My Mom, Donna Burns Talks Weed and Psychedelics

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Welcome to Synchronicity. My guest this week is my mom, Donna Barnes. She's here to talk about weed. She calls a cannabis. Psychedelic stuff she's doing with Dennis McKenna's McKenna Academy. Just a lot of cool stuff related. To that we start in this podcast getting into the nitty gritty of kind of where weed starts. Weed starts? I don't know. Is that a good description of what I did? In New York State, basically where legalization stands, what's some of the things she and her colleagues over at New York Small Pharma are advocating for. And you know, just from there, we get into like other stuff and it's fun and it's cool.

And she's my mom and I love her. And you're gonna love this episode. It's super fun. Since this is an episode about weed, it's a wonderful time to mention, they get a couple shout outs in this episode anyway, but let's do the actual promo form. The guys at Ned, helloned.com, do you know about them yet? The guys who are doing CBD, it's a full spectrum hemp oil, a lot of other cool products. Just redesign their websites, websites, website. Just cool guys, like they, you'll hear me mention them a few times in this episode 'cause we bring up CBD and we bring up cannabis and kind of the therapeutic effects, but they get the holistic picture of what this is about.

There are people who are in this for money, financial reasons, there are people who are in this for wanting to get in because it's cool. There are people who genuinely care about it. The guys at Ned actually do. So if you're interested in trying CBD for the first time or you're looking for a brand that's actually you can feel good about, the guys at Ned are amazing, helloned.com. If you use the code sync, S-Y-N-C at checkout, you get 15% off your order. So go ahead and do that, support good people, doing good shit, they're cool. I love them. This episode, I had to get that in there 'cause it's like the perfect dovetail and tie into this episode.

This is a cool episode, it's my mom. I don't know what else to say, she's cool. There are links to everything that go on. We talk about in this episode, New York Small Pharma, the McKenna Academy. She has a website, she didn't promote it at all. I don't, you know, wake up and eat.com. She's like one of the best cooks I've ever met. It's incredible. If you're into vegan, healthy stuff that is actually really good and you can actually wanna turn on people to healthy eating that doesn't suck, wake up and eat.com is her website. She would never mention that, I think. She's so focused on the goal of weed and psychedelics.

She's no time for the food stuff. We gotta talk about a lot more. She knows a lot about a ton of shit. I'm sure I'll have her back on soon. I'm going to Turkey, guys. Listen, there's a map. You can look it up of how worthless the US passport is. There's like four places in the world I can travel to. Mexico, I don't even think Canada is letting. Is Canada letting us in? Mexico, Canada, Tanzania and Turkey. There's maybe one other country. This is the only places I can go to. I happen to fall in love with someone who's from Turkey so I get to go there. So that's happening. I'll be on the road. I'm bringing my recorder.

I just upgraded to the Zoom H6. So that's great. Bringing a couple of mics, bringing my guitar, my acoustic. So it's gonna be a fun travel expedition. I'm gonna be able to post as regular and I'll give you dispatches from abroad. And I'll let it, you know, it's like to travel internationally during Corona. It's gonna be fun. So that's going on. Stay tuned for that. Patrons, there is the smoke session tonight at APM. I swear we did it. We fucking did it. I'm gonna go out to dinner before. Get all my shit in order. Good, good for you for hanging in there. I've rescheduled this thing twice 'cause it's fucking, it was mercury retrograde and then I was getting my shit together.

So I'm always getting my shit together. Let's be clear. But anyway, that's going on. If you're interested in that, you'll hear more about it on the flip side for patrons. Okay, that's it. Jesus. Whew, can you tell him about to leave? Can you tell him about to leave somewhere for a month? Yeah, okay. Without further ado, here is my mom. She's so cool. Donna Burns. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

That box?

This.

Yeah.

What is that thing called?

It's a Zoom reporter.

Right.

And it records audio.

Didn't you have something like that before? Or somebody else I know had it.

I had something exactly like this. But it was the, this is a two versions later.

Okay.

Okay, welcome to Synchronicity.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

How are you?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm good.

Good.

We're here to talk about weed, right?

Yep, we're here to talk about cannabis. And whatever else comes up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about what you want to talk about then. You're the guest.

Well, thank you, is that my introduction?

That's your, I mean, so this is true. I actually, you're not the first person who's caught off guard by that. I do an intro before where I explain who the guest is in the context of what's going on. So it's usually we just start talking.

Okay, so we just start talking. So you've already explained where I am and I'm your mom and my, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people like, also I found that like, sometimes when people have to explain who they are, it's like they have too much of like a spiel or an idea. So we just have a regular conversation.

Okay, great.

I'll do the burden falls on me to accurately describe who you are.

Or even ask a question.

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, you know, we came because we, I mean, it's good to have you on the podcast for any reason, but you have been doing a lot of work around cannabis in New York state, and which is something that, I mean, you've known me my entire life. I've been very interested in avid endorser of cannabis and legalization, and you also have been places where you see that it's like totally legal and fine. And in New York, it's not. So you're kind of like at the grassroots level, like with the legislation. So this is a good platform to talk about that.

Well, that's great. Yeah, thank you. Well, so I am from New York originally, my born born there and now live here. I'm glad you live here too. I haven't seen that many states or any, if I really think about it where it's legal and it's working out great, it's working out better, but it's definitely not working out great.

I am on the board of a couple of organizations. One, you've already probably announced is the mysmallformer.org, and we do work to try to bring adult-use cannabis into New York in a smart way, like in the best way that's out there, that it doesn't exist but should exist.

Right, what does that mean?

So that means we see the cannabis plant as a way to change everything about how crops are grown, how plants are grown, how society functions, everything. And so what's happened in other places basically is this has become a big business. The same guys you see walk into any other business with their suits and their briefcases and their club clubby club run the business and everybody else got to play by their rules. So you're gonna get like the big corporate cannabis and that's what you get. And maybe if they feel a little pressured they'll let some little teeny teeny players around the edges or they'll still be what we call the unlicensed market or don't call it the black market anymore, don't call it the illicit market.

It's just unlicensed and it's out there and that's the legacy.

I think it's important to not use the nomenclature of black or gray or illicit because it's not on a substance. But like no one's talking about like people who are making their own pickles or hot sauce as like the illicit hot sauce.

Right, exactly and I mean, and this is a plant and that's the whole thing. It all comes back to the plant. And you know, it's interesting 'cause the president of the organization, Andy Novick, who I think you had as a guest one time, some episodes ago, maybe a year or two years, whenever it was. She really-- - Last year or two years ago?

Probably was last year. - Last year?

Yeah, yeah, over a year ago. I mean, it seems like a lifetime. I mean, the last six months of it.

That's why it does seem like way, way, way longer.

Yeah, but you know, it's really started with this and this is what captivated me 'cause I mean, you know I'm a gardener. I mean, I love plants. I have the plant medicine plants. I mean, I'm so into it sitting here just giving you these plant tinctures that are antiviral and immune boosting. I mean, plants are amazing. And so this plant has been basically demonized. You know, for a good cause in the minds of the demonizers, it was racism.

200. - Yeah, yeah.

Because, you know, I'll pick up this plant where we can get all the Mexicans and the blacks and we'll just demonize. And so this plant, it's like it's time to come into its own. And so she really has spearheaded this vision where the plant is used in a way to change everything. And the way that works is it's grown in a way, it's business operated in a way that promotes us coming together. We regenerate the land, we regenerate the communities, we regenerate our personal businesses. We can all, you know, if you talk a little bit, I found, I know the last time I spoke to her, what I thought was really interesting, I didn't know about was the land stuff and how it's regenerative from like a physiological standpoint, can you talk about that?

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, there's a whole, we could go for hours on regenerative agriculture. And you wouldn't want me to talk about it. You'd want someone much more knowledgeable. And they're out there. One of our advisors runs a group, Ben Dobson. And he is expert on regenerative agriculture.

I've never let not being knowledgeable on a subject prevent me from talking about it. (laughing)

You can hear on that though.

Yeah, I agree. So, when certain plants grow, they help remediate the soil. And all plants, however, sequester carbon. They draw the extra carbon dioxide out of the air.

It's bad for us to breathe.

And bring it into the soil and actually reverse, you know, some of the problems that we have with the greenhouse gases. And it's a way to heal the land. I mean, and the practice is if you grow anything in it, not just the cannabis, but tomatoes or any kind of crops, heal the earth and so puts it back into a better balance. And so the idea of having your cannabis grown that way is extremely appealing. On the one hand, we're healing the earth. On the other hand, we are taking like nutrient dense plant material and consuming it. And that's super important because you're basically always using cannabis on or in your body.

I mean, it's the way you use it.

Yeah. That's how the only way to use it, right? I mean, is there any other... You use it, well, industrially for hemp and stuff, right?

Yeah.

So aren't there like a multiple applications for... It's basically using every aspect of the plant, not just from its production standpoint, but also even using it as part of the agricultural process to like... Also, there's another really cool aspect about it too, is the farming aspect and what it can do for communities and people itself because I mean, everyone is theoretically for ecological improvements. Like, this is a big school of... Something that changed my mind is like these corporations like Monsanto and these... Well, we consider like kind of unethical or not helpful for the planet.

