wonderful experience. And the temple, which is sort of the spiritual heart of Burning Man, is where people go to drop all of their pretensions that everything's okay. All of their, you know, veneer of self satisfaction and actually go into the layer of grief that they're feeling and share it. And people, you know, just hold each other. And it's just an extraordinary experience of human intimacy without having, you know, an ulterior motive. Yeah. I mean, no, it's one of those things that I've seen. Like I said, I haven't been, you know, I've been to spiritual retreats and I've been in satsangs and songas that feel like that. But it does seem to be that this is a, is a place that is at the very least waking a decent number of people up and that from what I've seen of the people who've gone.

And this is another thing I want to talk about. Again, it's related to integration is people seem to be taking the experience with them out into the world and not completely letting it fade, which is, you know, an experience of psychedelics in some way. We do psychedelics. And I had an experience where I took LSD and I legitimately did not come down for three months. And it wasn't like, Oh, well, I'm still, I was tripping for three months and I didn't take any more LSD. And I was launched into some, you know, alternate reality what that exists that most people don't engage with. But it seems to me that people are still able to bring this stuff back from Burning Man. And I think that helps us as a planet, as a race, as humans, as people who are trying to raise consciousness and at least be more aware of what's going on, which leads me to my next question I see and I know you described yourself as an environmental, environmental activist. And I'd like to talk about, you know, what's the connection between that you see between Buddhism, psychedelics, and, you know, taking care of any type of activism? Let's focus on.

Sure. That's a great question. Thanks. Well, first of all, and then going back to that Buddhist breakthrough kind of experience, I think in Buddhism, it's described it potentially was a case of a stream entrance, a stream entering experience. But what was salient about that experience for me was how connected I felt not only to other people, but to my environment, to the trees, to the little animals that I hated and wanted to kill all of, suddenly feeling very connected to them in the sense that they're part of my exterior life, you know, they're part of me. And that was so powerful to me that it became clear to me that the border between me and the living world was just something in my head. And I was part of a big stew of life that was just all interconnected. And I was exchanging gases with all these other people and beings and plants. And it just seemed like I had found my real family and that I was definitely, you know, connected and cared about the world around me. So it was a true ecological breakthrough also in the sense of understanding that I'm part and parcel of a system and not an individual, you know, all complete, all in package of life. It's more of a I'm somewhere on a spectrum of life. And so I those with those insights were very powerful and stayed with me my whole life. So when you have that sense of connection with all life, you have compassion for all life. And then you want to do what you can by the behavior, by your own behavior and the behavior of others that you can influence to try to protect the planet and the living systems of the planet. Actually, it's the living systems of the planet we want to protect because the planet's going to be just fine.

It's our ability to live on it that becomes compromised. So, you know, it goes part and parcel to me. So when I came back from India and I was looking for work, I, you know, as I mentioned, I started writing for the weekly. And it was, you know, it was really driving all of my work to share that experience of being connected to the earth in every way that I could in all the reporting I was doing. So that was a huge influence that psychedelics and Buddhism had with me because as I mentioned in my psychedelic experiences, I felt really I was touching that earlier profound experience of connection. And so it definitely was very positive in that very sense of connecting me to the world and making me care about it.

So I wrote a story for the LA Weekly about how Burger King was basically causing the destruction of rainforest in South America because they would buy a huge swath of rainforest and then cut it and then have it be grazing land for cattle and so I wrote a story about that and it turned out to be a cover story and it generated a lot of attention in the letters to Burger King, blah, blah, and rainforest action network in San Francisco, which I mentioned in the piece, you know, we're very pleased with it and asked me to, you know, get to know them better, which I did and I joined their board and I've been working with them for the last 25 years. And it's an extraordinary organization doing like really great work on a shoestring budget. So I love them. They're fantastic.

