The Very Sync Podcast - Reintegration

(upbeat music)

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness.

This is synchronousness. (upbeat music)

This is synchronousness. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Welcome to the very sync podcast, which means this was a dual podcast, quad cast with my excellent friends, Gen Soudini, Sean Dunn, and Cass Greener from the very eight podcast. This is the very sync podcast. I'm just gonna drop a few little pieces of information in the beginning of this. Let's start with the wonderful people at Forsegmatic. How lovely are these people to send so many, so many lovely treats my way for me to test and say, I like this, this one's not for me. Hey, do you wanna try this? So I'm just thrilled to have the responses of this show. It really, like I said, any way that you can find kind of a mutual interest and it benefits kind of everyone.

I'm for that, I like that. So a reminder, if you wanna get a discount on anything from Forsegmatic, 15% off, you just go to Forsegmatic.com/sync, S-Y-N-C, and you get 15% off anything you get. Let me tell you this, you want an actual product recommendation from me? The Coco, the hot Coco, I like hot Coco. I'm not a huge coffee person. I'm jacked up enough as it is, but I do really enjoy, Rishi is just a very cool mushroom. Go Google it, go Wikipedia it. There really, it's a very potent kind of biodiverse amazing fungi. And you think when you're drinking hot chocolate, like I don't really want mushrooms anywhere near that, but it doesn't taste anything like mushrooms.

It tastes like hot chocolate and it's really good. It's like a classy hot chocolate. That's how I put it. So if you're looking for a product, right, go get that. That's all I've got for the ads this week. We'll have some other ads going on next week. It's weird, here's a tip I learned. If you want to get sponsorships or advertisers, and I imagine this applies to anything, just start relentlessly making fun of things, and then apparently they come calling. I'm sure there is no direct correlation, but that certainly would happen in this case. The fake ads led to real ads, which is pretty interesting, isn't it?

Again, I don't want to say too much. This is a long episode. It was four people talking about a bunch of things, and I think all these things are relevant. I was particularly interested, and I wish I could say surprise to hear, but not totally surprised to hear that Jen has been also encountering a fair amount of spiritual materialism in the world, and everyone's trying to hustle and make a buck, and put on their persona mass. There's a lot of that talk in this, which you know, space is like the synchronicity podcast is turned into talking about that. So, sorry if you don't like that, 'cause that's what it is now.

But it was very kind of refreshing to hear everyone's perspective on this. It's just a lovely group of people. I know Jen mentions it on the podcast, but the WITMA event is taking place in April 20th, oh, it's a good date, 420 is a good date. This year in LA, details to come, I'll keep you guys in the loop for that. I am no longer actively involved with the planning of WITMA, I had to take a step back, but I am absolutely in support of what her and Anna and Kara are doing, they're wonderful people. So, stay tuned for details on that, on this podcast and I'm sure on other ones. So that's it, have what we get to this podcast episode, which, "Sharn Done" slaved over for all of half an hour to come up with the name, "Reintegration"

is the theme of this podcast in July. (dramatic music)

Here we are, Noah, you're here.

I am here, you're here too.

I am here, and I'm Sean.

Yeah, and I'm Noah, and Cass and Jenna are also here.

You just got me high for the second time in 2019.

That's fucking flying, dog.

Oh yeah, so, oh, I didn't realize you haven't been smoking, even though he's been saying it and saying it. This weed is very strong, I know.

It's grown with love, though.

Yeah, I can feel that.

Yeah, man, well, welcome to my world.

Yeah, and welcome to ours, it's a little smoky.

Yeah. (laughs)

We just had an awesome conversation.

Yeah, yeah, that was really fun.

One of my favorites.

One of my favorites.

Definitely one of our favorite podcasts, right, Cass? Cass is not Mike, she's nodding. (laughs)

I say one of my favorites, I've noticed in literally every episode I've ever run more in, and someone pointed it out, they're like, you can't all, I'm like a Ken, they can all be one of my favorites, I have a lot of favorites.

Well, we had a very special guest.

Yes, we did.

Who?

Jennifer Soudini.

Oh yeah.

She's sitting right in front of me right now, also not on Mike. I thought you guys were just gonna keep talking and we were gonna quickly do this, but I don't know, this is our intro, you got me high, dog.

I know. (laughs)

I love it, well, enjoy this episode, we're not gonna give you any information about it, what's on my mind?

I like that.

It was a wonderful conversation, you'll have to take our word for it, or you can turn it off now and you'll never know.

Yeah, it turned it off now.

Yeah.

Peace and love.

Peace. (gentle music) (upbeat music)

What podcast is this God damn it? This is the Synchronicity podcast, merging with Veriape.

Yeah. (laughs)

That's what it is, it's a merger.

Yeah.

Veri Synchronicity.

Yeah. (laughs)

How's 2019 going y'all? We have Jen here, what an amazing gift, yeah.

It's pretty awesome to be able to get together like this, I really love it.

Yeah.

Epic mind melt.

Yeah. How's 2019 going, Jen?

Amazing. My 2019 started really well. I spent my new years like super mellow, before we went on air, selling you guys how I had this journey with Mushroom Tea.

Yeah, tell us about that, that was good stuff. (laughs)

So my ex, who's now, not my ex, this is really important to me as my friend Richie, he came over for new years and we took Mushroom Tea and we projected these really incredible art pieces on our, my ceiling and we're just sitting and talking life and when it started hitting me, I had this big revelation about like life coaches and this whole idea of like the man behind the curtain and taking away like the power of the person and like, you know, like this Wizard of Oz journey and getting really frustrated because what I've seen, especially over the last few years is just this infection of spiritual materialism and people that, you know, see this little truth that everybody actually just wants to feel loved, loved, accepted and safe and they see that and they say, okay, how can I capitalize on this?

And it became very frustrating. I actually had this like whole thing of like, fuck that. No, I love it. You surrounded by a lot of these people in your field. Yeah. Unfortunately. And it's been tough to navigate but something that's happened over the last two years is me finding strength to be honest and to call people on their shit and, you know, it actually really happened when I met the illustrator for a mentee. So Natalie and I, when we connected, we bonded over just the bullshit in this space and she, I found her art through the Instagram feed of this other account that's, I don't wanna say competitor but like just not somebody that I resonate with so much and they had reached out to her to do a logo for her.

Meanwhile, the owner of the site wrote a book about how you can be woke and still like wear Jimmy Choo shoes and it's like, you know, the material world.

That's how you know if you're woke.

Super mystical, yeah. (laughing) But, you know, Natalie was like broke and bartending and meanwhile, this woman's talking about how like, she's so woke and has, you know, acquired all of these things and they wanted her to do a logo and they said that they couldn't afford to pay her which Natalie probably would only charge like $2,300 at that time anyway. But they said, manifest the number you think you're worse. We can pay you an exposure and then you put out into the universe what you think you're worse and you'll manifest it. Why are you paying it? Here's the invoice, this is what it's about now.

(laughing)

Yeah, that's an interesting way of doing business.

Yeah.

Yeah, we should try that, Cass. Do you think any of our vendors would put up with that? Hey sound guy, why don't you manifest the fucking thing? (laughing) Like, get the fuck out of here. Wow, yeah, I've noticed it too. You know, I'm a little bit like kind of removed from that whole world or whatever, but I noticed it too. I just don't, I don't have a lot of faith in people that are saying have faith in me. No, I don't know. (laughing)

Yeah, there's this really great, this like a Zen colon that says teach not talking. So it's like, I feel like if you have to talk about it so much, you're not actually being about it. So it's like, just be that thing.

Yeah, Manly P. Hall says the great sermon is a good life. It's not a bunch of blah, blah, blah, blah about it. Fucking pulling in customers.

I like the idea of student versus teacher and maintaining a student's mentality through all of this because that kind of aborts the tendency to say, I'm this person, I know this, look at me, which is the prerequisite for saying, I'm branded as this person, pay attention, look at me. So if you just constantly, I'm like, do I really have something to share? And eventually it's totally okay. If you've learned something that really genuinely helps people, I respect these people who go to these meditation retreats and come back and then go on them every year for like 30-day silent retreats. At least once, like you're doing it.

Like you're not talking about it. You're maybe talking about it a shitload in between but you're doing the thing that helps you, which people always want to hear about. But yeah, the commercialization, it's interesting that everyone is kind of like, I'm both saddened that it happened so frequently but I encourage that it's kind of bubbling to the top. And I don't know who I was speaking to recently, but they said like a lot of good stuff is coming to the top but also a lot of the bullshit. Like a lot of it is coming to the top and it's visible and people are seeing what's going on. And I think that's like, that's how this stuff eventually ends or morphs into kind of a more, you know, ethical way of talking about this.

And it's okay to support a teacher if that's what you want to do because you resonate with them. But if it's like, like you were saying, if it's a click funnel, if it's some psychographic kind of profile of who connects with what and then just spending money to get their attention, it's like, is that really how you build a consciousness that is worth anything? So yeah, it's a doozy.

