Plants Are Your Friends with Jocelyn Perez

(upbeat music)

Welcome to synchronicity. (laughs) I don't know why I said it like that. Welcome to synchronicity, a fan, a magical guest. We get those once a week. The other times it's just me rambling about the Bible and other shit. Did you find out you're the light at the end of the tunnel yet? When you do let me know, know@syncpodcast.com. Today we have the lovely, the amazing, the patient, I imagine. Jocelyn Perez of Urban Garden. That's E-H-E-R-B-A-N garden. Not urban, with a U, with like urban garden. She's amazing. She's an herbalist. She knows a fuckwood about plants. My sister introduced me to her and I went to her office in Manhattan and it is just, there's a lot of plant stuff there.

I saw a wizard of Oz books and other interesting things and we had a lovely chat about how she got into plants, how she discovered them, how she's used them for her health. So this is a very practical down-to-earth episode. That's pretty cool, right? That's what we want. She's a scientist. She's empirically approaching this stuff. Of course, what do you think I did? Yacked about imagination. But there's a really beautiful synthesis that emerged from kind of the practical way we can use plant consciousness, which I am a fan of, as you know, with our own consciousness. Our own God, like imaginative abilities and powers.

So that's what this episode is. I recorded this jeez a long time ago. Was it August? I hope it wasn't August. It might have been August. It was warm. I remember that shit. It might have been August. Jocelyn is so patient. I put out a million episodes before then. I was getting to her and she didn't get lost in the shuffle and I feel like this is the most appropriate time to put it out. I'm just saying that 'cause this is when I'm putting it out but she's the best. I wanna do another one with her soon. Go check out all the links in this episode. If you're in New York, she does free tours where she like identifies plants and cool shit around there.

It's like, it's pretty incredible really when you tune into what she's doing. She's just the coolest. So that's that. I'm just keeping it right. We're getting right to it this episode. No faffing about. No ridiculous side tracks. You know where to find me. I will say this, YouTube. I'm getting, I'm super on it with the YouTube. I'm on it on Instagram too now. I'm pretty active there but YouTube, I'm gonna start streaming for real. I got it all set up. I'm tweaking, I'm refining. I did a test today with people from the crypto sync server. By the way, if you're interested in crypto sync, the cryptocurrency slash imagination server, saying this once, I don't hype this shit.

I don't promote it anymore. I know people are bothered when I talk about cryptocurrency. Get over it. It's $50 lifetime access you pay once you're in forever. It's just the gate. I don't want riff-raff in there. It's a gate. If you get it, you get it. It's fucking awesome. It's a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin. Just pay attention. I'm next year. It's gonna be pretty cool. A couple months. Anyway, that's it for this intro rating review. Share with friends. You know what it is. I'm coming to LA soon. Whitma. Oh my gosh. Whitmalive.com. There are links all over the place. I'm gonna be putting this shit up.

Just go to Whitmalive.com. Get these tickets now. I know if you're in New York, it's October 18th. I know if you're there, you're like, no, I'm in New York, I'm gonna wait till the week of or a couple days before you're freaking my friends out. When you do shit like that, I've done enough events so I don't throw events anymore because it fucking, everyone waits till the last week or two days and it's like, oh, Jesus, everything. I've worked with people who are huge, huge audiences, massive ones and they always do really well, but even they, it's that last week phenomenon. So just go, if you're in New York, you know you're coming.

I'm gonna be there. Lots of cool fucking people. Whitmalive.com, hopefully Ann is listening to this. You call me up and she's like, hey, will you, you know, you're not posting enough on Instagram, you're not using the hashtags. It's 'cause I suck at Instagram. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm very bad at it. I basically flounder and try to do basic shit to communicate what I need to communicate, but like, I don't have to fuck I'm doing. But this podcast hits a lot of years. I know a lot of you are in New York. Go tell your friends. Say, listen, this is a fucking event. This weird guy who talks about imagination is gonna be there.

There's a whole panel on imagination that Jen's doing. So go do that. Whitmalive.com. All right, let's get to the real listen. Talk about, I was like, hey, remember we're gonna keep a short intro? Not even fucking close. Let's get to the real sponsors of this show. They're up there at the front of the thing. You'll see them. Ned haven't mentioned them in a while. Not because I don't work with them. The New York of shit's going so well. I can coast the easy breeze it. We were good. But go to hello, Ned.com. Get yourself some CBD full spectrum hemp oil. Just embrace the high priestess in all her forms, even in her male form, even in like the Hierophant Emperor forms, the hemp.

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'Cause I like it. I like it with edibles too. It's nice. Anyway, how to get that in there. It's the herbalist. I'm talking about CBD. It's like, come on. Match made in heaven. Jocelyn, you're the best. If you're listening, I'm sure she is. Everyone likes to hear themself on a podcast. Who doesn't? Like people pretend, oh, no, no, I didn't listen. Why, I can't listen to myself. Really? You would least listen to the first five minutes. Anyway, Jocelyn, you're the best. Everyone go tune into her. Go just check her out everywhere. There are links, you know what to do. Without further ado, here is Jocelyn Perez.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay.

Awesome sauce.

All right, Jocelyn.

Hi.

Thank you for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

We're gonna get to know each other right now.

All righty.

On the podcast.

Nice.

So my sister connected us.

Yes.

And she said you're an herbalist.

Yes.

Which, if you know me, that would have piqued my interest if I didn't know what I mean, meant, but I do. But I don't really. So can you kind of just give me a little bit of background about who you are?

How you became an herbalist and kind of what does that mean?

Yes.

Okay.

It's a loaded question.

I know, that's not why I start the show.

Hey, yeah.

Well, it's definitely a process. I think there's a even notable quotes. I think it was Paul Bergner who said that he has a lecture that's literally how to be a master herbalist. And then the whole point of the lecture is to tell you you can't be a master of a list.

Nice.

Nice.

And I think it's Susan Weed, who said it takes like seven lifetimes.

Her name is Susan Weed.

Susan Weed, yes. I like that name.

Yes. But yeah, so it's always a process. You can never really know everything. And the more you learn, the more I realize I don't know anything.

Right. (laughing)

But essentially, so it started with my mom. So my mom's side of the family, kind of like the female line, they just use herbal remedies. That was just what they did. That's just how they treated themselves, anything. And so my mother came here as a child. And so she actually from Costa Rica.

I knew that. You already told me that, but I let the people know.

From Costa Rica, yes. And she came, she was like 11 years old. And so she brought that with her, that knowledge with her. But then she actually fused it with modern medicine. So like she'd make eucalyptus oils, for instance, when we were little, she'd make a eucalyptus oil and then mix it with Vix.

Oh.

And then apply it onto our skin.

That's kind of cool, right? That's like double smart.

Yeah. So she really kind of like evolved it, you know, where she was like, okay, I'm gonna take what I learned and I'm gonna take what's available here. And I'm gonna kind of, you know, fuse it.

It's cool, she did that because I think a lot of time when people discover things like, you know, herbs or other modalities is there's this sometimes a tendency to kind of disregard or throw the baby out with the bath water with the other stuff. So that innate insight and intuition she had to merge them is fucking awesome.

Yes.

Yeah, cool, very cool, very cool.

Yeah, and it was just, you know, I took it for granted. I definitely took a grant for granted growing up. We like, we were very picky and her kind of, I guess way of going about it was, yes, of using the traditional with the like the modern pharmaceutical, but she also believed very much in nutrition. And so we were, my brother and I were very picky as children and especially when we got sick, we got even more picky, obviously. And so she had a great way of sneaking in medicine. She would like put it into the blender, make sauces. And so you're thinking, oh, it's just the sauce, but really there's herbs, there's, you know, everything in there.

