Ep. 33 - Creativity with Miles Seiden

[Music] Recording, recording, recording, recording. Alright. Welcome to episode 33 of Synchronicity. My guest today is my good friend, Miles Seiden. I'm going to get to my, like, I always do this, right? I guess if it's your first time you don't know what I do, but I introduce the guest, I say who it is, and then I immediately talk and ramble about stuff that you probably don't care about for another good 10 to 15 minutes. But I will get to Miles and I'll explain who he is and why I think you're really going to love this episode in just a little bit, but first going to get down to stuff that I've written down to remind myself to talk about.

Congratulations to Christine in Woodland, California. FYI, and I've had a lot of book giveaway winners who live in California, like a high percentage relative to how many there have been, so I don't know what that's about. But Christine, you won Star Hawks. I've already been, it's already on the way. We've already spoken, but Star Hawks, the fifth sacred thing, which is a book Mikey Campman, last week's guest recommended, is on its way to you, so enjoy that. Book giveaway, this week, wisdom publications. You know, wisdom publications, they do some amazing, they're just, hey, they're really nice people.

Kestrel, who is my contact there, who I've known for a few years, she is awesome. Wisdom Pubs in general is awesome, the base of Massachusetts, I believe, just put together some amazing offerings and publications. They're up there with Shumbala for me in terms of a publishing house that I think really does awesome stuff, and they're a nonprofit, I think. So, they have been kind enough, and they've offered, and I've accepted, for them to send books directly to people from their catalog. So, that is what I'm going to do this week. So, this week, I'm going to be giving away a copy of Kindfulness, where I'm not Wisdom Pubs is.

So, that's this week's book giveaway. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, every week, I give away a book, and I do that by, if you join the Synchronicity community, which you do by going to Syncpodcast.com, S-Y-N-C, Podcast.com, you join the community there, it should be pretty straightforward. You're automatically entered forever in the book giveaway contest, so you have a chance forever to win every single week. Even if you, like, tune out and don't even listen to the podcast, you're still entered and you're still winning. I have no way of knowing that, but, I don't know. See, it's your prerogative.

So, yeah, that's the book giveaway stuff. I don't have a ton of stuff. I'm not going to, last week, was like a 20-minute intro. This week is not a 20-minute intro, but I do want to follow up on the charity thing that we're going to be doing, right? I don't know if that's the right word for it, charity. We'll come up with some better thing for that, or I'll try to. If you have an idea for what I should call this, let me know. But, essentially, the idea is we're going to be raising money. I want to say we, you, me, everyone who's part of the community in general. It's community now. Isn't that fun?

We're going to be raising money, essentially, for a cause. The cause, we are in the process of determining. This week, we're going to pick it. The way we're determining that is I've had a few people. Last week, I said, if there's a cause or there's something you think this should go to, let me know. I think it would be cool. I have a few things that I'm interested in, but if you guys have some suggestions, it would be cool to change it either on a month-to-month or quarter-by-quarter basis to send money to different organizations or people. Thank you to the people who recommended charities this month.

One was a suggestion that I actually thought about, but I was nice to see it validated, which is the GoFundMe. Finding people on GoFundMe, either people we know or don't know, finding a cause, and then sending it to that person. If we want to do that, we can pick one, let's say, this month. Pick one, if there's someone on GoFundMe or if it's another charity. Jen, Jen, I hope your name is Jen. You'll forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but she had visited Nepal. Was it Jenny? Jen? Jenny? It's one of those. Sorry, Jen or Jenny, but she had visited Nepal, and there was a fund there that basically went to orphan children who were orphaned during the occupation, and just a lot of bad shit happened in Nepal.

It's called Sereng's Fund, T-S-E-R-I-N-G-S Fund. It's a woman who runs it and basically is supporting orphans in Nepal and surrounding areas, so that's pretty sweet. That's on the list too. What I'd like to do is maybe get three to five, and then we can do an informal poll, and if no one participates in the poll, 'cause who participates in polls all the time, right, then I'll pick one, and we'll just do that. I think it'll be cool. I think this is something that could continue to grow. That's my hope and intention for it. I just think it would be really awesome if, like any given month, we could make a decent contribution to something that we all collectively want to do.

Like, what's it? If enough people gave five bucks, ten bucks, not a huge investment in our part, but we know that we're giving to someone who it is going to have a big impact on their lives, so that's cool. Yeah, and I believe just to follow up on the Serengue Fund thing, they're setting up schools too, like a Montessori school and another one for eight to eighteen-year-olds, so it gives us a cool thing, and I think that's a pretty sweet thing. Okay, one other thing, before I get to Miles, is a new podcast launched this week, not on MindPod Network. I'm going to get to that later in the outro of this episode, but on feral audio, Dustin Marshall was my second guest on Synchronicity, and one of my favorite guests, and we talked about some really serious shit.

That's why it was one of my favorite episodes. He had talked about Suicide, just a really deep hour. Plus, one of my favorite episodes, truthfully, just because of what we were talking about. But his podcast network is called Feral Audio, awesome, amazing stuff. The hit percentage for amazing podcasts is like, you know, 100% there, incredible. But they launched a new podcast this week, which I had the privilege of listening to, which is called Fear-based Life by Mel Stevens, and she interviewed Steve Adji. Shit, I don't know how to say it. I think I'm going to go with Adji. And holy crap, this is an amazing podcast.

They're talking about death. Steve's dad had died the year before. Mel was dealing with like a spiritual and crisis breakdown from her aunt dying. It's very awesome shit though. And what I love about it is they're able to hold this space that is very vulnerable, but very real. And just like, there's a whole lot of truth. I don't want it to sound sappy, but it's just, it really is an amazing show. There's one episode right now, but there's going to be more. I subscribed, I rated and reviewed. I highly recommend it, not on my iPod network, where we're not competing. It's just something I think you guys would really enjoy.

So yeah, check that out. It's called Fear-based Life from Feral Audio, and Mel Stevens is the host. Okay, done with all that stuff. Miles. So Miles is one of my friends who I've known now for about three years. Really, just like one of the smartest people I know, but also one of just like the kindest, like just a genuine nice, just the guy you want to be around who's a good dude. There's no ulterior motive with Miles. He's just trying to help. He's trying to work through his own stuff. And you'll hear that in this episode. Like it's a very transparent and honest episode. It's less of an interview.