Well, I mean, our shadow, the shadow to all this stuff is coming up to the surface and we gotta face it. And Abdi Asadi, who we had on, who's great, he's specialty is shadow work. He says, you know, all that stuff gets corrupted by PMS, power, money, and sex. We were talking about that right before Jen got here. Not to name names, but yeah.

Yeah, I mean, because they're so attractive to the ego, a part of ourselves that says, this is, I mean, 'cause I was contrasting what we were talking about, I just watched the fire documentary, the fire festival.

Oh my God, Jen, have you seen that?

No, I've heard all about it.

Oh my lord.

It's pretty funny, it's nuts.

Yeah.

And like those type of characters very much exist in their own way in all of these different realms of like work and commerce. And I do think that more, I do think truthfully that the base level person you come across sees that and says, no, like that's not how you be. That's, you don't wanna be doing these shady things and like commercializing and trying to build like, you know, the sand castle that you think is so great but is really nothing. You don't wanna be living like that. I think the more people are like, are you seeing this? Are you seeing this? That erodes kind of the facade of the people or not.

I mean, Trump's the president. Who knows? Like that's, I don't know, it's hard to say.

Yeah, we have more information than ever but somehow it feels like the wool's still getting pulled over our eyes.

Yeah.

I spent all day yesterday on Martin Luther King day arguing with a white supremacist on Instagram. And his basic point was that racism doesn't exist that we're being duped.

Oh boy.

Yeah, I'm like white guy in his fifties who is like, unemployable and angry. Fucking sitting here saying racism doesn't exist on Martin Luther King day on black people's Twitter posts.

People don't even, I'm listening to this Frederick Douglass biography that came out last year, people don't know. People don't know, people don't know that like the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation, let alone what led to it. Like after that, they were just straight up murdering black people in the South. Like you're free but we're gonna murder you now. Like a thousand black people at a time, like a town like it was just dropped a bomb. It was a reconstruction and just the overt racism. Trump, the only competitor I've seen for worst president was Andrew Johnson who was just like an overt racist.

He's just like, no, like I'm racist and I'm the president 'cause he was president after Lincoln was shot. It was a split ticket. So you had Lincoln kind of this bastion, Frederick Douglass called the white man's president but you know, he said late to the party of picking up the phone about what slavery was about but pretty good guy. Then Andrew Johnson was a split ticket so they could win the South. It was the most racist, you went from in one night that one inflection point it changed so much in this country. And people don't know like, if you think of racist, it doesn't exist, you just didn't.

You didn't care to study at all, like an hour now. It's crazy.

Most people have a myopic viewpoint because racism doesn't exist in my reality but it exists in the greater reality. I think this is why conversations on this stuff is so important and not to fight people that think that way but to like gently play with an idea and ask questions and be like, well, why do you believe this? And then present facts because people, again, it's like this myopic viewpoint where it's like, it doesn't affect me.

Yeah, well, I mean, this guy would in particular was just trying to claim it. It does because he has black friends.

Oh God.

And all these black people are chiming and saying like, dude, you're winning racist bingo right now. So these things you're saying like this is like just because you have black friends is not negate that racism exists and there's different kinds of racism. There's the systemic racism that in a weird way we're all victims of, we live in this system that subjugates people based on their skin color. And like it's so funny, like a lot of liberals really go crazy bashing Trump like this is not the country. This is not a, yeah, it's-

It's kinda always been.

Yeah, this is what it's always been. Like this motherfucker just brought it up to the surface. Like what we're saying.

We're a country that was founded on genocide.

I know, I know. And now we got white brat screaming in the face of Native American elders.

Did you see the guy wearing the dolphins hat?

No.

This is a fucking kid wearing a Miami Dolphin hat. I can't wear that hat. I was gonna wear it to the city and I'm like, I'm not doing it.

It's a symbol for racism. No, you know that. (laughing) It is now. It's just the icing on the cake being a dolphin.

Yeah, that was pretty crazy. It's dominating the news cycle right now. This whole-

It's outrage, outrage. This is the new pattern I've seen. So it used to be just outrage. It used to be, no, it used to be amazement that something was happening with Egypt. This happened, what? And then it was outrage. Oh my God, I can't believe it. Then there was the outrage meant with the outrage. That's normal. That's like Fox News, MSNBC fighting, political parties. Now what I've noticed, this third one is, it's outrage, outrage, outrage. The third outrage being the meta outrage about how outraged people are getting. It's fucking crazy. And the news, I don't, it's so mimetic. Like, and it's the way it just communicates things so quickly, like, the Jamie Lee Curtis got mad at the people and then they said, "Oh, there was this other camera angle."

And it's like, "Nah, it still kind of looks like no matter "what happened, like these kids are being dicks." Like, it's nuts, it's.

Yeah, that third kind of outrage is like the contrarian sitting on the sidelines saying, "Oh, when's my point "to come off really smart about this whole thing?" You know?

Yeah, I don't, it's pretty fucking crazy. It's overwhelming to the point where I really do either find myself kind of distancing it from like the media standpoint and then encountering it kind of in other areas of life that I can't distance myself from or just going like full on. Like, today before I left, I put on the news for some reason. The shutdown got me. It's the longest one ever now. All right, I gotta fucking pay attention. It's like a game that goes into like triple overtime. You gotta start paying attention. And I'm like, "Fuck, why?"

Yeah.

Why does it get me?

We were just talking about this last night, but I haven't really smoked weed this year.

I just noticed the first pass of joint, I offered joint.

Yeah, it's maybe one of the first times ever that I've passed on the joint. So yeah, I'm just cooling it on the weed a little bit. It's actually something the mushroom told me at the end of last year. Like, I'm coughing my brains out all the time. And, you know, I take the mushroom and she's always so like gentle, but like does give me homework.

Do it.

And it's like, yeah, just chill, you know? So I, you know, I chilled for a few days and then a few more days and a few more days and then that led us to now. But I find myself fucking medicating my boredom with that kind of shit. News, media consumption, just like whatever. And I'm like, "God damn, I just need to "figure out a way to connect to my breath more. "Just fill my life with just more positive things. "I have that Manly P. Hall book I wanna read." And I'm like, "That's what I should be doing." Instead of like sitting here doing exactly what they want us doing. Consume and consume and consume, you know?

And that's when the vultures come in. Like the life coach type people, you know? And like, you know, I'm primed for a person like that to swoop in and fucking take advantage.

Or the virtue signaling, which is such a wild thing, which is a delicate balance because there are people out there that are using their voice for good. But then there, there was literally an instance where I saw somebody who goes by a handle that I won't say, but it was essentially about how she can help you acquire currency through using magic. And she posted a thing that was basically, this is coming from a white woman. And she was saying things to tell that you're racist, you're white, you're a white woman. And it was all just that. And I was like, "Wait a second, like, "this isn't helping inspire a really evolutionary dialogue "or help people grow.

"This is like, the link in your profile "is topped into your click funnel."

Mm. (laughs)

I think you're literally virtue signaling to get clients.

Yeah, wow, that's fucked up.

Yeah.

It is fucked up.

So she's acting like she can perform magic with you and money will happen?

Basically, yeah.

Oh, that's wrong.

How do you, we were talking about this. So how do you, if you have any conception of the razor's edge you're walking on, if you're playing with any of this stuff, magic, a cold, Buddhism, esoteric, Western, whatever it is, psychedelics, psychedelics, meditation, all of these things. Why are you fucking around on that edge?

Well, I heard Andrew Whale say the other day that placebos work. Like we should be doing more research into why placebo actually does work. So people saying, "Give me your money "and I'll manifest money for you." Actually, probably does work for some people. And it's kind of this beautiful thing of like, people are getting paid to tell you things you already know and things that you can already do for yourself, but you need to put like value into it to get value back because it's like an emotional game you're playing with yourself.

And recognize it's you who's doing it as much as the other person. If a good person like you're saying should help you recognize that you have some innate power or ability to manifest or create or everything in your life is created by youth, right? To monetize that and like get them on the hook is where I think where it gets tricky. It's fucking, I pretty of now take enough distance from personal and professional experiences where I just, I whimsically look at it at this point. I went through their outrage and rage for about two years legitimately and it's not totally gone, but it's at the point where I'm like, there's people just fucking themselves.

That's all I look at right now. It's like, I knew someone who, she worked for a lady who would send out blank CDs of prayers. It was a CD she would record and just put prayers on it, but there's nothing on it. It's a blank CD. It's just imbued with prayers.

That's a beautiful one.

And I'm telling you and like, she was like, she makes a lot of money. She makes like a shit load of money with these CDs. So that's because you're a main cast that like, you know, maybe these people believe in these magic, the air, you know, what is it? Space Jam, you know, there's no, it's just water. They didn't do some secret thing to make them good. Like, I don't know. But why play around with that if you don't know what you're doing, you know?

Well, yeah. I mean, I guess that I can see getting angry at them, but when I see it, I'm like, oh, it's a path towards people going home. And it might be at the end of them having paid this woman, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars and realized like, what the fuck? Like I need to take this power into my own hands, but it's still like everyone's just joining us on the path.

I think you would agree with me. I wouldn't give up the times that we've felt duped for anything.

Yeah.