She was Mary Poppins in the stuff, yeah.

Oh yeah. And yeah, and then as I got older, I mean, my grandmother was like that with teas and especially with liniments, which are when you have used rubbing alcohol. And so sometimes she'd mix herbs with rubbing alcohol.

Oh, wow.

And so it's more of a topical.

Right.

So it's not for it, yeah. So it's topical. So that's the difference between like a tincture and a liniment.

Oh.

So tinctures are like, you know, regular alcohol that you can actually ingest.

Yes, yes.

And liniments are rubbing alcohol, which you do not ingest. And so just the alcohol's function is to, what does it do to the herbs or things that are put in it? What's its function? Yeah.

So when you, let's say, I guess I'll just quickly go through the process. So when you're drying out or dehydrating in herb, right? The constituents inside, the chemicals. So these all consist of everything, like especially like the phytochemicals. So that the plant is using for its own immune system and its own function. And so what's happening is that when, once it starts to dehydrate a lot of these constituents, like the, if you've ever seen a plant cell, you know, it's, so these walls kind of collapse onto themselves and the constituents crystallize.

Oh.

And so what happens, exactly. So what happens is when you rehydrate them, these walls are now so brittle that they burst open. So whether you rehydrate them with tea, so with water to make tea or with alcohol.

Right.

So the, the alcohol is just another solvent to extrapolate these chemicals.

And I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, what you just said is they crystallize them when the walls are broken, the crystals are free.

They're free.

Oh, shit.

To move around your solution.

Okay.

But then there's some that are easily reached through water, for instance, and then there's some that you need something stronger. So you need alcohol to break it down.

Okay.

And to really take out, to really take out and bind and make the chemicals readily available.

So then it binds with the alcohol or other soluble.

Well, essentially they're almost like in a, they, it's like a solvent. So they're more like in suspension.

Ah, that's cool.

It's a really cool, like when you get into like the whole, the whole chemical process. But yeah, so.

I know I, I know I detract you from,

No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm like, I'm trying to.

To your mouth.

To your mouth.

All right.

I'm, and I'm trying to figure out where I was going with that. So yeah, so what's the alcohol?

Yes. And so then I guess depending on what it is that you are extracting. So you have to take the urban to account because then alcohol, like the alcohol proof, for instance, that comes into play.

'Cause it could degrade something if it's too strong or.

Not necessarily, it just won't, it won't work. So if you wanted something, for instance, like a resin, like frankincense, you gotta go like a hundred proof.

Really strong.

Really strong. And so yeah, so it's like ever clear.

I remember that from back in the day at music festivals when we thought it was cool to burn your throat with something.

Yes, so the alcohol, the alcohol percentage and the proofs. And I think it's that the proofs are like, you think it'll say, I hope I'm not inverting this, but I think it's like, if you say 40, 50 proof, it's really.

22%, something like that.

Something like that.

Yeah.

It's a cat.

I'm forgetting the math.

I just know this from play school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause it'd be like it's 80 proof and it's like 40%.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the herbs.

So okay, so I know I took you off track with kind of the chemical and then alchemical.

Yeah, no, no, no.

So stuff works, but how, so your family, you're steeped in this tradition.

Yes, yes.

Did you gravitate towards it as a child?

So yeah, so I was always into nature. So get me outside, get me in the dirt, you know.

Yes.

I needed to be around nature. And I spent a lot of my youth wanting to be a vet, actually. And I focused on that pretty hard for the first few years. Everybody thought I was gonna be a vet. And then it wasn't until like in high school, I went to John Bound High School in Queens and we have an agriculture program.

Oh shit, cool.

So it's the only agriculture program here in the city.

Yeah.

And you essentially work on a farm for four years, you know.

Holy shit.

And it was such a learning experience. And of course there was animal science, plant science. And we get to explore a little bit of each and then pick a focus. So I explored plant science, but I focused on animal science. And as I was doing this, it was after high school, you know, college.

Where'd you go to college?

Well, I went to LaGuardia Community College for my associates.

Sure.

And it was stressful. And I stopped, you know, doing the self-care kind of thing.

Yeah, I was in stressful.

Well, when I got there, you know, it's a whole change of structure obviously. And then I wasn't sure like about my major. I kind of hit that kind of thing that mostly people do.

Who the fuck do you know is when you're 18, 19. Like, what are they doing to us?

Exactly. So I was doing their, they have, they offer a vet tech program over there.

Cool, cool, cool.

So I kind of went in with that as my mission. And I was there for a year and then I go, I don't, I don't think I actually want to do that. After all these years of saying that's what I wanted to do. And I started and I was also not taking care of myself. And I started getting really sick. So just like every little thing would just defeat me. And I mean, I was living on a diet of like ramen, Mcchickens and like two liter Coke bottles.

Oh, that'll do it.

Right. So, and my mom kept warning me too. She kept saying, you're not eating healthy. You know, you're not like, you're not hydrating. You're not, you know, taking care of yourself. And then I started getting like sick sick where I started getting migraines I had to be put on meds for migraines. Then I used to eat off food carts all the time and I got H.Pylori, which is like this horrendous gut in like intestinal infection that you and these horrible bacteria that you get.

And when it's in your stomach it's not a fucking joke.

No.

Yeah. - No. And, and I was very slow to get that treated. I lived with that for 10 years.

Holy sheesh.

Yep, yep. I...

But you did get it treated.

Eventually, but and it was 120 pills in 10 days. And it was...

Was it 12 pills a day? How, what is the schedule of that? Every hour basically?

Yeah, it was like every two hour, every three, four hours?

Two hours, yeah.

Yeah, it was nuts. I was crying, I don't want to take them anymore. 'Cause they make you feel worse. I mean, I was bedridden.

It's basically, I mean, I don't, I'm just assuming it's just nuking everything because it's like, hey, this stuff is really hard to get. So we'll just nuke at all.

Yeah. - Yeah.

Yeah. - Doesn't make you feel good.

No, no, no, no, no. It was absolutely horrendous. And, but yeah, even with that. So I got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, which does run in my mother's side of the family. And I was like, you know, I was 22. And all of a sudden I grew up, I was allergic to coconut and dust. And then all of a sudden I was 22. I was allergic to things I've eaten my entire life. I was allergic to onions, I'm allergic to eggs, the yellow dye and cheese.

Let's be honest though, yellow dye and cheese not the worst thing to be allergic to.

But it's just like just so random.

And it's like strawberries and everything.

Just a lot of weird genetically diverse things.

Yeah. So things that I ate every day, corn.

Corn? - Oh, you're fucked.

Yeah, right. - With the corn.

And it was just horrible. So, and yeah, so as I was getting older and I'm just feeling worse. And then I just realized one day I'm sitting in the doctor's office a couple of years ago. And I think I was like 26 at the time, 27. And I was like, I've been living with this stuff for like four or five years now. And I'm listening, I was switching doctors. And so he was reading a list off to me. And it was like migraines, you have a history migraines. And you know, you have rheumatoid arthritis and a carpal tunnel and, you know, he's just reading this.

All this shit, yeah.

And I just felt like, you know, like when there's a fly in the room and there's like that really annoying buzz and it's almost like you feel it like creeping up. And I was just like, what the fuck, I'm sorry.

No, no, you think on this show, you can't cuss, you can swear as much as you want. You don't have to, but you're allowed to.

