The Soul of the Artist with Justin Hopkins

(upbeat music)

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music)

Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week is Justin Hopkins. I know Justin, via Yoshino, and the wonderful artist decoded podcast. I know Justin because he is Yoshino's business partner in no wave, no H slash wave. And they're an art collective based in LA, downtown LA. Justin is friends with a lot of cool people, is an incredibly talented artist in his own right, but also curates and puts on events that are really, really cool. Granted, I've only been to one, and it's the one that I threw with him, but how much could I have been involved in the production outside of conceptualizing it? The actual work, making it beautiful in a physical space, programming wise.

Like I've co-produced and been production assistant many moons ago for a lot of different people, and it was awesome what Justin did. And more importantly, his art in the vibe that he curated, I think is probably the most, you know, stunning accomplishment. All right, some singing Justin's praises here, but truthfully, someone that I haven't known for very long, but we've communicated and spoke, spoke it on the phone, you know, and he's just, he's a cool dude. So this conversation is long, so I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you're ready for a long one. I'll make up for last week's, where we let Jason go a little bit early.

We're gonna have Jason back though. But this one's longer because Justin and I really liked bouncing ideas off each other. And I think that's what this is about. And I'd like to make a distinction, 'cause I think Justin makes this point in the middle of the episode, and I like to emphasize it as well, that we're not trying to come from the perspective that we have all of the answers. I think that's abundantly clear at this point if you listen to any other episodes of this podcast. But we have opinions, we have ideas, and throwing those around with someone else who's open-minded and flexible and has some sense of equilibrium related to this stuff is always fun.

And that's what I think the value of this episode really turns out. Justin hit me up right after and he's like, "You know what, I hope I wasn't rambling too much." I'm like, "Dude, that was amazing and it was perfect." And it was because you're gonna hear a lot of different things swirling around, but there's a common thread through them. So one of those threads, and I wanna explicitly say every single one, is this idea of beauty and art and truth and honesty kind of being wrapped up into this essence that artists try to communicate. And I think you're gonna hear a lot of other things that are gonna pique your interest in here.

So yeah, that's this episode. So I'm not gonna ramble on too much more. I just want people to know that I really appreciate you tuning in and listening. Do something nice for yourself. Also do something nice for someone close to you. That's another good thing to do, building on last week. We're gonna have some cool guests coming up. I already have, right after this intro, I'm going to record a podcast in Woodstock. So that one's out next week. We have stuff going on. Things are good, cryptocurrency. I'm not gonna steal six episodes like I did last time, last month or the month before, devoted purely to cryptocurrency, but you can expect to hear a little bit about it.

To that end, crypto sync, the server, Discord server, where we talk about lots of things, not just related to cryptocurrency. Our buddy, Chris, in there is down in South America doing some amazing stuff with indigenous people and some psychedelics and some indigenous medicine. That's not just ayahuasca. That's not all we're talking about. Some really cool stuff and some of the conversations that evolve in there really have nothing overtly to do with cryptocurrency, but you can see how certain types of people congregate. So here's what I'm doing. The original price of crypto sync was 0.033 Bitcoin per month.

Changing that, Bitcoin's going up to get a prohibitive cost. So now if you join, you get three-month access for the price of one month. If you wanna join, you can send me an email or you can join on syncpodcast.com. There's a pop-up that's probably driving enough of you crazy. Here's how you get rid of it. Sign up, but you know I have to. I'm gonna take it down soon 'cause we're getting close to 400 members and I wanna make sure that we have a nice group of people there. So this is the only place you'll hear about it outside of my personal social media or if you know me personally. So I don't want you to think I'm blasting this out of some money grabbed to get as many people to sign up.

It's really because I think it's a cool community. It's one of my favorite places to go every day. I'm there a lot. I'm not really on Facebook too much. I do still use Twitter. Speaking of Facebook, whoa boy. Oh boy. I'm not actually as upset as probably most people are Congress, hoyoyoyoy. But I mean listen, this is what we knew Facebook was doing. This Google's doing the same thing. This is their business. Their business is advertising. They sell your data in the metrics they gather on you to advertisers to help coerce you into buying things. Sometimes it's not a bad product. Sometimes it is.

Sometimes there's no value. It's just kind of how capitalism works. That said, there's so many other ways to do this. Take a look at Steam. Good call, Noel. In crypto sync this week, if you're looking at a crypto currency, there are ways to do decentralized networks that actually reward people for valuable content. There's other ones, po, poet. Anyway, my point is, is just be aware that this is going on. I find that when people really intuitively or not logically understand that a platform or a system is dead, that's when people move away. I don't think Facebook is gonna go bye bye. They have so much to you guys don't realize they have so much.

But that said, it is weird watching Zuckerberg up there emulate human emotions and running sequence 40342-A. But man, you know, stuff happens. But this is all to say that the server for crypto sync is a place that I actually find to be a wonderful social network for lack of a better word. So yeah, that's a way you can actually support yourself in the show, crypto currency. It's pretty cool. Anyway, enough about that. I won't take up any more time. Let's get to Justin. How about that? It's a long episode. I don't need to make it longer. Lots of love to you. Lots of love to Justin. Without further ado, here is Justin Hopkins.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) What's going on, man? Hey, all sorts, man. And as I'm sure, I'm sure is the same with you as well. Well, I'm excited to hear about a lot of those all sorts. Me too, hopefully it's interesting to you. There's a, yeah, man, it's a wild time. How did you wanna handle this? Yeah, it's a good question. Is this like real conversational? Yeah, I think that's probably the best way. I mean, like the truth is is, you know, through our limited personal in-person interactions, I've always had a really good time and liked you. And I'm using it, this is an opportunity to find out a little bit more, but also just to generally catch up with each other, 'cause we haven't spoken in, you know, at length in a little bit.

And I know you're always doing really cool shit. And I know the circle you run in are also very cool. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess we can just use it as a get-to-know-you kind of situation. Yeah. Are you, is this something where I can ask you questions as well? Yeah, this isn't an interview. Like I may sound like I'm interviewing at some point, but it's only out of habit for the people who do wanna be interviewed. For my friends and stuff, it's literally just a conversation. Awesome, cool, yeah, I'm into it, man. That's my kind of thing anyways. Sweet. Well, how about we start, I mean, we're already technically recording as soon as we jump on, but why don't we start with do a brief, I rarely do this, but I just wanna do it for my benefit.

Give a brief introduction of who is you. Who is me? Okay, I am Justin Hopkins. I'm an artist based in Los Angeles, California, co-founder and art director of No Wave with you, our mutual friend, Yoshino. Yeah. Who is the other co-founder and executive producer. So together, and with the help of our amazing roster of artists, we are No Wave. Yeah, and that's how I met you. Yeah, that is how you met me. Through our, that event, Mind Wave, like was like a year ago now, right? I think it was, was it, was it a year or two years? Not two years, 'cause we just celebrated our first year anniversary in February.

Holy shit. Let's show you how my brain is working. It feels like two years. Well, I think you're under that time stretching of fatherhood, you know? Holy shit, wait. I think things change for you. Yeah, I just got my marriage license yesterday, so it's very much-- Oh, congrats. That's super fun. And the future. That's super fun. It's a life-changing fun indeed. You have no idea, but it is really awesome. I got it, I think, I've been married four years now. So I'll tell you a funny story, not to go over my, our conversation about you, I lost my wedding ring on Friday, it fell down a great, and I had to basically get the whole neighborhood of where I lost it to help me.