I'm not a great interviewer. I'm okay. I know this and I know I've gotten some feedback on this too in the comments and people have written into me. I talk a lot. I do listen, but I also talk a lot. So I'm like, I give myself like a 6.3 out of 10 on the interviewing skill. This isn't really so much an interview as it is just us talking. So I'm trying to weave that in. That's part of the reason I like the in-person ones, which this wasn't. But since we were close friends before, it felt like that. But that's why I like the in-person ones so much. But you'll see this is a conversation. And we talk about, I think some pretty cool shit.

We talk about creativity and spirituality and how those things mix. Then we talk about what the fuck is spirituality anyway? What does that really mean? Is there a better word for it? What are we all talking about when we say that if we're saying it? How does it turn people off? We talk about specifically design principles based on spiritual concepts. So being very minimal in a lot of ways, not overwhelming, trying to find calm and space and peace and how that actually manifests through design principles. Which I think is pretty fucking cool. We talk about the guru stuff again, right? Guru, really fucking weird concept for a lot of people.

Also appropriated to mean tech, marketing guru. So we talk about that word a little bit. Pretty cool. Semantics, right? Semantics. And Miles took a trip to India last year. And he was there, I think, for what? Three months? Six months? A long time. Miles, I'm sorry, I forget. He was there a really long time and he would skype me periodically and I'd see and he'd tell me stories and he was just fucking nuts. But, you know, it's a crazy place. I've never been to India, but the people I know who have usually are like, yeah, that was definitely an experience. Whether positive, negative, somewhere in between, there's usually an experience that happens.

So we talk a little bit about his trip. And then just trying to like, like, what does all this shit mean? What are we doing this for? Why are we talking about these things? Is there a point to it? If we try to pin down the meaning of what this is, is it elusive? So we just kind of, you know, go into what is a path? What are we trying to do? What has helped us? And also not taking things too seriously. I think that's a big thing that came out of this. So, yeah, hopefully this wasn't that long. But here's the episode. I got nothing else to say. Oh, no, rate and review. Oh, the donations thing. Thank you to the people who have been donating.

Why did I say it like that? Documentary last week. Donating? Yeah, there we go. Thank you to the people who have been donating to synchronicity. That's awesome. What I really wasn't expecting it. It is, it does feel nice when people are like, "Hey, I like this. I'm going to donate." So thank you so much. You can do that by going to the website. I'm not going to harangue about it. But if you want to, I totally love it. So without further ado, here is Miles Siden. [Music] How are you doing? Doing well, yeah. I just had a shower. So I thought I'd look sexy for this totally vocal performance here. Well, you never know.

We could use the audio. I mean, the video for something else. It's funny because I actually had all of these videos that I now only record the audio so the video doesn't even record. But I used to record the videos just because that was the default. And I was like, "I'll use these." And I'm like, "I'm never going to use these." Like, they're literally like, I understand maybe why somebody would want to watch like Joe Rogan experience in his nice studio or something like that. Right. Or like, Harman Town, you know, like a cool person. Sure. But like, come on. Like, really two people talking on Skype is not.

It's like live from my closet. [Laughs] I mean, what's my background? I have to, FYI, when I record on Skype, I have to put a window in front of my face because otherwise I look at myself too much. Oh, God. [Laughs] I know. I know it's distracting. Like, I'm so pretty. [Laughs] It's really fucking, it's like a, it's like narcissist. The equivalent of narcissist staring into the pond is me staring at the little window. It's true. It's true. No, because it's like, am I looking okay? But even if it's a podcast, like, the screens are always distracting. Whether in a sports bar or whatever. Yeah, I just, I generally would prefer not to see myself, not because I'm not happy with the way I look, but because I think I get fixated on myself when I see myself.

Like, I really, like, I try not to look in mirrors very often. Right. That's true because you're going to find something that disagrees with you. More often than not. Unless you're just, you know, constantly doing what you should be doing. But, you know, who, who does that? All right. Well, let's just assume we've already started. So, thank you, by the way, for coming on the show. Of course. I'm excited. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. So, I have, I wanted to talk about a lot of things with you. But you mentioned something yesterday that I thought was really cool when it was a good place to start, which was the parallels between design and creativity and some of the quote unquote spiritual concepts.

And also, after that, I want to talk about, like, the word spiritual and what all that means to and are kind of how we engage with that word. Sure. But I thought the kind of minimalist simplicity thing you were talking about was pretty cool. So, you just, I want to hear about that. Yeah. I mean, ever since the beginning of design in the Victorian era, when it was really huge, you can even see a movie like the Prestige and see how there's billboards all over the place. It's always been a mess of messages, just screaming at people. And it's no different, whether the technology changes as it has today or whether you're using just printing presses.

So, there's always just a bombardment of images around you. And Apple is one of the first ones to step out and say, "Hey, you know, in order to suggest the messages in a different way, let's try being minimal. Let's try being quieter about how we express ourselves." And that's really started this whole new trend of quieter types of messaging. I mean, it still exists. There's still this maximalism that goes on and there's still just the mass bombardment going on. But the messages that really get out there tend to be the ones that are doing it a little more subtly and are going off of that Apple model.

Well, it's interesting, too, because I feel like if you've studied or have read about some of the secret societies from the mystery schools back into where the Greeks were through, all the way now through advertising even, the psychological impacts, or the extra impact of symbols and those things, which are very minimal at its core symbol. I mean, that's pre-word. Always do seem to have an incredibly powerful impact on consciousness, so it's interesting to see that kind of be developed not only through the web technologies that exist, but really what you're talking about, like a whole branding thing, like Apple.

Apple is known now as something that's clear. And sometimes it's not. Let's be clear. There's things on Apple that do not work well on my device that's like, "What are you guys thinking?" But the design and the feel of it, that is something that I feel like Steve Jobs in particular was very key in trying to hone in on, so it's interesting. Absolutely. Yeah, and symbols have really been a long-term influence on our culture. I mean, design is everywhere. It's everything that's going on. Whether it's by some sort of divine source, or whether it's made by humans, which could really be the same thing, it's surrounding us.