But yeah, it was just like, what the fuck am I doing? You know, I'm obviously not taking care of myself. Like my vitamins were completely deficient and the blood tests were horrendous. My cholesterol was really high. I just, I had stopped, you know, caring about myself and, you know, about my health. So I kind of, I went back to home-cooked meals and, you know, really kind of listening to my mother.

Always good.

Right? And yeah, and then I started kind of revisiting this whole thing and then it changed. I started taking, like I make nettle tincture.

Nettle.

Yes, nettles are amazing. And they're great with allergies.

Oh, no, that's why I'm saying no to all of us.

Exactly.

'Cause they basically cured my seasonal allergies. Yeah.

Right?

That's it, that's the end of the story.

It's amazing.

It's to the point where if you take, like for me personally, I've been taking nettle so long that now when I try things that I'm allergic to, slightly allergic to, I'm not getting a reaction.

Same.

Yeah.

So I haven't tried coconut is my worst allergy.

Interesting.

But I have not tempted that because, you know, I can go into anaphylaxis.

Oh, that's not a mild allergy.

So yeah, that's my-

Yeah, maybe don't tempt that. We'll scale up to that one.

Yeah, yeah. So-

With an EpiPen.

Yeah, yeah.

Right?

Popcorn, corn, the cob.

Amazing.

You know, without any reaction.

So how did you scale your way up from this deep low point of like the doctor literally reading off your symptoms?

Yeah, so I started small. First I started in what I had available in the house.

Yes.

So what, you know, if I was forced to have to make food in the house, like remove anything that I shouldn't be having. So I got rid of all those like pre-mixed, you know, probably my Latin American family will be so, you know, heartbroken, but like the Adobo.

Oh, I know.

You know, the high sodium stuff. And I just went to actually using getting fresh spices, grinding them myself.

Cool.

You know, doing it myself.

And that's a whole process.

Exactly, exactly. And so it just made feeding myself much more enjoyable. And I think that was like very therapeutic in that way. You literally just start from like, and start rehydrating. And then I started revisiting teas. So my mom was really big on chamomile tea. And she used chamomile for everything. Even if you got a mosquito bite, you know, she would put it onto your skin, like put a rag.

The tannins and stuff, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So she was, you know, I, so I started kind of going back to that, to like the basics. Like, okay, what do I know? Linden tea, we use that home, chamomile, we use that home. And I started asking her more questions. And I started picking up more books, you know, and learning more also about like Western herbalism. And it just kind of sent me into this rabbit hole. And I started going really in on workshops to learn about other traditions. Like Ayurveda, I went to a couple workshops for Ayurveda. There's some really great ones that are offered pretty close by actually. And even like traditional Chinese medicine.

So I was like, let me just see. You're going. - And yeah, yeah. And I just started kind of like connecting the dots. And then since I went to, I was, so after LaGuardia, I went to Hofstra. And I was there. And that was actually, I totally glazed over that. But my first semester there, it was when I was really sick. You know, I wasn't taking care of myself. And of course the stress. And I'm there for my bachelor's. I'm going for my bachelor's. My first semester, I get double pneumonia.

Both lungs. - Both lungs.

And... - Hospital?

So hospital. - Yeah.

And it was like right before finals.

Of course. - And so...

Of course. - Right. So I got like really messed up. I couldn't doing completes 'cause it just, I was, I could not function. I couldn't like, you know, do live life normally for a while after that.

And... - It's hard to live life normally when you can't breathe.

Right. - Yeah.

And so I had to repeat the semester. So that was just, yeah.

Delays and frustration.

Yeah. And then I finally went back and then I did that and I was continuing on. And then I had only, I had one semester left. And then so I was, I got a horrible kidney infection because I got these kidney stones and I kept just kind of...

You're dramatic.

Right? My body hates me, but now it doesn't.

Don't say that, now it doesn't.

Okay, good. - But it did, it did.

Well, it's trying to show you something.

I think exactly, yeah. It was trying to like, shake me and go, hello. Like, what are you doing?

And it's you, so. - Yeah.

So, but yeah, it was all the soda. I got kidney stones.

Oh, that happened to a friend of mine and he was like, I don't know, 28, 29, at the time, I'm like, dude, how much soda are you drinking?

Yeah. - Yeah.

Yeah. - A lot.

Yeah. - And not water.

No. - Yeah.

So, I kept kind of just brushing off the pain 'cause at the time I had an ovarian cyst as well, right? Right, see, I'm not lying, like I legit have horrendous.

I'm sure you understand now looking back that all of these things, while you're recounting them sound just like insane.

Exactly. - Yeah, had to because now when people come to you with these, you're like, no, like, I don't conceptually know what you're talking about. - I know exactly.

Exactly. - So.

Probably you for putting yourself through that to get that wisdom. - Right. (laughs)

I'm not doing that. (both laugh)

But yeah, and so then that screwed me up. So I had to leave school because while I was there, I got a, oh gosh, the word just escaped me. But when you get another infection while you're in the hospital, secondary infection, I guess.

Wasn't sepsis, though, right?

No, no, no, no. I got intestinal infection. - Wow.

And it was just a really bad time and then I couldn't finish school. And so when I wanted to go back for my, to finish my bachelors, I thought with all the medical stuff but I couldn't get my scholarship back.

Classic. - So that's on pause.

Until I can figure out, you know. But I was trying to get that back, by the way. I may know away. - Yeah.

It's not anything to do practically but it does have to do with imagination and it does work.

Okay. - So.

Maybe. - Yeah, we'll see.

I can try that.

Yeah, it's worth a shot at least, right?

Yes, no, of course. But yeah, just kind of going through all that. Like I said, all those red flags, your body kind of, you know, the alarms are blazing. I just changed and we even, like a, my husband was really big. He wanted to be like a vegetarian or at least cut out a lot of meat. And I did too and with my cholesterol and stuff and, and then I was really, I was like, why am I eating meat? But so we, we stopped eating like beef, pork, chicken. We occasionally have fish but I'm trying to, we're trying to cut that down too. But for four years now, so we're on our way (laughs) getting rid of all these things.

And, and so cool when my doctor actually shows me my charts.

Yeah, you see the visual proof.

Like he was shooting like, yeah, the graph. And you just see like my cholesterol dropped. Yeah, and like my vitamins went up and the doctor had actually recommended that when they did my blood tests, he gave me this multivitamin and I swear it's like a horse pill. Like this thing and I just, I didn't want to take it. It was really uncomfortable to take. And I said, well, I'm using herbs. So I, I started researching and like red clover, nettle itself has an amazing bunch of nutrients.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, it's a nutritive, it's wonderful.

Wow.

I actually have a nettle, nettle red clover infusion in my lunch box.

Amazing.

But it's essentially it's a multivitamin. So I say, you know what? I'm going to just try taking these herbs with, with all these, you know, nutrients, vitamins.

I have the vitamins and stuff in there, yeah.

And I did. And when I went back six months later for my blood tests, another round, he goes, I had the multivitamin is working. And then I was like, no, it's not.

You had a burst his bubble.

Like two pills. I was like, I took him for two days. And I was like, nope. And I started taking infusions. And he was like, wow. And he actually said, keep doing what you're doing.

That's awesome. They just care about the numbers. That's the doctors. They want to see the, I learned this from having kids. It's all graphs and numbers. You just want them in the range where the doctors don't have to worry. That's the job. But for you, it's much more than that. It's not just, you know, getting the graph down. That's nice. It's wonderful to see, but it's how you feel. It's what you learned. It's how you can then communicate what you learned, which I am now seeing the path to how we got where we are now. But I mean, from there, from seeing it in yourself, kind of crystallize and materialize in this world, what shifted in you psychologically to be like, okay, I think I'm going to like commit to this now as a thing I'm doing.