They're just serving systems that reward them for that behavior. If you shift the value of the system to making the planet better, making it easier, the systems will do that. It's not like these people have a vested interest in being shitty. It's just that they have a vested interest in making money or getting value out of something, but this seems like something for communities, for people's health. I mean, no one's a bigger advocate for the plant itself, but so from a legislative standpoint or like plugging this into what we would call 3D world in Wuland, like, how do you craft something that enables, like, let's say I'm someone who just really loves weed and I wanna become a weed farmer and cultivator and sell my weed at a farmer's market.

How, what does that look like in terms of, like, a legislative process and, like, how that comes about?

Right, no, that's a great vision because I think that's exactly one thing that NYU Small Farmer is trying to see come about, that you could do that. So you have to change your whole going-in picture. So the way it has been envisioned, for the most part, and especially when it started out this way, is this is a drug and we are going to regulate it like a drug. - Right.

And you have to stop and say this is a plant, this is a crop, this is something that will, has potential to interact from the beginning with society. So you're not viewing it as a big business to get the most efficiency, to get the most profits, to have the best production. You're doing- - Which is a fundamental shift of how it's being left out.

It's a fundamental shift and that's what you're saying about the systems and I completely agree with you. So the rewards do have to be something that we all participate in, which is one of the things when you asked about changing the legislature or the governor or any lawmaker in any particular organization is to have those, the voices come out or make it clear, this is what we value. I mean, this moment right now is really intense and intense, certainly in a lot of people's mind in a bad way, but also in a very good way because there's so much potential because everything's so uncertain and up in the air, not that it always isn't, but it's apparent now how uncertain things are.

And so there's an opportunity to say, we're not just gonna say, give us the same business as usual, you know, licensees and you come up with your $750,000 investment. They do a small operation and a couple of million to do that. Let's throw that out the window and get to something where it's really a craft and micro-business and cooperative model. So those are the kinds of people we license. Smaller people. So it brings it home to a different way. And anyone who's growing, let's say, 50 plants or 20 plants or some small amount of plants or in a small area, there's no need to have those practices that you, you know, that use synthetic chemicals.

And frankly, there's no need to grow this plant in a closet. It was in a closet for a reason because it was an underground thing. The plant itself will surprise anyone who's a dedicated outdoor grow person because it will produce in connection with that soil, amazing properties.

So I don't, I mean, I try to, Andy spoke about this last time too about the indoor outdoor, which I think makes a lot of sense just from like a natural standpoint. That said, indoor cultivation definitely, I feel like has its place as well as a business model. And this is where it gets a little interesting in terms of like potency versus financial reward versus volume versus like what is natural, what's not. I don't know where I stand on all of those issues, but I do know that, you know, it makes sense that it shouldn't be restricted. And like I do feel like a lot of the indoor cultivation strategies are born out of not being able to primarily grow it outside.

I know in a lot of places where it does grow outside, well, like Mendocino and all of these places in Northern California, like that weed was actually prized well before all these indoor cultivation tactics took place. So there's something to be said for that too.

Yeah, and absolutely. And you know, I don't want to forget this 'cause this is an essential point. So the indoor cultivation, the energy usage of indoor cultivation is staggering to grow four plants inside takes as much energy as running 29 refrigerators full time.

Yeah, I mean--

It's shocking and so it's actually actively harming the environment unnecessarily. And to the point about like the potency and so forth, I was just talking to someone who is in regular contact with a lot of regenerative farmers in California. And one was talking about their strain that they've been working really hard and that's 33% THC. It's basically unsmocable is what he said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's outside.

Not the measured effects. I mean, these days, if you buy weed and it's packaged in any way, they give you the THC percentages. I also know from having had weed tested that was grown by me that the vast majority of these testing facilities are also like, they're not super on the up and up. Like there's a lot of like--

Some are, some aren't. I mean, I think there's a certainly a race to be certifiers of good practices. And I think it's important we need that because when you're buying it and I don't buy that so I don't know how that works. But well, you know, if you recall, we went to Massachusetts one time.

Yeah, that's not cool.

But you know, a lot of these things are testing bad hot, they call it for chemicals and other things. In fact, acreage holdings in Massachusetts, you know, John Boehner's up shop. They were testing hot on several things. They were violating, it may have been in the same article. It may not have been there, but evaluating all of the rules to restrict them to a certain level. I mean, they're just going out, this is another, you know, fast money.

Well, I mean, I think this is also something that people can figure out how they want to, like a lot of people I think are just becoming aware of the distinction between really high quality cannabis and not so good stuff. And they're, it's subjective to a point, like some people like different things, but some people like to be sleepy. That said, the cleaner and more kind of, I don't know, with the more awareness and care, it's like any plant, the more like love and attention you put into it, it's like anything, the better the psychological, therapeutic, medicinal effects will be. So if it's just viewed as like Budweiser, like here, have another one, have another cigarette, have another weed cigarette, it's not going to really reveal the true power of the plant, whether it's the medicinal or, you know, any other aspect of it.

So I do think maintaining that and allowing that to prosper is essential. So again, like, what does it look like though, from like, how do you approach it when you're dealing with the governor's office, like, what is that like?

The law, the law, I just wanna, I'm gonna answer that in one second, I'm just gonna make one more point about that, any plant, because it's like tomatoes. We were talking about this at our board meeting, yesterday, for my small farmer, 'cause we do meet regularly to talk about our strategy and our education efforts and our outreach, and you grow tomatoes for different purposes. So it's like that with cannabis or any other plant, you're gonna grow a little cherry tomatoes for your salad, but you're gonna grow paste tomatoes for your sauce and you're gonna grow beef steak tomatoes, well, not beef steak, but, you know, an heirloom variety, brandy wine for your sandwich.

And so that same thing could be--

You can use beef steak for sandwiches.

I know, I don't like beef steak, they're hybrid, and I don't like beef steak type, we'll call it. But to go back to the legislature, 'cause it's not, so there's an apparatus when any kind of legal and policy decision comes into play. And in New York, not surprisingly, it's more complicated than other places, you know, it's just more complicated than they have, and these people have their positions and their offices and their protocols and so forth. And in New York, the governor has been proposing the law with, would your listeners know this? Is this too complicated?

No.

Okay, the governor's proposing in the budget, his prerogative as the governor, how the cannabis should work. And so he has a proposal and it's been out there since January and you go and you, for anything, anybody wants to do and you should do, all you actually have to do is look online, find out who the person is you want to talk to, call up and say, I'd like to have a meeting with so-and-so, and usually they'll give you a staff person, which is fine, and you go to Albany, which I completely recommend, I had no idea, and I have been, as you know, over 30 years in Washington, DC, and Albany, the building is amazing.

I mean, this is like the most amazing building I've ever been in. It's kind of like out of the movie, Brazil, with those elevators and so forth. Anyway, you go and you have your meeting and you talk about the provisions of the law or what you want 'cause he happened and so that's what we've done. And then the legislature has a parallel track and they come up with their own things and right now there's a bill that has been introduced and it's in the New York State legislature and it's in active discussions. And so what you do, same thing there, you go and you talk to the people and you ask them, you know, whatever questions and you find out where they're at.

And one thing that we have done is made sure that we've educated both Democrats, liberals, Republicans, conservatives, people who are opposed, everybody. And for the, if your, you know, assembly member or state senator is opposed to cannabis legalization, you could ask them the very question. We looked them in the eye and smiled and said, okay, but this is going to happen. So how do you want it to happen? Do you wanna be on the side of helping the healthier citizens, helping their small, you know, business opportunities or opposing that 'cause that's what's gonna come down.

How do they react to that?

You know, they, some laugh nervously. Some hear you and they are genuinely interested. There have been a couple of people who we've spoken with and we've gone back to them. So what you do is then you go back. You have your first meeting and then you go back and you fulfill, you offer to do some work for them. All law and policy, as far as I can tell, in this country and the state, local, every level and federal, especially I know, is made by outside people doing a lot of the work. Like you give them-- - 'Cause they don't wanna do it 'cause they're just the people who succumb to the pressure of the will of what we've done.

And theoretically that's their job, the will of the people, but it's, you know, it's not even that there's any ill motives for a lot of people, they're lazy or they don't wanna, they can't, you know, so-- - Not sustainable.

But it's, they'll collect the viewpoints and so we've showed, you know, why some of the legislative language that they've proposed is really gonna screw people.

They don't intend. - Ordinary New Yorkers, you know, at this point, there's this notion that if we just tax it and it's very tempting in this corona time to just say, okay, we're just gonna take a tax, we'll take the tax money and we'll have $300 million extra, yay.

Yeah. - But it's so short-sighted because New Yorkers are estimated to spend $3 billion on cannabis. I mean, you know, there's heavy cannabis--

Within what? - A year, a year.

Within a year of legalization.

No, currently, it's just an estimate.

Where we're at. - That would include, yeah. That would include the legacy market, you know, whatever's coming in from California, wherever it's coming from.

Seems like it'd be more than that. - Add to your pocket. And maybe it is more. So the theory is is, you know, you get a certain amount and you get, you tax it and then you end up with this money. But the reason it's short-sighted is 'cause you could say, okay, well, let's have the $3 billion be recirculated into the local economy. So you go down to your farmer's market and you sell at the farmer's market and then you go and use the rest of the money to buy something else. And you go to the hardware store, you go--

Well, it's contingent, though, on keeping it in a local economy, though, isn't it?