Those have been some of the most valuable lessons in my life when a person has somehow deceived you or manipulated you in some way. It's like, whoo, thank God. I'm a stronger motherfucker because of this.

It's so much easier to just like, it's like, oh, okay, you're a shitty person. Like, now I get it. Like, oh, okay, I know how not to be in the view with you. Yeah, it's a, yeah.

I feel like that's what 2018 was all about 'cause I'm kind of shedding those energies a little bit.

I still feel like we got what used to be on.

We did, we did.

I do think this year, I do think 2020. I don't know why, just 'cause it sounds so nice, but it does, see, I do feel like that's a new moving out. Let's say this is a transitional period and we're in like the middle to late stages of it. I feel like that's the still in it, but later stages of moving into something different. Something's got to give, right? Globally, culturally. This is like, we're on the road to like, total shitsville. But this just continues unabated how we just silo off our lives and emotions and like don't, you know, get overwhelmed by media. That's nonsense. Like, it doesn't lead to good stuff and so powerful.

The printing press used to fucking blow people's minds, man. It would change the whole world. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I get stressed about like not being informed enough, but then when I get like, you kind of inundate yourself with information, it doesn't really get you anywhere in the same, at the same respect, it's like, I don't feel like I get any closer to the truth the more stuff I learn. And I also don't like to believe that like, people don't like know the truth inside themselves. But I don't know, it's one of those things that you, it's so tempting to be like, feel like we're drowning in water and all we have are tea cups to like try to get like the bullshit information out of there. And I don't know what to do about it.

I don't know what to do about it.

I think it's about finding balance, right? Like if last year was about purging, I feel like this year might be about integration. And integration isn't always easy. But having that fine balance of everything is important. 'Cause I get caught up in stuff too. We're like, I'll go down a rabbit hole and go deeper and deeper and deeper and it never ends. And then I'm just feeling crazy. And I'm like, oh my God, everything just boils down to Nazis and pedophiles and like, the world's gonna end. (laughing) Like that's why, does it always wind up here? (laughing) And like, I didn't even, the Gillette ad thing, like I didn't even know about that.

No, I still don't know, I see people talking about it.

Yeah, one of my guy friends was like, what do you think about this? I'm like, I honestly don't even know. And this is where it's hard not to engage in the fire. 'Cause I watched the commercial and my first reaction was like, oh, they're trying.

What was the Gillette thing?

The Gillette thing is an ad of, kind of you don't know it's for Gillette. It's all about like men stepping up and teaching their sons and teaching people not to bully and getting involved when people are being bullied. And like, just saying like, let's be better men. It's like pretty much the gist. I personally find it as egregious as all advertising. 'Cause I don't think advertising is the savior of like racism.

So the meta commentary is not neat, yeah.

Well, I don't know, I'm grateful for it. There's part of me that's totally grateful for it and part of me that's like, but I'm just like, why are these the people that are leading our messaging? And why do it's all our vote in money and things people who produce things? Like, that's how we vote by what we buy.

It's money, it's gross.

It's an illusion. It's like, you're not actually, by buying Gillette razors, you're not actually doing anything. By buying Nike, you're not actually doing anything. They fucking got you, they're getting you. They're using it to sell a product, you know?

That's the same thing you're talking about, which is whether it's a product, a physical thing that you don't need or don't really need, or some illusion of someone providing you something that they maybe don't have enough skill or training to do it through the best of their ability. Like, and this is like a weird tricky ground. Like, I see what you're talking about too, not to jump too far away from the capitalism, 'cause I see people making this immediate choice to monetize their knowledge or spiritual knowledge a lot, is there are young people who I've come across, very young people who like, I'm like, how are you so advanced?

They're not charting, they're not doing anything. I'm like, how the fuck do you know this much at this age? I had no idea about any of this stuff. And I thought I was like pretty relative. I'm like reading Carl Jung, like I'm not doing nothing. But there's a lot of people who have a mushroom experience from one time or an ayahuasca experience one time. And then from there, it's not like, hey, let me find out more what this is telling me about myself and my life, but it's like, I gotta open a retreat center. I gotta do this, I have to do that. I have to do this, I have to do that. And then, you know, delusionally think that that's always gonna work.

And it's like, there are people who, yeah, that's your calling, you hear it loud and clear, you're karmically in the right spot. But I see more people seeing this as like a career path. And it's like, it's not. It's like, this is not, don't make this, if you make it your career path, you're then integrating another huge element of most people's lives into something that like, try to keep it somewhat separate if you can, or speak about it authentically from your experiential level rather than saying you've acquired this, now let me teach you that. That's kind of what I keep falling back on with this stuff.

But yeah, the capitalistic needs and cultural reinforcement of that stuff is just rampant. It's everywhere. So, I don't know. I don't have any answers at this point. That's what I've been saying in 2019. I definitely, people be like, what are we doing? Like, I don't know.

Well, I think people are really hungry for real change and real change happens on like a very personal level, like personally, how you interact with people, personally, how you interact with your family, personally, how you interact with yourself. Like, it's like, we have to change it from like the inside out, you know, and.

If a Gillette ad is registering as authentic to you, your whole, I don't know if you can trust your sense of authenticity, you know, or you know, it just fucking dilutes the whole thing. It's, yeah, that's not who we should be looking to. Because what are they doing really when it comes down to? What does Gillette do? They're fucking filling the earth with more useless goddamn shit.

Plastic.

Yeah, yeah. And they're capitalizing on a moment. They're capitalizing on the Me Too movement and all of this stuff. And we cast and I know this 'cause this is what we do for a living, you know, we don't charge for anything, except when ad agencies come to us and say, make our commercial. Inevitably, I swear to fucking God, they're always racist, they're always xenophobic, they're always fighting--

Why do you think that that's why?

'Cause they're so removed from reality.

'Cause they have to be to do their job.

They just come to us with their product and they're like, can you film poor black people using our product, you know?

Yeah.

And then we go to do that and they're like, they don't look poor enough.

Oh, God.

You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, yeah, they're just like, oh man, I didn't realize that they were gonna have an Xbox. This just doesn't look good, you know? We really wanted really more poor and it's like, fuck you, you know? I got hired once to go to Romania to make this thing, to make it look like it's a big center of hacking and Norton Antivirus hires me to go to Romania to make a film about the hacking scene there. We get there, it's literally nonexistent. So I tell that to the agency and they're like, fuck you, make it anyway, we're paying you to be over here. You're over in Romania, make a film about fucking hacking and it's the most xenophobic, fucking bullshit, trumped up fucking asshole thing I've probably ever been a part of and it won all kinds of advertising awards.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you think it's because, I feel like maybe in some ways, I didn't know I just saw it so it's on my mind, but it feels like reality is kind of a fire festival.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Definitely.

And you kinda have that sense when you're growing up and you're like, I don't think these people will say, they know what's going on and going on. Now if someone is like relatively like, I have a kid and I've raised a kid, he's alive and well. Like, this is like some secret magic a parent has or an adult has, at some point people just like, oh I know this, this is how I am now. And it's like, all right, but do you? Yeah, it's a gigantic house of cards. That's why I say like, you know, the integration I love, I do think like, I don't think it's gonna be a catastrophic doomsday scenario, but I think the way we're doing stuff and people are saying it all the time, but I do think like, some shit is gonna happen at some point where enough people are like, all right, we gotta not do this because I don't know if that's older baby boomer generation kind of dying off and people are more impacted by things regularly will say something but like something shifting, right?

I mean.

I'm hopeful because I think something sexier is just coming on to the table, like I think.

You can't be less sexy, right? (laughing)

I mean, like the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, like she's sexier. What she says is sexier, how she says it is sexier, how she fucking responds to people and schools people are sexier, like we've just had someone who's like playing a media game, like in as horrible at it, but like we're gonna get a better channel. And so this is, I think Trump has like opened the gateways of new types of politicians, new ways of talking about politics, no bullshit. And now with that, it's gonna get sexier.

And the economics, that's what I think. I mean, nothing will teach you about economics quicker when you don't make money, right? And you start really trying to look and then you're like, yo, what is going on? I'm a good person, I'm doing good shit, I do the right thing, I help people, I could have charged money all these things. And you're like, what is going on that we don't have some reinforcement for that type of system? And I think that, and like look at like the billionaires of the world. Like it's crazy, I read the thing where it's like the 36 billionaires have as much money as the poorest 4.8 billion.

And it's like bronze like an unfathomable amount of people that's just 36 people have all like.

But where does the need for that level of consumption come from? What is it within the human design?

That's a good question.

That makes somebody with that level of wealth and influence and affluence to wanna hoard it and not use it to create with. It's the same thing that gets us buying their products.

Yeah.

You know, the lack of love, the wanting to feel whole, the wanting to feel complete, the wanting to feel part of something.

Yeah, I agree. I do agree with the karmic kind of like down the chain thing. Like you look at the genesis of what this was started for in the motivations and intentions, known and unknown and the founders and the people who maintain this idea and organization. And that's what you'll get all the way down. And I think it is an accurate reflection of those types of personalities. I mean, psychoanalytically, it's like messiah complex, right? You think you are, you think what Devin thought for probably a half second, which is like, I am God. And then it's like, oh, no, you just keep thinking that 'cause now you have the means to do God-like things 'cause you happen to be in this structure that is like, yeah, you're God, you got a lot of money, you're God.