Yeah. So as I was doing this, I was faced with friends and family that were dealing with the same type of thing. And at what started as a passion project essentially to fix me, I started kind of helping to fix others.

It's funny how it works like that.

Right. And my husband was my guinea pig, of course, for a lot of things. And yeah, and as it grew, and then people just started asking me, you know, I was preparing different like tinctures and like tea blends for people. And then eventually it changed into people asking me, why don't I teach? That why, why aren't you teaching? Why aren't you holding workshops? And so I started to do that. And then people started coming. And then people were like, why don't you have an organization? So it just, yeah, like this whole, I just have like this overwhelming need to like spread the knowledge. So it's something that everyone can do.

It's not like an impossibility. It's literally something everyone can do. Children can do it, you know? So it's something that I just felt like everyone has the right to have, you know, and to know about and know that that's an option. You know, and of course, do the research. WebMD actually has this whole thing where you can put in, it's like a whole supplements section.

Oh, cool.

So you can actually added herbs and stuff to them too.

Oh, very cool.

So you, if you're like interested in researching an herb, like yeah, so it'll tell you what medications they interact with and it's a great resource. So that's helped me a lot. Like people will be like, oh, well I'm on this, this, this, and this med, you know?

You can cross reference.

Exactly. So it's really amazing that they have that available. And yeah, 'cause some crazy things can happen. Like there was a guy who was taking trasadone, I believe it was, and he started taking a ginkgo supplement and ginkgo is a circulatory. And it just, it interacted really badly with the trasadone. He fell into a coma for a while.

Oh, sheesh.

So you gotta be careful.

Because we think of things in pills. It's like strong, but we don't think of like herbs and things that come from the earth. Even though if you track most of this stuff back, I mean, all of it, they're getting either the idea or the raw compound from organic things.

Of course.

It's not like they pull it out of the ether.

Yeah.

And I'm like, that's how shit works. So I mean, of course, like the actual root, no pun intended of this stuff, like is gonna be powerful and could definitely have some combinations. So how do you begin as a novice, as an amateur, which I am approaching the world of herbs and natural healing through plants? Like how, I know symptomatically is a good way. Like if I have a problem, you can say, "Hey, here's something." But let's say everything is going pretty well, but I'm just looking for improved health or something to get me more in tune with the natural flow and rhythms of my body.

Of course.

Is there something for that?

Yes. So the first thing you would have to do is explore your energetics.

Yes.

So that's a whole thing.

How do you do that?

So well, depending on, there's different traditions. So in like Ayurveda, they have the doshas.

Yes.

In like ancient Chinese medicine, the traditional Chinese medicine, depending on the tradition, there can be like nine different ones or like 25 or 26. So it really depends there. But everybody has just this different, and it changes, it shifts from time to time. It's not something that's, you know, stagnant. It's constantly changing. But you have these energies. And what they also call like tissue states. And so you have like, there's hot and cold states, there's dry and wet, and then there's also excited and stagnant, which exists on a whole other plane.

Yes.

So when it comes really down to like hydration and just moisture in the tissues, moisture about moisture content. And so yeah, you got to just kind of first understand that.

How do you do that? How do you like?

So there are several books that are coming out about the subject, Rosalie de la Ferre. She did one, "The Alchemy of Herbs." And I recommend that 'cause it's really like simple.

I like the name.

Right? She's amazing. And she actually has like a quiz. And so things like, are you hot or cold? And so symptoms of hot would be you flush very easily, you're constantly, you're hotter than most people.

That's nice, I sweat.

Right? I'm cool with that. I've known it since I'm a kid. I remember literally being on like a school trip once and a girl was sitting next to me and she was like, "How can you?" She's like, "Why are you so hot?" And I'm like, I'm not. I feel normal, but like my skin. And she's like, feel everyone else's skin. I'm like, that's weird. I'm like, I don't know why. But yeah, like it's interesting. People probably don't think about this. They just think, oh, everyone is hot or everyone is cold, but it is, it does vary.

It really, it fluctuates. And there, it's not always the case, but most of the time males are hotter, seem to run hot, as they say. And the opposite is true. It tends to be true for females.

Yeah, anyone who's in a man-woman relationship will know that a woman is cold all of the time. And then it's like, no, it's not cold.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so yeah, and things like for cold, constantly being chilly, the tips of your toes and your fingers are always cold.

Circulatory, right?

Yeah, it's a problem with circulation. Things like that, finding out if you're dry, so you have dry skin, dry hair, dry nails, tend to have dry mouth, then versus like damp, what they call like, damp.

Yeah, that's a Chinese thing, isn't it?

Yeah, well, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so things like you have excess mucus, you're just like retaining that water and that's not moving. It's like a swamp eventually, your body.

A bog.

Yeah.

A bog down.

Yeah, yeah, and it also like oily too. So people don't think of like oily as falling into that, but that it does.

Yeah.

And then tense and relaxed tissues. So it's like atrophied tissue versus, you know, incredibly like tense, which has their own host of problems. And so essentially, once you kind of start diving into that, if you want to stick, I recommend checking out each, like as many traditions as possible.

Of course.

Because, and then it's amazing, like your brain explodes when you start to see like where they intersect.

They all line up.

Exactly. All line up. Like I was taking a lecture about like Tibetan traditional medicine and I was seeing aspects of like Ayurveda and aspects of traditional Chinese medicine. And then I was seeing, I was like, wait, there's some things in there that, you know, in Western medicine, Western herbalism that they mentioned. And then, and then I started kind of, once I have a, since I have a very big science background, in the last few years, I've always been into folklore. My mom was a literature teacher.

Cool.

And so growing up, we were like reading it like the Roman like myths and, you know, the Greek myths.

I love mythology so much.

Right. It's so much fun.

I've been getting into her. Let me just give you my list of what I've been doing today. Serus, Lilith, Athena, and then Millorepa from Tibet.

Oh, that is so cool.

This morning.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

It's amazing.

Really, a lot of these are planets and asteroids too. And if you start looking at astrology, you can see the energetics really, it's all of this stuff lines up. It's not just like within the domicile of like herbs and plants, like everything lines up. And when you actually like can connect the threads, it's like, holy shit. What the fuck is going on? And then it's really fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause that's even reminding me. I, like I'm saying, it's along the same thread. So I'm trying to kind of learn more about like the spiritual aspect of herbs. I'm kind of getting to that esoteric kind of area.

That's my home. That's where I live. (laughing)

So, with that, I actually just grabbed a book by Sage of Popum. He's an amazing herbalist. But he also, he fuses astrology alchemy and herbalism. So I just picked up his book and it's a,

Oh, you're gonna wipe that.

And I'm excited to go in there. 'Cause I want to see where it ties in. 'Cause just like listening to some of his lectures, I was like blown away when he starts talking about like how astrological signs are like related to different organs and, you know, and then how the certain herbs are related. And then you see that the herb is actually used for, you know, it, so I've been connecting those dots through like the last two years now. And I'm just like, every time--

Oh, it's gonna get a lot weirder. It just like, there comes a point where you just kind of accept it and laugh. Because like, otherwise it, I think it'll just blow your mind. Like I, and like to a point where it's almost distracting that it's blowing your mind. 'Cause you're just like, whoa, I gotta stop now and process this after like, I don't know, few thousand of those things. You're just like, all right, cool. This is how it is. I'm just gonna trust that I'm gonna see what I need to see next. And then that's when things start to really unfold in a unique way. But you're connecting stuff that I wouldn't have overtly would think would be connected, which is these plants, these consciousnesses that interface with ours, if looked at through a mythological lens, right, when you're talking about it.