Well, it's so awesome because what, in addition to so many things, what has this virus time laid bare? Supply chains don't work. Like the way we've set it up.

I mean, do they or don't they?

They don't, they don't. First of all, do you have Amazon Prime?

Yes. - How's that working out for you? Good enough, though.

No, it's like a fucking thing.

No, do you want to know what's really true about the Amazon Prime? I saw you, I'd do it. Your grandson, he ordered, you know, be like, what cars do you want sometimes? And he gets excited and we'll order these toy cars. And I shit you not, this kid came over and kept asking to look at the cars again. He wants to look at the cars again. He's like, she really wants to look at the cars. I'm like, here's the cars again. Here's what's coming. And he's staring at it. Real weird, real, it's just a long time. These cars were scheduled to come a week. It was like nine days later. They came in three days and I'm telling you, he just wheeled them into this reality.

Amazon Prime, it's kind of just like a game now. Sometimes it comes, sometimes it doesn't.

Right.

And Amazon is also like where the vast majority, the fact that it works at all is impressive. Most of the other places I've ordered from like sweet water for instruments, down to like even just like sunflower, like the health goods store. And now there's like produce up here. I didn't find the supply chain to be that bad, except for people who got into hoarding mentality with toilet paper for a little bit and paper towels. And the truth is, is I never ran out of toilet paper and I never ran out of paper towels. I might not have been able to buy them exactly what I wanted to, but like, I don't know.

Is supply chain logistic?

It is, it is, it is. And it's also, it's just the mentality that the supply chain has been set up for, move the stuff as fast as you can, don't have any extra, for any emergency. Like it's not thinking rationally, it's just thinking about how we can squeeze the last cent out of it. So I think, you know, the idea of, you know, even particular strains, no matter where you are in New York, you can grow two crops a year outside. And you know, it's interesting. One of the lawmakers who I won't say who was joking, it was an aid and was joking that all the farmers in certain parts of really rural New York are putting in, you know, space so that they are ready to go with this.

Yeah, of course.

And so.

Why wouldn't you?

Well, because we need to have the law, allow farmers to be farmers, allow people who are not currently farmers to become farmers and to create that kind of economy where this is something that exists all throughout New York state. So people can create these small businesses, it interacts with the people who live in the city because it's a rural urban connection, just like Migli rallies goes down and brings its farm produce to the union square market.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you mentioned, I mean, I've seen the migrant workers also who would just like come up and do the blueberry picking and then they come down and sell it in the city, just basic shit like that, just from Hudson Valley. You mentioned at the beginning though, that so like, this is a known thing, it doesn't take long to prove it or look into it, is that the war on drugs, as we know it, especially related to cannabis, was being insepted by racist control mechanisms. You could even say like consciousness controlling at a certain level. There was a nice dovetail for people who wanted more control on people's lives and wanted to push their agenda.

How, this is something that I talk about with my friends, you know, Lou who's been on this show, people who have been in a world where like, we would call illicit drugs, but certainly cannabis is, you know, that's a living for a lot of people. That's like a way of, you know, actually existing, but it is, it's the legacy market. It's not something where like if you get, are moving something, just like if you're moving a bunch of tomatoes in a truck somewhere, you're going to be like, hey, keep it moving, those are just tomatoes. So how does this also fit into like the criminal justice reform aspects?

'Cause I know that's something that you guys were thinking about too.

Yeah, no, that's huge, it's huge. I mean, and that's another one of these pieces of why, this coronavirus has like brought everything together because it's not something that should be ignored or even an add-on. And what has become, in New York, is this is going to be an add-on. So we're going to take some of that money, that tax money, and we're going to dedicate it to communities disproportionately affected by the war on drugs, which is good. I mean, we should definitely keep that part, but what we also should do is make sure that there's more done, that it's a systemic opportunity for people disproportionately affected.

So they have just as much chance of getting a license, more even, than the big guys with the briefcases, that they can really do it. So they can do whatever their business is. Now, we would like to see 95% of the New York's cannabis be small farms, which means outdoor, regeneratively grown. I mean, that's the best for the health of New York, it's best for the health of the planet, it's best to New York be the leader, which it should be. But there is, you could imagine, a small craft best practice is indoor opportunity. But I suspect a lot of people in the legacy market are more in the processing and distribution end of it, or maybe not even processing, maybe just in the distribution and retail side of it, and even the whole other lounge, on site consumption type thing.

But so those opportunities shouldn't be like, oh, you get some priority and license. Priority and license doesn't really mean that much. If you have these big guys crushing you, I mean, go tell it to all the things. We now think of Barnes and Noble as like the alternative bookstore. They were like the beast. Before Amazon, we're lucky here, as you know, because we have small independent bookstores, but a lot of places in this country don't have that. A lot of places in the state don't have that.

Yeah, yeah. So I guess maintaining that is going to be something that, I mean, it's also up to the individuals to also like create and sustain and maintain those too. That's something that happens, but allowing everyone to at least have that opportunity.

Have the, and not like a lip service opportunity.

No, not for real.

Give you a little incubator thing here, and we'll hold your hand and give you a loan and good luck competing against Amazon. 'Cause it, and I certainly don't mean to attack Amazon in particular, I'm just, we had been talking about them, otherwise.

What do you think about Teslas?

Teslas?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't-

See a lot of them now. I like them, I think when we get one.

Really?

Yeah, I think so.

You know, have you been in one?

I haven't.

They're weird, they're little boxes.

Yeah, they look a little weird. They don't make a stick shift, do they? (laughs)

Definitely not a stick shift in that.

I'm an old school person.

You know, they basically are like close to driving people around, like you can get driven down the highway. You could get driven to North Carolina, basically.

I drive a six-speed.

Yeah, I know, but I'm saying like, sometimes you might not want to, it's kinda cool.

Yeah, yeah, you know, that would, I mean, if I am gonna get private transportation to North Carolina, I'm still hoping that someone would give me a ride on their private plane, or I'll take one.

Did you look into how much chartering private jets are?

I looked into how much chartering private planes are.

Is a jet different than a plane?

It could be, yeah.

Is a plane like what a biplane? What do you got in the plane?

No, it's not a biplane.

It really propellers and stuff, yeah.

Is that not a jet?

I mean, I don't know about aircraft, but I know there's like prop planes, and then the jet planes and all that.

Jet's are fast, right?

Yeah, they're better. I mean, you know, like if I could get a little private jet, that would make it very fast, and I would be--

That's good, I'm into that.

But you know, that's just a funny dream. But I think, cause I think most people, you know, that aren't going anywhere right now, so.

You can't, I mean, I think people, if they really want to go somewhere, that would be a natural evolution of where you would have to at least--

Yeah, the money, but that goes back to, you know, I want to go back to this--

Not even if they have the money.

This racist point.

Not even if they have the money, though. You could just imagine yourself in a private jet going somewhere.

Yeah, well that's what I'm doing, yeah, yeah.

That's some sort of--

Yeah, no, that's what I--

Don't make any money to do it. Otherwise, that's a much tougher road to hoe there.

Yeah, but I want to go back to this racist point because I think it's really important, because it is really true. If you go back and look at the history, in fact, you know, if you join our mailing list at nysmallforma.org, you will see, we send out weekly emails and we just sent one out about Lester Grinspoon, which I don't know if you know who he is.

He was like a cannabis active addict.

Yeah, he was actually a friend of Carl Sagan's, and Carl Sagan apparently was a big smoker, and he was--

Are you a fan of Carl Sagan?

You know, I didn't want to divert to the Sagan opinion. I have read some books by Dorian Sagan and his mother Lynn Margolis, which are fabulous, but he really didn't like it, and he basically bought into the propaganda that this was bad, and then he started researching it. He's a Harvard, he taught at Harvard for decades.

No, Lester Grinspoon. - Oh, Grinspoon.

Yeah, and I mean, I'm not saying say good to him, but Grinspoon, I'm talking about, and he discovered that this was a medicine, that cannabis was used as a medicine, and you know, we talk about hemp now and CBD, and so for CBD is like talking about one particular--

Compound.

You know, chemical composition of a tomato, you know? It's like, it's not, you're not getting the flavor of the tomato, the, in my personal view, the plant, you know, needs to work together to get its full benefit.

That's super important, I don't know that to be overlooked, 'cause that's something I tell people, like, just in my experience too, that like, I think CBD has its place, and I think it can be a therapeutic. Listen, I'm sponsored by a CBD company, I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe in that, and I wouldn't take their money if I didn't feel good about promoting it. That said, and I've often said this, and I know the net guys are also waiting for this too, the more of the plant you can include in the experience. And even if you don't want like the psychological psychoactive components, those can be tamped down certainly in certain strains, the whole holistic plan itself is where the magic is.

Well, I mean, and certainly, you know, so to be clear that the plant can have various levels of THC, and so it's classified either as hemp, you know, or what strikes at it, it's like, to be hemp it has to be less than 0.3% THC, but if it's over 3%, it falls into the psychoactive, now unlawful in New York state level, but you can use the whole plant, it's just how that plant tests chemically. So whether you use the whole plant or not is a separate issue from whether or not you're getting all the benefits the plant could offer, limited, you know, a broader range of phytochemicals, but so you could take the entire plant out of the ground and still use it, it just wouldn't have the strength in the other cannabinoids and other, you know, phytochemicals in the cannabis, but so anyway, I still want to go back to the criminal justice reform.