And it's even in our language. I mean, when you look at the Roman alphabet, those are all symbols that we've associated with certain meanings. And they used to have different meanings. So it's interesting how this constantly evolves and brings us something entirely new from a different origin. So what do you think is it a natural tendency to kind of overwhelm people or messaging to make it so complex and complicated and bombarding? Is that just a natural tendency? Is that something that's superimposed? What do you think as someone who's focused on this stuff? What's your take on that? I think it's just easier. It's almost lazier to bombard people because it's really a lack of focus.

I mean, I used to work at a big branding agency whose core message was simplicity, and the whole idea behind that is the same as this minimalistic type of resurgence, which is that you want to find the focus in order to express the message. It's really easy to shoot a bunch of stuff out without thinking consciously about what it is, but it's a lot harder to find focus and simplicity. Yeah, I mean, I think that's something that even in my day job that I find the majority of my conversations with clients are about that. I personally have a natural tendency. My creative output is typically very quick and very intense.

I listen sometimes back to stuff that I've made 10 years ago, and I'm like, "I made all this stuff in two days. How is that possible? I can slave over something and not have it happen like that at all." So I'm someone who naturally tends to do that big creative, "Let's get everything out. Let's do it good." But I'm always finding myself advocating, especially in either design or web development projects or just strategy projects, to take a step back and focus on what is this serving? What's the real goal? What's the intention behind this? Do we need to get this out next week? Does it have to be on this timeframe or is it worthwhile figuring out the strategy that underline and underpins this?

And I do find this is what you were talking about yesterday, is this also is really important when approaching with "spiritual things" because I mean, I'm not talking about being bombarded with different things. I mean, this podcast alone, I probably crossed on 10 to 15 to 20 different types of angles of spiritual practices. Okay, let's bring these in the next point. Because spiritual is one of these dirty words at this point, and I think it is because I'm spiritual and not religious. That's been a joke since the 80s, right? So at this point, it's probably sufficiently watered down that just the word would turn people off.

It's also fine. I put this podcast under the religion and spirituality subheading, and I question it every day. And on Google Play, I actually put it under entertainment. So it's something I always ask myself, what am I talking about? What does this actually mean? So I'm interested to hear what is your take on the word and how do you kind of relate to it? You know, I'm recalling Tim Ferriss's list of words that you shouldn't use, and one of them is spirituality. And the problem with it is it's another way to define yourself, whereas if you are following some sort of path of compassion and love and awareness, which people tend to associate with spirituality, you're already doing it, and it's just adding another label that actually confuses the message.

Why not just be a good person? Why not just try to be compassionate and loving, and your practice is just a private thing? It's almost like a table stake for your life. Like if we are beings of spirit, as I believe we are that are incorporated into a form, well, then we're already acting out our spirituality, so to speak. So there's no need to have an additional label. That being said, you know, sometimes it's just more convenient to use a label like that. I most wish we had another one to say. Another nominalization or label. Yeah, I also try to think about, I mean, another word I use to kind of differentiate from spirituality is sometimes like consciousness, exploration, things like that, because I think it touches on these concepts, at least in Buddhism, right?

There's emptiness, and then there's bliss or compassion, and the merging of them too is a big teaching, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, and I wonder if sometimes we're not doing any better. We're probably not doing any better than these people from like five, six thousand years ago in terms of like they really wanted to explore this stuff on an inner level, and I wonder if some of returning to those words, but again, think of the word like heart, right? Like this is the weirdest thing to me. There are people who have a negative connotation for the word compassion. That's fucking nuts, right? Like that's a really weird thing.

Like even me, and I am, I will cop to being like very judgy about certain things like I hear the word like that, like grumbly about it. But compassion is to me even like weird that someone would find something wrong, but I read a whole article about like how that's a too mushy of a word and it turns people off. Yeah. Well, a few years ago, I actually did this retreat at the Zen Center north of San Francisco, Green Gulch, and they spoke of the Brahmacarias. So you had to sit daily with these practices. Some of it was study, some of it was meditation, and they speak of the Brahmacarias, which are these qualities that have an initial tone to them.

For instance, compassion might be one, equanimity would be another, but that they can easily veer into one thing or another. So, you know, if you have too much compassion, it can almost veer into condescension as an example. So what's interesting is, and this also ties back to branding as well, because when you try to define yourself, you have to be clear on your words and, you know, create these guardrails around them because it can veer into those types of perceptions if you're not right on the money. It's really like taking the middle path between one extreme or another. Yeah. And trying to be kind of coherent in what you're trying to communicate. I mean, it's always a challenge because we're trying to use, especially when we start talking things about like, you know, associated with mystery and things that are not directly knowable.

How do you talk about them? It's like akin to the experience of when you do psychedelics, you know. There's some stuff that you experience that no matter how you really want to communicate it, even the most skilled of us, the Terence McKenna can't really do. And he even says, like, there's no, I'd like to tell you all about it, but there's no words for it. So I think it's one of those things that, I mean, ultimately, though, to make this less esoteric and less kind of like out there, I do think, though, that there are a certain set of qualities and like-minded kind of interests of whatever we're defining as spiritual in this context, like being a good person, you know, looking, helping other people, helping yourself, trying to be more engaged, more aware.

I do think that's like very important stuff to talk about. So we do have to find the words. I mean, I also think that's kind of what this podcast is. This is why I bring people on. So yeah, but I am always interested in, and I especially would like to hear more about, you know, like, what does spiritual mean for you? What are things that are associated? And when I say spiritual, not the shitty meaning of the word, but like the things that we know that we're talking about. So like, what do you include under that kind of crappy word umbrella? What's interesting, it's a little bit of a fuzzy mess. Like, as you know, I spent three months in India at the beginning of the year, and, you know, most of our Western types of spirituality are really adopted from the East, so adopted from Buddhism and adopted from Hinduism, which are technically, in our way of viewing it, religions, but shouldn't even exactly be religious. Like Buddhism comes from an idea of, you know, one person sitting and discovering their own truth. That's not a religion. It's really- Inter-exploration.

Inter-exploration. Yeah. So, you know, that's one thing that really is inherent to all forms of spirituality, and all of the ritual on top of it is interesting, but that tends to be more of a cultural application than anything, and that's where it starts veering into religion. And I'd say the spirituality, for me, is really the internal practices, as you put it, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like seconds ago. Yeah. But it's really the internal practices. What is your practice? And how are you bettering yourself, and constantly re-evaluating yourself? Not that it has to be in your head that you're re-evaluating yourself, but that noticing when you make an error in judgment, noticing when you hurt someone else, and trying not to repeat those same things. I mean, I think that's the spirit learning.

