John F. Simon Jr Returns

[ Music ] This is synchronicity. This is synchronicity. [ Music ] Welcome to synchronicity. My guest this week features the return of John F. Simon Jr., an amazing artist. You can check out his drawings that he does every day at iClock.com. He's got exhibits at the Whitney and the Guggenheim. He's just the coolest dude. I just wrapped up the conversation with him, so I'm recording this intro right after having the conversation. So it's fresh in my mind. Before I get started, I kind of like my intro music there. I forgot I made that. I was just listening to it. Cool. This conversation with John is just, it's invigorating.

That's the way I left it and I said to him when we were done recording. There's something about the frequency he puts out in his work, in his voice, in just the ideas that emanate from him that really are amazing and inspire me. And I've learned a lot about my own creative process, the creative process in general. And it's just, what a dude. What a dude. That's what I will say. I'm going to keep this intro very, very short. How about that? No ads, no nothing else. No blab, blab, blab, jibba, jibba, jibba, jibba, jibba. I've been getting a fair amount of YouTube comments from people who will find interviews with people.

I guess they're searching for someone else. They're not searching for me. And they'll be like, "Shut up. Stop talking. Let the other person talk." And I've thought about this and had a conversation with my dad not too long ago about this actually. You know, I like to talk, as you know. I like to ramble on. I like to bounce ideas off people. And sometimes I'll be like, "You know what? Am I talking too much? Do I need to lay off? You know, should I just be letting the other person speak as much as possible?" And just saying as little as possible. And I've realized that one of the reasons that I speak the way I do on this podcast with people isn't because I'm trying to get my viewpoint out there or I feel like I need to talk.

It's that this is how conversations happen. It's really, and this can be weird for a listener. But it's really, I feel like my role is to make the other person who I'm speaking with that they're listening to, that I'm interested in their ideas. And of course I am. They're coming on my podcast. But my speaking and kind of conversational style where I'm interjecting or maybe cutting people off sometimes is really just designed to signal that I'm very engaged with what's going on. So I recognize at times that I can seem like I'm yakking way too much and I know I just said I was going to keep the intro short and then I yak some more so I get it.

But I'm viewing it less as a character flaw or a production flaw and more of just kind of something that goes into the process of doing this podcast. All right, that's it. We're done. I'm going to go to the episode. John is Simon Jr. You can check him out at, like I said, iclock.com, numeral.com. Just learn more about him. Connect with him in any way you can. The drawing bees are phenomenal. I have not partaked in one, but I've seen them retroactively. Very cool. Tune in to John F. Simon Jr. Go check out mindpodnetwork.com. You will see his podcast there on the podcast page. We're adding a few more podcasts in the coming months.

So if you like that, here's what I'll ask. This podcast is going to be a-ok. You want to support all podcasts? Go to mindpodnetwork.com. Support there. Make a donation, keep our web servers running. Keep it so I can keep paying Nathan. Unheralded hero of mindpodnetwork.com. He puts the posts up. You wonder how the posts get up? He does it. Let's increase his salary, the Nathan Fund. That's it. You're really going to enjoy this episode. Some other amazing ones coming up. But without further ado, here is John F. Simon Jr. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Hey, John. Hey. Yeah. How are you doing?

Here, let me turn on my video. I don't know if you want a video or not for the- What's going on? That's cool. Yay. No, I don't usually don't use video, but it never hurts to look at the person you're speaking to. Yeah, as long as the audio is okay. Yeah, the audio sounds great. Okay. What kind of mic do you have there? It's a sure. Nice. That's what I have. Yeah. The best way to use just the XLR to USB. Yeah. That's what you recommended. I was going to say it sounds really good. It's your kid. (laughing) The synchronicity kit. I know I should get a kickback from sure and the XLR people because I literally have recommended it to every aspiring podcaster.

Just because it's like to date, I haven't found anything that works as well relative to the cost. Absolutely. It's just like I get the USB mic fad, but I always find that when people use USB mics exclusively, they have this weird compensating base filter thing and it just sounds weird to me. Well, I got this and I got an XLR cable and I have that. I have a little portable recorder, so it also works with that. Exactly. It's multi-use. Multi-use. Exactly. I have had this microphone cord, this XLR for like 10, oh man, longer than that now. Like, shit, 12, 13 years. It's a 20 foot. It was designed for a studio because I got it when I was in college and now it's just the most useless, longest cord ever that I can't get rid of.

Cool. So let's just jump back into it. I'm excited that we get to do this again on air. I know we spoke briefly last week. Yeah. We touched base. Yeah. Friday. And one of the things we were speaking about afterwards, it has been a big and emerging theme, which I know you're a big fan of emerging themes, an emerging theme in my life over the past year and a half, especially has been this idea of community and not only the idea of community and the importance of it, which is kind of, of course, people are getting that more and more now, but the idea of sometimes a community emerging, not necessarily the way you thought it would, from something that maybe you had an intention for it to be something, but then when it actually turns into something, it's something else.

