Symbols, Balance and The Paranormal with Jim Perry

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Yes, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity. Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week is Jim Perry, Jim is the creator and host of the Yuffamet podcast. Also now, ongoing if you go to the feed, the podcast feed, you'll see Obscura, which is a look back and kind of a deeper dive into episodes of the first kind of incarnation of Yuffamet. So I highly recommend if you want to get a sense of the actual show from the earlier incarnation, go to the Patreon episode of the most recent podcast, there'll be links to all this stuff, and listen to this really well put together thing about these Kentucky goblins, which freaked me out for a solid hour before I spoke to Jim.

Really fun conversation with Jim, I love people who are able to translate their interests in, I don't want to say fringe stuff, but things that aren't widely presented as a regular part of our day-to-day lives, so whether that's paranormal, mystical experiences, psychedelic experiences, as you know, I bring up a lot. I love people who have found a way to kind of incorporate this into their lives and weave stories and put together really competent pieces of media and art for people. And Jim just does a tremendous job of that, and let's be clear, Jim is a podcast, right? But Jim's podcast, compared to my podcast, are two completely different things.

I call his kind of like the paranormal NPR, it's really well produced on the scene kind of documentarian narrative weaving awesomeness, where my podcast is, talk to someone for an hour, they go to them, they go to me, we do it on Skype, it's pretty easy. I put in some music, yak for a little bit, and that's my podcast. So I really appreciate people who are treating the endless medium of podcasting, whatever that means, and really doing special things with it. And one of my favorite things about this conversation is we kind of touch on this theme that all of these weird activities, whether it's aliens, or ghosts, or vampires, still haven't listened to the vampire episode, we're going to listen to that this weekend, real life vampires, whether it's really UFOs, there seems to be some common thread behind these phenomena.

One book which legitimately freaked the hell out of me is The Super Normal by Whitley Striber and fuck, I'll have it in the outro, I'll have the other guy's name, he's a professor at a college, a really, really cool guy in his own right, and basically it kind of teases out this idea that all of these phenomena are us, or individuals, or people, or collectives interacting with something that's below, or just a little bit separate from our consensus reality, and how that kind of manifests and reacts, and how we react to it creates these various phenomena. So whether that thing is actually happening, or true in the classic sense that everyone is aware of it, somewhat becomes moot at that point if we treat these phenomena as actual kind of interactions between subject and object, or some aspect of your consciousness, and some other aspect outside of it.

So what's really cool about this is he's going to these places with a production crew and meeting all of these really interesting people, and the key there is the people. It's very, everyone can know someone who's had a paranormal experience, but you'll find that what's so compelling about it is the person's relationship to what happened. Their visceral impact, how they're relating, you know, what happened and what they witnessed. That's what sticks with you more than the actual kind of phenomena. So that's something that Jim's been privy to for doing this for a few years, and he's just a really interesting and entertaining guy and just very pleasant to speak to.

And also we touch on kind of the more meta aspects of like how do you balance this stuff if you're interested in paranormal stuff, or mysticism, all of this, of how do you balance it with your quote unquote mundane life, you know, for your spouses or significant others or family and friends who don't necessarily want to hear you talk about goblins all of the time, how do you find that balance between what's going on? And we kind of delve into that. There's no real answers, right? I mean, what can you say? People figure it out. I think it's a process. I think, at least in my case, I offer some personal anecdotes and, you know, experiences that help me, you know, find a comfortable balance with the transcendent and the mundane, but you know, who knows, it's an ongoing relationship.

But I do think that if you have an interest in any of this stuff, trying to find that balance, trying to find the harmony between responsibilities, real world, kind of what we live in and maintaining a convex connection to the divine or mysterious, whatever you want to call it, is a, it's like, it's a really cool thing to try to focus on in life. I think it's important. So we go into that, uh, that's, that's basically what else I have to talk about the whole episode or give it away. It'll be as long as the episodes. It's not what we're doing. It's not a solo podcast. No. What are you're doing? Uh, Game of Thrones, Song of Ice and Fire, been listening on audiobook.

I don't have an audible link. So this isn't a pitch to go get audible, but, uh, Roy Dautry's, uh, he passed away recently, uh, reads these books by George RR Martin. Holy shit, they're fucking good. I'd, I'd like to get, if you haven't noticed, I like to get my money's worth with audible. So I get the books that are like $60, like 48 hours long. Uh, I like to get my money's worth on my credit, a $15 credit. So, but man, these are really fantastic books. So go ahead and get those because it makes your life more crazy, not crazy, but you start thinking like Game of Thrones, like, and in the language and the high, high English and all the cool stuff.

So go check that. If you want one other recommendation on Netflix, bumping mics, Jeffrey Ross, David tell really solid comedy special. It kind of just is like these guys are legends and also just, they seem like really, really nice people. Fundamentally. So go check that out. David telling Jeffrey Ross are just great people. Uh, also Jeffrey Ross has a good podcast, Nick Skin. Go check that out. Check everything out. Well, I'm enjoying consuming a lot of media. Uh, that's it. Let's get to the episode. How about that? You for met is Jim Perry's podcast. Please go check that out. If you like interesting and cool things really well produced, really, really, really a cut above without further ado, here is Jim Perry.

Jim, how you doing? Very good. Good to talk to you again, my friend. Yeah. Likewise, I, uh, I saw that you had extra coffee. Uh, I am from Twitter. I, uh, I microdosed this morning. So a similar thing. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, dude, I've been listening. FYI, this, this starts recording as soon as you pick up, but I obviously can edit out. I just let people know because of this recording. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I've been going through Obscura and Yufamet and just kind of what you have been doing. Uh, dude, it's so fucking, um, I, you know, I listened before when Jen initially made the, uh, the intro, but I didn't do a deep dive.