It's crazy. I don't know, it seems weird, but look at someone who a lot of people like Obama, right? A lot of people like Obama, I don't think he was a horrible guy. I don't think, but to be president. It's the worst war criminal ever, but yeah. That's my point. That's my point. That's my point. That's my point. That's my whole point, right? Like, the willingness to be like, you know, to be a president and go through the political back fighting and in, you know, major decisions of killing people, like what motivates one to do that, you know? How do you maintain an ethical line? How do you preserve that over time, like?

You do what's right. You disband the military, you disband the police state, you burn the fucking prisons, and you know, and you speak to the reasons why these were a mistake to begin with. You can't disappear your problems. Those things that I just mentioned, abolishing them would make more sense for us. We could feed our people. We could clothe our people. We could shelter them. We can educate them. That's the best diplomacy there is. We have all those institutions because we're scared shitless and we think they're keeping us safe. And we just have the wrong idea about what's keeping us safe.

You know, if you want to get into that kind of thing, but yeah, I mean, Obama's a terrible person. Yeah, I mean, like, that's the thing. It's weird how the kind of peak level character person you're going to get, and people make decisions in the world. Let's be clear, like, he's a terrible person, but he signs a bill, Trump signs something happens. That's the predominant kind of personality type that dictates how the world works now. What's strange is like the cult of personality, right? The PR behind Obama has like this beautiful, articulate, eloquent man that's hope. But meanwhile, the man behind the curtain again is, you know, drone strikes and killing people.

And, you know, so much blood on this man's hands. Oh, yeah. And Trump is this disgusting hexes of a thing, you know, and just the shit that comes out of his mouth. But when you compare the two, it's like, you know, but we get so fired up from the illusion in media, you know, it's all so calculated. Oh, yeah. It's really sad. Obama's like the fire festival of presidents. It's like, it's not what you think it is. It looks cool on Instagram and everything like that. Why can't we have both? Why can't we have someone who speaks with, like, dignity and respect and isn't fucked up? And like, I think we just have to like coddle these people and say like, you're sick, like you've made so much money because you're sick and it's not your fault that you're sick.

It's a system that you've been brought up and that makes you sick. And I'm sorry, but this is a sick system. And they pay their security guard to throw you out. But system is the operative word, right? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Our system is flawed. So what really great change will happen is when somebody is courageous and just fearless enough to say the system is fucked, we need a reboot. This is just like the cups of water when we're drowning.

They already got us arguing about who's right for 2020, this big election, that's why I think 2020 is gonna be dark. Instead of anyone saying, why the fuck do we even have a president? Why is there this system?

Oh, dude, you know-- - There's being a my language.

You know, like why do we have a president? Why do we have these systems? What the fuck are we doing? We've been duped, I think. And it started a long time ago.

And we all have faith in this thing. And I'm like, who is it serve? I don't know anyone that's not on the edge of precarity.

So this was the almost exact same climate during slavery of the 18th century. And a lot of the same themes come up. And Frederick Douglass, who was very awesome, he went back and forth to a lot of different political stances and parties and for lots of different reasons. But it is, the kind of climate is right for some change that really, you know, listen, it took 20, 30, up to now years later, we're still out of the shadow of Reconstruction in the Civil War. But it does feel like akin to slavery, like the global kind of, I don't wanna call it slavery, but you know-- - It is.

It is in a lot of ways that oppresses everyone, for the most part, even the people who think they're getting away with it in their yachts and Dubai and all of these things, it's like you're as much slaves to anyone. If someone took the shit away from you, you'd be way more mad than someone who gave us a yacht for a day and then took it away. I'd be like, that was cool, it was a yacht for a day. So it's, it is kind of like a delusion that we all kind of buy into. I do think the antidote, and I know we all share this when we've spoken about it independently and together, is that when people come together, like we're doing, when you have events that aren't there for the fire festival to get everyone to pay your money, but to support things that really are trying to just engendering a spirit of like, all right, if we work together, we can make it a little bit better.

Like it doesn't have to work like this if our friend gets into a jam and they're in the whole five grand and they need it to like pay their rent or whatever it is, like we collectively pool something together from people we know are doing well at the moment, the ebbs and flows. They're like, there's shit that I think will make this like, now we're at the point where we all recognize it and like we're sick of it. I do think now like, there are people who are lucky enough, we're making a living to support a family ourselves, like to start building these new kind of bridges to whatever is coming, which has to come 'cause like this shit isn't helping anyone, it's the worst.

So.

That's, I feel like that's the difference between our generation and below and the people above us. Like the relationship we have with permission, I think we have less faith in the system that our parents who are, I assume are all baby boomers had. So we just start creating the systems and embodying the ideals that we want as opposed to waiting around for the right president or the right set of circumstances or whatever. I see a lot of people like us just starting to fucking do it make systems that are way better than the ones that we're currently beholden to because like we just spoke to Douglas Rushkoff and he wrote this amazing book called Team Human where he's basically like the systems we're beholden to right now, they're actually, they have an anti-human agenda.

Yeah, because they're not human.

Yes.

They're literally systems that are.

They're algorithms.

Yes, they're their own entities. This is what people don't realize, like when you look at like a company like Nestle who's like taking the water from up hole in springs and towing it all out, there's not one person, there may be a CEO, there may be a CTO, there may be the head of the whole thing, but there's not one person who's accountable for all of the decisions. Even if they bought Volkswagen, oh, these people knew about this, it's the system that's beholden to the profit. I learned this from Rushkoff's book, Throwing Rocks at the Google Box, but his whole kind of evolution of money from pre-bizars to bizars to like what it is now, like it is literally a system.

Like you said, it's not human because it, by definition is what's running it aren't humans, it's not. These goals we've set up and fed into basically computers say this is how this should be run given on what we see, and it's like, this isn't working for the vast majority of humanity, let alone the middle class, fuck the middle class. The people who are like starving and yemming, like not, people can't go to the movies. Yeah, it's.

And what's crazy about it is he says that like these algorithms are meant to like mind control us. Like if there's 20% of people who don't aren't predictable, they do things to make them more predictable. Like if, you know, 'cause they can then sell more ads if they say like, look, we can get someone who isn't usually gonna go on a diet to go on a diet by how we target them in advertising, then that's more valuable ad space.

It's fucked up, he's fucked up means to do it. One of the things he said in his book that we did not get to talk to him about was speaking of drone warfare. The people that operate those drones who are in some fucking office in Nevada somewhere have worse PTSD than--

Of course.

You're entertaining people, you used them so bad. They monitor them for weeks with these drones and then eventually they do the drone strike that kills them in a fucking wedding full of people. And yeah, then they just go home.

Yeah, just try to sit with their family and try to have a normal life.

What'd you do today, Jim?

I don't wanna talk about it.

They gamify it and make it feel like, you know, that movie toys with Robin Williams. I mean, it's not too far off from that.

It's dark stuff, but how do we integrate? Like you're saying. I actually am curious what your thoughts about that both psychedelically and societally are. How the fuck do we integrate?

I'm working on it. (laughing)

That's the right answer.

I think having conversations with people that are maybe in a quote unquote opposition to you and learning and being gentle with the way that you have these conversations, not fighting, but really trying to understand.

I think what we talked about on the last show, taking it offline more and really connecting to human beings in person.

Yeah.

You know, integration really is like taking a big, hard look in the mirror and seeing what it is about you that you can evolve to become a better person and to create something creative within this consumption and calculation.

And there's a great hint 'cause it's usually whatever you hate most.

So I was gonna say, and that's why no one wants to do it is 'cause it's the thing that you not wanting to be doing. It's the thing that doesn't conforms to society or your beliefs about yourself or the way things should be. And like, that's the worst no one wants to really confront that but the more you do it, the easier things get. It's like releasing knots of whatever it is, mental friction, karma, whatever you wanna call it. Like it does make it a lot easier to live and deal with good shit and bad shit too, which is a skill.

How ironic that that fucking egg photo was like the most like thing on Instagram and like from a meta perspective, like what does the egg represent? It's like you have to break out from in to destroy the system that envelopes you.

Mm, wow.

It's like a meta.

Wow. - Well, that's a stupid fucking picture. (laughing)

That's good.

No, you cued in on the other key too, which is you can't take this shit too seriously all of the time. If you do, you don't get not serious. You don't go to dumb, dumb town, but you don't get too, if you notice yourself getting caught up in lack and clarity or means and you start asking like what do I do? If you start giving it, this is why I think comedians can either be really troubled or like really like at ease in a lot of situations is 'cause like they're constantly moving their perspective around to find the funny angle of it and when you find it, it lightens the load. Things aren't as serious, you know?

Like the people who can joke about death, like those are fun people to be around, especially if they've had the experiences, right? 'Cause then it's like, wow, like, okay, that's coming from a genuine place of understanding which if you can make a joke or a fun time out of that, that's like a real, that's alchemy. That's like what we're all looking to do.