And I thought a cool place to talk about this and also highlight a very cool thing that you do are these drawing bees, which I know is turned into a pretty thriving, awesome community. So speak a little bit about that. And I'd love to hear your thoughts just on, you know, the whole idea of community. Oh, sure. I'd love to. Yeah. When I wrote drawing your own path, which is the last time I was on the show a couple of years ago when the book just came out. Yeah. And I was big on promoting it and selling it and going around and giving talks and, you know, being the expert on that subject. And the book had been a big introspective journey for me.

So it was like, you know, looking at my own process and trying to put it into words and trying to figure out what worked for me. And the first thing I found when I started to talk about it and teach about it is that everybody's experience of creativity and come to know their own artwork is so completely different in ways that I had never imagined. I thought, Oh, yeah. Well, they, they think of different things that they draw, something like that. But it was, no, it was way different. The whole process of coming to know what you want to draw and overcoming, you know, your inner critic and, and, and just some people were much better at reading the drawings than making the drawings.

Some people needed exercises that would take them out of thinking about what it was they were drawing. Some people really wanted to make things look realistic. You know, it's really different and even more different than that. I'm not even giving justice to how, how wide. So that this introspective journey sort of flipped around then when I put this out into the world into, you know, an outrospective journey, you could say. And I started to interact with many more people, of course, teaching the classes. And I had this idea. Ah, listen, here's a good scheme. If I create a site and I put out an online class and I start teaching online, I go around and I could have members and they, maybe they would pay dues or maybe they, you know, they would join in and this would be a kind of a steady source of income.

People use Patreon and things like that. I think you do as well on your, on your podcast. And a lot of people do to try to support us in these activities. There's a whole different way of making money these days when we, when you do this kind of freelance work. And even in the art world where there was a gallery system, there's many other ways through Etsy and Sachi.com and other ways to build an audience and get an income, a sort of steady, passive income support that way. So I had that idea that I would do it. And I wanted to make activities to the community and I wanted to put out content for the community.

And I found a few things. One was that I don't really like making content just for that community, like just for the sake of making the content to give people something to read that. But I really like making drawings every day and being in my studio. So I was working with that. The other thing was that, you know, people look at an article, you post an article or you post some facts and that's one thing. But individual work, the work I was doing in the classes, the one-on-one work was so much more important and so much more productive and got so much further. I really felt like I was doing something.

I was kind of really directly helping people. But it was listening to what they were saying and figuring out what part of the creative process was blocked and how to solve that and how they felt about their creative work. And previous to writing the book, in fact, one of the forces that helped create the book was a group called The Buddhist Geeks. Vincent Horn and Emily Horn were running at that time. And they started a community. This was maybe 2012 and they had a community. And I was part of that community. That was when I was learning meditation and I was learning mindfulness exercises and I was taking their life retreats and they had this community.

And one thing that would happen in the community was that we would have an online meditation, which seems kind of crazy because you're meditating. And we'd get on to -- we used Google Hangouts but also Zoom later. But you would have a video chat session where you could see four or five people and someone would ring the bell and we'd all just sit and do the meditation and then ring the bell and not. And that happens actually in physical space all the time. People meet in a situation studio or ashram or wherever. And they meditate together and there is a difference, qualitative difference. Totally.

I feel -- I think a lot of people feel that way. That's why they do it -- between -- qualitative difference between meditating together and meditating alone. I think in the same way, like people have to go to gyms, whether they could probably just as well get an exercise bike or something at home or do sit-ups at home. Because there's something about being in community that makes a difference, that makes us more responsible for doing it, or makes us feel more obligated, or shares the energy. And so we have these sits online and I'd come online and I would sit and somebody else would sit. And I was kind of casual about it and I would think, well, I'm showing up on these online sits to support the community.

So I'm there trying to hold space and support people. And then I heard someone else in one of the group chats say that they were -- they felt like they were there to sit and support the community. So then I became the one who was being supported. So I could see the dual role, the mutual role. So those went on for a while and they were really interesting that people would just sometimes post. I'm going to be sitting for ten minutes or in ten minutes. I'll be sitting for half an hour. I'm going to sit at five o'clock. And these -- you could see the community grow around it. So when the drawing your own path started to grow and I started a Facebook group drawing your own path and an Instagram, I was thinking of ways to get people together without having to produce a lot of content that they may or may not be interested in and to be able to talk to them and figure out what was going on.