And so I've been doing a deep dive this, uh, over the weekend and this weekend. Really awesome stuff, man. It's like, so it's like, uh, how would I describe it? Like paranormal NPR. It's fucking amazing, but it's so good. Uh, so dude, amazing. Good job. Well, thank you. Thanks. You know, I've listened to your show for a while and I want to just get all this, uh, mutual appreciation shit out of the way and first off that, you know, honestly, if I can be 100% transparent, I'm a little nervous with you on here. You'd speak with some very, some very sophisticated folks that are, are so much more eloquent than I am in terms of, uh, putting across their messaging and getting their point across and, uh, you know, a little extra coffee I'm hoping is going to kind of glide me into this conversation with ease, but, um, it's interesting, someone was asking me about your show the other day and I was commenting about how, you know, you're kind of like a perfect guy to have at a party because you have this, you have this strange ability to be able to, um, like casually lead people into some very deep, dark places without them even knowing.

You know, it's funny you mentioned that. I mean, it, it obviously is something I'm somewhat aware of. It's just, you know what it is more than anything, dude? It's just how I am, like there, I, I really do, I think I owe psychedelics a lot of the credit for this because I took them when I was young, when I was an adolescent and I took LSD when I was like 15, your mind isn't fully formed. And I spoken about this a little bit most recently with the psychiatrist I am the show. Uh, I don't think I had time to crystallize like, I solid identities when people were, you know, initially trying them on like in high school and middle school and things like that.

So like this is just kind of how I am. Like there's no, like if I'm not on a podcast, I'm the exact same way at the office. You know, I can modulate it so we can get shit done and I can be a normal person and a family and a friend, but like, you know, it's just kind of how I am. And that, I think I naturally am inclined to be interested in a lot of the things that I think you're interested in, which is like shit that people aren't really talking about, but we all kind of have these weird experiences with. And I just find that so compelling and interesting, it's like, how can you not investigate it, you know?

Yeah. And I can see that about you. I can see you being the same way, you know, offline as you are on. And it's interesting. I've got a question for you, how does that affect your, how does that affect your personal life in terms of general social interaction? Do you ever find yourself maybe not being as captivated with sort of the social here and there that we are accompanied with as being adults and having spouses and having friends that may not share the same interests? You know, it's a really good question. And I think like most things in life, it kind of ebbs and flows. And I think you kind of learn, or at least I have how to ride out kind of what we would refer to more is like the mundane aspects of reality and appreciate those and kind of the grounding they can provide that's useful at times that in my younger years and kind of more, you know, push the boundaries, let's go as far out as we possibly can.

I probably could have benefited from more grounding. So I don't know, like I really do find it, it's a balancing act, but it's one that I don't have to be completely conscious of because I am very comfortable being a quote unquote regular guy in like the United States of America in the year 2019. But I also like, as you know, like on the flip of a really very quickly, I can be deeply into like, I question the nature of reality at its most fundamental level. Right. So it's like, it's, you don't, I've also had the benefit of going too far to the paranormal world and sharing it to cavalier, you know, in a cavalier manner with everyone and anyone.

And I saw what that did to kind of relationships and people's, you know, ability to process or willingness to hear that. So, you know, for me, I'm lucky, like, because I am the way I am, like people will learn quickly whether they like me or just one thing to do. So the relationship sort themself out in terms of being bored, not really man, like I, you know, unless it's like clothing or going shopping for clothing, like I'm pretty much interested in most things. So like, even if it seems mundane, like I recognize it has a connection to something much more profound and, and deeper than we realize.

So long answer to a good question. Well, that's, I mean, that's great. I mean, I think that's the balance. You know, I talk to a lot of folks in the paranormal field, even, even keeled researchers and investigators that, you know, we put a lot of emphasis on one foot in and one foot out. But I'll tell you what, man, that's something that I, I battle with every day. Like, not only being involved in the podcast, but being an entrepreneur, being a producer, being a creative, you know, it's a constant battle with myself to give enough of myself to family and friends to, to really open up my heart and, and be present in situations because, you know, right now I'm working on so many projects at the same time and they're off.

I have the distinct allowance and freedom and privilege to be able to focus on this stuff full time and not have to worry about a bunch of a bunch of my new bullshit. Yeah. That's a good thing and a bad thing, right? Because when my wife comes home at, you know, four in the afternoon and is like, hey, what have you done today? Oh, well, I've been, you know, researching the CIA in 1947 UFO cover up and I would like to go and research that more. Wait, I can't. I have to be a human. It's hard, man. And this is funny. It's funny you bring this up because I was literally, as I was listening to, it was the most recent, it was the Patreon episode where you're playing a clip of the original series you've met with the Kentucky goblins and as I was listening to this, I'm obviously captivated by the story itself and quickly going down the wormhole and like googling and reading along the emails about this weird shit.

I'm thinking in my head, like I bet it is so easy to get sucked into these vortexes that this is kind of all you want to do. And I remember distinctly early days in college when I was at a music school, picking a lot of like it though, it's at a musical, just like totally what is the world, right? Getting sucked into a lot of very, not paranormal stuff, but like conspiracy things. And I remember how it just, it was like an itch that you were scratching and it was just so compulsive for me, at least in terms of like the attraction to it. And I was wondering myself, like, well, what happened? Like how did I, you know, come out the other side and now have, you know, I don't feel the pull so much.

Sometimes I have to rekindle that fire actively to feel it and, and is that bad or is that good? Here's what I really think. This has just been based on my own personal experience is you kind of just, you do, you have to go with the flow, right? Like I think one of your guests who said that the guy who was going to jump into the vortex and it didn't happen and he used this analogy of the river and kind of flowing down it. Like it's hard for us to do that. I think is people, especially in a culture that doesn't kind of engender. That's the right mentality. Like we have rules and systems and we're supposed to follow and go through these tracks and take care of these responsibilities that sometimes when you just surrender, not in a full hardy way, but just kind of like give in and explore things and, and, you know, have some beacon of like, I don't want to destroy myself and my relationships and the people around me as you're like kind of post in the ground.

You know, when you find yourself completely attracted and passionate about projects, I just say go for it, you know, and, and there has to be some level of discretion and just kind of discernment is probably the right word for it. Like you don't want to just like whenever you're feeling something, just immediately do it. But to recognize that you're in that place and are attracted to these things, I think, you know, weave it into your life as much as possible. I have a wife who, you know, also truthfully, she doesn't want to hear about any of this stuff most of the time, you know, like she just doesn't, you know, she's my wife.