Good, these can be like shamans in that sense.

They totally are, they're the new shamans. I really think we saw it go from like rock stars, musicians to now this very weird death, I think of this influencer kind of, the fire festival I think is like, it's not the pin in the balloon, but like people are so aware of what's going on and like even the younger kids are gonna wake up to it and be like, all right, I'm done with this kind of level of materialism, but I think the comedians, like it's this ongoing renaissance of like, just people bringing the absurdity of our perspective, you know, our reality to light. Like that, that needs to be done as much as possible.

And it's a huge antidote for dark states of mind. Like you get someone to press laughing, at least for that little bit, they're out of it for a little bit. So, yeah.

I think it's a conversation. Sorry. - No, go ahead.

I think people crave connection with somebody that thinks the way they do. So comedy sparks something, but conversation also sparks something. Just being able to hear something and relate to it and be like, "Holy shit, I'm not alone."

Yeah.

You know, I'm not alone in this. That's why Alan Watts was so brilliant in what he did 'cause he was like the shaman comedian and very Zen and, you know, laughing at the cosmic joke of how crazy it all is.

And he was in awe.

It feels like that's why we're skewing comedians right now, kind of collectively, you know? It's like, it kind of feels like similarly, like this is the last gasp of white male supremacy. This is the last gasp of like outrage culture. It's the last gasp. Like we're seeing how far we can go, how many, how ridiculous and outrageous we can go with how we get people to not, for like Kevin Hart to not be on the Oscars and that sort of thing, you know?

It's not pretty crazy. I mean, I have tweets from, which I don't delete. My first tweet is, "Fuck you, Chris Berman." Who was the ESPN commentator? 'Cause he was a dick, he was a Bill's fan. And I have tweets where I said like, I bet Chris Berman punches hookers for fun. Like just things that like, if someone was looking at like, I want to hire this person or is this person a good, I was like a 20-something year old idiot who was probably drunk, like you can't, and granted like you're an idiot, but to not allow someone to like address this and if you really think Kevin Hart is like, has an agenda to spread anti-gay propaganda, like that's another question to be had, but you can't just ban people for shit that they do that you is presented in social media.

Well, here's an interesting thing. I spoke about this in my comedian friend. He's younger and he's in the UK, the Louis C. K thing. I did a little dance with that one. I saw it on social media, didn't hear it, didn't listen to it. I'm like, this is the most fucked up thing ever. I'm like, this guy's a piece of shit. He did this thing where he's getting naked in front of ladies and now he's less than a year later coming back and saying, this shit about Parkland survivors. I'm like, what a piece of shit.

Outrage.

Outrage. Notice that tweeted about it, subsequently went back and deleted them. I spoke to my comedian friend because I spoke to my comedian friend and I was like, what's your take? He's like, listen, the only way comedians develop material. And there's a question. He's like, it lacks empathy, those things and help, but he's like, the way comedians figure out what works with other people, who especially are accustomed to pushing the boundary, never expect that to be out to the world. It's meant for the people there. People couldn't record it and post it on the internet. He's like, this is how people work through it.

And he's like, you know, I listened to it and I still haven't listened to it. And he's like, it wasn't as bad as it was in the printed form. And that fucking outrage manipulation got me and I didn't even, I didn't know what was going on. I still haven't heard it.

We listened to it.

Yeah, I mean, he's a creep, but like his comedian, he's like, he's taken on and put the black hat on fully.

That's what it sounds like when we listen to that, like I don't think Cass and I were ever the biggest Louis C.K. fans. He's not somebody when I would watch his specials, I would be laughing.

'Cause he's more nihilistic.

Yeah, I'm like, this guy's giving like a, yeah, a nihilistic rant. This isn't to me like, laugh out loud funny. Whereas like, Norm McDonald, I can't stop.

I mean, Norm is amazing.

He's just so good.

Everywhere.

But we listened to that and yeah, there are parts that just like really just like make you just like cringe and really more for me was just hearing the audience's reaction.

Which is what?

There's a white bro just sitting right next to the mic that was bootlegging it. And he's like, right on man. Like just going over the top with his reactions, like just a little too much. And that's the part that kind of creeped me out more. It's like, I understand Louis C.K's a creep. I watched his show, there were some episodes where I'm like, what the fuck, this guy wrote this and filmed it and put this out like this exists.

There was the penis thing in this, his early show on HBO where it's all of a sudden, he did, oh my God, I just realized that. He did what he's accused of doing. He was got naked. If we're the cameras in, it's like a weird setup show. It's not like produced like Louis. It's like, I think I'm gonna call it Louis or something weird to me like that, but.

It's like a three-camera comedy regular.

Oh, it was so weird.

Yeah.

Nah, I just realized that's what he was dealing with.

Probably all of our favorite comedians are fucking weirdos. Probably all of our favorite musicians are weirdos.

Who is not a weirdo?

Yeah.

That's riddle me that, please.

There's a line of weirdo though, right?

Yeah, jerking off on the front of people. I mean.

I don't even know.

Unannounced.

No, didn't he ask people? Wasn't his thing? That's why Sarah Silverman stood up for him and said, like, listen, like cut the shit. Like apparently he was asking people. It was okay to do that.

He jerked off in front of Sarah Silverman.

She said, okay.

She said, okay. She said, I watched it a couple times and a few times I was like, no, I'm good. Like, I don't need that. That's cool.

I don't think he was cornering people. I think that where he stepped over the line was using his power to-

Not recognizing that people can't say no.

Well, it was not that they, I think they might've said no. I think what happened is they said no and then they went around bashing him and being like, Louis, a creep. And then he ruined their career.

Yeah.

He used his power to silence them and ruin their careers.

Yeah, so it's like he was a, it's power that corrupted, but he's been the same guy.

I don't know.

I don't know he was asking people.

Yeah.

That does change it for me.

No, he never, I'm pretty sure Louis EK has never been accused of just jerking off in front of someone.

Oh, I thought he would get him in the office and just get naked.

No, he would ask. But then the worst thing is that if somebody was like, oh, what a creep.

He would retaliate.

Yeah.

Well, you gotta just get out in front of it and be like, I do this.

See, but look, all this context really helps. Your mind is changing right now.

No, my main is changed 'cause I thought he was just like a creepy guy. I mean, it's still pretty creepy.

Yeah.

Like it's a weird request. Let's be clear, but it's way less weird if you're doing it with, if you're not asking people to do it. That's much weirder. If you're just doing it, that's like a whole other level of demented to me. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I mean, I think what I get disturbed by is society's reaction where it's like, we not only want them banned from, we wanna ruin their fucking life.

People love it.

Like, it's just this gacha culture, you know? And it's really horrendous. And I'm not sure where that comes from. Probably people's lack of feeling empowered.

Shadow, they're not dealing with their shadow stuff. That's what it really does, boiled. All of the things we're talking about, I do think that's like the biggest theme. And it will probably remain so because the shadow is everything we can't consciously perceive, too. We wouldn't be doing it if we had an age choice of like more suffering or less and you push a button. We do those things, but it's nebulous. It's not always around or conscious. You have to actively focus on it and work on inner issues and relationships and problems. And it's like, this fucking hard work. That's certainly not reinforced by the culture, but.

We made such a good point though about how it's like the God and culture where it's like it does feel like in a way we're living in these biblical times, right? Where people are being stoned to death for their transgressions instead of wondering where he went wrong, 'cause deep down, at one point that was a little boy who grew into a man who developed this habit and this way of understanding women and whatever and acting it on this way. But it said, let's kill him. Let's stoned him to death. But then circling back to what we were talking about before as well, this idea that like it's so akin to the Messiah's coming.

We're waiting for him to come save us. We're gonna study this book and say the Hail Marys and do whatever and follow these archaic rules that may not even be the original rules in this book. And then meanwhile, not be present in life 'cause we need that to save us instead of saving ourselves.

That's why those teachers who we're railing against are so prominent 'cause they can be those people. They'll be your golden calf, they'll tell ya, hey.

But again, it's a flawed system. Why do we wanna kill that person?

Well, I mean, it has to do with what I was saying about our military and our prison system. When you disappear your problems, you're not facing the shadow. Oh, drug problem, drug users are the problem, cool. We'll disappear them from communities. Instead of, communities have to say, wait a second, is toxic capitalism making people insane and needing to self-medicate and therefore commit these crimes? Are too many people living on the edge of precarity where they have to do these things that are crimes? That, you know, we create the criminalized behavior and then we criminalize everyone, disappear these problems and we don't grow.

We don't integrate, we don't integrate.

Well, those things you're talking about, those institutions, those fucked up systems, can only grow in the dark, right? That's the key. You can shed any light on them whatsoever. They begin to crumble or die really quickly because they're just like, people know instinctively, like, that's not right. It's just such a, it is a wizard of Oz thing. There's so many different wizards of Oz's, all of these layers through society that I think that's why psychedelics have had their moment and continue to have because it really forces you to deal with the moment. There's no, you may have context and all this stuff built in but like, you're dealing with that experience pretty presently, which can be good if you wanna do the work.