The criminal justice reform, because so Lester Grinspoon talked about, discovered not only that it was a medicine, but he also started to use it, his son had cancer, and it worked amazingly well for him, and he became a real proponent, and really did a lot of amazing work. So the point is, is that propaganda is very, very strong, and he initially is Harvard educated, open-minded, you know, fell for it too, and so it really needs to be counter-countered with the message that this is a legitimate business, and this is a business that, you know, people of color, women, small farmers, you know, 'cause the provisions in the law right now talk about social and economic equity, and so it isn't just social, you know, social is now an umbrella for like racial, so it isn't just racial justice, it isn't just gender justice, it's economic justice, so it really, and we like to think about this environmental justice, 'cause--

Yeah, ecological.

Yeah, because the harms from pollution fall disproportionately on people of color, and poor people. I mean, so this is, you know, we need to shift the whole thing to say--

It's one of these rare instances. I know it's just weird 'cause I love weed so much, but like, it is a thread that if you pull on it, begins to solve, or at least begin to unravel a lot of these systemic, it shifts these systemic threads to like something else that it's, not many people will complain about. Now, extremists on either side will always find something to complain about and how that's gonna be, you know, get hyperbolic about it, but it does provide an economic platform, an ecological platform, a social platform, which I mean, as best as I can tell if you're creating a system of governance, you want those things taken care of.

So yeah, I mean, it's critically important, and then, you know, you do see what happens since states like Massachusetts where like, you know, corporate, the corporate people got in. Like, that's what happened there. Like, it's pretty much unabashedly just for that. They got their arms in, their tentacles in for the medicinal, and then they kind of just like blanketed, and lobbied, and got the whole thing. And then like, listen, the system encourages that, far-bait for me to like really be too hard on people who are judgmental, who take advantage of a system that's crafted like that. However, if we're in this period of time where we actually can create a better system, right?

And to make it better for people, listen, it's not that the people who have shitloads of money and have kind of surveyed this from just the purely financial standpoint won't be allowed to compete. But if everyone is allowed to compete, kind, you know--

On a level playing field, I mean, this is the thing. You know, if the determinative factor of success is the kind of money you bring to the table and the kind of connections you bring to the table, then it's gonna continue what it is. Into the entrenched white male system who has basically been the perpetrator of the propaganda and of the racial injustice and economic war on the people. I mean, let's face it, this is, you can't, you could live in this country or try to live, especially in this state, depending on where you live. I mean, in the city, it's really impossible, you know? And work really hard at like two jobs and barely get by or maybe not get by.

And so there's something wrong with that system.

I think we should also be fair.

It's like really broken.

When you say white male, 'cause I know this is a sensitive subject for a lot of white men.

I'm a white man.

I know, and I love you.

I know, I know, I know, it's not--

I'm married to a white man, I love him too.

And I don't get offended about it at all, but I do think it's more of an energy that has predominantly over the past, however many hundreds of years in Western dominance been expressed by white men because that's where the capital and power, which is generally colonialism.

Yeah, it's like neo-colonialism thinking and it's just kind of like the ego trip and gone crazy and then the power consolidated through like military and money and it's like pretty dominant structure. That's crumbling, so--

Not fast enough.

Well, it is though.

I mean, it is.

I think we're at that moment where hopefully it's--

It is, what I try to say for people who are white men or feel that maybe even they know someone who fits that bill, it's not chastising the individual and the characteristics of that, it's the energy behind it, one of dominance and kind of like--

Absolutely.

I can do this because I had this and like swinging your money around like it's a big dick. It could be anyone who fits that bill is what we're really talking about. You can also be discerning and say hey, it's been a bunch of white dudes for--

You said that in time and know that.

And it's not, listen, it's not about the color of their skin or their gender. I mean, that's not it. It's just a shorthand term for that energy. You're absolutely right. And anyone who's ever been in a corporate environment exposed to a corporate environment and goes to a police environment, to a legal environment, a financial affairs environment, you've been in a bank or even a medical institution where the treatment you get depends upon who you are. And I think when white male is also, you flip it around and say, if you're the white male, everything's gonna be a little easier on you, a little bit better on you.

And that's just been--

Another true truth.

You're not aware of that. If you're a white male, if you don't pay attention, what's going on? If you don't know that if you're a black woman and you go to a hospital, they're like, what is it? Like, 75% is least less likely to believe what you're saying. Like, women don't--

Just a woman. Just a woman.

Yeah, I mean, there used to be a thing called hysteria. So if you got really agitated about something--

Be hysterical.

You're like hysterical. You're quietly off to the hysterical woman.

See you later. (laughing)

So--

Good old age.

But I think it's really important to, that's right. It's not, I think the fact is, though, it's the system. And it's the system, I love that there's this waking up. I love that it's happening. Even for people I don't, who are doing it, and I don't even agree with what they think is happening. I think just everybody's paying more attention now, which is something really that we need as a species. I mean, I spend a lot of time outside, and I look at a lot of other species. Like, bees, you know, and wasps.

Can you just go to the hospital? We're getting slung by. Yellow jackets. - Yeah, those are yellow jackets. You know, their arch enemy are bald-faced hornets who eat yellow jackets, so I'm, you know, really--

So wait, hornets, but were you very allergic to the yellow jackets?

Yeah, so all the, everything in that kind of thingy insects.

I just don't get stung.

Well, I normally don't get stung, but they had the, you know, they decided to build the nest in my garlic patch.

They do it on the ground.

Yeah, and, you know, normally it's kind of, I could have been more careful, which I would have, if I would have been watering that patch regularly and tending to it more, they wouldn't have been able to build their nest, so, you know.

That's why you always water your patches.

But the other species don't, you know, if other species could look at us, like we look at other species, they think this species is insane. Like, they are basically out to destroy each other. Like, no, I don't know what, I mean, what species isn't...

They just pretty much leave the others alone, like they form pods and groups and, you know, or some species, they're more--

Chimps don't, chimps are really aggressive.

Yeah, okay, that's right. And we've just taken it to the extreme.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, we're like crazed chimps.

Yeah, a lot of people think that. I don't know, I think it's just--

But we have potential, you know, they're also, and I'm not saying the chimps don't, 'cause, you know, whatever they want to achieve them for, but to really rise above that. And I think that really leads to another aspect of the plant that isn't something that you chat with your legislator about or, you know, all sorts of people, most are not open to this, but it's the spiritual and psychoactive part of the cannabis that a lot of people find, extremely enlightening and valuable, and it keeps them with the plant. It's one of, if you, there's a great book edited by Chris, maybe it's written by Christian Ratch.

I don't know if you know who he is. The book is called "Marrowana Medicine." It's by inner traditions, it's an older book, but it's beautiful and it talks about cannabis in different cultures and historically throughout the world. And it's names and it's uses. And the spiritual piece is a real piece of who we are. It's not like, well, there's the body, and then there's the spiritual and it's all the same thing. It's all the same thing. And so that's a really important part of this to learn about, because I think people, there's a lot there, and that is another thing that counteracts the demonization, like criminals, you know, rapists, and they kind of come and rape your girl.

Well, it's used also as like a tactic of waging war on people who are doing something that people don't want them doing. It's just like if someone's drinking a beer inside of their home or alcohol, you know, unless they make so much noise that someone calls the cops on them, they're relatively immune, but traditionally, if the weed smell is about in like an urban area, that's pretense for going in and being like, hey, they're doing something like that. A lot of these shootings for black people, like they say, oh, they smelled weed, or like someone reported weed. And that's like, who cares? Like that's not a reason for you to do anything to anyone.

Like if anything, they're probably like chilling out, like let 'em be.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

That's true. Well, you know, it's interesting. When we were just in Carolina, and it's beautiful there, but they have hemp, and it's a pretty successful crop there, and I don't know everything about how it's grown, but I think it's probably industrial-type grown most of it, but probably some of it is more craft, I think it is. And they sell pre-roll, so I was walking along the boardwalk, which most things are closed for coronavirus, but they sell hemp pre-rolls. And so, I was talking to one of my friends, and they were like, whoa, you could just smoke anything now because you can, it's a hemp flower.

Because it's the same plant, remember? So, it's burning and so forth. You can't tell the psychoactive properties or not. You know, the level of THC. And so, if you can smoke a pre-roll on the beach, you can smoke a pre-roll on the beach. I mean, I wouldn't, you know, they--

No, that's what's going on in the city and every other place I've been. That's what I did in LA. I just smoked me with impunity.

Well, in New York, the law has really vacillated on whether you can or you can't have CBD flour, so hemp flour. I'm not quite sure where it stands currently. Well, I mean, everything's sold in the city.

But I mean, like, you know, like in a bouquet, it's not, like, they sell it.

Right, and, you know, one of our board members is telling me about, you know, a lot of businesses where people are making craft products, like tinctures and so forth, out of just the hemp flour. And that's another thing that comes back to medicine and sovereignty of our own bodies and, you know, people of color and indigenous traditions.

Yeah.

Where you can take the plant and use it in those traditional ways. So if you looked at that marijuana medicine and go back to your culture, how people used cannabis, you know, in Mexico, for instance, somebody, a gardener was telling me about, you know, their grandfather would just have it there. And, you know, it would be something that they would do for certain conditions or to relax.

Yeah, it's just the thing that was used.