She knows me as me. She doesn't give a shit about, you know, weird psychic phenomena and hallucinations and paranormal. She just doesn't. That's just her. And it's great. And, you know, I find that that balancing and kind of groundedness keeps me more honest and balanced and it's kind of like that harmony is what I've learned to appreciate kind of as I've moved morning to the traditional householder and father and this whole traditional role. But yeah, man, I don't know because I weigh this also against like what you're doing, like what you're putting together is a cut above. Like this is multimedia engaging.

It really is. It truly is. I mean, as I'm sure you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts. I mean, not so I know we're going into our own fun rabbit hole about how do we manage our lives, but like how did you, what's your background, I mean, I only know so much about you. Like how did you get to the point we were producing these really well thought out and narrated kind of pieces on paranormal activities, a whole range of things. How did that happen? What was that evolution? Well, when I was growing up, I was always interested in the stuff, whether it was listening to Art Bell every night or watching reruns of in search of, I was, I was compelled and I was really informed by my environment as well.

I mean, being in the Pacific Northwest, it's a very spooky place and so many of these, so many of the American paranormal lore was all based up here. And so it was compelling to me and I would lose myself in books and, you know, radio interviews and everything else just to feel closer to that subject material because it felt like something bigger was happening. In addition to that, I was surrounded by a family that seemed to encounter paranormal activity. For example, it was very routine that my mom would pick up the phone and just start talking to my grandma because they wouldn't have to wait for the phone to ring to know that each other was calling.

And that was common, that was a very common place and even that was like, hey, something else is happening here, you know, very, very strange, so a lot of that was a given. I took a lot of it for granted and I became a creative professional eventually after doing band stuff and, you know, just spending my wheels and messing around. I entered into the agency world and so spending almost a decade, you know, working my way up to creative director and managing projects, creative projects for super huge band brands, you know, I became disillusioned as it tends to happen. So, you know, it very, everything in my body was, you know, I was having major anxiety attacks based off just the position that I placed myself in and the money and the golden pencil awards and the TV and all this different stuff like didn't seem to be worth it anymore at all.

And every part of my being was trying to tell me that. And so I said, okay, well, I'm not going to completely jump off the cliff right now metaphorically in terms of just quitting my job and here we go. But let me start, let me start dabbling into some of the interests that I have. And that's when you from that began. That's when the original series of you from that started in, I think it was like the end of 2014 or the very first of 2015, I started you from that. And it was just an interview show and I would weave in some documentary audio projects when I had the time or when I could afford to produce them.

And it started to open something up in me. And it started to, that world, that reality started to really welcome me in ways which were comforting and challenging and made me feel good about myself and what I was actually doing. And so eventually as that started to go through, I eventually quit my job, I just left, I did the shitty thing where I didn't even, I gave my notice and then I just walked, I couldn't even handle being there for two more weeks and doing one more campaign for somebody who didn't care what you were doing and that the intent was so wrong. And so that being said, I still do some freelance because we do have to pay the bills, right?

But I essentially was able to shift my life into the passions that I have and the things that were just so much more aligned with what my being was. And I was lucky enough to go through the trenches doing really high level marketing work for a decade that I was able to have that skill set that I can actually produce and execute these things finally. I wasn't able to for a long time. We all know how that is, like when you're in your 20s, you think, am I not just awesome yet? Yeah. And you have to, you have to take time and you have to fail a lot and, but I was, I've never been afraid to just kind of go for it and, and I'm not afraid of failure when it comes to this kind of stuff.

I'm driven to try to execute and, and I think Uphamet just became a, a manifestation of that. And I, I just like couldn't, I couldn't be happier for the listeners that the relationship with listeners that I've developed and the people that I feature now and work with on a day to day basis. I live a completely different life than I did, even, you know, two or three years ago because of this. Yeah. And I mean, what's so cool about it too, and it shines through in, in every episode, truthfully and obscure too, is that you really highlight kind of the mystery, not only of these phenomena and kind of events that are taking around, but, but the people themselves, the way you're able to kind of like, one of my favorite authors, and this is big praise if you, if you know who I am, I'm a huge Ron Chernau fan.

He's a biographer, did Hamilton, Washington, Rockefeller, he's incredible. He's going to be speaking at the White House Correspondent's dinner coming up. It's a big controversy because he's usually a comedian, but he's an incredible writer. The reason I love him so much is he reveals characters who we think about and kind of statuesque rigid ways and presents them in a very honest and compelling portrayal of like a person, an actual human being that you can learn from the inside out. And that's the same feeling I get with your podcasts, and you from that, and Obscura, is that you're really getting a sense of these people, and they're not long episodes.

Just to be clear, like my podcast is usually longer, twice length of a lot of these things, but you pull out, you know, using music, using the narration, using abrupt scene changes with audio. It really just evokes a very kind of magical quality. I guess that's the word I'm looking for. And I know from doing a fuckload of podcast episodes and listening to a lot of podcasts, that that's hard to do. That's not something that, like you said, it does require failing and learning a shitload to be able to produce something like that. So I'm glad to hear that it's fulfilling for you too, and not just kind of like, "This is what I have to do because I'm good at it," and, you know, "This is what I've decided,"

but I can genuinely sense the fulfillment when you're talking about that shift into doing this stuff. I mean, talk a little bit more, I'm interested about some of the phenomena that you maybe took for granted when you were growing up, because we all have our family stories about those types of things. I love the kind of precognition from your parents, but like, were there ghosts? Were there aliens? Were there magic? What was going on? You know, there weren't really ghost or aliens, you know, my grandfather had a lot of alleged sightings himself in terms of Sasquatch and UFOs and things of that nature, but he was also, he was a storyteller.