I'm curious, I have a question for you guys too though. I just remind myself of it. The Toad, tell me more about the Toad.

Are you kidding me?

What's good with the Toad?

There's nothing, what's good? It's the most powerful fucking thing that there is. I can't even speak to the experience.

My stepdad has done it multiple times. More times he came back with like a bloodshot eye, like eye vessels, but she was just like ah.

From screaming or something.

That's my mom said, yeah.

I was supposed to go with him when I chickened out.

Well, my mom did too, my mom did too.

I almost chick, have you ever done it?

No, we talked about it the last time. I still want you, but.

Yeah, and there's opportunities. We could talk about that, but it's, I mean, I almost chickened out. It was to, it's talk about having to face your shadow.

Wow.

Like, and not even in a way that you can even comprehend. It's just like, yeah, it just like, puts a whole new operating system in and Cass and I spent the months after Toad rebuilding our life.

I saw that.

You know, doing some really, really deep work. I don't think Cass had like the karmic predicaments that I had gotten myself into in my 37 years. So I was doing a lot of apologizing to people, a lot of saying, oh that, this behavior isn't working for me, that one is, this kind of thing. It just really, really, really forces you to take a deep hard look at who you've become. And the messages from it aren't even that direct. They're so, it's like me trying to do calculus. I don't even, like what is this? What is this language? This makes sense to someone, something, but it did not, it makes sense to me.

Well, it was the most beautiful experience I've ever had. The most like instant oneness, instant samadhi, it was heartbreaking in that way of how gorgeous and connected I could feel. And having, being at peace almost like with being here or not being here, being at peace with like the road that you're on. And I don't know, I think it's a really big gift. We just heard Mike Tyson say he did a, some, some talk.

My jaw trot.

He was on Joe Rogan and I was like, oh, there's only an hour and a half. I'll listen to this, I'll listen to these two talk, fucking 10 minutes in, Mike Tyson. Like Joe Rogan's like, so you're into the weed business now or whatever. You know, how's weed for you? And Mike's like, I've been smoking weed since I'm eight years old. What changed my life was this toad. And I was like, what? Mike Tyson smoked toad. And he had only smoked it two months previous to this podcast. So it's still in you.

Oh, of course.

It's very much still in you.

He's fucking kidding me.

He said if I would have discovered this when I was a fighter, I wouldn't have been fighting anymore.

Of course.

He said, I would have just told everyone that just love each other.

Yeah. (laughing)

Mike Tyson's very, very, very, very interesting human being and he lived in the DC area 'cause one of his mistresses was there and he was nuts. I mean, he was like an animal when he fought and he was insanely amazing but so clearly fucked up and then his father figured out but he's always had kind of this real introspective quality and he's got the funny voice so people don't take him seriously, but.

But the guy also loves pigeons.

I know.

Yeah, he's cool.

He loves--

He's vegan.

Wow, he's vegan.

Yeah, just find that out today.

I don't find that surprising.

Yeah. I mean, that was one of the things like, I think Cass and I to speak to the toad, to speak to the mushroom to definitely the acid 'cause we've been taking a lot of mother fucking acid. We're addicted to integration. (laughing) The first time we ever took mushrooms here that was like five years ago, I'm like rolling around in the bathroom for like, fuck, I gotta be a vegetarian?

Yeah.

What is this message? I make fun of vegetarians. I poke fun at them. I fucking belittle that whole thing. Like, what the fuck? And now I have to do that and integrating that thing. That's a huge lifestyle change. Doing that and seeing how much it benefited me, I'm like, ooh, what else?

I got to add to it.

Let's go. Come on, bring it on. Oh, forgive people that I'm holding out of my heart. (laughing) Wow, that's good. That's good quality work and just felt so freeing to even write those emails, let alone have them be received and responded to.

That's awesome.

And of course, the work is never done. It's never done. But that's what the toad really propelled us, or me very, very particular is like it propelled me into just wanting to be a better motherfucker in this world and stop the bullshit. Whatever it may be, just kind of fucking stop the bullshit. And it charged us up. I feel like we've made more friends since then. And like, 'cause Cas and I could get super isolated, we're like, we're all each other fucking really need. Why would we be like socializing all the time? We're going out or, you know. So now our hearts are way open and I feel like 2019 for me is very much all about deepening my connections with people.

Like we have all these connections. Our network is vast and across the world, luckily because of this podcast and these films we put out and we have people from all over the world and I've always kept everyone arms distance away, everyone. And now I'm like, fuck it, yeah, sure. All right, let's see if this makes me uncomfortable. I'm just gonna keep breathing. (laughing)

It's a good philosophy to have about everything.

That's all you can do, you know. So yeah, I definitely think, man, Noah, you gotta smoke the toad.

Everyone, listen, you know what happens to me. This is be clear. On the type of person who genuinely tends to need the smack in the face to be either propelled to do these things, like I know when it is, a lot of people around me do toad, a lot of people around me do ayahuasca and DMT. I know the time and place will be there for it. I know that it's coming. My tendency is what I've noticed in life after certain LSD and mushroom experiences, I have a tendency to get very floaty. Like I can get really connected with archetypal landscapes, mythologies, magical, like feeling and like feeling. You know, like when you're, you guys do enough LSD and when you're in the magical, so you're like, this is magical, I didn't even take anything.

What is this? Like, wow, this is how shit works. That is a very alluring place for me. So I find at least unconsciously what I've been doing and this is kind of my integration, is I ground myself a lot and then do these kind of moments now where I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go off, see what I'm gonna experience and what it's really like out here. Get familiar with that, pull it back and figure out how to integrate it in. And I was talking about this 'cause I was talking with this guy who's a psychiatrist. It's like a 67 year old guy who's been a psychiatrist a long time and he was, he's really into synchronicities.

He's got a show connecting with coincidence. And he's like, listen, there are people who demonstrate psychosis, manic and schizophrenia. And he's like, but the weird thing is, is like, shit does happen to them. It's not like some objective, like, or subjective delusion necessarily. I had someone who listened to an episode I did about that tell me that someone they know, this shit happens to them and they get dragged in and start seeing these things happen. And it's like, listen, they're coexisting. Those two worlds, that practical mundane, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And the kind of like, anything is possible, you create your entire reality.

To me, the fun is kind of like walking the line and not taking either too seriously toad. I know from what I've seen from everyone else would definitely push me to some real, like, oh shit, I gotta focus on the reality of the situation. No, like the, but yeah, I'm very interested. It's having a cultural moment too. It's like getting to the forefront, right? If Mike Tyson is talking about it and Joe Rogan is like, oh yeah, five MEODMT. Yeah, I've done it as well.

I didn't catch that distinction. People just told me he was talking about DMT, which I'm like, that's not surprising. The fact that it's five MEODMT.

He said he's done the other kind too. And one DMT, you know. - Of course, yeah, of course. But the total, this shit's like 100 times as powerful.

I'm curious to work with the synthetic version of it because I personally feel pretty uncomfortable continuing to dive back into the toad given that I've had the experience and that I don't know how sustainable it is for everyone to smoke toad that comes from this particular Sonoran Desert.

It's not sustainable right now, but they're figuring out ways that they can't make it sustainable.

The synthetic version of it. I've heard it's a very, it replicates from what I've read and the people who've spoken about it. It seems like synthetic does the same thing. It's like whatever this does, it just hits those parts of the brain and it's like, oh, you're a unity. Like, it's-- - Yeah, exactly.

I'm not opposed to it.

We do have another toad thing on the schedule. It's like our main psychedelic hurdle to jump over in the future, but yeah, we do--

We're gonna do a little less and look at each other. No, no, really, we're gonna do a little less toad and look at each other in the eye.

Focus in the eye.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're gonna pull the space together.

Are you here? Are you there?

Everywhere.

It depends on the dose.

The dose we took last time, you were not here.

No, no, no way. You're like barely tethered by the music.

What music are they playing?

Shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh.

Oh man, I'm gone.

Oh yeah, you need that music.

Of course, it's your nature, right?

When we smoke regular DMT here, we don't play anything.

Yeah, you say.

Because it's just like, it's too much in time, you know? Like, you're in another dimension, you don't wanna hear anything. Like, you know, if I hear a siren go by outside, I'm like, oh yeah, that world. I gotta get back there.

You know, so it's crazy. Really LSD is the main thing we've been doing, though. Even cannabis, like, putting that down for a second. This is what I wanted, you guys are the perfect people to ask this to. The dreams. I hadn't had dreams in seven years.

I told you.

Or, you know, this was actually even more bizarre than not having dreams. All my dreams took place at my cousin's house with a very, very small cast of characters. Every night, same place, same basic group of people. I was smoking weed for seven years straight. I give it up now for three weeks, and I'm hanging out with Jon and Yoko. I'm fucking hanging out all over the world, doing all kinds of things. Last night in my dream, I was flying. And not only that, they're sticking with me. Like, they're really sticking with me. And I'm like, what the fuck are dreams? Like, do we need them?

I'm curious to hear your take on this.

Well, for me, they're like a second reality.

Yeah.