It was right outside the daycare, a few lives daycare, who-- Dang. Dude, I had to have like 10 people, you know, get the grade off, I was waiting through muck to get it, but I got it back. But I will tell you, that is a good, it is a good microcosm of what marriage is. It's wonderful, it's amazing, and it's way, people don't tell you. People can't fully relay what it is, but you're gonna fucking love it, dude. I know, I haven't met your lovely wife to be, but I know your perspective and just kind of who you are as a person, and I think you're really gonna like it.

Oh, I have no doubt, you would love her. She's so up your alley, it's unbelievable.

You were telling me.

Yeah, she's incredible, and real quick side note, just because of like, in forsake of synchronicity and all of that, you said that happened on Friday. I actually picked up my wedding ring, or yeah, my wedding band on Friday as well.

How about that? - How about that? We both have anecdotes. Friday-based ring-based anecdotes.

So, okay, let's back it up. Let's start at No Wave, 'cause that's where we got introduced through our mutual friend, Yoshino. You're also doing yourself a tremendous disservice by not leading with that. You're a very accomplished and amazing artist in your own right, so not only a founder of a collective, but incredibly talented, and I believe, I remember you saying you have a lineage of artists in your family, so I think like, what was most impressive to me about what we did in LA was probably really what you guys did, but outside of the actual production of the event, the vibe and the community of people that you kind of, you know, fostered and encouraged there was really like one of the most impressive things I've come across, and I've gone through a lot of different communities through my relatively short life, so I know that there's something that's very substantial underneath the surface, which I'm excited for delving into, but I mean, like, how did you get into, like, what pulled you towards the artistic path?

Well, I mean, to be honest, it's just, it's almost like a birth rate in a weird way. I don't like thinking things like that, except that I'm incredibly blessed in a way to be born into a family of artists, and was given that gift by my parents, and then I lived in a household of working professional artists, like successful working professional artists, so there's always the support there, and also, it wasn't a weird lifestyle, you know, it wasn't something that was looked down upon, or like, this is just a phase you're going through in order to go and try to study medicine, it was just like, this is a viable career path, you can have a healthy lifestyle, have a family, live a successful, prosperous life while still being an artist, I think a lot of people get hung up, even if they were born with the gift, you know, the genetic gift, or the vision, or whatever it is, early on they lose that because it's pounded out of them by the iron fist of logic and rationale, you know, so they don't foster that, their imagination, where I never ran into that, my imagination was always praised, and I think that's a really important thing, so my dad was back in the day, like a really famous illustrator, he's probably best known for doing the poster for "Indiana Jones" and "The Temple of Doom"

and "Sticks" album covers and "Oingo Boingo" album covers, and always big movie posters for like, "The Abyss" and things like that, like, he was a big, like, Hollywood illustrator.

I didn't know he did "The Abyss", that's cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he did "The Abyss" and all kinds of big movies back in the day, and a lot of the posters that Drew Strewson didn't do, who's like another incredibly notable artist of that time. And my mom, when I was young, she was just my mom, and then into her 30s, she kind of, she started studying basketry and because she was, she had this unbelievably intense, one-of-a-kind talent, she quickly mastered, like, traditional basketry style, started teaching it, and then within a matter of like five years of his exhibiting worldwide and using his all over the world now.

That's awesome, oh my God.

Yeah, so I've seen it like, my dad was born with a gift and he did it his whole life, and then I saw my mom find it later on in life and create a success for herself, so I have two, like, totally rare examples of like, of the art, of the art life taking hold of you.

Yeah, you have some interesting karma, my friend. You did some-

I said, that's some really good stuff.

I, well, you know, just someone had to be born, you know, born into such luck and it just happened to me. Maybe not fortune, but certainly, certainly the culture I was born into, being surrounded by the arts was something I'm very grateful for, you know?

Yeah, that's amazing, dude. That's really cool. I mean, I think a lot of people, you know, when they're either thrust or think that they have some artistic, but I mean, just to be clear, I think everyone does, but people who really view it as potentially either a viable, if not lucrative, endeavor have to deal with so much cultural pushback to begin with, but their family as well. Like, I know a lot of people who are very, very, very talented, who have given a different, you know, family perspective could have done, you know, with some support could have done some amazing things, but to be born into it.

And then also not to have that be like, I imagine it wasn't an environment where you were forced to be an artist. You were allowed to foster and grow your own kind of, you know, impressions of why it was something valuable to do.

Yeah, oh, I just thought my dad was the coolest motherfucker on the planet, so I would just hang out with him and like I would go through all his art books and I had a little drafting table next to his drafting table, little easel next to his, you know, I just was kind of modeling myself after this guy and he was just, and continues to be an amazing person more than just like a really respected artist. He's a hell of a guy and everybody who's met him will say the same thing, so.

Yeah, that's awesome, man.

It was just a real strong father figure, and I'd have forced into it just like, this is the pinnacle of who you can be as a person, so I just modeled myself in that way, you know?

So how did you start like doing, like when's like the earliest or an earlier memory you have of like, you know, being like, I like to do art, this is something I want to do, not just, you know, maybe if you did it because your dad was the role model, but then when you kind of started grokking, like what this potentially could be.

I've always been, I think it's just what I've, it was just really natural to me, you know? Again, like I didn't see it as like, like something that was odd, or it was always something that gave me some kind of social and currency, even in school, like I would, I'd be quiet and shy and wasn't really too good at speaking to my peers, but I could draw pictures that brought them to me, you know? So it was something that like, I just got like instant gratification out of like, I was, I was always one of the better drawers in the class and, you know? And they would, it was kind of like a magic trick for the other kids to see it.

So that kind of, that was nice, but I didn't really feel like I'm an artist until, and this is still really early, but until I was 10 years old, like a picture of a, a picture of a cheetah, a picture of a cheetah, and then that's what actually got my dad's attention. And then I started pretty heavy training for a while when I was going up into high school. From 10 years old up into high school, I actually became a professional illustrator at 14.

Wow.

Doing jobs for, jobs my dad didn't have time to do for like Costco and started showing at 12 and all these things because I was just like, I finally got my dad's attention for like, Oh wow, my kids, maybe it's not that I'm just a proud father. It's a maybe my son's actually got some talent. And so he started, he started training me for, you know, it's like, oh, we can do this, you can do this. And just like basically the joy of experimentation, you know?

Yeah.

So.

And is that, I guess, 10, 10 years old. That's so, I mean, that's fascinating that you're doing work at a young age for companies that your dad is a guy. I don't have time for this. I'll just put my incredibly talented gift son on these projects.

Well, it was really, I didn't realize how, you know, I guess maybe had an inkling how rare that was at the time 'cause it was a weird kind of job to have.

Yeah, yeah.

But again, in my household, it's like, that was just always around. Like my dad, that was what my dad did all the time and worked from home. So I saw it all the time.

So let me ask you this, that's the career and professional aspect of being an artist, which I think a lot of people find interesting. But what have you noticed walking the artistic, the artist's path for lack of a better turn to be kind of hokey about it? Like what are some of the subtle things that you've experienced through art as a medium? Because obviously, you know, it's one thing when we look at something and go, oh yeah, that's pretty or that makes me feel this or that song makes me feel this. But we know it's people who create this stuff and pull it out of, whether it's our imaginations or drawing out something out of the ether often.

What's kind of been your experience, you know, dealing with that aspect of art?