So you mentioned something that in your description that I think is, is for me has been, I call it two things, boundary, dissolution, which is the realization that we're all connected and that we're maybe more like one organism rather than very separate individual activities. And I, I'm wondering, and I also refer to that sometimes is cultivating multiple perspectives because I fundamentally believe the more perspectives you can cultivate on any one experience or situation, the better prepared. It's like skillful means, right? Upia, it's, it's coming up with an, a way to accurately view what's going on rather than from a limited perspective.

So I, and I think, you know, it's, it's interesting the, the, your preferred psychedelics, you know, the ones I think you said most useful. That seems to be, granted, I have not done ayahuasca, but I know psilocybin, I know MDMA, I know LSD, um, and to some extent, marijuana, which I want to get into, uh, you know, those certainly, the overriding characteristic, if you are okay with the experience, seems to be boundary dissolution. And that seems to also fit very much in line with, again, a lot of Vedic and Buddhist, uh, practices of kind of the realization that the self, the I, the me that we like to coalesce around isn't really as real as we like to think it is, um, which is, you know, one of the first things you realize with any type of mindfulness meditation is just by paying attention, you see your regular sense, your experiences are made up of so many different things that this idea of a concrete self doesn't exist. I mean, can you talk about your relationship to that, uh, concept, uh, or non-concept, can I say, um, you know, the boundary dissolution and what, what that is, what do you know that is?

Well, what I think it is, is when we can drop this idea that, you know, that we are this like process of, you know, uh, thinking and remembering and identity and, uh, all encapsulated in this neat and tidy little body bag, when we can sort of drop through that and realize that we're, you know, we're a point on a spectrum of life that's interconnected and interrelated and inter-exists, then we have a very different perspective of ourselves in life and it's, I think, a much healthier one, uh, and much happier one, um, because the less you are, the more fills you up, uh, of the world and, and you're stronger and brighter and, and more excited about living, you know, when you have that kind of expansion and not just, oh, I have to deal with all my problems, you know, I mean, it's, it's very hard to talk about obviously because experiential thing, but I think there's an, there's an element of this question now that has never been the case before and that is, you know, the ecological challenge that we're facing, uh, we are facing our own extinction, I mean, it would be extinction of life as we know it and we're playing, you know, we're playing the game where actually what we do matters and, uh, I think that in a way, you know, I mean, if you look at what are the interventions in our lives that turn us around and give us a whole 'nother perspective and, and, you know, give us a, um, uh, some, some positive meaning for, for our existence and, uh, some, uh, a path of, uh, of service that will make a difference and make us feel uh, useful to the planet, I mean, what could be stronger in a way than psychedelics for making that, for bringing that awakening to bear, I mean, it's just, to me, almost becoming an ecological necessity that we have experiences that bring us to deeper truth and, and allow us to employ our time in a way that's useful to the planet.

So I think it's, um, I think it has another, that another sense of urgency and, and another reason why we should, you know, carefully look at psychedelics has an opportunity to grow and to survive. Yeah, I think that's, that's amazingly well said, um, I, I noticed in what you're saying because I, one thing I've noticed in life, I'm not the oldest, I'm certainly not the why is this, but I've noticed that things that seem negative to me, and I think mass extinction of our species could be characterized as negative, um, I found in negative experiences in my own life, uh, I actually learned the most, right, we, it actually, it can touch something deeper in you that wouldn't have been touched anyway.

This is like kind of, uh, the theory of suffering brings you closer to God or grace or whatever you want to call it. So the prospect of having mass level extinction, um, could potentially awaken us to something greater, which is not to say that, hey, that's the purpose of it and we're all coast is clear, it's going to work out. Um, but I think that's, that's very insightful how you're saying that this is, they're all tied together. And the other thing I noticed that you said is service. I'm, I see you can't completely shed your Bock D, your early Bock D days. Cause Sava is obviously a huge part of that.

Um, and I wanted to talk a little bit about that. I mean, what do you think are some practical actions? This is going to be kind of a two part question, but what are some practical actions that people can take in their daily lives? Let's say I'm interested, I'm a person, I'm interested in psychedelics. I'm interested in Buddhism or some type of spiritual practice. Um, what would you say are the primary reasons for pursuing those, the ways to pursue them and some tips for people who may, this may be peeking their interest and they're feeling very aligned or what you're saying is resonating with them.