You know, a big kind of download I had over the past few months was that I needed to phase out alcohol from my life. Not that I was drinking a lot, but like literally, I would drink like once a month of that and then have the most violent, terrible hangover. So it's been like a month since I've had any alcohol. And I'm pretty much, I think I'm done with it. And I had crazy dreams before that. Now, it's like I'm talking to you.

Yeah.

It's just like that.

It's as real as here to me now.

It's absolutely as real as here. And when we start to come into relationship with that, part of our reality, we can manipulate it and learn from it and it becomes this playground. It's literally like inception. So I mean, the fact that you're having that, you have to start to play and see how deeper you can go with it 'cause it's literally like this movie you're creating in your mind. And you can learn from, yeah, like it's wild. I mean, the psychic synchronicities I've been having just the last few weeks have just been so bizarre where I dream it and then immediately I wake up and that's what I see on my phone.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's just, yeah.

Well, there's an interface there too. I know exactly where you talk. So I had two periods over the past three months where I didn't smoke for two to three weeks each time, which is crazy. I was like 15 years straight, like straight. Like the flu was my last gap. And you know, it's not like anything. It's not really there. The dreams come back immediately, which she's saying is totally true. They are, it's one of the best and most reliable modalities for getting insights into the unconscious, the more magical or type of realms, whatever you wanna call them, that really run most of our lives. Like what we consider, at least in like a Jungian conception is a little like, this is us.

This is everything that's conscious that we could be aware of. This is what we're aware of. This is everything below us. It's like a circle. So it's like a teeny little fraction of above and below. So your dreams are a really reliable gateway 'cause you're not using your conscious mind to interact with these things. That's why people at the lucid states 'cause you kind of are bringing that in. My theory on this related to weed is that I think weed for people who smoke regularly and find it works with them in their lives isn't necessarily a detrimental thing. Even if it is, it smooshes that liminal boundary of the dream world and the real world, the reality world without smoking weed into each other.

So you don't have the same functions that you would be doing and remembering them when you're sleeping 'cause it's like you're already shifting your reality in a way that's kind of serving that function. 'Cause sometimes you'll dream if you smoke weed. It's not never but reliably. If you cut it out, man, it's nuts.

It's too much. Like I'm reading subreddits of people, like I quit weed and I have to go back on it 'cause I can't handle it and you know, now.

Right down, right down.

I love it. That's the first thing we do. We wake up and we're like, "Where were you last night?"

Oh, it's so smart.

"Here's what I did, here's what I can bring back." And then I'm dwelling on it all day like as if I saw a great movie or something.

Of course, it is.

It just hasn't been the case for so long. And the other thing is like, I thought I wasn't gonna be able to sleep quitting weed.

Oh, it's fine. It's fine.

I thought there was gonna be all this. Like I was scared.

No.

And then, you know, I just kind of stopped smoking and just kept not smoking and then I was like, "I'm fine." And then the other day I smoked for the first time and it was DMT. I was like, "Weed is fucking acid." And DMT, this is so powerful. I can't believe I was doing this all the time.

I know, too. Listen, 'cause I did it twice. I did this full stop, start, ease back into it. 'Cause you start smoking. You're like, "I was taking like three joints a day." This was like a joint of day now 'cause I finally have like a more manageable relationship. You can very much, weed is a seductress. Let's be very, very clear. There is something, especially for how it allows us or kind of shapes our realities for us on our screens. It is very, it's like an antidote to I think our, the way culture is. So I think that's a useful relationship to have, but I mean, there is very little kind of reason for pause when you're doing it, I think regularly and regularly.

I find for me, I just, it's such a big part of my life and now that New York is going legal, like I'm probably just gonna make it a bigger part, not with more smoking, but more integrated into different facets of my life. I've been doing a shitload of edibles. That's what I primarily do now. I had my friend who's like in the 70s, who's had risk problems his whole life. His daughter was just going through a big surgery and he's like, "Your chocolate you gave me like saved my life "the past three months, like mentally and physically." And I'm like, "That's the real power of this stuff." And I think, you know, there's, I just love it as kind of a spirit, plant spirit.

And it's like, it's just like my jam. Whether I'm smoking a lot of it or not, it's a-

Well, I feel high even, like that's the whole thing. That's really why I haven't been smoking a lot of it. I still feel high. I don't know what's going on.

That's the tone.

Yeah, yeah.

Something is just keeping me high. But you know, the thing that I heard someone, I think Kathleen Harrison said this once, talking about like how we, the spirit of cannabis likes taking human form. It, like she loves coming into a body that is capable, that can do things, that can make things, that can have sex, that's a fucking hear music. You know, so like, I feel like I'm honoring it. Like cannabis, I will still say, I haven't really touched it that much this year. It's my best friend. It is my best friend.

Yeah, it's an amazing thing. And I think the same goes for, I don't mushrooms, for instance, you know, it's always with me and it likes taking form with me. But when it does, it's kind of like a stern parent, you know. It's like, here's what you gotta do. And that's why I avoided it for so long. I hadn't taken that many mushrooms for three years. And then right after Christmas, probably around the same time you were doing it.

That's the mushroom time.

We revisited it, yeah.

Yeah, it is. It's a good time for mushrooms. It's like there's nothing going on in that weird week between Christmas and New Years.

I've tripped, I don't know, I don't have the sheet, but I'm sure I've tripped many. I have such a perfect week for it, yeah.

Yeah, it's, you know, I was, it still, it made me so nervous taking 'em that day even. And there were so many just really, really great lessons that came from it. One of it being like, pump the brakes on weed. We're starting a weed business. We're starting a-- - Smart.

We started this thing called Flower. And it's a cannabis creative agency. And we're gonna be doing events and marketing and content and all kinds of stuff. You already hooked us up with a client, which was amazing, yeah.

Right time and place. Trust me when I say this, that people think they know what's coming to New York in the next year or two or three. With the can of businesses, they don't understand.

Yeah.

Anyone who lives in the city and is used delivery service or to finally found a good dealer or the person, like you don't understand what's going on. The black market, by the way, will be totally fine.

Oh yeah.

Who thinks that's going to be, they're trying to access out what taxes work so much, but the really cool shit you will start, you're gonna see the LA mentality that weed provides people, but with like a New York Eastern hustle. And these businesses are gonna go nuts. And they're not all gonna be like shitty. They're not gonna be conglomerates 'cause this weed will keep you fucking honest if you smoke it a lot. 'Cause the people you, trust me, that shit will keep you honest in terms of like how you're gonna be building a business on it. 'Cause I know people make a lot of money in the weed business and take some ethical missteps here and there and it checks them almost every single time.

Especially edibles, I mean.

Oh no, that's what that's--

When you gave me a cake that you made or something.

Banana bread, the banana bread.

And I took it, I was like, how's sitting my friend? (laughs)

My friend.

And I was like, ah, take a little bed, I don't feel anything, then I took a little bit more and I'm like, I don't know, I don't have anything to do tomorrow, fine, stay up. I didn't feel anything, I woke up and like, do you guys know like this SpongeBob meme where he's just like all shrunken manimes? And I was like, what have I done? They're just having this whole crisis of consciousness. So I don't-- - Oh yeah, you don't know when it's gonna wear off, unlike mushrooms or acid or any of this other, even smoking, with an edible, you're like, this could be the next fucking 25 hours.

Did it take a life now? - I had that, I had that 20, it was like, not 20, but it was probably like a solid 14 hours where I took it in hemp milk. So I made, my base was a shake, it was like a shake I was making, hemp milk and coconut oil that I made, that's the like, highly concentrated. And I was like, hmm, I wonder how strong this is, I hadn't did it. Drank it, it was like, I was pretty gross. 15 minutes later, my eyes get droopy, like real droopy, 15 minutes. - Oh, that's real droopy.

When it's happening that quick. - 15 minutes?

And I'm like, shit, I'm like, it's like four, something like that, like Eli's still awake, I'm like, no, I start getting the giggles, like I can't contain anything, my eyes are just like, creamsin, it's insane.

Yeah.

I tried to get this, that's hard, it was super nipples. - Yeah, they didn't do it.

I tried to go to sleep, I ended up getting into this weird half sleep.

I thought that was a bit of a jaw, no, no, no, no.

It was like that liminal, it was like right before you fall asleep space, but I couldn't go.

I just started for two hours, I have gone, gone, gone.

Never happened, I couldn't walk.

They're in all lives. - I literally, like, started going from how, like, fucked up I was like, yeah, I had never been.

I'd only go over here.

No, I was like, this is my face, this is my face, this is my face, this is my face, this is my face.

Is it a crazy?

I'm like, we're gonna make this up.

This is really, this is really crazy.

This is really crazy, this is really crazy.

It's face, this is really crazy, they don't know.

Alcohol's legal, look at what that turned people into.

It's really crazy, it's really crazy.

Alcohol started coming at me, like, really made a switch thanks to that in my life.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

The two don't, man, that's not the thing.

That's not the thing.

That's not the only thing that cannabis doesn't really make sense.

That's not the thing.

That's not the thing.

When it all arrived.

Oh, and man.