You mean like the conception of it or like the creative compulsion?

Yes, both of those things, both of them actually.

Okay, so like actually piggybacking on something you said a little bit ago that everybody has art and you know, it can't be an art. Or you said something to the fact that people have art and then something like that. Well, I agree and disagree with that 100%. So I know that's a strange statement. But I think 100% of people have the creative spark. Like that is what makes humankind what it is. Creativity is just to me just like the adaptive intelligence that allows us to be like survival machine.

Sure. - Really, you know. And but being an artist is a different thing because that comes with a compulsion to direct that in a channel towards something that is, it all comes from the compulsion of it really. Like because that like, it gets the hard work which gets the skill which creates the drive which, you know, not everybody has that, you know. And that's what separates artists from people who are the most creative physicians, most creative. Like I would say like someone who's a waiter or something like that can be incredibly like brilliant creative thinkers but they, and I'm not talking down on waiters at all.

Of course I get it.

But like that, but they're able to drive it in a certain way that is beneficial in a different way. It doesn't have the same compulsion to make these objects that an artist has, you know. And I think that's really all it takes to become an artist that's also an incredibly rare, I won't call it a gift because it's really fucking frustrating.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Most of the time, you know. It's like you can almost align it with the mental illness in a way that like, if you don't do this thing, you will start deteriorating as a person in a way, you know.

Okay, let's talk about this 'cause this is something that I think has taken me over 30 years to actually come to terms with that what you're referring to as a compulsion and something that can actually negatively impact one's life if they don't do it has been my experience. And it took me a pretty long time to figure out that that was the case. I was like, why do I just feel so, like I was legitimately losing my mind over the past like three or four months because I shifted from having a decent amount of time in space to flex my creative muscles to taking care of Eli all the time. And I literally started cracking up.

Like hitting nervous breakdown points where I'm like, holy shit, what the fuck, like this doesn't make any sense. So I totally know what you're talking about. I mean, I'd love to talk about that compulsion or refer to as compulsion more and probate because I think it's one of the most interesting things that we can look at because it does feel that something that's a little pre-speech, pre being able to communicate totally effectively but shedding as much light on it as we can. I mean, here's what I say about the agreeing and disagreeing. I agree that everyone has the creative spark. I definitely think that I think more people than those who realize it have that same compulsion but are just either suppressing it or buying into other narratives about what is going on in life to actually give it the creatives to actually kind of, because I don't know, we could posit it like this.

Do we think the world and society and culture is running at like optimum performance?

No, probably not.

No, no, I totally understand what you're saying too and I think that again comes back to me for being my initial anecdote about being grateful for like the household that was brought into, to where the things I had were kind of unbridled and that was a natural genetic thing. And also, again, like the compulsion, I think is there in more, more, I won't say everybody 'cause I know that's not true but like in more people than that are actually artists, definitely have something that they are, like you can say here to do, you could say just have this certain sequence or just make up outside of their control that best suits them to something that is a perpetual joy-making machine or something like that.

But maybe that's not in the quote-unquote arts, maybe that's in like people find out late in life that all they really wanna do is go out in the community and help people and they can find out this is the most efficient way and that's a compulsion, that's the whole following your bliss thing, you know?

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear what your mom would say about finding the basket weaving and making later in life as a passion or not even a passion but like a skill and I imagine that must have felt like a compulsion to ascend as quickly as she did. That's so interesting. - Oh, for sure.

She's the genius of the family, for sure. (laughing)

The women usually are. (laughing)

Yeah, she just, she hadn't, she, yeah, she discovered that, you know? It was like, it was like, and it was a thing that like, yeah, that's a perfect example to your point that yeah, she didn't know that existed.

Right. - And what you like, you always think about like maybe the passion or the thing I'm meant to do is just something I will never discover and that's a tragedy that I have to deal with.

I never thought about that, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, like, I've thought about a lot. It's like, maybe I'm like, meant to be the best 16th century marble sculptor of all time.

You should do it. - But I just have it.

Start trying.

Well, I just, well, it just like, you know, what comes with that is the culture of it too. Maybe like this art form is not as relevant now so I can't reach a mountain and that has many people and you know, you just think like, and the tools aren't the same, the culture of like apprenticeship isn't the same. All these things have to play into what makes something valuable. And you just think, oh man, maybe just by like some accident of like whatever this like kind of ongoing mechanism you call it God or some kind of like karmic placement like just was off by a fraction. I landed 300 years too, like, you know.

Yeah, I think about that sometimes.

Well, I'd be curious here because now we're dovetailing into something that I think is probably like what this, the root of this show tends to get to.

And I'm really sorry about that tangency, but.

No my God, this is what I, these conversations are what I dream of for this type of stuff man. What are you kidding me? So your wife does some very interesting things and I want to go too much in and I'd love to have her on at some point if she's up for it 'cause I want to find out. - Oh yeah.

But would you consider yourself or like, you strike me as both someone who is very practical and logical and reasonable, but you also seem to have a pretty clear mystical undertone as well. But where would you describe yourself kind of on this, this spectrum of like, let's say scientific materialism is at one end. I certainly don't think of it there. And then totally woo new age, you know, where just ethereal vapor beings living in a dream at the other end.

Where are you from in that spectrum current?

Well it's like, you know, I think I tend to be really philosophical more than mystical in the way and I think any reasonable person, really truly reasonable person, a really truly skeptical person will understand like the tremendous gaps in his knowledge or her knowledge and that those gaps can be filled with mystery and that can be beautiful. And beauty is really what draws me. I find beauty in scientific like understanding of people. And science always comes from observing nature and the mysteries of nature. So I like that and like science is really just like a strategy in order to understand the natural world, you know.

So I love, there's so much beauty in that. There's fractals, geometry, that is very science and math based, but it comes from observing nature and understanding the mysteries of it. And there's certain mysteries that are just gonna be mysteries because of the way that we are constructed, we are not able to see the patterns that other animals see, other entities or forces feel.

Right.

And to understand your humanness and have humility in the face of mysteries is really what mysticism comes from in my mind.

Yes.

And like or faith or belief or religion all comes from the humility of realizing your humanness in the face of a much larger force. And again, you can call that God, you can call it.

Right.

Just like cosmic physical forces. You know, both of these things can be equally true based on how you calibrate your sense of perspective. But for me, I am a non-religious, skeptical, observant person or try to be observant. And while doing those things, you notice things that you can't understand and that nobody can. And there's a beauty in that and I try to celebrate that beauty. Does that make any sense?

It makes a tremendous amount of sense is maybe one of the most coherent and cogent ways of describing something I think a lot of us kind of intuitively resonate with, which is yeah, man, like we don't have all the answers, but we found something that seems to make sense more often than not and it doesn't make us feel like shitty people as we're living that. So yes, but it sounds like to me.

Yeah. And I love the pursuit of knowledge and beauty and the pursuit of knowledge in itself is beautiful. And that really is my job is the pursuit of that. So I'm fine-tuned to try to receive all those different aspects of what is beauty. And beauty is when people really break it down is honesty and truth, you know?

So that's really what beauty is.

You seem like you're a Plato fan.

I like Plato a lot. I like, I like, I like Hegel a lot. I like Kierkegaard a lot of like Fraurbach a lot. I like all those guys. I love Nietzsche a lot.

Yeah, I love all that stuff.

What about the Eastern stuff?