And I want you to go back to the story you were talking about related to mythology. I didn't need to cut you off, but it really is a powerful thing here. Because then you really start to like, play with these mythologies and stuff. And I'll say my viewpoint on what I think everything is. So I think all, if I say Krishna, if I say Buddha, if I say, Nana, if I say, and any God or goddesses, the universe, the world, and you think of anything outside of you, wrong, it's all in you. We pull them out from within us and project them out and say, oh my God, it's amazing. And if you're consciously aware of that, it's so much fun.

'Cause then you say, oh, Juno, she's this goddess and she did that and she relates to this herb. And I see someone who has this problem, let me go make them this brew, this magic potion, whatever it is and heal them with the energies of this. And it's like, I'm telling you, you're gonna have so much fun over the next few years with this stuff, especially just 'cause like, you're at the forefront of it. Like people don't, people are just discovering the tip of the iceberg with a lot of these things in their own way, but you're going to the depths. If you're now really getting the like alchemical, mystical relationship between human beings and plants, like that's, you know, people go to the jungle like 20 times to take ayahuasca to figure this out.

You can just do it, you don't have to.

You don't have to.

That would be nice.

It is nice, you don't have to, yeah. You don't have to.

That's actually something I'd like to do.

Oh, well, there's endless opportunities.

It would just, I just got back from Costa Rica actually.

There's a lot there.

Oh yeah, and that was, I mean, I went obviously to visit my mother and family. My mom moved back like six years ago. She was like, you're married, your brother's married. Love ya.

Peace, going back to the homes. Beautiful.

And so that was a much needed trip. So much greenery there and just the way of life there. And it was amazing, I was obviously, I kind of, I kept apologizing to my husband, but I mean, I took it as an opportunity, like I'm surrounded by all this knowledge and I was like asking everybody, so what do you use this plant for here? What do you, you know? And I was constantly like looking at plants and I was like, oh my God, they have that plant here. We have that plant, oh my God, you know? And even house plants, like I'm obsessed with house plants as well.

Yeah.

So.

You and my mom would get along.

Oh yeah?

Yeah, I know I test introduces too because then this is like, plants are awesome.

They are.

Yeah.

Then that's the thing is a lot of people don't give them that much credit. I know I didn't, like I liked plants growing up. I like nature, I love trees and I knew how to identify trees from them before I went into the agriculture program. But a lot of like researchers have kind of dubbed it like green blindness, they call it green blindness where like you see a lawn and it's just, it's a lawn.

Right, there's no grass.

Or you just see green, like yeah, you're not recognizing that it's grass.

But it's something, yeah.

Or that there's other things there. There's clover, there's plantain, you know, there's tribes. There's so much going on in there. It's a food.

Lemon clover, right? I just started eating this stuff.

Yeah, oh, the shamrocks, the ox alleys.

The lemon, they taste like lemon.

Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't know it was fucking amazing. They go everywhere, you can just eat them. I learned that it'll, my son starts school up the Waldorf school up by us and these kids are like little geniuses. They have like an herb glass and gart. So like this kid, just frolicking around is like, you can eat this and I'm like, can I eat this in order an adult comes up and was like, yeah, you can. I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

So people call it a weed.

Yes, yes.

And that's what I was encountering over there too. And you would think it wouldn't be that way. Like, I thought, wow, you guys are surrounded by so much greenery. I mean, literally the town, it's like town, jungle, like all around, mountain, forest, and then road town, you know? And I really, 'cause I hadn't been back since I was a teenager. And I really thought, I don't know. I guess I kind of built it up. I was like, oh, they're gonna, yeah. And funny enough, a lot of the medicinal plants that they have there, they were calling them malesa, which means like something bad, a bad plant. Yeah. So they were just like, oh, you have red clover here.

I was like, what do you call it, malesa? And I was like, you know, this is a vitamin, you know? And then, but I did learn, there was a few. And it was mostly the plant people that I met there. So the, like the gardeners and like the herbalists there. So they definitely knew what I was talking about. And I was like learning so many things 'cause there was like a like plantain that we have here. And I tend to use the leaves and I knew that the seeds were edible. I've eaten the seeds before. It kind of tastes like almighty. But I had no idea that she was talking about steeping the seeds in water and you drink it and it cools the stomach.

Oh shit. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, I didn't read that anywhere. Wait, you're not going to most likely. No, yeah. And she's like, we've been using that for generations. And my mother wasn't, she was like, oh, I didn't know. Like she didn't work like with weeds like that. So she was just like, oh, I, you know, I have no idea. You just think about how much knowledge and wisdom is around the world. Yes. The people don't even like, it's not in the books always, right? It's oral tradition, it's cultural, it's passed down. And that stuff is powerful because it's literally like transmission from person to person.

Yes. It's pretty powerful stuff. It is, it is. And, you know, so it's, and a lot of these people, they just die with those traditions. A lot of the younger generation don't want to. Oh, it's a shame. You know, they're not interested. It's just like, you know, they have other priorities. I feel like the younger kids actually are more these days. I think there is this transitional period now where like we recognize these old systems are dead. They've been dying, but they're dead now. And people are still kind of living in them and they're like, oh, this isn't so bad. But like it's, it's kind of time to move on.

We're in this weird, have to go through both of these things. And I think the younger kids from what I can tell, just, I'm around a decent amount of young kids now because I have a toddler and a newborn and you go through different schools, you meet different kids. They're more sensitive to what's going on. And yes, they have these electronics jammed in their faces and that's its own kind of thing. But they're still like more tuned in. I think there is going to be where a lot of people are age or older look at this like clash between technology and nature. I think the younger kids especially see that they're not mutually exclusive and they can actually work in harmony and they don't go towards one at the expense of the other.

And I think that's where we can combine a lot of these like oral wisdom and oral tradition wisdom with like a way of disseminating it really quickly. Like listen, I'm here just to not get all meta about it. Like we're talking about this stuff on a podcast and it's going to be heard by thousands and thousands of people and not all of them are going to be like, hey, I want to get into herbs but for the few hundred or so that do like that's radically going to change their life. And then what does that do for the people around them? It's pretty fucking cool is what I'm saying.

Yeah, it does. It's a complete ripple effect.

Yeah, exactly.

It's, you know, and that's the point.

So the plants want us to do.

Well, yeah, yeah.

Where are the plants too?

You know, right?

Yeah. (laughing) But no, yes, that's very true. I guess I was referring more like to some of the teenagers that I've encountered or have been told by people in the community like, you know, my teens are not interested.

Well, they grew up in the turn of the century. We were still living in whatever world that was. It was not this one. And, you know, I can understand why they think it's not cool or not interesting. Probably when there are 20s and 30s, they will.

But the little ones, there's something going on.

Oh, yeah, no, no, no, I've, there was just somebody that I was talking to the other day that said that their son is a toddler. It's like three or four and was saying, why do we eat animals? Like, I don't wanna eat animals. And that the father was like, I don't know. And then they stopped.

That's right. The whole household just decided just to stop.

Last night, my toddler did something very interesting. He was eating cheese off of pasta. And we're like, why aren't you eating the pasta? And he goes, eh, and we're like, no, why? And he goes, the peppers told me not to. And we're like, what? And he's like, the peppers told me not to. And then I'll go and like, sometimes kids just say shit. So I was like, all right, this is on Instagram 'cause I'm recording it for a story. And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, the peppers told me not to. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna assume you're talking to peppers and not being a little, 'cause he said it with such conviction.