He had this story, actually, he was a logger in the Pacific Northwest, and he spent most of his career working for logging in companies and for mills, and, you know, was out in the deep forest most of his life, and, you know, he had this story about encountering a bear at one point, this bear attacking him, him getting himself free by chopping off the bears, one of the bear's paws, and this bear would continue to follow him from that day on, like some sort of hunting specter, and bear named three legs, was built up in me and my younger brother's mind to be just this, this epic, you know, sort of beast that was always just hanging over my grandfather's head, in fact, you know, you know, I have no tattoos at this point, but when I finally, by the bullet and start getting some, I think, a paw, you know, a disembodied paw, a goat bear of sorts, is like maybe the first thing out yet, because that, you know, he was a, he was a, he was a real Joseph Campbell, he didn't even know it, you know, some of the archives that you would throw at, some of the more that he would stimulate, helped engage a curiosity and wonder for what was out there, I think, and you know, on top of that, on the other side, my grandfather on my father's side was a preacher, and had his own church and congregation, and they were speaking in tongues, you know, and to see that at a very early age, and not be a part of their system per se, I wouldn't claim that I was, as a kid, ever really a Christian kid, I didn't go to church regularly, but to eavesdrop in on that, to go in there and see, hey, you know, Rondo over there, man, she's really dealing with a relationship right now, yes, yes, what is going on there, it was frightening, but also insightful in terms of what belief was, and how it affects folks in what lengths people are able to bend their own sort of like popular belief in reality to suit kind of their beliefs, what's motivating them, so I think that was, I don't know, I think that made a bigger impact on me than I usually been gave a credit for.

Yeah, well, I mean, what you're talking about is kind of the malleability of reality, and it's funny you mentioned the tongues thing, I just met with someone recently, and she grew up in a tradition of people were talking in tongues, and she's very grounded, not like weird about it at all, is not agnostic believes in God, but you know, isn't full sale agreeing with everything she grew up with with her specific church, but the tongues stuff she was talking about, she's like, no, like it was like, it seemed pretty real, like this was, there was some phenomena taking place, and of course, if you go through anthropoid, you know, anthropoid, just looking at this stuff, Joseph Campbell has identified this too, this is a form of shamanic communication, which is identifiable across all cultures, like it's not that weird.

Something is happening there, and how could that not affect you growing up or witnessing it at any point with any form of regularity, just because like, something is taking place there, you know, what that is, and what lens we want to look at it through, determines what answer we get, but I mean, confronting kind of, or seeing how beliefs can shape, you know, behaviors and kind of mindsets is very, that's, how could that not have an impact on you as a young kid, right, I mean, geez, man, so one thing I'm really interested in relating to your show also is, what, what are your takeaways after going through each of these kind of stories and experiences, when you've actually, as you put it, it boots on the ground, like, what, what is it like, is it like stacking kind of books up chapters of like a, a long continuous experience, or certain truths revealed to you, what are the themes you kind of witness doing this, because that, that's what I find so interesting about it, from a medical, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too, and it's something that, that I honestly grapple with internally, almost every day, because there's, there's like very real consequences for being on a trip like this, that if you're not prepared for, you, you can kind of like, go too far.

Oh, totally. So, so it's something I consider, I think my takeaways right now, first of all, I don't know what I believe anymore. I have no idea what that is. That's good. Yeah. Lucky you. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, you know, I, you know, I visited Chapel Perilis, you know, this, this is Robert Anton Wilson, we'll talk about, um, and a lot of these greats, man, like what I'm experiencing right now with my, you know, this, this sort of, uh, questioning what I really believe is, is not too dissimilar from, from a lot of these writers and, and, and thought leaders, uh, in this movement. And so I do feel like I'm in a, a, a privileged space right now where I can, where I can meander in that world.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, but certainly, and I also, my other takeaway is that perhaps all of this is related, all of this is the same thing. Um, you know, to me, it, it feels the phenomenon that I encountered this, this very disparate phenomenon, you know, from Sasquatch communication to Vampirism to haunted statues to vortexes. You know, there, there's an element of the relationship that these disparate phenomenons have with the beholder. Yes. Very similar. Yes. Very similar. And so to me, my takeaway is that through out doing these tapings for season one, you know, there'd be times I would be out on the road for three weeks at a time traveling and, and doing these tapings, just going from one feature to the next.

And it never felt like I was getting into a territory that was too dissimilar for, from what I had left. Right. Right. It was really interesting to me. I, I felt like, you know, and I was worried about encountering energies that I've never really dealt with before. And you know, there's a part of my, the part of my brain that's just like, feels it's kind of fun to like think about, well, should I maybe protect myself, maybe I'll ask my shaman friend what, yeah, yeah, I don't know what I, what I feel or believe about that. But it, it was fun to think about things in that terms. And there were times where I was like, okay, well, I may get into a situation where I've never encountered this type of energy when I was in New Orleans.

Yeah. I was encountering Vampiric and voodoo energy. Yes. And I was like, oh shit, like what am I getting into here? How am I, how am I going to deal with this? I was my physical body, I was my physiology going to deal with this event. And you know, it didn't, like, honestly, it felt like everything else. And there's a part of that that I hope that's not me being, becoming out of tune with the phenomenon and what the, you know, I doubt that, yeah, I would doubt that would be what's going on. Anything, it sounds kind of more, and I'm glad you're not rushing and jumping to conclusions on it, but it sounds like kind of confirmation that there is a deep connection between all of these seemingly disparate phenomena, which is again, at this point, because we've had so much time to reflect on this culturally, you know, an emerging opinion, right?

The connection between UFOs and, you know, paranormal, other paranormal phenomena are, could be, have been postulated to be completely connected. There's a famous interview, and I'd take everything Terence McKenna says with a grain of salt because he was just a whimsical type of fellow who wasn't necessarily planning out all of these ideas he had, but where he was basically saying that, you know, the psychedelic state and UFOs and ghosts were all the same phenomena just being experienced differently by people based on context, you know, psychology and mythology, all of these things kind of cropping up in different ways, to me, that makes a lot of sense, right?

I mean, that's, this is a universal experience, a lot of the things you're investigating, whether it's vampires or aliens or goblins, you know, these are things that are throughout our fairy tales and lore are populated with this type of activity. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Timothy Leary is another example of someone that was on that same bead with Terence McKenna that the further they got into this, the more similar this phenomenon felt, you know, and I think there's something, I think there's something reflective about the nature of this and how those experience it, I think it's reflective as to, to something about those experiences, you know, and what that is, is really interesting to me.