I love the Eastern stuff, you know, like, I love Buddhism. I've read the entire Bible. I was really obsessed with philosophy and religion when I was growing up. My dad's Christian, and my mom's like kind of like more Unitarian, not Unitarian, but like, I say agnostic with the sides of Buddhism in her. So I came from a pretty mixed bag of philosophies anyways in addition to the artistic background.

So how does that filter through? I think it's amazing, by the way. And it explains a lot, I think, on why we just kind of naturally get along together 'cause we're sharing similar outlets in the world.

How does this fit into things that fall into the mysterious category you were referring to when you have those occurrences in everyday life that kind of transcend the way things that, you know, at least culturally or societally or even maybe empirically we've been told they exist. How do you filter all that through?

I'm sorry, you might need to give me an example or a quick side. I really absolutely don't like your questions.

So let's say it's like a synchronicity or something. So we're talking about something that, or precognition, you know, you had some idea that this person was gonna do something, you know, get in touch with you for some momentous thing and it happens or, you know, for instance, we were talking about, I don't think it's a cute example, but the wedding thing, we both actually dealt with retrieving and picking up rings in different ways. Where does that mysterious kind of aspect or those things fall into play? How do you process that? You know, what's your narrative or what's your outlook on that?

Oh man, well, I think that's, there's a lot of different things we're going on there. There's like, it could be the fact that we are both men growing up in America at a certain age and you know, you could bring it, break it down to like, you know, like coincidence, you could say that. Like, I'm not opposed to that being the case. Like, I don't, I'm not a guy who's against random chance. I think that's just as beautiful as some cosmic echo, you know? I think that's, both of those are viable. I think that like synchronous things and things like that can come down to a lot of things. Like I noticed synchronous in my life a lot or I would say maybe manifestation and like observation as a skill developing my imagination which some other people would call your third eye so language, you know, it's like whatever your language is and like my third eye or my imagination has been accumulating data for so long and aware that it's accumulating data for so long that you can kind of perceive into what are possibly future conclusion and then like shift your life towards that in a way and then make it so those chances line up more and more with what you want out of life.

It's like, it's not exactly, it has anything to do with the ring thing but has more to do with like Austin Osman-Spare who's like the chaos magician who I got a lot out of in the sense that like he would do these rituals and because he plays so much intention behind each ritual it didn't matter what ritual it was because all of a sudden you're focusing your attention so all of a sudden you narrow down your potential realities in front of you and then you direct the force of your mind and your body towards these things and all of a sudden the things you want become more and more available to you because you've blocked out all these opposites like other kind of like abstract distractions

Yeah like noise for lack of a better word when you're trying to focus on something.

Yeah and in a lot of ways like the rise of ritual and practice and mindfulness in the midst of a chaotic world is I think is helping people kind of realize that more and more at least it goes in kind of waves and surges but I would say that we are in a time right now where people are developing those skills again.

Yeah it seems to me, we have much to divert too much but what do you think is going on right now? It seems to me maybe we're all just kind of collectively living the illusion of central position but it seems pretty fucking crazy. Just like--

Oh yeah, well I think it seems really cool that certain aspects of it seem really clear, you know. And the way that I was just having this conversation with our friend Yoshino and also my future wife about like how I was just noticing these strange things that are happening and I think in 10 years from now it'll be really obvious and there'll be some really incredible think piece on the fact that wow isn't it strange that during 2017 and probably 2018, 2016 to 2018 the biggest trends in the world were stress relief and especially through children because they are the most sponge of anybody they don't have these barriers built up by adulthood so what are the kids interested in?

The kids are interested in fidget spinners, the kids are into making slime and things that are oddly satisfying are cutting so things that are both based on relieving stress and the tactile use of your own body parts to create this sense of like activating your senses in a way that is still very much ingrained in people because they're bombarded by digital chaos and like socioeconomic chaos is, we can go really deep into that because that's a will to power, that's a way of confusion is a way of overpowering masses and things like that. But like, but you'll notice that, you'll notice as you, when you're at Whole Foods or wherever the fuck, even Rite Aid or Vons, you will notice cover of Time magazine, mindfulness, the rise of mindfulness, all these things that are about canceling out noise and using your body to do so, you know.

Using ingrained like ancient physiological technologies in order to cancel noise. So I think there's a lot of noise and as a reaction to that, our bodies will kind of react and then on a whole, as a collection of bodies, culture will react. But it's hard to see that while you're in it.

Yeah, I think that's really.

But yeah.

But yeah, so that's...

I didn't know if that answered your question, but I was trying to say something.

No, I get it because it is something that it's, this idea of like, I often use it with social media where we don't have the ability to really process how quickly technology and this web of consciousness that we're kind of overlaying everything and beginning physical things as well now. The internet of things and a lot of the things related to cryptocurrency are purging or going into this area. It does seem like we're losing the ability to quickly reflect or take a step back and say, "Hey, what's happening as a culture?" But individually, we're feeling compelled to do this. And now it feels like there is not necessarily a pullback, but there is this desire to kind of integrate or at least process what's going on.

So it does seem like these skills are being kind of evoked for lack of a better term by this kind of uncomfortableness, I think, for a lot of people. And that's truthfully how I would describe, I don't think a lot of people wake up every day in this day and age thinking they know exactly what's gonna happen that next day. And I don't know that people ever really did. Maybe we were just younger and it seemed simpler, but it certainly feels like at the rate that we're being able to plug into each other, just in terms of connectivity. I mean, we haven't had any, how are we gonna have a long-term study on the impacts of consciousness, now being interlaced in a way heretofore that's never been explicitly shown?

Like, how do we analyze that? And what's gonna come out of that? So yeah, I mean, that's what it feels like we're into. What is the kind of mystical, mystery aspect of you think when it comes to this day and age? Oh, God, weird question. Because again, it's like, the mist, it's hard to say. All I know is that, yeah, there's a lot of, I would say, just general friction. And I think what's happening, this is not the mystical side of me, this is the logical side of me. But it'll get to the mystical side of me. If that is the side of me, I'm not entirely sure. I think it's kind of all the same side.

But yeah, there's a friction that's being presented to people. And I don't think people have ever really had the ability to reflect on their own times. Now, I mean, not on the whole. I think, honestly, I think that's what the artists are for. That really is the job of the artists is to reflect on what's going on and ask questions more than give answers because the questions can provide you with a variety of answers based on your backgrounds and your social upbringing and stuff like that. So questions are more important for the culture than answers in a way, because then you have the variety of answers to be given in your own mind.

And that can give way to knowledge, which gives way to wisdom, and which gives way to inspiration, let's say. So maybe that's more, that's again, like the compulsion for asking those questions in a way that you act as a channel to provide these things. That's what makes an artist versus someone who's almost on a craftsmanship level, like the best cabinet maker in the world.

So this, I like this analogy 'cause this further is just kind of a concept or something I like to think about. I don't know how often I think about it, but I like the concept of that. Artists are just like shamans in a lot of different ways. And I think people who have strong artistic proclivities or the compulsion, as you put it, are doing a very similar thing to what a shaman may do. They may know that or they may not know that, but what it is is it's a communication with the world that's not seen, at least by other people around them. And then as you said, being a channel or some vessel for this thing to be pushed through, and it's not like it comes through pure.