Like it wasn't like, this is a bit, 'cause he'll do bits sometimes. But he was like, no, the peppers told me not to. And I'm like, all right, the peppers told you not to. Maybe they should tell you to eat them because you need to eat more vegetables. But we'll start there. I mean, it's very interesting how if you kind of like drop, this is what you were talking about with trees and plants. Like that blindness, if you can get into the state where you recognize a tree and can have a conversation with it, you're on the right track.

Oh yeah.

But you're on the right fucking track. But if that sounds like a crazy, hippie insane idea, you'll have more work to do.

Yes, no.

Yeah.

It's when you actually start recognizing them as beings.

Yeah.

It's not just a tree. It's not just for scenery. This is a living, breathing organism. And it's just a being and then recognizing it. So that's actually, so well, there's two whole things with this. So one is I became a Tinker Garden teacher, if you know about Tinker Garden. So it's a program here, go there across like 20 or states now. And so it's a program for kids like 18 months to eight years. And it's a nature-based program. And so we teach classes outside in nature in local parks. And we introduce kids to nature and we do like mud play, things where they have to identify homes for animals.

We look for animals and we look for, you know, wasp nests and things that, you know, just shows.

Paper wasps, things like that. To kind of these small, you know, these little guys.

Things that are overlooked that you would never see and pay attention to.

And then we read stories, we have puppets. And we do that whole kind of thing to really engage them with nature, kind of like look what's here. So it's a great program, but yeah.

We do that for adults, right?

I mean, people forget, people just forget. I forgot, I just started taking care of my landscaping around my house. And like my son and I share now a vast and deep love for worms, they're just cool. Like they're, some of them are really big. And when you find like a really big one, it's nuts. And it's like, when's the last time something you went and saw worms somewhere and we're excited by it? Like it's a special type of feeling that we should all try to capture as much as possible. And if you can, it's all good. But I mean, like there is a magic and an innocence to it. And I think that's what we gravitate towards with nature because it's not, it's the word I'm looking for conditioned by us in any way, 'cause we know we didn't do anything to make that tree grow and that beautiful waterfall.

Like wherever you are, you didn't do it physically. Get into the metaphysical and the esoteric painting behind it, but the point is is like, there's an aspect of being able to let go and enjoy something when it's like that, 'cause it's not like, you're not dealing with the you that had to do something to make it. So I love nature too, it's the best. I've just recently rediscovered how important it is and that if you, especially if you're in a place like here, like the city and I live upstate now, but like if you don't get out in it enough or have a connection with it even in the midst of the city, it can drive nuts and you might not even know it.

You might not know what you're missing 'cause you're not in it, it's crazy.

There's a bunch of papers now on nature deficit disorder, they're calling it.

Yeah, and then I was even watching something recently, it was like about phobias and this woman actually had a phobia to the outdoors that they just, and it kind of extended to the entire family. So because she didn't wanna go outdoors, you know, and the kids were kind of would longingly look up.

Look, she's like a cat at the window, just like I wish I could go out.

Yeah, but the parents just all their free time was spent indoors and that's, you know. And we also, you know, we have like a vitamin D deficiency, people are taking pills for vitamin D. Well, you know, it's, it's--

Sun, just goin' sun.

Yeah, but yeah.

It naturally happened, let me ask you this. So wouldn't you say, and I mean, I know that the herbs and the plants led you on this path which coincided with you kind of pulling yourself out of it, but don't you think there's also a very big connection between your inner state of how you're feeling and what steps you're taking to maybe feel better or how you're feeling and what you allow yourself to do out in the world, you know what I mean? Like when you were drinking a lot of soda, you're feeling differently internally before you go and drink the soda is the truth. That's what's so fascinating to me about this is like, I hear the echo of like a past version of me when we're talking about nature and being like, yeah, that sounds good, but like eh, eh, I'd rather play a video game or I'd rather do this, not that there's anything wrong with those things at all, but tuned out to this thing.

But I noticed now that I feel like really, really, really, really good internally, I fucking love nature. That's why I walked here. Normally I'd jump in a car and be here on time, but I was like, you know what? I'll sacrifice being on time a little bit 'cause I get to walk in like this awesome city and granted it's not nature, but it's people and it's the same thing, you're outside. So there seems to be a very profound connection between what's going on up here in your head and what happens out in the world. That to me is what I've been thinking about a lot these past few months.

Yeah, it's completely true, it's completely true. And shifting that internal state, sometimes you need to just get yourself out there. Even if you sit on your stoop and you haven't showered, you didn't want to get off your couch, you feel terrible, you need coffee to survive, we'll just have that coffee on your stoop.

Have the coffee, have the joint, do the thing that you need to do to get you in the mind state that you can actually just, you don't have to feel better all of the time right away, but start with the little crack of feeling better and then expand it and you open the door and you walk through it. - Exactly, yeah.

I mean, like, I've had this conversation with several people before where they come to me and they tell me, oh, I'm feeling this, this and this and I do like an evaluation, I'm like, okay. And then I'll ask them, well, what's your lifestyle like? And they'll tell me and I give them advice about their lifestyle, what changes they should possibly consider making because no, and then they'll come back, oh, it's not working. And it's like, well, if you don't change your lifestyle, no, no matter how much herbs you take, they might kind of be a band-aid in a way

Everything is like that. - Yeah, but it's not, it's not gonna work if you're not putting in that extra work, if you're sleeping three hours a night, you're, you know, you're eating only like fast food, but then you're taking your nettle and your red clover, like, sure, you'll get, you're getting your vitamins, but I mean, you still are gonna feel pretty crappy. And you'll know it too. That's the thing you can't fool yourself. Now what's weird and interesting is there are people who can eat like absolute crap. Now, I don't think over long periods of time, but there are people and still be healthy and all their vitamins are good and all these other things.

So there's something to be said for mind over matter, but if you know you're kind of cheating, it's like, I really like to watch or I did, whenever we go to the beach, we have a house there and I have a condo and they have cable and I never watch cable, but there's like the reality shows and I would watch my 600-pound life. And it's the simplest thing. These people get very, very fat, they're very unhappy. It's affecting their family adversely and they go to the doctor, the sky, Dr. Nas. Nas, I forget his name, anyway. And he himself is not in like the peak physical shape, by the way, but he's like compared to them, he's looking pretty good.

So he basically tells them it's a very simple formula. You eat less and you lose weight. And so inevitably what ends up happening, like some people really make the change because they're basically losing weight to get like lap and surgery, so they can really start like using a lot of weight, but you'll inevitably get people who will go back and they're all on camera. They're being filmed and you see them eating what they're not supposed to be and then they'll go to the appointment and they'll weigh and he's like, you gain nine pounds and they're like, that's impossible. Like, how did it, and it's like, there's dude, we just watched you do it.

And it's not bringing this up to shit on those people. I'm bringing up as an example of what we do to ourselves internally to make ourselves like, oh, well, you know what? I'm gonna take just the red clover. I'm gonna take the nettle. I still have allergies, I still feel depressed, I still feel stuck and it's like, well, what else are you doing? Like, don't, you can't trick yourself, you know, so.

You know, you know, but it's also, you know, we are creatures of habit and habits are really hard to break.

They can be.

But you can, of course, they can be, they can be, but it's, you know, it can be very difficult. But even like with the infusions, you know, it's something where you can make it a habit 'cause a lot of like the T infusions, they do better if you let them steep for about eight hours, especially if you, things that are more dense, like roots and bark, things like that. So if you do it right before you go to bed, then you let it steep while you're sleeping. And so it's like a nice like, okay, winding down. And I always tell them, I'm like, how do I want to feel tomorrow?