It's reaching out to the other forms of spirit that are out there, the other bodies, the other people, the environments, the animals. It's all interrelated, and that spirituality can only really come from everyone doing their own exploration. Right. Which I think is important. And luckily, we have the benefit of a lot of different things out there, so you can gravitate towards what works for you, which is, you know, truthfully, we're in the midst of this. And in this podcast, by the time it's out it will have already happened, but my iPod network is becoming its own distinct entity, and that what you just mentioned is like a key part of it. It's going to be really a spectrum of entry points and touch points for people, whatever their persuasion is, or at any given time. Like sometimes I'm into very different things than I was two, three years ago.

Like, that's just a fact. But being able to engage and hear people talk about a lot of these different things in a way that makes sense for them is really important. Okay, I want to go back though. Let's tell me more about -- I mean, we've had conversations, obviously. But tell me more about your trip to India and kind of why -- what led to you going there this most recent time, and just kind of some of your experiences, because you did some cool stuff. So, yeah. Tell them into that alone. You know, it's probably a longer trajectory than just a trip. And I have the state here that it certainly wasn't a vacation, because when you go for an extended period of time, and three months for India actually feels short in some ways, and yet while you're there, it can feel like yours. It's this kind of funky place where anything really happens.

Some things are magical. You know, you have the extremes of beauty and poverty that are happening at the same time. But the trajectory probably goes much further back, which is really -- it was trying to discover my own freedom. And this really was meant to be an experiment in how can you work using maybe new methods of thinking, for instance, not necessarily going into an office every day, but how can you do the things that you want to do in your life? Like, you know, everyone wants to travel, probably. Or most people want to travel. They want to experience new things. And, you know, that was a big thing for me. I wanted to seek out other cultures because it always brings a new perspective to your own life.

And then you're able to understand other people better, because we're just -- we're all the same. I mean, we need the same things. We need water. We need air. You know, we've just created these differences that make us war with each other. But, you know, as the shadows keep appearing, we need to kind of go back and start to recognize the common humanity between us. So, you know, on a larger philosophical level, that's why it went. And on a, you know, more personal level, it really was this experiment of even the simple things that can Wi-Fi work when you're way out of the bunnies. And the answer is yes and yes, sometimes. I mean, they're all to blackouts.

And I, you know, bought a dongle, for instance, and that can kind of help the situation. So, always having a backup was good. But, you know, all of these things were huge learnings. Yeah, I spent three months there and started in the South in this little mountain town called Tiru Vanamalai. It's where Ramana Maharshi, when he became enlightened, lived. And, you know, he never left that area. So, you know, you could go up to the mountain where he meditated in caves. You could go to the top of the mountain where people are living. Was it Arunachala, Arunchala? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Right, so it's this holy shiva mountain. And it's the top is black from Puja's, you know, where they're just lighting these fires all the time.

And it's a constant hub of activity. Like, every full moon, you walk around the entire mountain, I mean, which sounds big, but it actually just takes maybe four hours. It's not a huge, it's one of these freestanding mountains, like Mount Shasta, you know, or Kilimanjaro. But, I mean, absolutely amazing, very powerful place. You know, it's one of these places on earth that draws you. I mean, I couldn't even imagine going there and not feeling something. That's, you know, and that's the interesting thing to me because even just in regular travels to places, and I don't know how many people, totally, I figure if you're listening to this podcast, you're open to this stuff.

Like, there really is a palpable energy to almost every place you go, and that you interact with. And I love when you find a place that is just, like, buzzing with stuff. And it's not surprising that that place with Ramana Maharshi would be doing that. I know this could sound woo-woo to people, but like, I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, for me, the most recent place I went to that was like, that was Maui, or in Jamaica, too. Like, there are just places where they're just, like, resonant with, like, a totally cool type of energy that's objectively present. So, yeah, that's the one.

That's true. But, you know, for people who maybe don't understand this as much, it's kind of akin to when you see someone across the room. Like, the first time you saw your significant other, when you met them, and you feel that energy, you know that you connected with them. It's the same with the place. I don't see that as any different. And to be clear, I've long been a pretty analytical person. Even for being a creative. I mean, I've been very much on that side of the brain. Part of the spirituality has been helping to move it more into an emotional kind of heart space. But, you know, so I am a skeptic and I'm cynical about various things. So, I feel like when I feel something, it's pretty significant.

But that's why it's significant. I mean, that to me is, I also, and a lot of people know me are probably scoffing at this, but I also consider myself a skeptic in a lot of ways. Which is a tough thing to process knowing how many things I actually believe in. But I really do like, I try to maintain that healthy level of skepticism and not just going with like only a gut feeling or only this because there really is, it's more valuable when it's a directly validated experience. It's not like everything is magic all of the time. Well, maybe it is. But maybe you're not in India. Yeah, exactly. Or like, listen, I've had periods of my life that coincided with psychedelic use that, you know, were very, very magical over and I think objectively they were.

I mean, maybe also subjectively. But I do think that that it does validate when you do have those experiences independent of anything else you're doing psychedelic wise or otherwise. I really do think it imbues it with more kind of, I don't know, power is the right word, but it makes you, it's a thing that hooks you in a more way that can start, then start in my experience developing into an aspect of faith. That isn't like a woo-woo faith. That isn't just like a leap of faith. But it's actually like, I am now cultivating something that really allows me to believe in this in a way that helps me.

Well, I think it's actually smart to have a healthy skepticism because when you're seeking as many people are, but especially in these so-called spiritual circles, you are vulnerable and it's not the best practice to necessarily just completely believe in something. I mean, it's good to kind of sit with it for a while. I've bounced around a ton. I've bounced around to different schools of yoga. I've bounced around to different types of meditation. And ultimately, I think the practice is personalized. You have to find what works for you, but when a red flag goes off and tells you, ooh, a little cultish.

Now, it may not even necessarily be a cult, but it may just not resonate with you. That's right. That's right. Which is, you know, the same with this, you know, idea of a guru that we've been talking about, right? That's the other thing I wanted to talk about. Yeah. I mean, that's another word and another thing. I think when most people hear the word "guru" and not most people listening to this podcast, but most people, independent of that, they think of, you know, some Indian guy or some Asian guy, you know, either training someone in martial arts or making them sit down and meditate on top of a mountain.