It wasn't, you know, any more odd than me going out and getting some mint and using it for various purposes. So, but that should be permitted. So if I can make a tincture out of Ella campaign, why can't I make my own cannabis tincture? And if I go through the processes to sell my tincture of Ella campaign.

That's where it's, that's the thing.

But through certain things I would have to do. I don't because that's not why I make tinctures. But I should be able to go through a process to sell my cannabis tincture and put in whatever herbs and create my own.

Well, if you don't have that, you're limiting what the spectrum of, you know, applications or usages of something that's proven to be over time, like a pretty good therapeutic at the very least, whether it's psychological, you know, or medicinal for your physiological. So, yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, what's your sense of where everything is? 'Cause we're in this weird ass, I mean, it's led just, are they even, is, he's releasing a budget?

Okay, so it's a crazy--

I saw his, you saw his graph, you saw his little chart, the other?

I just, the, the diagram? Like the weird, like, renaissance?

I wanted, I need to look at that more. It's a Hieronymus Bosch of Coronavirus.

Yeah.

I want to look at that a little bit.

What's that?

I only glanced at it real quick, coming over here today, actually, because I wanted to make sure that I need to look at that again. Yeah, so things are strange, you know? Normally, what happens, and this was, is an election year, the budget and the legislative proposal get reconciled at some point by April 1st, right?

Yeah.

So, but we were sick in coronavirus.

Yeah, sick, the middle one.

Right, I mean, it was like really sick, and it was like, and Cuomo was king, and it was just, we were really right in there, and trying to pay rapt attention to what them crisis at hand, or all the crises at hand starting to erupt. I mean, and so that didn't really happen. I mean, the budget went through with some essential things that I needed to go through, and, but everybody kept working, and during this time, our organization, and my smallpharmath.org, is contacting the people who we'd built these relationships with, and who are working on this legislation, and the governor's office, as well, to some degree, but they were already fixated on ventilators, and the need for ventilators, and when we spoke with them in mid-March, and it didn't seem like they were gonna have less, you know, any more capacity to deal with us, so we gave them a break.

But we've had plenty of Zoom back and forth with various legislators, which is fun. It's actually easier than going to Albany in some ways, and you really get, you're getting the people's fuller attention, especially when they're on Zoom. Some have been fantastic either sitting outside, but not ventilators. Yeah, I mean, and no, you know, imposing marble structure, is it? But when you get in the offices, trust me, it's not imposing marble structure, it's like, yeah, and aging offices with beautiful moldings, and lots of desks, and a little water cooler, and that kind of thing. I feel like there's gonna be-- So let me just finish, so we're right.

So they've managed to come together, to cobble a few things together, to keep government going along, and they start, they kind of have come back in session-ish, and so they're, no, they're working, they're really working hard, but it's very hard to figure it out, 'cause there's rules, and you have to be in the same building, and now they're changing all that. But apparently, this week coming up, July 20th, they may be coming back together again, and it's really actually a super important time, because it's theoretically possible, they could say, okay, you know what, let's just pass this cannabis legislation the way we have, and we'll just go for it.

Which would be unfortunate, 'cause it could be, improve so much, and should be. The pressure is coming from surrounding states, and New Jersey is on the cusp of life, all four, and in fact, I saw, and I read some cannabis daily publications, news publications every day, and I saw one that the, I think it was the governor, we're saying, you know, this is gonna create so much tax revenue and jobs for our state, like this is important. So this, so you got New Jersey, you've got Massachusetts.

Are they doing it though this year?

Yeah, we've come up in November, I think it's a ballot in the United States.

So do you think no matter what, even if like Corona is like raging again, they're just gonna, it's gonna happen?

To the extent voting is whatever voting's gonna be, 'cause that's gonna be a whole other thing, I mean, you know.

What's it gonna be?

What's it gonna be, that's a great thing. I mean, I don't know, I am not a big good--

What do you think is gonna happen?

I hope we, I don't know how it's a long time from now. I mean, if you know, it's so cool. It's a very unusual world.

I'm enjoying it. I was staying with some friends last night. I was like, you know, everyone was acknowledging how crazy everything is and it's not great for everyone, but we were like, what happened a really good time for the most part, I mean, we're also like luckily in an enclave of like perfect nature and abundance, just regionally, I remember my friend Eric got married and his dad at the wedding, like after at the party was like, he's like, you know, and was up here. And he was like, you know, like the apocalypse was gonna happen, like the Hudson Valley and New York is just the best place that you have everything like from like the river to the mountains.

And I was like, yeah, this is where all the Native Americans live, this is where when people came, they set up shop. It's pretty fucking awesome.

Yeah, well, I mean, and yeah, I mean, and I think it's, we're having a big reckoning, which is good at long time coming. I mean, when you say even Native Americans, I mean, people think about it and, you know, as somebody said to me recently, like--

You saw the change in the Redskins name?

Yeah, the change in the Redskins name, you know.

Soon we weren't even able to reference that like that. It's just we grew up with it, we're still out to. He finally caved in, all it took was FedEx and all these other people being like, hey, we're not gonna give you money anymore. And he's like, ah, I'll change it.

I remember when Washington used to have the team and you know me, I really like know nothing about sports but in Washington, it's such a big deal.

Yes, huge.

And you know, you're in political lobbying world, you hear about this, but they used to have a team called the Bullets.

Yeah, and I bought the jacket, you know, Jack, my friend Jack told me--

Yeah, I had a starter jacket.

It's like you gotta buy the jacket 'cause like, and they were special on sale 'cause they were changing the name of the team and it was a certain kind of jacket, a starter jacket.

Yeah, certain as like, ah, this is the jacket Noah likes and it had the bullets on it.

Yeah.

And that's a huge collector's item right now.

Do you still have it?

No, why would I have it?

'Cause you're a jacket.

No, I don't have it, I know, I know. Bullets was cool, we were talking about that the other day, how they made them change it from the Bullets, which really, 'cause there was gun violence.

There was so much gun violence.

But it was like really the Russians in bullets.

It's like, that's not the cause of you idiots.

No, but it was like, you know, it was just particularly a moment where it was like--

They shouldn't have changed that name. That name is cool. They changed it to the Wizards and now their mascot is a thing called G-Wiz and like, it's this big weird, not even a wizard, it's like this weird blob, like Grimace Guy from McDonald's, it's not good.

Yeah, it's not disgusting.

Well, they'll have the worst name, for sure.

Well, yeah, well, I heard people buying up the rights to anything they think it's gonna be.

Yeah, they floated a lot of names for--

Yeah, I don't know.

It's changing, you see, football's gonna be back, that's Corona proof, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, 'cause I mean, at that point, your head is, you're gonna have so many head damage that associates--

Well, they banned them from Jersey exchanges at the end of games.

That's the one thing they said. And all the players are like, "Hey guys, "I don't know if you know this, "but we're gonna be ramming into each other "for three hours, so we think that Jersey's "might not be the issue." (laughs) Yeah, the NFL's pretty insane, it's--

Well, I mean, but that's always been clear, that it's been, you know, I mean, the whole sport is something.

I like it.

But, no, I think it's really important then, we bring up all of these issues and just reconcile. Well, what the person was saying is like, Thanksgiving is never gonna be the same, July 4th is done, you know? It's just like, it doesn't seem as fun, you know? It's like really the people who were slaves there and so much independence for them or the people who were like, "You just like pushed us out of the land."

Yeah.

But you saw the Supreme Court had a decision on Indian lands?

No.

Yeah, the major, major shocking decision of the Supreme Court is they actually upheld a treaty to an Indian tribe, the ones that had been forced on the Trail of Tears to go uprooted from their homelands and forced to march across America to shift--

If someone tried to make me march up something--

To Oklahoma.

Called the Trail of Tears, I wouldn't--

Well, it wasn't called the Trail of Tears that--

Wait, I'm not going on that trail. That's not the trail I wanna be a part of.

Anyway, but so the Supreme Court, there's some people are really angry. They're like, "How could they do that?"

Why would you be mad against that? 'Cause they, "It's all right now, we built our homes here."

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think we need some reparations in this country. We need some justice. We need all those kinds of justice.

Yeah.

I mean, it's time to, you know, the being quiet and also just going along and eating up the problem that's been served to us in terms of, you know, the Kardashians who even I know about and I don't watch TV. I don't watch the news. I don't. I'm not on social media. And even I know about this woman.

Yeah, she's fine, but it's like, I don't care about her, but I don't care about her.

Well, it's not about her, but anymore. It's about their wealth and lifestyle.

Yeah, so like just spread it around. I mean, this is time to--

They're doing it, they're doing it.

Okay, and not just spread it out. Put your money where the power is, 'cause these people get confused between money and power. No, no, no, 'cause money is great to a point, but at some point, what are you gonna do with it? But the power of the money that gives us this charge is called currency, is because of what it can do. Not the shit you can buy. I mean--

No, that's for sure, but like the influence, that's why we're in this weird point.

But not the kind of influence where you buy the politicians, their prostitutes in the hotel.

But that's money.

Fancy hotel. Right, but the kind where you use the money to--

It's like social equity.

Social equity, and to shift the policy's debates.

I think that's what's happening, yeah.

And give voices to the people who don't have voices by creating the kind of laws, like I'm talking about with a small farmer, which you'd like to see that be the model where you put the power of, the power is there in the plant, where you allow people to all benefit from that power of the planet. So you don't have a license, a big license, and you need a shitload of equipment and expense upfront. It's not that you wouldn't need it if you get through a certain level, but--

You don't have to have it to put it.