It's pushed through your particular perspectives, your karma, your whatever it is. And it creates something that people can then look at, then evokes something that resonates with them, hopefully not necessarily the same exact feeling, but that nonetheless stirs something that's in them already, which to me, kind of completes this interconnected meme that I am fond of recognizing in other philosophies, religions, thinkers, which it really does to me as time goes on, seem like this web of interconnectedness becomes less of a concept and more of just like a fundamental reality that we live in. That's how I factor in going back to the synchronicity stuff, to me that it's just, that's all it is.

It's just for a minute, we see just how interconnected this is, and just how this doesn't work, how we filter it down through our particular viewpoints. Let me ask you this, not to shift gears too abruptly. Psychedelics. You've done psychedelics?

Yes, of course. But I would really like to--

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

So, you said a lot, right?

I know.

And I was going through, we started with the shamanism part, which is actually something my friend Sergio says all the time, I'm a fellow artist in New York, and he, Sergio Barale, a very good friend of mine, and he always says that our artists are shamans, and shamans have our artists in the past. It's really what they are. I don't know that I fully agree with that, and it could be my discomfort of taking that responsibility because I think, I don't think, I'm always a little skeptical of people who say they're shamans, 'cause I think there's a little weightiness to it that I don't really trust, so I won't--

Okay, let me--

I won't take that on, but--

Let me click.

But I do have one more thing to say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that is that when you were saying about creating all this interconnectedness, I've always seen, at least what I try to do, whether it be in music or fine arts, visual arts, film, or whatever, is the thing is like, these pieces are a psychic portal between people.

Yes.

A collaboration with the viewer where they can project onto it, and also the object itself, if it is something, if it is an object that you make, is just the proof of an idea, and the idea is the culmination of thoughts and culture, and all these different factors that create this thing, and all the culture and factors are not just in you, but outside of you as well, so that's where the channel comes in. You're literally channeling like funnel these outside influences into this object.

Yes.

So, there you go. Feel free to shift gears.

No, no, no, no, now this is, I really like that you said that too, because that to me is kind of what art is. It is that energy be kind of shaped in a way that's presented to other people, whether it's, like you said, visual or audio, and obviously they play differently in time and temporal time, but no, totally man, I completely get it. Well, I brought up psychedelics, and the shaman thing too, let me clarify when I say that. Shaman is a loaded word right now. A lot of people will think of, I have corunderos, ayahuascaeros, this whole South American, you're gonna go to your shaman and take ayahuasca.

There's a whole other kind of cultural appropriation aspect of shamanism. What I'm referring to a shamanism is the traditional sense, regardless of culture, of someone who traditionally plays the role of being in contact with a spirit world, whatever you wanna call it, some ethereal thing that maybe everyone has access to, but goes pretty much over the edge, like over the fucking edge, where maybe it manifests as a compulsion to communicate this to other people or just do it, maybe not even show it to anyone, but you've gone to this place and have been so profoundly affected by it that you then feel compelled to communicate it.

The reason I brought up psychedelics as much of a non-sequitur as it may have seen is because that is something that seems to be a similar threat is found in psychedelics. Whether you consider yourself an artist or not, you have this experience where it's like, oh shit, oh fuck.

Yeah.

It's not the way I thought it was. So that's why I kind of draw those similarities just to thread that all together. But I don't mean like shaman, like I'm some special person, I do this. I mean, shaman in a sense, like you've gotten in contact with something and are now doing your best to communicate it in a way that's valuable, hopefully, to the culture.

Yeah, oh, okay. In that way, yes, I totally agree with that. I just don't, I have a certain amount of discomfort with trying to speak on things I don't know much about that. I would hope for all ties, you know.

Understandable.

But no, I don't find your segue into psychedelics to be, is too much out of it. You know, it's completely part of it. And I think more than anything, it's like, at least for me, I've only done mushrooms and I know people do mushrooms for a lot of different reasons. I don't see that as like a drug of any kind. I see it as like, as an educational device.

Yeah.

And really what I've, what I've realized about psychedelics is you're the internal world map inside your brain. Once you can kind of see the all the corners of it that you didn't know existed is very much like the exterior world outside of you. And there's a lot of the same shapes. And I recommend all my friends who maybe haven't tried psychedelics who are, have this creative force. Like I recommend doing it. I mean, as long as you don't, I mean, I don't know enough about like mental illness and stuff like that. I recommend it to everyone. But like, but for someone who doesn't have a history of that and like, is hits a block or something, I highly recommend it as a way to keep that channel clean, pure and wider to more influences.

Because what it did for me, the first time I did it, let's just say this is all just a, this is a fictitious version.

Yeah, of course, that's what I was gonna say.

This is a fictional version of the characters all their names have been changed. (laughing) So like I went up to, let's say upstate, or somebody's place up there. Like a whole, it's just all artists all around, you know. Who knows what everybody else is doing, but I use this opportunity to experiment with psychedelic mushrooms. I had been holding on to them for a long time and I had no idea really what was coming, but I had been pretty aside from like, drinking socially and like occasionally smoking marijuana to fall asleep. I was really not interested in drugs of any fact.

Sure.

So breaking down the idea of what psychedelics were so many of the people I respect, whether it be neuroscientists, mystics, or artists, or philosophers, it's all kind of coming together in the sense that like everybody generally holds this thing, whatever it is in high regard.

Yeah.

So what I noticed when I did it out there was the complete obliteration of what I thought was my reality in the sense that it fucked up my senses. Like it recalibrated my senses in such a way that just that changed my whole sense of what reality could be.

Right, right.

And that there's a more sophisticated truth that underlies this thing that you can see, you know. Like, and you can realize that just by realizing like birds see something completely different. Then you like really functionally they see something completely different than you, but actually realizing that in a real deep sense like you experiencing it.

Experiencing it, yeah.

Yeah, or experiencing something that could at least be an analog for that, you know.

Right, right, right.

Like you're setting your hearing is turned all the way up, your vision is turned all the way up. And if you are able to keep your fear levels down and just act as like a passenger or a tourist through this different experience, you can learn a lot about like how the interconnectedness of things, if you look at everything just vibrating around you and that you are also vibrating and you lose that sense of like whatever that sense is that keeps your body intact by differentiating you from the table that no longer is functioning in the same way. You realize you can have empathy for an object much like you did as a child when I feel bad for a bag of cookies 'cause no one wanted to eat it.

So I eat it, like you can feel empathy in that way for. And what's interesting is you can still remember that now. That's a very interesting thing too.

Yeah, it was a extremely pivotal time in my life where I was incredibly sensitive, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then just kind of realizing, yeah, synchronicities and patterns that maybe aren't as readily available because of the amount of noise. Again, the amount of noise. And just like you have to be forced into, because you can't, like the thing about psychedelics and people often bring up like, well if they haven't done psychedelics, it's like, isn't it like, can't you get there with meditation? And I always think like, perhaps, like I don't think so because the thing about psychedelics is like you find yourself on a new plateau of things you haven't seen before. So how could you start enacting those things unless you're forced into the situation to experience something you've never experienced before?

'Cause I think even in meditation, at least in my experience is still coming from the inside and you can become aware of tremendous inner truths but being forced into them, like against your will almost is a different kind of jarring experience. And then once you have that experience, then you can meditate on that and develop that further, you know. In my mind.

That's really interesting. I mean, I have two thoughts about that. One is is that the experience of meditating is something that I think, you know, some of the things I hear about long-time meditator or even the stories we hear about ancient ones is, you know, you can use to do some pretty wild shit, disassociated from your body, you know, live entire different lives, you know, things that maybe we're not rocking as medit-- I'm an impatient meditator, I rarely meditate. I do a lot of other things, you know, that we've quote unquote spiritual order to get me in tune. But I will say this, I mean, one of the benefits of psychedelics, I think, not that one is better than the other is that if you have your regular daily experience, that's a type of mindfulness.