And like, that's the generalized conceptualized way of doing it, where the actual concept, and I'm not even going to try to say that I know exactly how the concept is meant in like the ancient way. But what it really is is a teacher who's more than just someone who's telling you what's going on, but is showing you a direct path towards your own truth, which is that you are the guru too. You are God yourself. You are every God guru equal self. It's all the same thing, which was Ramana Maharshi's thing. That's why Ramana Maharshi writes. So, you know, I think, and that's a very difficult concept and so incredibly easily manipulated by anyone who can speak the language, right?

But this is, just to draw a quick little parallel here is there's, do you know about NLP neuro-linguistic programming? This is something that was very big, and I had heard about it a little before this whole pickup artist movement, but pickup artists used to use it. It's basically, it's basically like a psychological way to kind of coerce people into doing things, and it's basically like there's something where you mimic rapport, like if someone is leaning in, you lean in, if someone is talking like this, you talk like this, and it's like God help the people who have to remember to do this shit in conversations instead of just being like a normal person, but it's, the guru stuff is very easily co-opted in the sense that if you can speak the language and play the part, you can pass yourself off as a guru.

Did you ever see that movie Kumari? I didn't, but I heard about it. It's amazing, yeah. Well, for listeners, this documentary where an Indian guy actually, you know, he looks like anyone in fitting into society with short hair and all that. You know, he grows his hair out, he grows a long beard, he puts on a type of dress, he affects a certain attitude, and he amasses a following. And it's pretty amazing, the whole journey, it's definitely a recommended thing, but absolutely. But here's the funny thing, one of the lessons from that film without giving anything away is that people still will take something valuable from a guru type figure.

Because when you're looking for something, and there were good answers that he gave, I'm sure he studied some, you know, scriptures and things like that to prepare for his role. But, you know, ultimately, any type of person, even if they're a false guru, could be giving you something valuable. It's just like- They likely are. That's the truth. There's always a teaching and even a horribly shitty situation. It's there. It's there, always, right? It is there. But, you know, maybe it's that it stops at a certain level. Just like, you know, if you learn from a true master, you're going to get a little bit higher on your path.

Then if you learn from someone who's just teaching you the basics. Right. And that applies just not even in a spiritual or inner development sense, but just for anything, like using instruments as a good teacher. This is a conversation, Lama Somo brought this up as an analogy. She was like, you know, you'd want to learn from a piano teacher who knew what they were doing and knew the foundational elements and start there before just like delving in and, you know, picking a little bit from here from someone who learned this and that. And I think that definitely applies to the guru stuff. I think it's especially another thing that helps me keep the guru stuff in perspective is Carl Jung made a very astute point when he was studying.

He traveled to a lot of different places and he made the astute observation that I'm still a Westerner experiencing these things as a Westerner. I can't ever really know what it's like to be in this mindset. Like I can approach it. I can maybe stay with it a little bit, but I'm still engaging with it from my perspective. Right. Right. And I notice a lot with the all of the movements that have kind of sprouted up, especially over the past 20, 30 years, dating back to the 60s, is there's a lot of exotic exoticizing, a lot of exoticizing to the point where it's like, what exactly are you doing this for?

Like, where is the line? Like everyone can get something helpful from something that's meant to be helpful, but there is, it seems to me like, you know, there's the people who want to go and put on all the beads and get all that stuff and get all these things. And it's like, I myself have worn beads at times. I like to think that I never wore them because I was trying to show people that I was wearing beads or I always wanted to play the role. But to me, it usually did attach some significance. So I don't want to kind of shit on people who do that's their thing at all. Like, I mean that. Like, if you really have a reason for doing these things, regardless of whether you're exoticizing it, that's valuable.

But there is this other element that is kind of like a outside of self thing to connect to that I think people gravitate to. And I think it's very tied in with the guru thing. And it's also there's something appealing and unappealing, depending on who you are, of putting your trust in someone who's not you, who's a person, or who was a person. That's a big thing. That's up to you to evaluate. So as you said before, if God grew in self or one, that means that the guru is also inside you. So the point is you look at that message. I mean, to me, and especially, you know, what's coming from some of Rambas's teachings, for instance, is that the guru is meant to be a reflection of yourself. He always said that the guru is a nobody, not actually a somebody.

The only reason that they're considered as somebody is because they have a following in an art traditional society, especially in the West, we kind of celebrity ties people. If I can change a noun into a verb is. Yeah, you can. So that's what we do. We put them on a pedestal and, you know, really, they're only on a short pedestal. You know, they've worked at it. They've become enlightened, maybe spontaneously, but they're there to serve. That's the whole role. And the way that we've co-opted it in the West is that we've brought the idea of a guru into someone that is an expert at something. It's really supposed to be, it's almost like your own teacher or reflection of yourself, but not necessarily someone who's, you know, a design guru, a pod character, a lawyer, a guru.

I mean, you know, we've just changed it, but that's what we do in the West. We've done the same thing with yoga, you know, which is totally fine. I mean, I love a good like exercise yoga class. I think that there's nothing wrong with that, but it's good to know the history. It's good to know that yoga came from another culture that part of that is another culture. It's like devotional, you know. It's like Christopher Columbus coming to the Americas and being like, "These are Indians." And they're like, "No, what?" Or like, "I guess you're Indians now. That's what you're going to be." So there's still a baseball team, the Indians.

So, you know what I mean? And it's a picture of Chief Wahoo. I think they got rid of him. They got rid of him this year. But there was the longstanding mascot of the Cleveland Indians was a guy named Chief Wahoo, like a cartoonish, you know. I remember what it looks like. I didn't know. Yeah, yeah. That was his name. In case it wasn't offensive enough, they needed a Chief Wahoo. Exactly. Now, I mean, I think that is really important. And this also, I mean, it's mixed in with the guru stuff in a lot of different, even in Buddhism, but like, this concept of lineage. And what I've been really gravitating towards, especially recently with Tibetan Buddhism, Vajrayana practice, is the concepts of lineage isn't just like, "Hey, this guy's reincarnated and we recognize him as such and that's that. So there you go." That is a huge part of it.