And, and maybe it's something we'll never find out, maybe it's something we're not meant to find out, but whatever the case, I feel that there's a truth in those relationships. There's a truth in those experiences, whether it's a truth that fits into our popular belief of what consciousness or reality is, like who's to say, but that, that humanistic quality, and, and you know, maybe this is a little like, I, I kind of dig on some non dualism, you know, what, what ego and what our individual selves feel about this phenomenon is very, very fascinating to me, because you, I believe you can't ever take the human element out of that.

No. You can't. And I also love my non dualism, one of my kind of first journeys into the esoteric around phenomena I was experiencing, I got very attracted to Advaita Vedanta and kind of the, the kind of non dual theory of the Vedic mythology, which is, yes, this is kind of the underlying structure of everything is non duality, but the interplay of us recognizing we live in a dualistic universe, at least from what we can observe and that non duality is where I think these phenomena tend to crop up. And I'm always, you kind of keyed on something that I don't think I ever really was conscious of, is what interests me so much about all of these experiences and stories is the felt human connection that that person has to what they're telling, you know, it's, it's kind of like you can tell when someone's just, you know, yakking about a yarn and weave in this tale that's not really grounded in reality, but maybe it's entertaining as opposed to the person who has really seen something or had this experience and is conveying that with their entire heart and soul.

And that I think is kind of this common denominator that I think is weave between these things. I mean, have you left any one kind of, because you're doing, you're immersing yourself with us in this for weeks at a time, right? I mean, what, what's the typical kind of like process for you putting together an episode of any of this? I'm fascinated by this because it's so, so well done. Oh, that's a great, that's a great question. I mean, I'm really looking for stories of transformation. I'm really looking for characters, you know, I'm paying attention to archetypes. I'm paying attention to folks that maybe have some sort of stereotype attribute to them, that maybe a human centric story would reveal something much deeper.

But really for me, what is the heart, the most challenging and the easiest part of producing you from that is that the stories really need to be about the person and not the phenomenon. And it's so often that, you know, I'll get a lot of emails and great insight into historically haunted places or, you know, this UFO sighting, but things of this nature. But it's, you know, it's the experience, it's the sighting, it's the phenomenon itself, and it misses that human transformation element, right? So that's really the most important part is finding those folks. And I find features through a myriad of reasons, like ways of digesting a lot of different podcasts and books and interviews.

You know, I've been listening and a fan on the sideline of this since I was, I don't know, since like 1991 or something, you know, you listen to the little kids. So there are names, there are events, there are lines of thought. There are topics that I'm familiar with just being a fan that I have pre-awareness with and, you know, unlike maybe if I were some, you know, sort of television producer that is just jumping into the show. Yeah, having to go back and find out what's, yes, yes, yes, yes. I have a, I have forgotten more, I think, about paranormal than I, that I could ever even remember, you know, so, and that's not to put, that's just being like sort of an obsessive fan about it at some point.

Yes, yes, yes. I think that's not to put myself on a pedestal, but I do have that pre-awareness. The other thing that is very interesting to me are telling stories that are so unbelievable that perhaps there's no way I could provide any sort of authentication or proof that the human side of that story makes it all worth it, makes it all not matter. And I did an episode with Ryan Singer about a situation he had or a relationship he had with an apparent shapeshifter. Right. And that's a story I haven't really heard much, especially in terms of paranormal talk and especially in terms of public radio diary, something I've heard on this American life or radio live.

Yeah, I haven't heard that episode yet. Yeah. Those stories that really captivate me too, I want folks to listen to Yufamet and start to believe in magic with a K. Right. And to feel like there's possibilities that are unbelievable, that are fantastical, that are closer to fiction, than perhaps maybe makes you comfortable. Right. And that's what I'm looking to do. So, and then on top of that, you know, I look at as an opportunity to travel and have fun, you know, above a lot of things too. It's like, oh, I have, you know, let me go do an episode with my friend Tim over in New York and we'll figure something out or, you know, let's, I've always wanted to go to New Orleans.

What is a story there? What is a character? You can find something. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it helps just like, sort of narrow down what some of your stories are too, which is very helpful because this world is a very strange place. Yeah. And I mean, also like the intuitive aspect of what potentially is bringing you to these places, I'm sure you reflect on when you're actually there too, because in some ways it must feel that you're being drawn to certain energies or people or narratives. And that I think is this other kind of cool layer about it. But I love that you identified this, this human centric element.

And that's kind of the magic of it because to me, that's always the magic of all of these things. I had an audio book. I don't know what, which it was and it's good because I don't want to disparage an author by name, but it was just, it was basically just all of these. I'm not super into UFOs, like I've never seen one. I know people who have had intense experience, who I have no reason to doubt what they're doing. I believe that the odds are they exist, but I haven't had any personal experience, but from time to time, I'll brush up against some stories and I'll get a little interested. So I downloaded an audio book and it was terrible.

And the reason it was terrible is not because I thought anyone was making anything up. It was so scientifically and observationally recorded, like at 11.15 AM, this little object. And I was like, this sucks. I was like, this is super fucking boring. Like, I would have loved to hear the farmer and his son describe this story, like in their own words, but the narrator just reading me off the printout of things, like it holds no interest for me. At the time, I was just shitty, but now hearing you speak about what you try to center the crux of these episodes about, it makes a lot of sense that that would be the thing that's compelling.

Yeah, it's really interesting because it's something that I have to battle against a little bit. At first I did. When I first started U from that, there was this sort of internal battle between what is going to be an acceptable format for this audience until I realized, well, I'm going to find and create my own audience. And these are folks that are not going to want to know that 11.16 AM is when Farmer John went and got coffee, because no one should care about that. It doesn't matter. I mean, you can't transcribe a document that you got from the FBI and feel like that's readable, and that's a narrative that people want to follow.