See, see. I'm all right. I was debating whether to go over the technique in the episode 'cause like at this point, everyone who's listening is gonna hurt, have hurt it a million times, but it's still worth reviewing for people who haven't and you haven't heard it. So this is my realization that I've come to over the past three and a half, four months, has radically changed my life in every possible way. Like I finally feel like I'm the person who I was supposed to be and that sounds all great conceptually. Your imagination creates reality. And I don't mean this in a conceptual, intellectual, like sure guy, that sounds good.

I mean, we can empirically test this. I've heard throughout this episode, something that makes me very happy is that you're a scientist, you are reading papers, you trust the method of science, empiricism. It's very important because what empiricism is at the end of the day, it's direct experience. That's all it is. So the theory and the premise in my direct experience validates this is that stable, imaginal acts create reality. So if we believe a certain herb has certain properties and that's been embedded in our consciousness and the collective unconscious for generations, lo and behold, it does.

What this also allows us to do internally is change our minds, change habits, change the way we look at the world, most importantly, change ourselves because then we see it reflected back to us. Again, this is all great, but it's not particularly practical. However, there are a series of techniques that you can test and one, you basically just mentioned it, how do I wanna feel tomorrow? You're setting the intention into your subconscious mind, you're then drifting into sleep and it's impregnated with that desire of how I wanna feel and then the next day it emerges. A lot of people do this intuitively, but of those people who do it intuitively, many of them don't realize you can do this for anything.

I don't mean just your internal states of consciousness. I do kinda mean that, but I mean material things and it's not the law of attraction or the secret, which I have not read, but people have explained to me what the metaphysical properties are that you draw things towards you. You think of something, you are tracking. No, that's not what it is. That works because people believe it, so it works. Of course, it's a stable, imaginal act, but what you do is you plant the seed, we're gonna stick with the nature theme, you plant the seed into your subconscious, know what you did, let it happen, and then it happens.

So here's the technique. It's very simple and there's multiple, but this one is particularly good for future outcomes or things unfolding in this world. So you identify a desire, you identify a wish, you will have many of them, everyone does. You can go big, you can go small, doesn't matter, it's gonna be to the degree that you wanna do it and you'll figure out what the thing is. You identify that here while we're awake in this world. Then you enter a drowsy like state, hypnagogic people would call it the liminal boundary between going to sleep and being asleep. This could be done in a comfortable chair during the day, but a really good time to do it is when you're going to sleep at night 'cause you're naturally doing this.

As you're going into this space and it's not holy, it's not perfect, it's relaxed attention, it's not something like don't freak out about it, you can smoke weed, you can drink, you can do whatever the fuck you wanna do, kava, whatever you wanna do. You get into this space and you construct a scene in your imagination, everyone knows how to do it, close your eyes, imagine you're at the beach, you're there, that's what I'm talking about. You construct an imaginal scene that implies your desire, a scene that implies it has already happened, that the wish has been fulfilled. So for instance, let's say we wanted a new job, our promotion at our job.

What I would imagine in this scene is a friend hugging me or shaking my hand and say congrats on the new job and I go, thanks. This scene is gonna be very short, compact, and it's gonna have exactly as much sensory vividness as this world. Load up all the senses that you can. The key, more than the sensory vividness, is you feel how you would feel if the wish had been fulfilled. That's why it's following the thing, not the means, the end, you live from the end. You lock in that state of consciousness, and you go to sleep, or you wake up. Now this is where we have to negotiate that the thing we imagined, if it's inner peace or lots of money, when we open our eyes, it's not going to be there most likely.

So that's when we have to negotiate this world relative to what we just imagined. If you truly understand your imagination creates reality, you understand what this world is. It's an after effect. It's just, it's a dead world. It's not in a bad way, like a scary way. It just is an after effect. So you don't use it to gain insight into what actually happened. So for some people, this is very uncomfortable because it's the exact opposite of how we think the world works. But if you empirically test it, this is where scientists sometimes can have issues with it because it's like, this is wrong. I look at the world to gain insight.

That's how we know things. Stop telling me it's before. But if you empirically test this, what eventually ends up happening is you keep walking into the dream over and over and over and over and over. And at a certain point, you're rational and analytical mind. It's like, all right, I give up. The resistance is usually crop up because what I'm saying here essentially is that you're creating your entire reality and that's what everyone is doing. What the ramifications and implications of that are, you're responsible for everything. Literally everything. Including all of the people who annoy you, all of the situations, all of the suffering.

It's all you and your logical and analytical mind doesn't wanna deal with that shit. It's like, nah, I'm good. I wanna still blame other things 'cause like, yeah, I don't think you can handle that, buddy. It's all good. It actually is amazing when you take on the responsibility because you can do pretty magical and amazing things. All I'll say is whether it's going back to school or money or being a more effective proponent and getting this out in the world in a more effective way, use these techniques. Use that technique. Just try it empirically and watch what happens. Don't use it if your life is very comfortable and you enjoy it.

It's not that you won't enjoy it and it will become uncomfortable but it will flip your whole shit upside down. It's like getting popped out of the Matrix. It's fucking insane. Eventually you start just stabilizing states of consciousness and you can pretty much, it's like a lucid dream. It's fucking nuts. It's the best thing ever. I'm quite positive. It's the reason we're here and it's quite liberating but that's why I recommend this technique because if you're bumping into habits of resistance, you're talking about a modality here that is undeniably powerful. Undeniable, you know this, I mean, you study this.

This is your life now but some people are sensing that it's a powerful modality. If you combine that with the directional awareness, what I'm referring to is the masculine energy, the conscious awareness of a desire and pregnant it in the subconscious or unconscious and you use herbs as the physical kind of like vessel for this stuff. I mean, you're literally changing the world. You're eating, you're planting the seeds of how to eat into pharmaceutical companies, profits. You're teaching people how to take care of themselves. What you said more than anything that resonates with me is anyone can do this.

Anyone can, that's the hallmark of real wisdom and truth. If only some people can do it, nope, it's not it. It's relatively true. If it's absolutely true, anyone can do it. That's why this shit is powerful. Sorry to get sidetracked but I had to share that.

No, no, no, that's just, that's just like, you know, it's further kind of go mickey. Like you're on the right track and everything. You know, it's totally, it's totally true. And that's why like, like I think I had mentioned that I even do like free walks like around the city because I want to show everyone that it's like, one, anybody, you know, can do it. It's just about, you know, learning how to recognize it. It's, so many of these medicinal herbs, funny enough, are what we consider weeds everywhere.

That's why I purposely call weed by the way. That's why people are like, you should call cannabis. I'm like, I don't call it cannabis. But I love calling it weed because how are you overlooking this is the best thing ever? You call it a weed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, somebody, geez, I just saw a quote and it, got him and it's escaping me. But it was something like a weed is just a plant whose medicinal attributes have yet to be discovered.

Perfect. You know, I get forgotten.

That's such a great metaphor for people too.

Right, yeah.

If you look at a difficult person, it's just a person who hasn't discovered who they really are yet and what they're supposed to share. Plants, that is amazing. That's so cool.

But it's just, it's a really cool process, you know, just starting to kind of just start from there. And it really just, it does change your life. I mean, I know it changed my life and I love when people come back to me and, or even like text me and go, oh my God, I went to your walk like two weeks ago and I stepped outside my house today and there's a birdock plant there and I never realized that there was a birdock plant right in front of my house, you know? And it's probably been, it's been growing the entire season.