Whether we're aware of it or not, when we wake up every day, we're doing a mindfulness thing. We're reinforcing if we don't pay attention, just, you know, habitual habits that we'll do throughout the day, brush our teeth, do this, gotta go to work, gotta make money, whatever they are. But that's what we're paying attention to. If you have an experience that knocks you out of that, but you still have the reference point of that original mindfulness of what life is actually like, your regular life, that fucks with enough people that it's like, oh shit, maybe this thing that I've been thinking is what life is in my perspective is just one perspective at a potentially infinite perspective or many different ones just situationally that I can recognize during a psychedelic experience.

So I do think that kind of bridge that psychedelics provides is something that's very useful for a lot of people. I will say that not everyone comes away with the same conclusion. I was talking about this. I forget who just recently that one of the first things that kind of blew my mind about the psychedelic scene is I was on Reddit, like, I don't know, seven years ago or something, six years ago, and there was the psychonaut forum and I just went on there and see what was going on and there were these vitriolic arguments between people about dosages and experiences and the one truth of reality.

I'm like, how the fuck did these people like miss this? Like, they're literally on the internet arguing about a psychedelic experience about who's is right. Like, did they miss the part where your ego gets destroyed and you realize it doesn't fucking matter who thinks they're right in this? And so it proved to me that it's not like it's a one-size-fits-all but that experience of being jarred out of your reality really does seem to have a concrete effect for people. Have you micro-nosed by chance?

I haven't, like, I'm interested and uninterested in that at the same time, like, you were onto something and said a bunch of interesting stuff I wanted to piggyback on and now it's just eluding me as you're so, you're so quick with accumulating ideas and conversational starters, but, no, it's good. It's really, really good. What was I thinking though? Oh, yeah, really quick and then I'm gonna get to that micro-dose.

Yeah, yeah. So, like, shit, did I lose it again? Okay, so, this is a complex idea for me. So, like, meditation and psychedelics, both very, very important things to have in tandem, you know? But I do think they are fundamentally different and, like, I'm just gonna preface this by saying, I don't know, shit, I'm not an expert on anything at all, ever, and I think if more people said that, the world would be a better, more insightful point.

I know, I couldn't agree with it.

I don't know, I don't know, shit. But what I do think is that meditation, you're still like, yeah, you can experience different lives, you can be more connected with who you are in nature and all these things by being aware of things. Yes, but that's still based on reference points that is familiar to you. Whereas, like, at least for me, my personal experience with psychedelics, like I said, turned my senses on so high that there was things that I realized that I had no idea existed, that I would have no reference point of. It's like seeing the color you've never seen for the first time and trying to paint that, even though you know no one else can see.

It's like, it's something that you experience that, you had no idea existed, and then you can take that experience now and put it into your meditation and then become more connected from there. It's like, let's say, a multi-step process in human betterment than by, and then as a result, cultural betterment. Anyways, micro-dose thing, I've not done it. So I can't speak to it too much, but I'm interested.

Do that effect, let me connect those two dots that you eloquently laid out there. I agree, I mean, I think that one of the reasons that psychedelics is a meme or it's a cultural mechanism or so prolific right now, especially in the artistic, but obviously going outside of those realms, is because it does, it gives us that contact, that kind of shamanistic contact with these different layers of reality that people respond to naturally, that they're not being coerced into responding to, like marketing is apt to do, you know, in our culture, which is where we're being convinced that this is something we need to do.

This will get us this, which is kind of an antidote and a natural rebalancing of kind of this capitalistic, consumeristic society. So I don't find it surprising that psychedelics, something is jarring, maybe it's, you know, the analogy I'd give is a spiritual lesson. It's like kind of getting slapped in the face with something, like a shoe, like, you know what I mean? Like you, this isn't like a light thing, you're not maybe gonna have some effects. If you take 900 micrograms of acid, you're gonna trip, you take five grams of mushrooms, you're gonna trip, you're gonna have an experience pleasant or not, guaranteed. - Yeah.

So I don't find it surprising. So the microdosing thing I connect is because I, personally, mushrooms microdosing, I've had mixed results. I didn't find it a sustainable regimen that I could, you know, regularly do to predictable results. I think if I was doing kind of like an artistic retreat and had like a month uninterrupted, that would be pretty amazing. But I also think maybe taking mushrooms, you know, a couple times a week for over a month would be an amazing thing for art as well. That said, LSD microdosing, I found to be done in a regimen over the course of two months, three months. That has been a profound talk about a tool that kind of integrates, I think, some of these much needed kind of qualities of reflection, awareness, you know, non-judgment, having those kind of naturally be those bridges into your life really does seem to have some truth to me.

It's been my direct experience and I've both, you know, played with it on and off for large cycles of time. And I'm certainly starting to fall into the camp where I think this is a useful thing. And I bring it up just to connect all of this is because I think culturally, societally, mystically, whatever you want to call it, we're going through some really big changes right now. We're the way that, you know, we feel when we take psychedelics that really overt explicit in our face healing, seems like that world is slowly starting to bleed into what we like to believe is consensus reality. So I think the more experience we have with those states, whether it's via art, psychedelics, meditation, whatever it is, microdosing, it's beneficial for people to be exposed to that and get familiar with it.

That's kind of where I've been thinking about this over the past few months, especially.

I agree, I got nothing to add to that.

Yeah. - That's great.

I think that's correct. There's one thing I'd like to back up to, which is something like a point you're making about Reddit. People arguing about dosage and things like that. I think that's, first off, just humans being human.

Yeah. - Human's going to be humans. But even if they're exposed to, it's like, I always think about seeing an amazing film or like being exposed to tremendous art. Like, you need to have, you need to be ready for that to fully experience. People still do mushrooms and go to high school parties and be like, whoa, what the fuck, you know? But, which is fine, I suppose. I can't really see them as that, you know? Like, I don't, it's not fine, but I mean, it's also just a part of growing, you know? Like, some people are never going to have that drive for understanding or beauty by being so open to experience these things as education, you know?

Some people, it's purely a way of like, you know, drowning out noise or escapism. And I won't say that's not totally valid. It's not how I see it. I respect the thing because it's given me a lot more than that. And I think when people become open to that, they can. But like, for instance, like, oh, you're doing the dose wrong and shit like that, that's so like mind-numbingly stupid to me in this sense that like, but like, when you see a movie, like, let's say you go, like, let's say we go watch the movie Black, let's say we go see Black Panther or something, right? We're watching Black Panther and, and like, and I can't claim to have the same experiences as anybody else.

But like, for me, from my standpoint as an artist, being a fan of art and wanting to see like the cultural context and so like social kind of criticisms in there, I'm open to those things like, oh, this is like a smart movie. Look how the extremists like really change the xenophobic king, who he's only, and he's like, the hero of the story, only by way of that, the context for all superhero movies is that the main character is the hero. But is he really the hero here? And all these things. And then someone right next to me watching the same movies, same age, same education for you, like, man, that was fucking crazy, huh?