So a lot of this isn't, and what's interesting is, to go back for a second, you're right in that the deeper I get into this work, the more I do feel I'm being led, and it is based off intuition and it's based off synchronicity and it's based off symbols and signs, seemingly, it point me in certain directions and I feel like it's sort of helping me along the way. There's also things that happen in terms of, perhaps the reflexive and/or reflective nature of time. Yes, yes. I'm sort of revealing or discovering through research. Oh, yeah. That's quite the topic, my friend. I mean, I've had extended sojourns into, you know, Weirdville in my life that I've really seen that the notion of time get flipped on its head.

I didn't time travel or anything to the best of my knowledge, but yeah, we know again, like every hippie will tell you who's smoked DMT once or twice that, you know, the quantum level time doesn't work the same way. This is an observable phenomenon. We know that it can flow backward at very small microscopic levels. I think that this is something that is becoming more generally discussed and kind of accepted as a notion and I think the interplay between our own kind of psyche subconscious and unconscious and the world we perceive as other and out there, we know kind of intuitively this is just like a trick, like it's like a parlor trick that is being projected in front of our screens.

It's hard to, we couldn't function in our culture or society at all if we just totally gave way to that notion. We would just be like, oh my God, what is going on? Like if you ever seen someone in the throes of a psychedelic experience, like that's kind of what it's like, right? But we know this is taking place and I think the reason that it feels like synchronicities and chapel perilous and all this stuff is very much related in cosmic control centers, Robert Anton Wilson puts it is when you kind of like poke beneath it, it's an active energy and it will talk back to you and I think this is our unconscious that we can't, as to the best of our ability, I can microdose, I can take other things, I can meditate, I can get little peaks of what's going on below the surface of our conscious mind, but you can't totally be there for extended periods of time because if you are, you lose your relationship to consensus reality and then you are ineffective at communicating it, the only glimpses I have and the only reason I talk about this stuff the way I do is because I was fortunate enough to like basically go into the throes of this state for extended periods of time from months at a time, basically being the depths of what most people would say is psychosis or madness, but then pull myself out of it through the aid of family and friends and just, you know, face, more than anything else and then actively speak about it in a way that isn't completely discombobulated and insane, so I very much know that this is an active process and I think as people experience paranormal phenomena, synchronicities, things that are magical, inexplicable, sometimes visceral and feeling and palpable for some people, you know, you begin to open up to this idea that this is actually what's going on, then depending on who you are, the trick and be is like, how much do you engage with that?

Do you want to go completely off the, you know, do you just want to go and like turn into the person who just lets go and lives in that river of, you know, divine, whatever? If so, buckle up because it's going to be fucking crazy, like, that's like, you can do it, but like, it's crazy and I think for most people, what it feels like to me, where I don't know how we got on this tangent, but I love it, is we basically, I feel like we're in a transitional period where what we know is consensus reality is slowly kind of being stripped away for everyone, not just the people who take psychedelics, not just the people who have had weird paranormal experiences, not just the people with the grandmothers who knew things and were psychic and all this stuff, but for everyone and depending on where you are in terms of your open-mindedness and accepting that we don't really know that much, that is either going to be a very cool and exciting, maybe a little scary, to absolutely terrifying what the fuck is going on, everything around me is broken, you know, there's a apocalyptic scenario I'm playing and I think we're seeing this happen in culture every single day and people are kind of dealing with it, which is, again, just to bring it back to where we are in this conversation, like, I love that you're able to kind of like produce these beautiful morsels of digestible kind of exposition of this stuff, do you know what I mean, like, I know you're aware of it and I'm sure you think about it sometimes, but I mean, that's what you're doing, that's the beacon, that's the signal you're putting out and I think when that's amplified over time, you know, that's where we can actually start making positive change with these notions and ideas that maybe there's something else going on and what the practical implications of that might be, so. I hope so and I mean, thank you, thank you so much for the kind words, I mean, I hope that, you know, the show is chipping away at some of that and, you know, that's, that's sort of, I feel like, sort of all you can do. Yeah, right? You know, anything more forceful would seem of a scene. That's how I feel. I mean, right? I, people do it, you and I both know it, right? I mean, people, people take these notions and cons, it's how do you let the thing live, right? Like, like, even just the way I heard you talk about, like, of course, I still do freelancing it, like, yeah, I do console think gigs too, because I have to pay the bills, I have a family and all of that, but it points to something that's like, how do you honor the truth of a situation?

We're saying, of course, we have to do these things sometimes we don't ethically feel are the most exciting or really what we want to be doing, but this is the system we're in, which to me always points to someone who is really trying to present things as they are. And as they are, isn't always, you know, the path to upward mobility and success as people care about or exposure, if that's what we're talking about. So then it does come back to what you're describing, which is you do what you can, man, right? Like you do what excites you, what fulfills you, what lets you carve out your niche to amplify things that you think will help other people. And, you know, it's weird to end up having these conversations about a podcast about paranormal stuff, but it really is, it's, it's such a, it's such a different vibe I get from what you're doing than a lot of the other things I hear. I mean, do you know, I mean, I know you know, because you're listening to coast to coast for a long time too. I mean, yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. I, yeah, I get, I mean, that's, that's totally on purpose, you know, and not to discredit any anyone that has a paranormal show right now. I think there's still really great work going on, but it's, it's perhaps for a different audience, you know, or no, it is for a different audience. Yeah. I think what's interesting about talking to and engaging with the folks that listen to you from that is that these are folks that typically maybe not, they might not listen to a lot of different paranormal podcasts. Right, right. You might not watch ghost hunting TV shows. And if they do, they're maybe online web series format with some folks that are trying to do it in a different way.

And it goes back to what you're saying is, as presenting things as they are, because things as they are are as exciting and as weird as anything that's out there. Yeah. And it's also more complex. It's, it's grittier. It's sexier. It's sadder. You know, it's, it's happier. All of that. And I think that what really interested me about the paranormal is that, you know, the end of the day, I was like, well, how do I, how do I take what I love about this American life or snap judgment? How do I, how do I look at something with a tasteful grace? Yeah. How would I apply that to, to something like the paranormal?