The tire of it is insane.

You know, exactly. And so they'll be like, oh my God, you know? And I love like, you know, hearing back like that 'cause then they'll go and just change because now they're like, I went to this place and I volunteered at a farm this weekend and we were removing a lot of weeds and there was stinging nettle. I love stinging nettle. I purposely like stinging myself with stinging nettle.

'Cause it'll give you, it's like an allergy shot.

Yeah, yeah, it's really effective. It's funny enough to also another side thing with nettle. Is it pumps you full of histamine? So that's what causes the reaction, right? But funny enough itself, if you were to like take it, it's full of antihistamine.

You see the metaphor.

It's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

It's beautiful, it's beautiful. But yeah, but the people were getting stung and some people, you know, obviously they had an aversion to the pain. So they were just like, you know, it really hurts. Like they wanted to stop it. And I was telling them, well, often it's often said that when you see stinging nettle, it's interesting how the ecology works. But you often see plantain growing nearby or jewelry growing nearby. In this case, both were growing nearby. Both are very soothing to nettle stings.

How about that? Right there, next to it.

Right there. And so a lot of people were asking me 'cause I pointed it out plantain out to one person and they put it on their leg. And within a few minutes, they were like, it really helped. And then the other people were like, what was that plant? You know? And I was showing them and they were like, that's plantain, right? I was like, yeah. And by the end of the day, I'm like watching and then people even got mosquito bites and they were doing it.

It's gonna say did it with a banana once and it works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like the mucilage and everything. It's really calming. It's really soothing to bug bites and like sting itchiness, yeah.

It's so interesting, right next to you, someone's freaking out about this thing and it's right next to them, the cure.

Exactly, exactly. And I feel sometimes, you know, it's just like that. It's a, the growth is occurring like right in that ecosystem. But then sometimes plants just find you. I know that might sound weird to some people, but plants really just find you. And I have a thing that people who come to my walks regularly, they know it's like my thing. Where I'll literally, I have a plant in mind, let's say that I really wanna show everyone and it's the end of the walk and I couldn't find it. And I say it out loud and I say, you know what? I wish I could find some garlic mustard to show you guys because I really want it to one of my favorite herbs, but I can't believe, you know, of all the times, it's not here and we'll walk like a few more feet and there will be a patch of garlic mustard and it keeps happening.

And so it's like my thing now where I'm like, I purposely say it out loud and let's see if we can find it. And then it's sure fire has worked.

So Jocelyn, I think you should try this for things besides plants and see what happens.

I'm gonna do $100.

It sounds silly, but it sounds silly, but--

No, no, yeah, man, it's weird how reality actually works when you tap into it.

Yeah, like even when you were talking about that technique, it was reminding me a lot of like my work with flower essences. And so I did an apprenticeship with Linda Cohen. She's amazing, she's actually holding like a whole, she's opening up a new apprenticeship like a month from now. And it really works. I went in very, like I have that science background, but I'm like, no, you gotta explore this other side. It's there for a reason, you know.

You need to look up your astrological signs, your sun moon-- - I was looking, yeah, I think.

Do you know your-- - I'm a tourist and I think it-- - Makes sense. Sun sign, Taurus. - Air, air, breeze.

Rising or moon? - Rising or moon, moon.

You gotta look it up.

Yeah, so that's what I'm starting to get into that. But, yeah, I went in really skeptical because the whole point of flower essence therapy is it works with your emotions. So it's not, you're using a lot of the medicinal herbs, but used very different ways. And so, you know, I went in kind of going, you know, let's see, but it really changed. And funny enough, one of the first herbal essences that I worked with was spreading flocks. And that's like for opening up your networks, for like reaching out. And I was like, okay, I'll pick this one to work with first. And I've never seen spreading flocks in my entire life in person, never.

I'm, you know, the little vial comes with a picture of the plant, I researched the plant 'cause that's what you get like a bunch that you have to research and work with. And then that's like your homework. And it's the first one I'm working with. And I'm literally walking, I get out of my apartment like two, three days later, I'm walking to the subway. And I look down at the corner of, once I get to the corner of my block, and it's a patch of spreading flocks on my block. And I literally looked at it, I took a picture and I even posted it on this forum on Facebook, like for plant identification.

And I was like, is this spreading flocks or am I crazy? And people are like, no, it's spreading flocks. (laughing) You know, so I took about, I take those kinds of synchronicities, those kinds of things and I, like their checkpoints for me. So it's kind of telling me I'm on the--

It's you telling me. This is my saying now, I coined this one. I can claim, my claim the fame on this quotable is life is a symphony of synchronicities. And you're the conductor. And the song you're conducting is one to wake you up to who you really are. That's all it is. It's just us playing this song. It's amazing. It's the funnest, most awesome thing, but when magic starts to enter into the world, not as a concept, but as a reality, it gets very, very fun. So we're at the end here. I wanna, before we get to, I asked three questions then, one at the end. Where can people find out more about you, what you're doing, your organization, all of this stuff?

Yes.

And I'll have links, but just say it, so people--

Yeah, yeah, of course.

And so I have a website. So it's www.urbangarden.co, but Urban is H-E-R-B-A-N-Garden.co. And in there, I should have links to everything. I have the Facebook page. I have a link to the Meetup. So I'm the organizer for the Herbalists Meetup of New York.

Awesome.

And then I'm also the coordinator for Herbalists without borders, the New York Queen. We're based in Queen, but it's the New York City chapter. So we're doing all that, and we're part of the New York Herbal Response Network as well. And so I should have all those links. Yeah, I do have them all on their website. So if anybody's interested to join, they're all free to join. So, and then I post about my walks, which are free as well. And so, you know, that's open to everyone. All ages bring your dogs, everyone.

That's so awesome. All right, question time. What's your favorite color?

Purple.

What's your favorite number?

Four.

What's your favorite animal?

I see that.

I think it's all you want.

You can name two.

Okay, a cat and a horse.

Cool, cool, cool, cool. Cat horse.

Yes, cat horse.

Last question. What's a practical tip that's helped you in your life that you could share with people listening?

It might sound kind of way, but be gentle with yourself. So I think that's just be more gentle with yourself. We tend to be very coarse with ourselves.

Yeah, especially in this country, it's kind of reinforced out there, but recognize you have control over it. That's a very, very, very good practical tip. Jocelyn, thank you so much for doing this.

Of course, thank you, thank you. This was awesome.

My pleasure, yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Thanks for listening to that episode. Go check out Jocelyn, Urban Garden, A-T-E-R-B-A-N, Garden. She's in New York, there's free walking tours. There's all this shit, it's the fucking best. What are you doing? Stop wasting your time, stop being a dork. I lived in New York for so long, like in the city. I didn't do shit. Like my friends would invite me out for stuff. I'm like, no, I'm just, but I mean, listen, look at me wrong. If I can lift it up, if I can love it in the city, but I did not take advantage while I was there. And now, now that I'm like a couple hours away, whenever I go in, I'm like, gosh, this car, do that.

I gotta see this person, I do it. Just eventually gonna get a place there, obviously. But still, fucking go to this stuff. Go to Whitma, go to Urban Garden, Pores with Jocelyn. Like get the fuck out there, these are my peeps. Do it, do it. That's what my ad should be for the Ned People, it's just, use my co-ho-ho-ho-ho. Can't even make fun of it effectively here. Anyway, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Lots of guests coming soon. I talk to people, they come on, I yak about imagination, they give me funny looks, they tell me what they're actually gonna say. Okay, anyway, that's it. Happy imagining, I will see you soon.

Bye bye.