You don't have to have, I mean, what you have to do to get licenses in many places, and it's just kill this, you have to have millions of dollars of capital cost expenses to set up your entire operation before you make one penny. Who can do that? And you know, like for instance, black people, black households have $5 for every $100 white households have. And so, you know, there's this economic piece of it that is only gonna be solved by giving people livelihoods that they can build their own. I heard something yesterday, which I didn't know, and I'm sorry, I don't know her name, but there's a woman who was the first self-made millionaire in this country, and she built a, like a mansion at the Hudson in Irvington.

It was a black woman.

I think her name was Lucy, but we don't know what we don't know.

Yeah, I think it's good that people are kind of waking up and recognizing that anyone can kind of begin to create. I think enough people recognize that these systems are not working so well, and that there are enough people who find themselves with resources or power in the traditional or even social influence sense, which is real power in a lot of ways, who are really trying to like plug into systems. Like no one feels, after a certain point, you don't feel good only serving yourself with wealth. Like I haven't met many people who can live like that, even if they extended to just their family, like that-- - I think I have a president.

I don't know what his, I don't know.

Trump to me is just an anomaly of a human being. I can't judge him in any way, just because like--

It doesn't work.

It don't matter, but I think, yeah, I think, well, when I was talking in particular, as people who have amassed, you know, the amount of wealth that they are not going to reasonably spend it themselves or even for their family, like in a lifetime or even several, a lifetime to take that capital, which is that energy of human labor and put it into something that goes back to--

Yeah, that's happening, don't you?

I think to some degree it is.

You think people have to be compelled to do that?

I think the other thing that people need to understand is the environmental piece, which I know is a big part of the small pharma, but we talk about species and species extinctions and so forth and mass excuses. Is this somehow we're not a species? Like we're part of this or the environment. Like if you pollute the environment or a waterway, it's the water you're drinking too. It's the air you're breathing too and you think, oh no, it's not, it's over there. Well, you know, we know so little about the environment, but what we do know is that there's air flows and water flows and there's certain organisms.

We're learning a lot more about how microorganisms play a role and that and they can spread weather and I mean, there's actually bacteria, you know, and other kind of microorganisms that can make it rain. So when we poison these systems, we even got into the nanotech. I thought we could talk about that another time.

Nanotech.

Yeah, but so we all are responsible for economic and the environmental piece. And so we need to spread all of our resources. So if we don't have economic resources to do what we can to respect that we're part of this bigger whole and make that come about too. And I think that's, I mean, I know personally, so I do this organization. I do the Mechanic Academy of Natural Philosophy, which is Dennis McKenna's our president and we are really--

That's Terrence's brother.

Terrence's brother.

Terrence's brother.

Yeah.

That's fine, but I think it's true.

I'm just talking about--

Are we running out of time?

No, we're not just not talking about it.

Yeah, we just did a great series on tribute to Terrence and we had wonderful speakers who met, most of whom worked with Terrence during his life or interacted with him as friends, Paul Stamets and all sorts of great books, Ralph Abraham and of course, Dennis, it's giving back to the world because I'm at a place in my life where I can do that. And I mean, you're at the prime, you know, placing your life, you're 37.

Is that the prime?

It's pretty, you know, it's a good time.

It's like I have a good 20 years here to be in my prime.

Well, I mean, I still feel like I'm in my prime in a way, you know.

I think you just feel like in your prime, I felt younger and not in my prime. I felt younger and in my prime. I definitely feel good now, that's for sure.

Well, I think feeling good is really something we should all try to go for, you know. Unfortunately, we get the, you know, as somebody said, you gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Yeah, but I've found recently in my life that if I look at energy that's maybe uncomfortable or dissonant and just kind of know it serves a function of like giving me a taste of something that I wanna not be around or really uncomfortable.

Yeah, like then that's a valuable thing and it has a function. I also found that like when you're really about to transcend like a pattern or a habit or an energy, you throw a lot of it at yourself. Like you throw the most of those situations at yourself in quick succession and if you kind of don't like recognize that it'll throw you off until you're ready to do it. So it's helpful I think to maintain that perspective which is a good way of kind of staying good. You don't, you don't also, it doesn't, you don't have to feel good all of the time. Like you're failing if you're not. That way you can pretty much deal with anything so far that I've seen in life.

There's other things I haven't seen that one, so who knows?

So one thing I'm finding through both of these organizations is actually right along what you're saying. We are attracting the people who need to be doing this work. And so it's a way to come together as a community. It's odd to do it so much. I mean, exclusively now through social, you know,

Through the internet stuff.

Through internet stuff. But it's happening and people are finding their way to the work that serves them best. And if the values are such that we don't aspire to have great, great wealth, disproportionate to our actual value, then things become a lot more sustainable. I mean, it even goes with the global hunger and all sorts of issues. There's enough food.

It's always been enough food.

We're just not distributing it properly. We have systems that are set up to benefit the few and they are the domination systems. They are colonization mentality. And I think I was listening to the San Francisco Psychedelic Society has been having a series on decolonization of the drug war and race. And I think we really need to kind of think about new systems matter where we're at now and try to--

Some more sorts of good about this.

And, you know, I mean, your listeners, listeners of this podcast, if you were in New York, if you really need to ask yourself, am I going to just sit there and get served to whatever I get? Or am I going to speak up and have an interest in it? Because I think it's really important. If you sit there and you're like, okay, we'll just shuffle me into this and shuffle me into that. Next thing, you know, you have mandatory medical papers to fill out wherever you go.

Well, I think it's worth saying aware and abreast of like what's going on when this legislation and, you know, laws are coming into existence. I mean, especially if it's something you care about, if you care about it. Listen, some people just don't really give a shit about weed. They just kind of will take with one. That's totally cool.

But they should care about the planet and they should care about the health.

That's true.

We didn't even talk about the health and the chemicals.

I've just found, there's, listen, there's infinite reasons. I'm already, you're preaching on the choir about the benefits of weed and all the ways that it can help.

Or the harms. If you have, and this cannabis can test hot with chemicals that if you, there's one, it's called something, Eagle 20 is the trade name. And it's used, it's generally recognizes safe, which anyone who knows anything about, you know, these labels is not a super endorsement of its safety. You know, you should always pay attention to what you're getting. But, and they use it on grapes and other crops, but until the end it's heated, which cannabis always is, it turns into like arsenic. It's really bad. And so you don't want to home--

It can be really bad.

Wow, I mean, it depends what you're using.

You know, the Tontrick people and the Gores, the Gores used to use, you know, they drink arsenic.

I understand, but that was just to prove a point.

Well, that's a valid point.

Okay, but you know, you can do something in a scientific experiment doesn't mean you want to make it a lifestyle.

Well, they made it a lifestyle. I'm just saying like, if it's a choice, then that's one thing, if you're unwittingly and unknowingly ingesting arsenic, that's typically--

We're ingesting, you know, and just toxic chemicals.

It shouldn't, they now, right now, in the bill that's floating in the New York state legislature, which may or may not be passed, maybe they'll convene, maybe they'll be like, now we still hate it, we're gonna come back and we're gonna do it next year. Who cares what New Jersey does? Everybody knows, it takes a while, wants something passed. So even if our dream bill passed--

It still takes a, yeah, talk to them now.

You know, I think it's got regulations, the wheels turn slowly. But I think once the shackles are taken on, they're taking off a little bit and they're--

People will go.

Signaling of, you know, people can start forming together--

Well then the point is stop passing.

Business plans uses a mechanism of control.

Right, and I mean, if you, let's say, you know, you knew somebody or you yourself mentioned, you wanted to do a small business, a micro business, what we're really talking with, a very small business, you could start thinking about it, you know, now and then saying, well, how much, what would my budget be?

Yeah, I wanna get people together to do it.

The facilities and what my business plan and how would it work, you know, and then the goal would be that your overhead costs and your upfront costs wouldn't be crushing and your financial showing and--

Get out of normal loan for like a business, yeah.

Right, I mean, you had to be able to get it together but it wouldn't be, you know, and in our world, you would be able to get a loan from an organization set up for that.

Right.

Particularly, you know, and primarily and especially for if you were a member of a community disproportionately exactly--

I know people--

By the war on drugs. I mean, you should be, you should be like, first to get that loan. You should be, that loan should be especially available to you.

Yeah, and also like, I know people and including myself who would be more than happy to invest in a business that really gave a shit about, I mean, this is why I'd use the net people is like, they fucking, they go over, they really care about what they're doing. You know, they play music, binaural beats, the plants, they're doing test, test even works with about these Mexico trips and these social actors and they like really give a shit. That's the people you wanna be funding in terms of like, there are groups of people who I know and do that if you give a--

We would love to have them sponsor us.

You should talk to them, I just, it just made sense.

Because I think they, because these are the businesses and you know, one of the nice things I've seen in the decades of it's not all cynicism is there have been companies and a lot of people from my generation and so forth, who've set it up, who genuinely give back, and not just companies, but non-profits and foundations who give back to invest in the communities. 'Cause they believe in this vision, it's not just--

Yeah, that's what they're doing. It's a lot around the student conscious corporate bullshit.