I do not mean to undercut that at all. It's very important, equally, maybe the most important. But what they're actually doing is giving oral teachings that have been passed down for thousands of years in very specific practices. And in addition, they're teaching it to four or five other people. It's not just this one we're besting in that. So even if this, let's say they made a mistake, which I don't think they do, but let's say they made a mistake and they identified someone as a reincarnated master. That person is still getting all those teachings. They're still going to get the benefits, so even if they're not.

But I think what you're saying about how we've kind of co-opted the word "guru" and made it. I've had people refer to me as a digital technology guru. I've had that happen. And I'm not. But just showing you the degree of which the word has come to take on. And I think it's an interesting word because I barely understand the word and I consider myself to have a guru who's a disembodied guru. But that's through direct experiences that at times I wish I could invalidate at other times it makes total sense. But at this point I've accepted it and kind of meshed the idea of Neem Krolli Baba as a guru with the overall kind of mist or ether of what anyone's conception of God is.

It's an emanation of that, not him only and fuck all everyone else. He was the only one in the same way that when he said something like Hanuman and Jesus Christ are the same, they're the same. I get that. That makes a lot of sense to me. And speaking of Hanuman, I remember that story where Hanuman and Ram are having a conversation and Ram says to Hanuman that you are a part of me. It's just that sometimes you forget that. Sometimes you forget and that's when you're separate and that's when you serve me. So I view the guru thing as when the guru is not yourself, when you don't actually remember your own power.

It's good to call upon someone else because as human beings we tend to be social creatures and we tend to call on someone else to help us and ask for advice. It's very hard to see your own situation clearly sometimes and you kind of need a mirror to do that to you. Sometimes it takes suffering, sometimes it takes pain to get you back on the right path. You know, it's always reaching outside of yourself to find that guru and that's not a bad thing either. That's typical. I do it all the time. I'm not even saying that. I'm just saying that when I'm not feeling quite right in myself or maybe a major event happens and I need to reassess.

It's always good to look outside but ultimately you're going to keep the most even when you're able to go through the practice that makes sense for you. And you know, like all of these outside events don't affect you as much. Yeah, and I think the added benefit when you check in with yourself is you can start to develop the confidence that maybe you do have some of the answers to the questions that you're asking regularly and that can be validated when you maybe start getting things right over and over again that like, oh, this is, I did listen to what I was really saying. Like the little voice in people's head, that little conscience voice. I always use this as an example because my conscience.

I was never like an evil nasty. I mean, I was a nasty little shit when I was a kid times, but like, I always, there's a clear delineation before I did LSD when I was 15. I described it as having my head squarely at my ass. I didn't recognize that anything I did affected anyone else. I was really only looking out for me. I didn't even know there was another way to be. Like, I was like, this is obviously how everyone does it. I wasn't even thinking about it. And then when I did a psychedelic for the first time, I was like, oh, fuck. Like, all right, now I see this is not how it is, which is a, which is, I think, an important thing because if you're already able to kind of see it from that perspective, you know, you maybe don't have to do because I always talk about psychedelics on the show.

And I think there's a ton of validity to them. And I think depending on your attention. But I also think, like, I didn't touch a psychedelic for a period of over 10 years from my mid 20s or from my early 20s to my early 30s. And it was fine. It was totally great. Didn't need it. And I don't really do them that much anymore. But when I do, and I tried to do this when I was younger, too, I always had an intention. So I don't want people to feel like we're listening who maybe don't have access or like maybe they're like, man, I don't really approve of it. I don't advocate for everyone doing it. I'm not saying put it in the water supply, go and find it out.

I just know for the things that it's helped me with various substances, I can only say that they've helped me. And it's not totally necessary. And I'm the same way. I mean, it helped me in the sense that I was pretty rigid. You know, my conditioning was to do things this way. You know, I was a good student and all that stuff. And I maintained that even after trying them for the first time. But it really helped me to expand. And it's funny because it was done less consciously. It was kind of out of curiosity. I mean, now I really see the value in respecting the plants, respecting the fungi, whatever it tends to be that you do. But, you know, back then, it was just for the sake of exploration.

But then what I saw is that it really does help to expand consciousness. It's true. It does. It's not recommended for everyone because some people aren't ready for it. Some people don't even need it. Some people really get the message. But as Timothy Leary said, when you get the message hang up, I think it was Timothy Leary, right? Okay. I've said that. I've quoted. I've attributed that quote to many different people. I said it to someone. I said it was Romdas. And then someone told me it was Alan Watts. And I don't know. Someone said it. It makes sense. So whoever said it. Thank you for saying that.

So, you know, I view them as checkups. Sometimes you go back to psychedelics because you're at a place in your life where A, it's not a stupid idea to do it, where you actually might gain some benefit from doing it because you might be stuck. And maybe that's it, but stuck, but not mentally unstable, of course. But it really does bring about this connectivity idea. And going to India is another site of seeing that. You don't have to do psychedelics. You can travel just to see that, but not just tourists travel. It's great to see the sites and things like that. But I saw some very hard things over there. It's very difficult to see what I saw over there.

I mean, people are living in absolute poverty. I mean, there's like, there's Western poverty, which is also, I'm sure not pleasant, but there is like, abject poverty where it's, I don't even know how they're living. I mean, sometimes you'll see like seven different sugar cane stands on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. And I'm wondering, how is anyone surviving off of this? They're selling the exact same product. I mean, it's really something else to behold. Anyway. Yeah, no, I absolutely hear you. I mean, that's something that struck me and it wasn't abject poverty, but it was poverty in Jamaica.

When you travel outside of the localized places, I spoke about this when I came back. And I think a lot of the poverty there is probably like it is in India, although India is a much bigger country. Much, much bigger is, you know, the government is not really looking out for people's interest there and especially what that can do to people who are liable and able to be taken advantage of. They can do some really fucked up shit. But yeah, I was struck by that too. That's another thing that really, you're talking about two concepts that I want to touch on. I guess we'll start here with the impact. Actually, no, let's go. I want to go to the thing you mentioned where the interconnectedness with the psychedelics.

And thank you. Yeah, thank you for that because I had actually lost my train of thought there, but I was trying to bring it back around the fact that you see the interconnectivity. Well, that's good. I brought it back for you. So we're good. You'd be surprised. Like, seemingly, I always know what I'm talking about and can stay on track. And I think it's just years of smoking marijuana has allowed me to like recap like short, basically account for short term memory loss at times so I can always just kind of find it. Oh, there it was. Yeah, but the interconnectedness, I think, is very important because I think it's on a broader theme of exploring the concept of community.