How did that fight scene in the car exploded? Yeah, right. You know, and it's like they had the same, they took in the same thing and they didn't experience the same thing at all. Right. So even if something for something is powerful as mushrooms, like you can, there's context and subtext and your level of sophistication and openness is really what determines how potent that experience is. Yes, yes, yes. So people who are going to be critical or gear, let's say in music, gear heads versus like virtuosic, beautiful composers, gear heads who get caught, and not that there's anything wrong with gear heads, but they are seeing the apparatus as vehicle for the idea as beautiful. So some people who experience escapism, see that is a beautiful thing, whereas like the taking in an obsession with knowledge and observation of the outside world is a different experience. And that, again, is the compulsion of the artist.

Yeah, and I think you're making a good point that they're probably neither of them are less valid. I think where the validity is sometimes lost, not in terms of actually being lost but obscured, is that when it's tinged with derisiveness or negativity, when the perspectives that you're alluding to get one better, because there's nothing wrong with gear heads, like you said, there's nothing wrong with virtuosic. Both are equally valid. And I think what you're saying is the artist's job is to show these different perspectives and I love it, man. Let me, let me, let me say this. What are you doing now? Because we've gone such down the rabbit hole of philosophy for people, their heads are probably in knots right now.

Sure. Because what's funny about this is if you go to any event that Justin puts on in Yoshino in LA, you'll see that for all of the heady gymnastics that we're doing with words right now, like this stuff is just, you will feel more than anything else. You may think and you may ponder but you will feel and it's palpable. So what are some things that you're working on right now? Well, first of all, I appreciate you saying that. And really quick before we move there, I do want to say what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You can never have to about it. I do say ones just, I say what they're both valid. I believe that and don't believe it at the same time.

Like that is also the friction of being an artist. You have to think that, and all people with all opinions, you choose your opinion because you think it's right. Of course. I think having a sophisticated understanding and literacy about observation is the pinnacle of what humans accomplish. And that's what makes them humans is the fact that they're observation and pattern finding and developing patterns and one to create more and more patterns and continuously create different mutated version of those patterns like a giant fractal geometric shape just as human beings. That is what makes you a human being in my mind. So I think that is a higher way of thinking than just escapism. But I will say that I'm coming from a situation like I said where those kinds of ideas were not shot down and I was not coming from a place of abuse or repression.

So escapism is not as important. So it's easy for me to see that. So that's what my point lies. I do think that like getting to the sophistication point gives you a richer life. I agree. But it was easier for me to get to that richer life. I just wanted to say that. Well I think that's really important too because I also don't want it to be lost. But I am probably about as opinionated of a person as you will meet. I have very specific opinions on a lot of different things. So in no way am I saying that the validity of each is that opinions are equally valid. It's just that perspectives are to be considered when looking at a particular situation. And what I would say is the root common denominator between someone who's let's just use the gear head example gear head or virtuoso is that there's some love as you refer to the love of the system in the gear head and the love of the passion of what's coming out for the virtuoso. So I think as long as we can trace it back to that there's always some common ground and there's always some root thing which usually is. We can get into this a little bit.

Unconditional love in my mind which is a very broad broad thing. But I think there's usually some common ground for all of these perspectives to be looked at or at least understood through. And that friction that you're talking about I think is also necessary like just to be clear. I mean this is something we talk about like that's that's what we're dealing with on this plane of existence. The deny it or especially try to escape that is just a recipe for disaster because that's what produces not only great art but like and I'm not I don't also I want to be very clear here. I'm not suggesting that you have to suffer greatly to produce great art.

It's just absolutely not. That's something I really want to be clear about. But that friction is what often leads to very great art. It's a catalyst. Yes. All you need to to create great art is passion and focus and observation like truthful observation like I said that's beauty truthfulness whatever you think that is. Your truth can be a different truth or spawn other truths but it's an honesty. Your honesty and pursuit of truth and pursuit of something like that is important. Like when you're even said uh uh what do you say uh about love it was uh unconditional love. Yes. Yes. I don't think that's possible but I think the pursuit of that is sure. The most noble thing people can do and it will create empathy which creates understanding which creates a more peaceful acceptance of the multitudes of reality. Do you think unconditional love is impossible as a premise or in human humanity?