Or just, you know, the personal wealth. And so it's more than just so my family always has the yachts and whatever else I have and people who genuinely give and really try to gather the resources to go forward. But I, and you know, our organization, the Small Pharma and the Mechanic Academy as well, but we're in kind of different places, is really particularly looking for institutions and entities and individuals who will support this, the money helps. I mean, none of us, the Board and the volunteers, we have someone coming on now who we're excited about, who's gonna help us with social media, meaning by help us do it.

Yeah. (laughs)

We are not on social media.

We do have a website. - But people care about this. People know about it.

Yeah, I'm sure someone or many people listening will get in touch too. But I mean, I think also--

And we have our list, we have our mailing list, and we try to send out, you know, and we get feedback from that too, so.

And I think like the root, what I'm saying is the common theme, at least with this stuff, from like the whatever you wanna call it spiritual or esoteric aspect, is if you have the ability to pursue kind of consciousness, expanding whatever it is, whether it is meditation or smoking weed or taking mushrooms or whatever you wanna do, you know, float tanks, Wim Hof stuff, whatever breathing stuff, that just give people that level of autonomy on their lives. Like that's just a base level place to start. You can have conversations about more traditionally nefarious substances at a later date, but like there's enough that we've identified that it's like, hey, it's okay.

Like, you know, we're clinically, I know my friend at MAPS, you know, she's doing a lot of great work with them to kind of get like the clinical stuff done so they can prove that this stuff is safe in a lot of ways, but.

Right, and so I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, like the McKenna Academy work really taps into that because it's really not telling or educating or, you know, showing people what to think, but it's how to think, how to experience fully, you know, what, what, what, here, what's there, what's everywhere. I mean, to get into a deeper experience, a transformational experience that brings us to a, you know, a lonely evolutionary path, not just, well, this is how it is and we're just gonna work on these.

Well, that's, everyone's illusions are being shattered.

Yeah, and that's good in a way. I mean, it's very good. It's exciting to see in some ways. It's, you know, I do have some concerns for people who are in certain, you know, age brackets 'cause I think it's particularly hard for them. I mean, especially children at a certain age and young adults at a certain age.

What is?

To, to transverse this odd way of being, you know. And when, when I grew up, you pretty much knew how the world worked. You were presented, no, of course you didn't. But you, you were presented in a way of it. But it all worked out.

This is better.

It's harder for old people, I think, because you, you actually thought that it may have been true. People, my age and younger, for the most part are like, oh yeah, this is like way more accurate.

Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned that 'cause maybe older than I am. But in my generation, when I really grew up in my formative years, it was all about consciousness expanding.

That's what you had the bounce, that's the thing.

So, so at that point, I always said, oh, the world is very expansive. I was here, I went to Bard College and we're, you know, out in the Hudson--

Trippin' balls, you know.

And, you know, definitely attuning with nature and all of nature's delights and plant teachers. And it was really still to this day, one of the most fun times ever, because it was a lot of freedom back then. You know, back then, Bard College student body was hovering somewhere in around 500 of us. And just on this, you know, 1,200 acres of Hudson River and the small, teeny towns. And it was really freedom in the city, not far, you know, not far.

Collectively, there was a snapback in the '80s and '90s.

Yeah, but I was, you know, I was, on my path, I had children then, so I had no, you know, having children is a demanding role.

It's a role, all right.

It's a role, it takes a lot, and especially as the mother, it takes even more. And so, more than you even thought you ever could do. If you want the most, the most out of the altered state of consciousness, try being a parent, especially a single parent.

I think most people would say that, yeah. Yeah.

So, but I think so, so it's a little bit surprising. But I think if you're younger, you know, if you're 11 years old.

You're good.

I think it's very jarring.

No, see, here's what you don't know.

I think it's very jarring because of this.

You think it is, but let me tell you what's actually going on with most of these kids. Maybe some are having like a weird adjustment time. When I was 11, do you know what I wanted to do? I wanted to stay inside and play video games. And that's all these kids are doing right now, and they're fucking loving it. And they're creating a whole video game world, and they have the concerts there now, and they have the things, and they're having a great time. And you're shaking your head and putting your hand on your head. But I'm telling you like, do you know how much people used to tell me that I played too much video games?

And it was gonna like, it was too much, and like, got engaged with the world, and you're doing... No, not accurate at all. I'm totally normal. I probably could have played more video games. My problem was I was born too early. It was in a real career option back then. But I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a way of adjusting to a reality that's gonna function substantially different, and value and modalities of exchange are going to be perceived and utilized differently. And if you're used to one of how it's like been working, it's gonna be hard to imagine how that's gonna work. But I think younger kids, like, they do get kind of the more nebulous kind of...

I think it's a social interaction more than anything. I think it's very healthy. But this is still happening now. I think, well, it's happening to some degree, and that's good. I mean, hopefully, people's reason stays with them. I'm not an over lover of reason, but I have healthy love for it. But so that they continue to conduct activities that aren't focused on, you're gonna die of this horrible virus. And no, I think it's interesting for me to comment on it, of course, 'cause I already told you I don't watch TV or go on social media, but I do read the news, and I do find myself, since this whole thing started, now maybe for your listeners, it doesn't matter, but I try to stay off of my devices, and I find I'm much more glued to my devices.

I still do the Sunday, 'cause it's like my last bastion of not being on--

No technology on social media.

But we're very fortunate, and it's a little easier, and I think it's easier in some places, as more cities and towns adapt to having people outside. I think it's fantastic. I went to Ryan back yesterday for the first time, when it was like a month, and I don't know if you've been down there, but they have-- - Yeah, I live right here.

There's restaurants and people are sitting outside, and you know-- - Gonna go to market street tonight. Also the new place, the new Mercado and Tivoli. Do you know about it?

In Francesco, yeah, I know how to--

Have you been there?

I have not been there. - It's awesome. Definitely you can eat stuff there too. There are rubolas out, it is amazing.

Oh good. - Really, really good. Outside inside.

Okay, well, yeah, I mean, that's nice, and it's great that that's being allowed, which one wonders why it's suddenly healthy, and the health department didn't used to let you sit on the sidewalk, but it's also says something about how much the health department can really keep up with public health, and what kind of-- - Never helps driving a Tesla, it won't matter.

What kind of health do you want? Well, I mean, if you can afford it, but we're also very fortunate, very, very fortunate, and I say it early and often every day, because I wake up to the sounds of birds, and I go to sleep to the sound of coyotes and owls, and it's a very different existence when you can recalibrate with nature, and even if you live in a city, go back and forth. - It's possible. Well, it's not just go back and forth. There's nature all around us, we just somehow--

Everyone has a choice to live in nature, and I know people that may rub some people the wrong way, they're like, "Hey, I don't have the money, "I don't have this, I don't have that." I've seen people in all walks of life go to places, and hey, you may not have a shitload of money, or it might be a king there, or a queen, but you can live where you want. You can be poor in a fucking beautiful scene as you can in the city.

I think I saw a homeless person in mind back then.

Oh, I've seen two now. I've seen several. - A guy at the post office on the bench. - There's several. It's 'cause you know, why not? Why the fuck not? I mean, there's no really to go, unfortunately, but why the fuck not? You're passing through, it's a nice place. You know, I saw homeless guy, it's a classic. Anyone who knows this, I've spoken about it on the podcast. You know, I'm a big dolphins fan. There's a highly disproportionate number of homeless people who wear dolphins clothing, and I think it's because in Miami, it's nice, so they hang around, and the stuff is on sale, so they end up with these coats, and they travel with them, but I saw, this is like three years ago, I was with Alexis, and we were walking around Rimebeck, and there was a dolphins guy in a dolphins jacket at a bench, and I'm like, I guarantee this person.

And she's like, it's Rimebeck, there's no way they're homeless. It's like the most hoity toity place. Sure enough, you go right by, 100% homeless. So it's just like, I think you're like, we should be taking care of those people, not just the dolphins fans. They need the most help. But I mean, no, I think, no, it's what kind of society we live in, we have these giant, like, you know, vacant stores and shopping centers and everything, and we have homeless people. This is like, homeless, this is a real, you know, I've engaged with the homeless a lot in my life, like a lot on my life. Well, I mean, it's something, you know, a lot of homeless is people who are just unable to put themselves in a situation where they are unable to do it to where they can have a stable home.

A lot of that has to do with what we call mental health. Well, I think if they're unable to cope with something, I mean, we've all been in a situation where we just can't deal with something. I mean, it can even be a little thing. We're just not dealing with it. I am like, as you know, like the most ridiculously responsible person on the planet, and yet still there's times I'm like, not dealing with it. I'm just not dealing with whatever it is. And the people who are homeless, or I can't, I can't do it. They are not dealing with their homelessness or they can't deal with it. And for whatever reason it is, those people need to be given the place, a place to go, not some disgusting homeless shelter where you're gonna be like fearful for your safety and well-being.

Well, that's actually an issue. That the only philanthropic issue that I ever really felt compelled to deal with was homelessness.

Well, it's an important issue.

Yeah, I have plans for that. I mean, it's, you know, you gotta do it in the right way. I mean, a lot of it has to do with mental health. A lot of it has to do with like, you know, people not having environments or trusting their engagement with reality. And I've seen that be alleviated through pretty miraculous ways of time. So I think there's a lot of paths toward that. But yeah, I mean, the homelessness problem is certainly a reflection. Everything is us, right? It's a reflection of us. So if we have these large segments of the population that are like really suffering and we're just pretending it's not happening, that's not good.