How, what, is there a guideline or any blueprint that you would suggest to people to kind of explore these notions or ideas? Yes, my book will suffice. Well, I mean, you know, it's, it's where, we're, we're on new turf, really. There's not a lot of, as I mentioned, there was nothing in any book about, say, for passages here and there in, in other books, but nothing that really explored that relationship and certainly undertaking a dual path of Buddhist study and, and, you know, a path that entails taking psychedelics is your, your, your sort of chartering new ground there, you know? Yeah. And I think that, you know, when it comes to exploring psychedelics, you know, I, it's, you know, there are perils involved and you have to be smart about it and you have to consider, you know, set in setting and intention and, and who would accompany you and, and stuff.

Do it carefully and intelligently. Interestingly, though, you can have a very serious intention, you know, to grow and have a powerful, you know, philosophical and spiritual experience and then just, you know, just have a, you know, shot out of the bag, you know, totally hide the kind, crazy experience. And you can also have the intention of just dancing with your friends and dancing, you know, the heck out of your mind and just not even thinking and have a powerful self discovery that blows your mind. So the subconscious part of your experience and your interaction with whatever the material is can't be predicted.

No. That's for sure. Yeah. So, and so, and I certainly don't advocate that everybody take that path, it's if you want to, you know, then there are, there are some guidelines that went to, to just make, you know, common sense. And then again, practicing, you know, being, practicing, getting to know your mind, taking the time to be very quiet and look at what comes up and integrate these things is, you know, a super wonderful thing to do, you know, and you have a lot of benefit from it. And so, that doesn't need any kind of advertising. Yeah, really good stuff, it has been for thousands of years.

So, and to me, Buddhism is not a religion or, you know, I'm lining up behind the Buddha kind of thing. It's really, this is a guy that, you know, came up with a system for attaining greater wisdom and practices to go deeper within and discover yourself. Why not take advantage of them? You know, I don't call myself a Buddhist. Like my daughter, I think that these things just divide people from each other. And if you've got something that you do that works for you, great. And then share it with those you think would be, would find it valuable. But I don't see a Buddhist psychedelic movement with a new name spreading across the earth.

You know, these are, these are really, it's taking the newest modality for changing consciousness would be oldest one and taking the best of both. That's how I see it. Yeah. And I mean, I think that also fits in line with my, one of my favorite sayings is there's many paths up the mountain, but the view is the same, right? I mean, if they align and they get you there and you get to the summit, you'll see that things are just as you experience when you took ayahuasca, they're connected and you can get there in many different ways. I want to shift gears is my last question. It's flew by by the way.

I'm having a great time. My last question is, where does marijuana fit into all this? Because I don't know if people would classify that specifically as a psychedelic, but for me personally, it's what I would consider my greatest plant ally. It sounds a little hokey to say that, but I mean, it has truly changed my consciousness in a way that I could never have anticipated. And you know, I know it's obviously the stigma associated with it is lessening, especially in the past few years with all the legalization efforts. But where does that fit in in the spectrum of all this stuff? Well, it definitely fits in.

It's definitely a powerful plant ally to human beings and has been for thousands of years. And the uses that are mind-boggling in terms of how we can employ that plant for to replace plastics to replace synthetics, for food, for textile, for so many other applications. Not to mention for medicine and for mind-changing experiments. You can, there are two primary types of plants in the cannabis family with one where it's more CBD dominant and one where it's more THC dominant. And I mean, we're discovering that CBD may be the most powerful and interesting medicine that human beings have ever had. However, if we have a lot of endocannabinoid system in our body, it's insane.

Exactly. The cannabinoid system, the body is a ruling system. I mean, it deals with all the binaries of our being, whether we're tired or not or hungry or not. I mean, happy or not. I mean, this is incredible, and we're just learning also about the power of non-cannabis cannabinoids. You know, the phytocannabinoids like kale and turmeric and the spices, black pepper and cardamom. These are things that can enhance our life, can keep push disease away, make us feel better, all very sort of, you know, moderately and not in a wild way. And cannabis gets a little more wild, you know, with THC, that turning out to be an amazing medicine as well on a painkiller.