I think it's it's impossible in the sense that it stops being useful at a certain point um because you need even the you need all emotional motions and judgments in a bandwidth to create beauty joy sadness all these things need to exist. Oh the spectrum of duality okay okay okay yes yeah like an unconditional love is like I said the thing you should shoot for but I don't think that we are hardwired to do it and I think I don't even believe in like really trans like uh transcendence like nirvana really really I I I only see that as like the pursuit of this is another frowerbach idea it's like it's the it's the idea that like um that like gods and any anthropological sense are really just the idealistic forms of what humans should be in the context of their culture like Jesus unconditional love all those things like in my mind probably not a real guy in the sense of like the bible right um but like the pursuit of that and the human idealization of that at that time is gorgeous beautiful so so let me give you a u-answer which is I both believe that the allegories and myths and ideals that are evoked in the bible and through Jesus are real but I also believe Jesus was a magical ascended being who had special powers so I I straddle both and this is something that especially in the Buddhist realm is constantly looked at in a lot of different ways in western Buddhists I think have a tremendous amount of anxiety over this in some ways so I'm someone who believes that when we talk about gods whether it's Thor Odin whatever whatever mythology we want to use Shiva I believe they actually exist I believe they actually exist both as mythologies in our own psyches and our human ideals and realm and I also believe there are realms of existence where these beings are actually there I'm not saying they're lording over us as the way through their portrayed in the narrative so we subscribe to but the emotions or feelings or energies of those beings if we psychologically identify with them or aware of them sometimes not even aware of them have influences on our lives this is why I think astrology not only because I think it has some forecasting ability resonates with a lot of people these planets are not just known as celestial bodies because they're above us but because they are actually known as gods and realms and this is where they live and this is what they do so I straddle this very weird place where I practically don't walk around thinking that you know Thor is going to strike me down if I disobey but I do believe that there's Thor somewhere and probably has some influence if I tap into that either archetypal or actual energy so I I think it's both like that's that's kind of where where I sit most of the time and the more I kind of am open to that idea it seems to be the case and the same thing in Buddhism like people ask about like the six you know the wheels of life you know the different layers are they actual places or you're going to go to hell is there a hell realm or you're going to be a hungry ghost realm or are they just allegories for psychological states and in speaking with I'm happy to hear that I'm not totally insane in speaking with a lot of the people who I respect in various traditions they seem to allude to the fact that most of the people who did this shit pretty fucking seriously didn't dispel that as an idea that it's not that hey it's as simple as these are just psychological realms that we can experience we're not saying that they outright exists because we don't want to freak people out and make them think we're crazy but it's worth investigating that's kind of where I fall on it personally I think you're correct I'm actually like working on a show right now that's trying to explore that exact idea not so much not so much with like deities and things like that but the man's pursuit of wanting to be attached to nature and the animal and that's somehow greater and more like an uber-mensch that's right you know like approaching deism but by way of animal as a symbol for as this thing that really exists and scares people that give some food and they are the food for and also like they see that as more attached to nature and humans and that also leads humans to believe that they are somehow different than other animals they're really not right but like but there is like that they're like if you if you won't mind me going on what will feel like a tangent no no I don't mind at all and it has to do with yetis cool okay so I was reading this book and also listening to podcast and radio shows and and and kind of research for this next show that I'm working on and then one of them was speaking with I can't write there the writer is escaping me right now but he was talking about his research and pursuit of the yeti like there's people who go out and yeah they will search for the yeti as a thing like yeah oh the the like whole like economic structures and tourism is yeah economy yeah yeah totally yeah it's that those people it's important that this thing is real right right they'll find something they will see it's like seeing Jesus in your soup or something right they'll see this thing like oh this is this thing and this it creates importance and because it creates importance for so many people even if let's say that was like let's say it from like an outsider's perspective that's like oh that's just some guy's hand with a mutation or like a or like a like a let's say or like a coyote with mange or something that's not a chupacabra of any kind yeah yeah but but but anthropologically like not anthropically yeah but like yeah anthropologically this thing exists to these people right so they perpetuate this thing that can almost be real in the sense the western sense of real you know right but and this guy went out to go this guy went out to go study the yeti and he found these prints these famous prints and he saw several of these prints that look exactly like the standing comic right right but then while he was out there he observed a common black bear going down a hill of snow and then going up the hill of snow using the same footprints to create traction as a way of adapting to the landscape so like the myth of the yeti coming from this these tremendous hominid footprints are really possibly not possibly definitely right but also this is a split perspective on reality is it was this bear a creature adapting to its surroundings to get food and create more traction in the snow by stepping in its own footprint creating an unidentifiable footprint right um just because he needs to get up this mountain in a more efficient way and then the writer just said this in passing that the mountain made the animal the environment made it possible for the existence of a yeti even though the yeti as we picture it in our mind doesn't exist but the yeti as a thing as a cultural touchstone as a way that people can feed their families as a way that creates mystery and intrigue and inspiration for art is very much a real thing and it came from the simple fact that nature can create these beautiful mysteries just by adapting to itself that is a fascinating story that's interesting for so many levels especially because it does exist right it's real for all intensive purposes for enough people which is the question is here's a real question for you do you think if enough people started believing that yetis existed we would get some verifiable proof of a yeti theoretically um i've i've i've a little bit of discomfort with that idea but i also i also can't say one way or the other this kind of that's kind of the point is like the mystery of it is is beauty and and the reason why i'm concocting is shows to answer the question or ask the question and like this is a big question everything we're saying these are all giant questions yeah the questions spawn like multiple answers that are just as valid and just as interesting so that's the point of again the artist or philosopher yeah which though not mutually exclusive at all no no they i think they're they come from the same dna but or similar dna but they uh you know they they facilitate different aspects of the academic world or you know whatever um but uh yeah so um i think these are valid and interesting questions but the question is the answer you know the question is the mystery and and the mystery is the beauty that's the cologne that's a cologne i think you just invented for people maybe what i'm just someone said it before it's i'm sure what so what other what else are you working on man like what i know you're about to get married like i know like you are doing a million things like everyone else now but i know that also you just as much as anyone else i stay aware of and plugged into their community in some respect you know i know where your singular focus is with this stuff like and i know that you're always working on this and and as you refer to it is its compulsion um so outside of the project where you're asking a very big question related to yeah cultural memes and things like that what else you got going on man okay so um well no wave is a big one and be through no way of like i design this uh large scale public art piece like permanent public art piece in downtown LA awesome uh doing these um pretty pretty interesting and i i'll keep it pretty vague because i think it's been announced but i'll just keep it vague anyways but i'm doing these designing these installations for this uh big music festival in the desert we'll just leave it at that and and uh then working on that's the elvis the the famous elvis festival in the desert right yeah i mean i can neither confirm nor deny what is and i'm not entirely sure i know what you're talking about yeah so but uh but uh so there's that there's there's there's that and then um then i'm also writing music again with my my partner um Asia or my future wife i hate using the word partner but she is very much bad to say wave my wife to say my wife uh my wife dude what kind of music do you guys make where do i really am ambient music oh that's another thing that i didn't touch on but i for a large part of my life when i was in doing fine art i was composing music for commercials and i was really several albums on record labels out here and i had a whole different life with that musician next episode we're going to delve into that but will you at least link me personally to what some of your stuff or direct me in the right direction and then we can maybe share some of it too oh yeah sure no problem at all awesome yeah dude yeah first of all i easily i have a feeling that we could probably talk for like two days straight pretty pretty fucking easily but i i want to wrap it up here with my last few questions and just dude thanks so much for coming on too i just oh it's honor i appreciate it so what is your favorite color uh all of them good i was i knew in my head before i knew in my head before i asked what you were going to say but but that being said i will say the most underrated color or idea of a color is i think the most complex and overlooked color is gray because within gray there's every single kind of color in hue so you have warm grays you have subtle purpley grays you have subtle like uh cool grays you have grays that make you feel a totally different way than another gray but it's still gray gray doesn't need to be like an unhappy color gray in itself is the most complex color or hue or however you want or shade however you want to see it it's all those things i love it um and i and that's why and i use shades of gray and and a lot of my work because i find it to be the most complex and beautiful um i guess fucking gray is my favorite color yay you're also the first person to say gray i'm almost positive the first person to say gray which is pretty cool uh that's why it's underrated there you go it's been 130 something of these things uh what is your favorite number uh we'll have a favorite series of number that works uh i like well i have a uh affinity for the Fibonacci sequence only because i would say it as a way to calm myself down and keep my brain tight before conversations i would just start reciting it that's super interesting yeah it's it's well it's just like a it's like a little puzzle that you can i never memorize it i don't attempt to memorize it i just use the sequence it's like to set it one one yeah two three five all you know all like just and keep going because it it focuses your mind really quickly that's probably the basis for most of what we experience as well so it doesn't hurt the area yeah it's also a good symbol if you were to pick out of the Fibonacci sequence your favorite number in it what would it be uh i can't do it man can't do it maybe you could say like eight or like eight because if you turn it sideways infinity there you go untwisted it's it's a circle or a zero so i'm going to drag every every answer out of you that i thought we did what is your favorite animal um fuck man i've had so many in my life god damn it humans humans is a great answer dude i think you've given two i mean people have said eight i hate to break it to you but all gray and human are definitely book ending to the two unique answers i heard after these dude Justin oh cool amazing thank you so much for doing this dude is there anything before we go where can people find out more about you i'll have links to everything in the episode and all of that but just if people wanted to get the quick download where where should they find you oh you can look at no wave on instagram you can look up my my personal stuff is rare bit ultra spell no wave spell no way for people no wave is n-o-h w-a-v-e and you can also go to no wave dot c-o uh low collective online and it my right released a bunch of albums through uh non-projects under alpha pup in los andros as uh rare bit so that's where that comes from awesome dude thank you so much thank you man love to you and your wife to be tell her she should come on sometime i know we haven't met but she seems like someone would be good for this show oh she'd blow your mind she's incredible super excited all right buddy we'll talk soon all right thanks man all right peace so so thanks for listening to that episode big shout out to Justin and no wave and Yoshino and everything they're doing out in LA i i have a feeling we're gonna be doing another event um i don't know if i'm gonna brand it specifically as a mind wave but we're gonna be doing something cool out there i can guarantee that um and what else uh thank you to patrick nam check right thank you dude you're the best and you continue to be the best just a fun patron if you want to contribute on patreon there will be more music coming out if you're at the nine dollar level i think that's the music level uh this drum machine is going wonderfully lots of fun having some space in may getting back to the EP Dustin the old EP off i have three tracks finished i mean it's not like nothing i could release them but uh i maybe just we'll turn it into something else so we'll see what's going on uh that's it that's it lots of love to you all and i will see you next week with a guest bye