And you've met like sort of my best attempt at that, you know, as being a creative director, like branding is of course, essentially, and voice is essential. And you formulate a lot of that through insight and idea. And hopefully that helps you create something. Well, that's no different than what a non-dualist would consider it. Right. That's a third thing. So the general idea of creation and co-creation is as esoteric as, as it comes. So it was my belief that if I could, if I could sort of pair that energy into presenting the paranormal in the realest way possible, how could I reflect that upon people that maybe were not engaged with this material in the first place? And there's a lot of folks out there, you know and I, I think that's, I, I would be interested to see what listeners have thought. I haven't been able to go in through statistics, but what listeners have thought about the wide range of material that is presented. Yeah. To me, I know in the sixties and seventies, you know, that was commonplace to present all of these on sort of an even keel, you know, you can talk about Madame Lovatsky in one, you know, segment and then start talking about Kenneth Arnold and you with those in the next. Right. Right. And there's something about that that is very fascinating to me. And it all surrounds belief and acceptance and curiosity.

Yes. I think that's what's, that's what's really motivating me. If we can, if we can engage people in a very honest way and help them become more curious, then that's a win right there. I mean, you have very clear intentions with it, which I think is what's missing from a lot of media we get these days. I think it's not either it's not clear intentions or the intentions or for something is basis like followers or numbers or financial success and exposure and fame and ego boosting. And I think when you can keep it down to like trying to make someone curious about anything, just a specific story or an instance or this person or the nature of reality. I mean, that's like what a noble, noble pursuit, right?

Oh, don't get me wrong. I want to be famous and have a lot of money. And I'm glad you caught me say, catch me saying that too. I think that's also good. But I come from a general world, at least my business, a lot of my early business work as kind of a marketer and brander and digital consultant was from the spiritual world. So I constantly saw this juxtaposition of trying to spread the Dharma or help people, but also have it be a business. So I, I have a very, you know, warped sense of what people's intentions are with anything. And just to be clear, like anyone who has a podcast and looks at their numbers is, except maybe my friend Sean and Cass with very podcast, smoking toad all the time. We know it's with their intentions. I love to be deaf. But outside of them, like there is, you were doing this for a reason. We're trying to share something. We're trying to help people. It helps us, right? I mean, that's a, that's a big part of this. So I don't want to make it seem like we're just doing this because we're Bodhi Sattvas who just want to help people. And that's all we care about all the time. But there is a difference. Like I, I know people who have made the pursuit of a podcast or a brand or a business, their identity and dependent on that for them to be fulfilled. That's very different than kind of doing something because you're passionate about it. And, you know, have an idea and intention to make people curious, right? Yeah. That it's very, very different. So I mean, I, I'm glad you brought it up because I, I think I, I can very easily overgeneralize, like, you know, the intentions behind something. But, but it just even thinking about something like that man is, is relatively unusual. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Even examining those relationships, it's, it's very unusual. And, you know, and also, listen, I, I have to give my agency background credit for allowing me to understand the need to really consider your audience. Yes, yes, yes. It just, it just so happens usually in marketing, you're considering the audience for maybe towards intent that you're, you don't completely subscribe to, right? Yes. And so, but, but I'm, I try to be very cognizant of my relationship, the, the optics, even in full transition, the optics of my relationship with my audience, with whatever I produce.

And I think that hopefully that makes you a more considerate producer. Yes. And hopefully that every day, that allows you to check what your intent is. Right. Because you're cognizant that, no, this is a relationship and I'm not talking to no one. When I say these things, they're going to have an effect on someone. And there's a responsibility in what you produce and what you put out in the world. And I think that some creators perhaps are too intent on just creating whatever their passion is in whatever they feel like. And all the audience will just love whatever I do. I don't feel like that's responsible. I feel like it's a cop out. And everything that I've been taught about design, right? And production is that, no, you, you, like, who, like, why does anyone give a shit about what you're doing? I asked her all the time, does, would people give a shit about this? I had a great, like executive creative director who that was his litmus test. Well, that's a cool design, but like, who gives a shit? Which is a heck of a lot to a lot. Exactly. You have to, you kind of, to me, you have to be more forthright with what you're producing and honest with yourself about what you're producing. And it's not like I have all the answers, but this is just sort of like my code. What I think is that you have to understand you're in a relationship. And when you're in a relationship, there is give and take, there is compromise, there is conversation.

Or it's a completely one way thing. And I think we can really cloud your intent at that point because you're not being considerate. Yes, we, we move into the patriarchal relationship paradigm. If we're not paying attention, we're just doing a one sided thing and not listening to what's going on. And so I find all of this so fascinating for so many reasons, man, we share so many common experiences, it sounds like, I mean, what, what at this point, I know you said you're in the state of not believing, but what has, what has opened up in terms of your belief system, recognizing that you're, you seem to be always a relatively open minded person and accepting of things maybe outside of the norm. But I mean, like, you've, you've done some crazy, the vampire stuff, I haven't even listened to the episode yet because I'm like, that's too crazy. I have to scale up, I have to scale up to vampires before I'm going to be the drinking of the blood. Exactly. I mean, like, truthfully, that's really what's my thought process. I want like, what has it opened up for you in terms of what you're willing to believe or what? Maybe you're not willing to, like, write rule off, right?

Because that's probably where we start as people is we rule things off before accepting them a lot. I suppose I believe in control systems, whether they're intentional, whether they're, you know, whether it's some sort of big cabal. I believe in, you know, institutionalized control systems, perhaps. Yeah. I think that. I think I also, I also feel like there is an understanding of magic, of vehicle in places that maybe we don't expect. And I don't know if they're genuine or not. But there is an acknowledgement, I think, with those who've been in power forever, that there is something else, whatever that is, I'm not sure. But I think there is a belief that that knowledge is power and that the control of the system and our consciousness is very implicit upon things running smoothly. And, you know, honestly, a part of me believes that maybe they're right in some regards. That to be a just society, there needs to be code and there needs to be controllable activations, perhaps, to remain the chaos, to be that in which can be controlled. So I think I think I'm gleaming that. And I don't want to say that it's one particular, or the Illuminati. Yeah, right, right, right.