And when you realize everything is interconnected, then you realize that kind of everything is your community. But I think that's one of the things that can be an antidote and weirdly also a poison in the pursuit of inner development for the betterment of yourself and for everyone else, all sentient beings. Is this aspect of community really linking with like-minded people? I mean, even in difficult situations, being able to talk to people who are maybe going through something similar or had gone something or just there to listen. Those are the things that at least in my particular path on life have been equally, if not more valuable, than all of the reading I've done, than all of the meditating I've done, than all of the study, you know, all of the...

It's having the conversations. That's why I do this podcast. I think the things that organically emerge from a conversation that can be shared with the community is tremendously valuable. I only know that because that's happened to me. I've listened to podcasts. I've listened to radio shows. I've watched things. I'm like, "Wow, I really get what these people are communicating." So I think that's a really, really important concept. And I like the connection you're making between psychedelics because you do. You do realize the interconnectedness. You realize, "If I fuck this person over or I'm being shitty to this person, well, not only is that not a good thing to do for that person, but I'm also kind of that person."

And it's also going to come back to me. The law of karma dictates such. It's kind of fascinating because even mushrooms themselves, for instance, I don't remember the name of the guy. I think he's done a TED talk or something like that, but they're interconnected. It's actually one of the most known neural networks out there in nature. It's the biggest underground. There's these huge, mile-long structures of interconnected fungi. So we're actually tapping into their own consciousness. It's kind of fascinating when you do these things because just like anything else that you bring into your body, they possess certain chemicals.

An apple has certain chemicals, just like a mushroom has certain chemicals. And when you put it into your body, you're tapping into whatever that history of that vegetable or... I know, the meat and whatnot. I mean, I do too, but that's another topic. Well, this is the karmic seed that's planted throughout everything. I've spoken about this before, too, but in the same way that if the cow, the burger you just ate, if the cow was slaughtered in some horrible, scary end-of-life traumatic experience, you better believe that energy is carrying down through that, through the disgruntled employee who put it together at a place where they're not getting paid enough.

And that all does impact the energetic, we consume food now, and that's how we get our energy. I think that carries for marijuana. I think it carries for psychedelics. I think it carries for everything. Knowing that without letting it totally affect your every second of every single thing you do every day, I think there's a way to hold on to that being true and then use that to slowly guide decisions. And then also, since we're talking about a lot of inner development and trying to make progress, whatever that means, I think also the aspect of having patience with yourself and being forgiving of yourself.

Trust me, I was a vegan for two and a half years. I am not a vegan now. I know exactly why it became vegan. I haven't forgotten any of those reasons, so I violate some deep ethical standard on some level that I do, but I also don't totally kill myself over it, especially if I'm not capable or able to make the change now. I incrementally try to do it, which is, I think, very important. You should always be striving for some level and perfection that you want to be or whatever you're trying to do, but don't kill yourself about those things. And it doesn't even work for everyone. I mean, for some people to have autoimmune conditions, for instance, you have to eat things like liver because you need the nutrients that are in those specific things.

So, I think it comes back to judgment as well, that you shouldn't judge yourself for that. You shouldn't judge others, but if you do something that doesn't feel authentic to you, if you didn't feel like eating a burger and you just do it unconsciously, then recognize that. And then you start to put that back into your behavioral pattern, and maybe the next time you recall that, and you say, "Well, it didn't feel good last time, and I want to continue feeling good, so I'm not going to eat the burger this time." What you're talking about is, I think, an incredibly important thing. There's a difference between using the ability to discern stuff and then using that ability to judge things.

And the more you can err on the side of being discerning and not attaching a judgment to a decision, and this goes for the stigma associated with vegans, and I was absolutely one of these persons who were very preachy. That's just an error on their part of not recognizing that they're attaching too much judgment for someone who hasn't maybe figured out or doing the things that they're doing. And I think what's crazy is when you approach it from that level, just to be clear, with the vegan stuff, there's amazing vegan food. Some of the best desserts I've ever had, period, have been vegan, so it's not like this shit has to be gross, but when you just approach it from, "Let's make this stuff awesome for people."

It applies to everything, not just vegan food, everything, spirituality, design, branding, strategies. When you're just approaching it, it's like, "Let's show people awesome stuff. Here's some stuff that has really been beneficial for me. Maybe you would like it." If it's given in that spirit, I've been seeing more and more things take off when people come from that place, and that, to me, is incredibly important. As you know, anytime you do anything, whether it's a creative project or just something in your life, there's going to be someone who's unhappy with that decision. I would hate being the president. Can you imagine? No matter what you do, you're maybe getting death threats.

There's a lot of vitriol that goes into things that are just decisions that we as a normal run-of-the-mill kind of person don't really have to encounter. I mean, I would not want to have to send people off to work, and that's part of the job description. But what do you think? To me, I really believe this. I truthfully believe this. Anyone who would want to be president definitely has some huge psychological problem. Truthfully, I mean that. There is no matter how altruistic and well-intentioned you are, you know how fucked up of a job it is. I think she wants to be president because she is fixated on this idea of legacy and going down in the annals of history as the first female president, as the first husband and wife president.

They're already stupidly rich. They're already stupidly powerful. The only game left to play on that certain level, that chakra level, is, you know, power, legacy, ultimate being going down in the annals. So that freaks me out about Hillary. And then Trump, I mean, we don't need a whole psychoanalysis. He's fucking crazy. He's egotistical. He's childish. He's fulfilling some, obviously some problem that has gone. And he's not engaging with reality. But like, who? Bernie Sanders even, like, I love Bernie Sanders. I voted for him in the primary here in Maryland. I hope he continues to do well. I encourage him to keep pushing people to talk about the things he's talking about.

But even then, like, there's got to be something wrong with him that he wants to be president, right? Well, you know, I would say if anything, it's masochism. But in service of wanting that power, because you have to take that good with the bad. I mean, I don't know if it's all psychological issues, but there's definitely some drive to be in the top position. You know, some people are maybe driven to be the alpha. And, I mean, it's definitely a power thing for anyone, because, I mean, imagine what you can wield. But I would also think of those other things, like what I was mentioning before. Those decisions that are so hard that you're never going to get right.