And also amazing, which I think a lot of people don't realize, is that there's thousands and thousands of year old practices that medicinal cannabis in India and other places that when the British came to India started translating a lot of that documentation and it spread around the English-speaking world and before you knew it, you had all the major pharmaceutical companies and chemical companies coming out with a cannabis product. And from like 1920 something to 1937, or actually the 1918 to like 37, cannabis was America's favorite analgesic. I mean, it was in every single store. Every single drug company had a cannabis product, we've forgotten that.

Funny, there's a vegan ice cream shop that was in, I used to live in New York for the past seven years and the inside of it, they had a lot of like throwback posters and there's one of them with like a cannabis tonic and it was just like, give it to your kids if they have a headache and I was just like, this isn't that old, this isn't like a thousand years ago, like there was clearly people knew, I mean, obviously we don't need to get in the whole war on drugs thing, but yeah, I'm very encouraged by it too and I'm glad to see it fits in. I respect people like you and Rick Doblin and all these people who are really just getting it out there, showing that intelligent, rational people can discuss these things and they have practical implications and applications, it's a great thing.

I always get this sense, but I've never more felt it than in the coming years that I was born in the right time and place because it's just amazing to see how this stuff is proliferating and it's very encouraging. So okay, what I want to leave on is if you could give one tip to anyone, regardless of psychedelics, regardless of Buddhism's, what's the best thing people can do in terms of spending their attention, awareness and time? Ooh, you mean what to do with their lives or what kind of a problem? What to deal with our lives on? Well, you're asking the wrong person, I'm still asking everybody else, I don't know.

Well I think that, you know, I really believe that we're so connected with so many wonderful forces of nature that there's a voice in us that's really, all of us have some unique piece that we bring to the table and if we could just discover what that is, if we could listen deeply to ourselves and trust ourselves, that we have the message within us that we need to hear. And I think it's just a process of really respecting yourself and trusting yourself and just being in the presence of the gift that life is, being clear that that's, and that you have gifts that to offer. And you know, that's something, people told me that when I was in college, I just think well, another cannabis smoker.

But I mean, it's true, I really believe that, and so just being involved in all of the ways that you go about that path of discovery will unfold naturally, you'll instinctually know where to go, what to do, and just to trust that instinct because it arises and gets stronger is the most beneficial thing I think people can do for themselves. I think that's beautifully stated and I couldn't agree more and that's, well, you're saying you're still asking people, I think you have the answer, so that's really awesome. Thank you so much for spending some time with me talking about this. I'd love to have you on again because this has been one of my favorite conversations I've had and really, really, very awesome.

So thank you. Well, thank you. It was a lot of fun and thanks for making it possible. This has been one of my favorite conversations and it's only 45 minutes, 50 minutes, and there's a trillion other things I'd love to discuss with you, so I really appreciate your time. Oh, my pleasure. Really. It was fun. You're a really good interviewer. Thanks. I'm okay. Okay. All right. Thanks, Alan. You bet. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Okay, so you're listening to the end of the podcast. Clearly, there must be something you're enjoying here. I'm going to ask you again. I'm actually going to bribe you this time. Rate and review this podcast on iTunes and I will make a donation to you, not you making a donation to me.

I will make a donation to you. How do you ask? Will I do this? My voice got pretty high there. That was not planned, but how do you ask that I will do this? I will send me a screenshot of you leaving the review or just say, "Hey, I left a review. Here's my name." This is what it says. Send it to nlampart@mindpodnetwork.com or send it to my Twitter, noelampart, and I will make a donation to you. This is not a joke. I am being totally serious. I hope that this is legal based on the terms of ratings and review, but whatever, I'm doing it. So, that's it. Thank you again for listening and I will see you next week.

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