It's gonna be reflected.

Well, I mean, but that has been what's going on. There's a lot of blindness. I mean, you know, we just watched the movie "Bombshell." Have you seen that?

No.

With Gretchen Carlson.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it was, and Megan Kelly and Fox News and it was about Roger Ailes and John Lithgow was amazing in that.

Oh, John Lithgow is amazing in those things.

Oh my God. He was like the best Roger Ailes ever.

Yeah, he's good.

And, but you know, it's about the sexual harassment.

Totally, what else?

And it's Roger Ailes, what else?

I know, but now we say it's Roger Ailes, but you know, right. But always, but this was something that was accepted in our society. I mean, just kind of like lived through it. I lived through it, you know? I didn't have as bad as cases as, you know, most women but every woman knows about this and knew about this. And, you know, and there was a thing. I was like, oh, women are using it to their advantage. It's like, yeah, 'cause if you, if you, she just said what she was thinking, her idea, you wouldn't fucking listen to her, so sure. Here's my show. You know, it's like, whatever. I'm not that most women did that.

The vast majority of women who have been harassed, myself included, your grandmother.

There's nothing about that.

I mean, it's like they've done nothing. They're just fucking walking by or whatever they're doing. And they're just, you know, these, the men needed something that they were not getting and were trained to channel it this way.

Yeah.

And they got to retrain, like, so, need to meet training camps.

What's going on? I mean, men are getting it. I would just say unconscious masculine energy, but like men definitely are getting it. They're getting served.

Well, I mean, you know, as your grandfather used to say, payback's a bitch, but I didn't like that because I think that's too harsh to put. It's just our karma. We've put in motion the steps to get here. And so this is just what happens in here we are on. So I think going forward, it's how do we want to engage? How do we want to engage with each other, with the natural world and to go back to the natural philosophy and the plant and fungal teachers and, you know, even other kinds of substances that may human, had human help, you know, MDMA.

So your overall message is do drugs?

Well, no, it's not to do drugs, but it's to really inquire within, inquire with them.

You get to give your practical tip at the end. We'll get where we're coming from. Is there anything else you want to talk about that I didn't bring up as my responsibility?

So, yes, I do want to talk about social media.

Okay. It's a force for, and I love it, just by virtue, you're listening to this concept of social media.

No, I think it's a fabulous idea, you know, to connect. I think it's such at its infancy now, there's this toddlerhood, and it's just like, it's just knocking everything over, it's destroying, it's not.

So you're not a fan of social media?

I'm not, I don't use it, but I recognize this incredible power and genius of bringing people together and bringing messages together. So I would ask all of you listeners to assist in any way they can and getting our message out. And if anybody wants to volunteer their services, we have one person who's going to be starting our Instagram they're up there, but we don't really do it. And we were looking for a Twitter person. Apparently Twitter is a little bit more difficult. So says, "Twitter's not as cool." And it's not, but like the thing about Twitter is like, it's kind of like a lifestyle. You know what I mean?

Like that's a thing, like, people will do it, but like--

The politicians-- - People see through it now.

But you see, the problem is, is that the legislators and the lawmakers--

I'm on Twitter.

Since Trump made it a thing.

I'm on Twitter.

Now they're all on Twitter.

I'm on Twitter, I love it.

And so they, that is something, and Facebook, I guess, is also. So if anyone wants to volunteer their Facebook help.

I don't fuck with the Facebook so much. But if you want to get through to the people who are currently writing these laws and who have the keys, they'll change policies. They'll change laws. They'll change, you know, not everybody. Some people are really-- - So you want social media.

But we want people to know about this, 'cause it's Edwin Cannon. Yeah, McKinney, we're good. But yes, of course, please. Yes, but especially, and my small farmer, especially if you're in New York.

That they can send it to the not me. They can definitely send it to outreach, O-U-T-R-E-A-C-H, at NY Small Pharma, F-A-R-M-A, N-Y-S-M-A-L-L-F-A-R-M-A.

What is this, 1997?

Slash org.W-W-W. - Okay.

No, because people get confused by pharma, but it's, you know, honestly. - There'll be a link. There'll be a link, and I mentioned it before. Okay. - Yeah, okay, good.

All right, so, with that said, we get to the last three questions, then, well, there's four questions. What's your favorite color?

Blue.

What's your favorite number?

Seven.

What's your favorite animal?

Bird.

Just bird, just bird.

Yeah, birds, birds, all the birds, okay, interesting.

What's a practical tip that you could share with people listening, something that's helped you in your life, can be anything.

Ah, that's a great question.

That's why I ask it.

A practical tip that's helped me breathe.

Just breathe.

Just, and don't talk. (laughs)

Don't talk, and breathe. Because you need to breathe first, before you talk, just breathe. And then, before you even say anything, breathe.

Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at breathing.

Yeah, I mean, it's really in pretty much any situation. You mentioned that I had the stings. Well, at first, I didn't realize I was getting stoned. And then I ran, screaming towards my house. My clothes were off by the time I reached the front steps.

Freaking out.

Freaking out, and then I just sat there and just stopped and just breathed.

Yeah, and you got to the hospital and you were good still.

It's an epipan.

But you were fine up until the hospital?

Yeah, it was starting to feel a little weird.

So you think you can make yourself not allergic with your mind?

I'm gonna try. I was trying, but I tried that last time, and we actually waited in the parking lot. Now, I did get stung like literally in my third eye by a mature yellow jacket. These were babies, fortunately. And so I tried that and I was in there and everything. And the thing with anaphylaxis, is it doesn't necessarily come in right away.

But then it comes.

You start feeling like really tripping, like you're away, like I feel weird. And then, so I went back and it's Northern Duchess and they're a wonderful hospital, but they're small country hospitals, they describe to me. And so they put me in a room and I was kinda okay. They said, well, your blood pressure doesn't seem high. Did you sure you use the epipan? Well, turn it out. I had the defective epipan in my time. Yeah, so that was a whole other thing. And they've been trying to give me sign a waiver. I'm like, no, not sign a waiver, right? It didn't die, so. But so they put me in a room and fill my husband's outside and they say, do you want the steroid IV?

And they give you some, something else to say, whatever they give you. And some kind of Benadryl. It's anti-histamine, IV though. And I said, no, I don't want it. So she leaves and they're in hospital time. She comes back like a half hour later. And the first thing out of her mouth is (gasping) not a reassuring thing from a nurse. Well, apparently during the time my entire head swelled up and it was true I was like losing a little consciousness. And finally they let Phil back in. He's like, why didn't you give it to her? He's like, she said she didn't want it. Well, but so soon as they give it to you, you start feeling better.

And these very powerful steroids. And so I'm going to try with the mind, but this time I decided I'm not going to wait until that happens. Just go, just go. And it was very convenient. I know the thing, I got my phone charger, my newspapers. I sat there.

Thanks.

It was a fun time at the hospital during Corona.

Yep, and then I texted, well, there was nobody there. And it was just one of the person and--

It's fine here too.

Cool, all right. Well, thank you for coming on.

Thank you, this has been fun.

I love you.

Yeah, I love you too.

Hi.

All right, bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Bye. Hope you enjoyed that episode. Thanks for listening. Or, you can find all of the music and everything else on Patreon. For patrons, there's three level seven, 13, 22, various stuff. There's bonus episodes, there's live readings. There's a bunch of fucking cool shit that basically goes on there. And I think you're gonna love it. If you like the stuff that goes on in the show, if you don't, then probably don't sign up. But if you're listening this far, you're probably like it, so go check it out.

Good, connect with my mom and her organizations. She gave out the email for New York Small Pharma, the McKenna Academy. There are links to everything on this episode page, so it'll all be there. You can just click them, go there, send an email to her if you wanna help out. I know they're pretty cool. I think for anyone who's looking to do that, it's a weird time for shit that's going on. If you're looking for something to do, stuck at home, but you really wanna help, you're passionate about cannabis in New York, cannabis in general, or you're passionate about psychedelics, go ahead, give her a shout, she's good people, and I can vouch for her, she's my mom.

That's it, I think, geez, excuse me. I'll be traveling, like I said, but you guys shouldn't have any delay in content. I think if anything, I'll be putting out more stuff. It's gonna be beautiful where I am, so Instagram will probably be, whoa, Jesus, they just threw a lighter, for no reason, with my right hand. I'll probably be documenting some of this stuff on Instagram, so you can follow me there. Readings are closed until I get to Turkey, and just get into a group. I'll probably open them back up in Turkey. That'll be a magical voyage, so if we do readings there, I'll let you know. Otherwise, they'll be open at the end of August.

I think I had my sister open my books, she does my books now, for September, so you can book then. So that's the next time there are readings that I am doing, for people publicly. Okay, not publicly, privately, that's what I meant to say. Confusing enough? All right, that's it. I will see you soon, until then, happy imagining. Lincoln Tech provides career training that keeps America working. At Lincoln's Mahua campus, you don't just sit in the classroom. You train in fully equipped labs, work with industry leading technology, and learn the skills that hiring managers are looking for. With personalized support and connections to top employers, your future in fields like advanced manufacturing with robotics, automotive, electrical, HVAC, and welding starts the day you enroll.

Visit LincolnTech.edu for details.