Those are really oversimplified executions of what this all could mean anyway. Yes, yes, what I do believe is something is going on and that we would really, our culture would be way better off if we didn't, well, first, if we read more, you know, secondly, if we didn't trust everything we heard, whether that is, you know, certain initiatives and or policies and or even beliefs about certain people or sets of people. Yeah. I think generality is like an enemy for our concerns, whether that's has to do with us coming together as a people or our belief systems. Yeah, I think that simplicity is a problem. I think that not giving folks enough credit for how much they can actually conceptualize how many realities they can actually potentially live in at one time. I think those, I think those things are problems. And I think I see that coming through not just the work that I'm doing, but I think I see it myself. I think I think I'm trying to pay very close attention to what my internal reactions are, because I'm a normal guy, you know what I mean? Like, I run you from that, but I also have a pro wrestling company, right? You know, I and then when I'm not doing that, I'm making memes for Simpsons, right? So I'm a very like normal kind of guy. And I know that there's been a culturalized systems. It like essentially embedded into me. So I have responses, you know, through influence or through hereditary that are based off of so many different factors that I'm, I'm, I'm, there's a lot of responses that I'm not really seeing control of. And I like to, I like to look at that from a distance and say, why? And not just trusting everything that I feel. I think is very important, not just trusting everything I feel. Knowing what to trust. Yes. And then knowing what not to trust. Well, the discernment of intuition, that if those can go hand in hand, you can really, they can be powerful allies. I mean, it's, I noticed this now, I know social media constantly gets attacked for what symptoms it can, you know, what it can do in terms of spreading certain types of behavior and siloing off people from other groups and filter bubbles and reinforcing confirmation bias and all this stuff. But I remember one specific example I've spoken about before, which is this Louis CK thing where it came out. I heard you talking about that. Yeah. And it just blew my mind how quickly I could catch myself just getting outraged without knowing or hearing anything except how it was being presented to polar opposite ways and the words and kind of nominalizations that we're getting thrown around and then talking it over with comedian friends and other people and just being like, you know what, like, hey, I don't think I care as much as I thought I did. Number one, number two, like, I don't think I was dictating what brought this, these feelings of outrage up for me.

Like I want to be able to engage with this on my own terms because if that's happening to me, and I think this is kind of where at least my personal interest in it comes from, and that's an insight into how it would potentially be affecting other people. Yeah. That's really wise for you to think about in that way, I think. It's like, if you have to, because, I mean, that, that to me is how we are actually going to either change the systems because I don't think you would find many people, really, maybe any of them who are like, yeah, everything is working great. Like shit is awesome. Yeah, everything we've done with society up until this point has worked flawlessly. Like we're really at the pinnacle of it. So I mean, like, people know that stuff isn't working. We know, you know, that we're destroying the planet that work. There's more sectarian violence, like there's stuff and I'm not painting our reality as a hellscape, but we know the systems that are in place are inefficient at best.

So that willingness and acknowledging of that, I think the next natural step is like, well, what do we do to alleviate this? What are some antidotes? What are the things that have gone wrong? How do we do that? And I think it does come back to exactly what you're doing and what kind of you've made your, your life about in a lot of ways, which is just showing people that there's other stuff, showing people that there's some other magical reality that they can get curious about that isn't somehow some separate thing. And I think that's the, that's the occultist, the paranormal is that's where I think you go to go back to the earlier thing we were talking about, like, where's that split in your life? There's no, there's no split, really. And when you can find the kind of comfort in living in that, it's not always comfortable, but accept that that's what's going on. It does get, it makes a lot more sense, rather than trying to have to split off personas or aspects of being, and then also recognizing, I'm sure you know this, you're married, like, you know, relationships are, are made the best teachers we have. Like, you learn how to change yourself via other people because if we were left, I was, how I was when I was 12 years old, no one would want to hang out with me as a prick, like a little shit, like a total asshole. So you learn over time through people not to be like that. Jim, man, I want to help with you.

That's like two little shit. Jim, we're going to wrap it up with the last questions, but I'd love to do this again, and obviously I won't encourage people to tune into what you're doing just because if you couldn't tell from my glowing endorsement, the entire show, like, it's really good stuff, man. Like, I love when I find things. It's one of the benefits of not being clued into a lot of things. I'm in my own little world, but then when I get tuned into something, I'm like, Oh my God, it's amazing. How does no one know this? Everyone needs to know about this right now. So dude, spin a blast. We'll do it again soon for sure. What is your favorite color? Blue. Nice. What is your favorite number?

Three. It's a good one. What is your favorite animal? Owl. That's a good one. Owls are not what they see, right? Practical tip that you that has helped you in your life that you can share with people listening could be anything. Nothing's ever for sure. That is so true. And yeah, yeah, I'm not going to do it. Let's leave it at that. I'm trying to answer these without thinking it's really good jobs. I didn't know the owl was my favorite animal, by the way. So they're interesting. My goal is if I'm one time not lazy enough, I want to do like a chart of the people who have, like, corresponding animals and number preferences and see where they line up. And you know, we're getting there when we have, like, 300 will be more interesting. I love it. Cool. Do thanks for coming on. I really fun conversation today.

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be a part of MindPod Network. Yes. Yes. Yes. Welcome aboard, man. It's going to be fun times. Cool. Well, thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Peace, man. All right. Bye. [Music] Thank you for listening past the music. And to that episode, like I said, Jim, cool guy. Infomet, very awesome podcast house. That's the first perlatives Michael Donovan. I like to use perlatives. Awesome. Maybe it is overused, but I've been using a long time and it's still like the word find a better one. I'll start using that. Just truly great guy. Go check it out. Oh, I didn't mention this because I'm a dingus in the intro. Uphomet is now part of mine pod network. Jim Perry part of mine pod network, whatever that means. It means that he's on the site and we feature his stuff and he's a cool guy and hopefully we can connect him to the web of podcasters and people enjoy the podcast. You know, group of people, good people. Sounds good, right? Nothing wrong with that. Alright, that's it.

Thanks for supporting the show. Listening, spending your time, have a great transition into spring in the next however long it's going to take. It's still super fucking cold and upstate New York in the Mid Hudson Valley. What are you going to do? Just write up the seasons. Okay, see you next week. Bye-bye!