Daily basis is no right, you know? Yeah, it's a daily basis. Yeah, you're going to send someone off to die. Like, how can that be a right decision? You know, it's not pretty. And I'm grateful to not have to do that. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like, it'd be one thing if, like, they randomly chose people to be president. And you're like, damn, I got the short end of the stick, but aspiring to that specifically. And not to say like people shouldn't aspire to things like political office. I think on like a local or municipal level, you can really do some amazing things. And you zoom it out. I don't know. I just always think people are.

I think it's the craziest thing to want to be that powerful. Well, you know, once someone finds out the top thing, it's kind of like what we were talking before. You don't want to just jump to that. I mean, I admire when someone is taking a route and, you know, they've gained some experience. And then they, they're really doing it for the right reasons. Ultimately, that's it. I mean, it's having the best intention towards doing something. But you don't just jump to the end of the process. Like when people go up Everest, who've never climbed before, you just want to say that they go up to Everest, well, you know, the only way you're going to do that, if you have no experience, is if you pay for expensive shirt buzz, if you do all of this stuff.

So you're basically having other people do the work for you. Yeah. So you really have to go through the steps. I do appreciate, you know, not the long and hard trodden path necessarily, but putting in your dues because that's the only way to really build upon a foundation. Well, it's like anything in life. I mean, it's practice. It's building a foundation. It's going through trial and error. Like, that's how it works. I mean, just in my life, at least. All right, we're done. We're at the end here. We're going to have you on again. Oh, that's great. But I want to ask you the same question I asked all of my guests at the end is, could you give the listeners some practical tips or a tip that have helped you in your life?

Oh, well, there's many tips. Well, let me just take some lessons for India from India because that's the most recent thing for me. But, you know, you should experiment. You should take chances. You should go out there and, you know, take the risk because ultimately that's where you get the reward. You know, for me, I was in corporate for a long time and it actually was a very good situation. It was very comfortable. I love the people. I'm still friends with them to this day. But, you know, I wasn't as interested in working for the types of clients, for instance. Right. So, you know, before I realized that I needed to take a risk and jump to something else that was maybe a little less stable than a corporate job, I did it.

And, you know, it's what brought me to this way of thinking that, you know, I'd like to be free. I'd like to be traveling and I'd like to serve other people's interests through creative vision. You know, it's only through having broken this pattern of, oh, you know, I need to latch onto this thing to be comfortable that that works. So, I mean, that's a big takeaway. And some of that I learned through all of the mistakes I made in India. Like, how do you travel? How do you make sure that you balance your exploration with delivering on the work? And when a Wi-Fi goes down, how do you have a backup?

Right. You know, it's always like, you kind of do need these planned bees in life as well. So, even when you take the risk, it's probably a good idea to have some other thing in mind just in case that doesn't work. You know, like, go with it and be open to it. But, you know, at the same time, have a backup. I was going to say, like, I am the type of person who naturally, like, most people gravitate towards comfortable situations. But I have noticed whenever I do kind of push myself past my comfort level or take risks, I do get the things that ultimately are very gratifying and fulfilling tend to happen.

But I'm also the type of person who is constantly plan being and seeing and being and being. And it's not like it's, I don't think the thing I'm working on that main thing isn't going to work. It's just, if I'm able to come up with other ideas or things that are going to work, like, what's the harm in doing that? And should happen. So, you know, I don't think anything is particularly stable. Even the things that seem the most stable, it's only your psychological perception of it being stable. So, you know, it's great to try to establish some form of grounding or stability, but you also have to recognize that there is impermanence.

So, it may not be here tomorrow. Now, these are great awesome things. Myles, thank you so much for coming on. This has been awesome. Thanks, Noah. This has been awesome for me too. Yeah, cool. Alright. (music) (music) (music) (music) (music) Good episode. I thought I enjoyed it. Also, I'm going to let you know if some, I have a lot recorded. I prepared, just in case the baby was taking up all my time. Not taking up all my time. Taking up all of my life time. But not taking up all of my time. So, I have some cool episodes to let you know. I got Tony Bernhard. She is fucking awesome. You're going to love that episode of dealing with, like, chronic pain.

Just such a great person. I got Alan St. Pierre, the executive director of normal, the national organization for reformation of marijuana laws. That's awesome. I have Stephen Campman, Mikey Campman's dad. We talked about Carl Jung and dreams, dreams in particular. Ah, so that's a really good one too. And who else did I just recently record? I know I'm spacing on someone. There's other people too. I have recorded other people too. As always, oh, we know. As always. Here's what I meant to say. This week, Sean Dunn is officially going to be announced on MindPod Network. You may remember Sean from episode 18. He's a documentary filmmaker.

One of my favorite filmmakers, period. Just check out his films, very ape.tv. V-E-R-Y-A-P-E. Dot.tv. All his movies are free, which is nuts. He could be charging money for these things for sure. But he doesn't, because that's the type of guy he is. He has the podcast, the very ape podcast, and that's coming out. I mean, it's out on MindPod Network now, but we're going to announce him. We're also going to be announcing some other people coming up. I mentioned Yoshino, Michael Donovan. I'm in some discussions with other people to have them come onto the network. So, yeah, stay tuned for that. There will be announcements coming from MindPodNetwork.com.

If you want to see that, get those in your email inbox if that's something you're into. Try to make them useful. But thank you so much for listening. Rate and review on iTunes. When I say that, I feel like it's just white noise washing over your ears. Rate and review on iTunes. Rate and review on iTunes. But if you could, go to the computer. I think you pretty much have to do it on the computer. It's not easy to do on the phone. Go to the computer, type in, go to iTunes. It's a horrible, horrible platform. I understand it. It's my least favorite thing I do is go to iTunes. Takes forever to load.

I get a fast computer. It's crappy. You got to connect. You got to go in. You got to do that. But if you could do that, that would be awesome. Those reviews and ratings definitely help me. More people hear about the show, which is great, which I like. Maybe it's just to feed my ego, but it's not. If you like the show, I rate and review on iTunes. There are shows I like. If you're into that type of thing, I would love it if you did that. That's it. That's all I got without further ado. No, this isn't a beginning. I do. This is it. Bye-bye.