It's really the only thing, you know, that I can think of that, like, cannabis thing over with us, but, yeah, alcohol definitely served the purpose and has served the purpose in my life, and I do not want to just keep an eye on any drug, really, whatever anyone's gotta do to get through, but, look at it, it's the destruction.

It's usually bad. I had two scotches out of dinner the other night after I had an animal before the dinner.

Ooh.

It was really awesome.

Yeah, cool.

I enjoyed it, like, I couldn't, like, alcohol less. I don't hate it, but I just, like, I'm never, like, I want a beer. I've never had that thought in my life, like, I would enjoy a beer right now. I'm like, I'll drink this, I guess. Like, that's what people are doing, but--

That's what I love you, man. The first time I met you, I was like, I saw how many, how much weed stuff you had around. And I was like, oh, this is my guy. Like, this is like, yeah, this isn't--

There's not bottles of liquor, but I will say my sister, who is, that's her job, is really knowing about spirits and wine and alcohol. If the narrative and the cultural history is embedded into this thing that's been around for millennia, it can get very cool. And they serve purposes, but it's like any mindless use of a toxin, whether it's weed or alcohol, I think alcohol is pretty bad. Like, it'll fuck you up. 'Cause most of the shit you're consuming is like, no, it's making their own alcohol.

What's like, intention is everything, right? I think of what my big epiphany kind of came through where the last time I drank heavily, my cousin was in town from Vegas, and he works in the firearms industry. And I call him like, bro Rogan. 'Cause he's like, this is kind of like UFC, Joe Rogan type of guy, but like, he's very affable, like a very ungun gun guy. But we're out one night, and he brought along this woman who was a former member of the Pussycat Dolls, who was in town because she was auditioning for Fox News, and she's like Uber Republican, like loves POTUS, this, that, and the other thing.

And we're at dinner having sake, and I'm like, I can't believe I'm fucking sitting, having to have these conversations and like, whatever. And then she starts talking about abortion, and I'm like, get me another bottle of sake just for me. And then by the end of the night, I've luckily had enough brain power to be like, I need to get out of here. So I just took an Uber, went home, but then I woke up, I'm in my clothes, and I'm puking all the next day. And I'm like, I did this because I was in a situation that made me feel really anxious and uncomfortable. What if I was in that situation completely sober?

How could I have navigated that better and maybe helped shift someone? And like, even having drank, it's very interesting to have conversation with somebody that's so nuts. You know, that's like, I've had two abortions, but I'm anti-abortion, it's murder. I'm like, are you really saying this? You really saying this?

How do you do that dance?

Yeah, so you know, that was my like, okay, I wanna be able to meet everything with a clear mind and not have to numb myself out from things that make me feel uncomfortable.

That's a huge, again, not disappearing our problems by like hiding behind something that's gonna make it all better, that would drive me to drink too. But then there's this really interesting thing where you're like, wait a second, what if I just show up with my breath and just hang with this? Like, I could probably learn a lot whether it's about how anxious this makes me or how to converse better with people who are completely fucking delusional. You know, I noticed I was doing that with weed. Like the times I'd smoked the most would be when like two, three people are swinging through or whatever.

And it's like a dynamic that is out of control or whatever. I'm just like smoking the whole time, you know, going crazy. And I'm like, what am I protecting myself from exactly? And that's where it started to, I started to have like that little voice inside me and be like, try it, try not to do it. And see, and just see, you know, see what boredom is, sit with it, see what being anxious in a social situation is, sit with it. And it's not like it makes those things go away, but you have a better understanding of like your full range of emotions, I think.

Something does make that go away. I only know this because it happened to me in college. I was way more socially anxious, although I wouldn't say like a high level, but like way more socially anxious back then than after I started doing a lot of LSD in mushrooms. I don't, I can get uncomfortable at times, but I'm rarely socially anxious. Even amongst people, I don't know. Like I'm thinking of the scenario with like the Fox News lady. Like I know exactly what I'd be doing. I'd probably be drinking. I don't think to excess 'cause I just, I literally really, I hate hangovers of the worst. But I would probably just like, like joyfully ask her questions that were just like insane to me.

Like how do you, like, you know, like--

There was a lot of that, a lot of asking questions, but then deep down I'm just like,

Yeah, I don't--

Dying on the inside.

Yeah, I think like, so there is something, I'm only saying for my own personal case, like I used to have like pretty high social anxiety and situations, but something I think about, I don't know, just being in the moment, I guess for the most thing, knowing that if you're just being honest and truthful and authentic, like what's the worst that can happen? Like, you know, and if you haven't been, you have to catch yourself and say, oh, I was being a dick or I was doing this, but there is something that reduces that. I just don't know what it is. I just know in my own life and it wasn't drugs. Don't think it's weed, don't think it's weed.

I've noticed I've smoked a lot of weed and that shit will pop up, so it's not that, but--

It's gotta be your breath though.

That's what I was gonna say.

I love that, because what our lungs produce, TMT, right? So we're actually deeply connected to our breath and breathing through that. I think it's a really interesting exercise in the navigating the world. There's this really great book called The Illustrated Guide to Becoming One with the Universe. It's amazing, the artist is Yumi Sakugawa, and she has this one page where it's like, invite your demons over for a cup of tea.

Oh, wow. - And with them. And it's so cute the way it's illustrated and it's very like Buddhist.

It's a bad Buddhist, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's true, like let's sit and talk. Why, you know? I think it's a really, it's psychedelic to be looking at things with clarity.

Oh, yeah, well, I want, before we wrap this up, I want, is your Oracle deck out yet?

Not yet. - Okay.

Coming out May 14th, 2019.

Okay, I'm so excited. - Me too.

Yeah, I follow, who's the artist who--

Natalie Miller.

Yeah, I follow her on Instagram, and every day, I'm like, damn. - She's the best.

Yeah, you're very lucky to have connected with her, and she's very lucky to have connected with you.

Yeah, I feel very blessed that not only to have like the best creative collaborator, but like a best friend, that just the same vibe as this, like, she's just one of our people.

Awesome. - Wonderful.

We gotta all chill sometime.

Yeah. - What else you got going on, anything you wanna promote or talk about?

So, we actually just locked down our date for the next WITMA, while being in the modern age. It's gonna be in LA on 4/20.

Oh, nice, cool. I see I'm there in spirit. - I see I'm there in spirit.

Yeah, I'm clearly there, influencing in spirit.

That's awesome, nice.

So, we'll have more announcements pertaining to that on WITMALive.com, but it'll be 4/20 in LA.

That's so cool. - That's cool.

Yeah, maybe we'll try to be out there on the same time. We're trying to bring our radios, show, vibe, sesh, church of chill to the live.

Oh, that would be so cool. - And I think it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be weed events.

That's what I'm saying. - Yeah.

And you'll be like-- - We're coming up with us.

Yeah, we'll definitely. - Yeah.

Maybe we'll have the 4/19 event or something like that. But yeah, I was actually just talking to a friend today who we've had on the podcast, Corinne Luporfito. And she runs this thing called Pussy Powerhouse. And she just goes around the country just fucking throwing incredible parties. And she was like, "I love Church of Chill." I was like, "I wanna make it a real life thing." And she's like, "Let's do it." So-- - Oh my God.

Yeah, yeah. - That is really cool.

Yeah, just if I've been out. What about you, Noah?

Yeah, I-- - You wanna promote this new child you're having?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I got a kid coming, coming, late June. Hit me with boy names. We're in a weird place where we're literally accepting everything, so send them in.

The branding of this child has begun.

Yeah, so we're branding him in vote on social media. Yeah, that's all I got coming.

Okay, cool. Cass, come on, what do you got?

What do I got? (laughing)

Cass has been very focused on growing our cannabis creative agency, Flower.

Yeah, I feel really good about a lot of stuff. I feel like 2019's gonna be super bright, so--

Any help, you guys, seriously. I am talking to a lot of peeps about, from the investment side, which when people say that, I'm usually like, what the fuck you got? Like, people who legitimately would invest in this stuff and also recognize kind of the potential in a positive impact way this will have, which is I know what you guys are definitely gonna bring to any creative consulting like that. That I think people don't understand how big that's gonna be, because it's just, we haven't had this shit ever in this economy, in this world, in this modern world. It could be really cool.

I think we're here to establish the East Coast aesthetic for what cannabis is all about, because I think the already the over commodification and over-commercialization of this beautiful spirit has taken place, and I see the bullshit, and it's happening, of course, profit corrupts things, but what we do is really grounded, and it's really authentic, and we don't stray from our values. We've been offered all kinds of money to do fucking shit. We don't wanna do it, and sometimes we just say, no, fuck you, it's not gonna work for us, so.

I love it.

Yeah.

And there's also a space camp.

Space camp, hit us up if you wanna go to space camp. You're asking yourself, what is space camp? Figure it out, go to our website. Cool, this was awesome, guys. Thank you so much.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you, thank you. This was synchronicity, and the very podcast coming together. I think we should do this more often.

Yeah, I'm down for the multi ones.

Cool, yeah, let's do it. Peace and love, peace.

Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

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