And since the whole book was about daily practice of drawing and the benefits of daily practice of drawing, I thought I would make something like these group sits, but we draw together. And so that became the drawing bee. Like a sewing bee when people used to get together and sew, but we get together and draw. And we put it out there and people showed up. And it's become really interesting because I mean, I work in the studio and so I'm more or less drawing every day, sometimes for hours every day, but that's not true. I found out for many people. In fact, without really being very specific and really taking the time, lots and lots of people don't have even an hour in the week that they actually do something creative and they forget about doing something creative.

They don't take the time to do something creative. You know, they don't let go back out to the wood shop. They don't pull out the pad from college sketch pad. You know, they don't get in the music studio and make a little thing. It's hard. You know, it's hard to find a time to be creative for. I'm sure you struggle with it. So I say, that's the hour of the week. If you don't do it, that's the hour you say, I'm going to do something creative every week, even not even every day. And that's going to be the hour. That's how I put it out there. Like, just come. You're at your own wherever you want to be.

You could be at your mixing studio, your desk, whatever. And the other people help you get it done because they show up and you show up and we all show up and do creative work. And I'm part of a poetry workshop here near where I live. We saw it all physically meet once a week. And there they gave a prompt. And so people were asking for a prompt. So every week I give a drawing prompt. Like one week was bear branches or pumpkin day for rabbits with hats or something. You know, we come up with that. And sometimes it's silly. Sometimes it's more thoughtful. A lot of times has a sort of a mindful reading to it as well as a sort of an obvious reading.

And people can draw. And it kind of works like co-on inquiry practice and Zen meditation. You don't have to actually draw the thing. You can just kind of have it in your mind and see what comes up or you can improvise. But everybody draws differently. And then at the end of an hour, if people are willing to, they don't have to. Can show what they drew. And we see everybody's work. And then on the Facebook group, sometimes people will also post what they drew and we like to encourage that too. So we have this community that grew up that was not the form of passive income. Teachership that I thought it would be.

And yet one of the people in the group was coming to the -- lived in Australia. She lives in Australia near Sydney. And she was coming to the United States. And that became kind of a flashpoint because she was going to be in New York. And so, yeah, about six weeks ago, early October, about 14 of us got together in New York just from this sort of year-long growth of people, you know, not looking to make something huge. But people who are actually interested in creative work and doing drawing work every day. And that was a big surprise. That whole development and the number of interactions online and the number of people that listened to my podcast and right back about the podcast.

It's some kind of territory I think that, yeah, it's a social territory that has such potential. And has the potential to grow quickly and to involve people in sort of very niche little areas that suit very particularly their interest or their needs. Yeah. You know what it makes me think of? And that's such an awesome story and parallels, you know, many things that I've created or kind of put out into the world when I've done it. It reminds me kind of like a mycelial web, right? It's something that really can -- and mycelial webs are everywhere. They're underground. They're above ground. They really just have a way of kind of replicating and intertwining with each other that it's impossible to get kind of like a full 360 view of what's going on.

But then you can see what's emerging from it. And it's fascinating because, you know, I think, you know, in the creative world, you know, when we're trying to sometimes figure out how to latch together creativity and commerce and just, you know, creating passive income, it's been very interesting to me that while certain things I've created have led to revenue and money, it's usually through relationships that are formed from the original endeavors. Very rarely. I'm not a business person at heart. I don't have a full business plan. Go and implement everything step by step. And, oh, there are the rewards or the money that I'm getting.

It usually seems to be that you band together a group of very strong people. You do exactly what you said. You hold space, you provide an opportunity for people to interact in a safe way. You do what you're doing, which is injecting creativity into people's lives. You recognize that people might not be able to create the same amount of time that you do in your life and you recognize the benefits of what that's done for you. So these things kind of like, they germinate these, like, I know I'm crossing fungi in plants here, but they really do. They grow into things that it's hard to see at the beginning of what they'll be.

But nevertheless, it constantly just reminds me that if you earnestly and honestly go with something that you believe in, even if it completely changes, as you mentioned, like, this is supposed to be passive income. You're going to be putting content out and you realize quickly, like, I don't really want to be putting content out all the time just to be serving it up, which is, trust me, I relate to that way too much, but you created this space and you realize that first by creating kind of like a digital outpost that then coalesced into people meeting up in real life. And that to me is the coolest thing about this.

And it seems to be not only for these kind of like focused endeavors that you're doing with this, that I'm doing with the podcast and kind of someone like crypto server, which is morphed into a just a different community than I ever intended it to be. It seems like this is kind of an, it really is a big theme that more and more people are latching onto. I may be too caught up in my own kind of social circles, but it seems that the more people I connect or see connected, the more they have this desire to form supportive communities rather than creating kind of siloed outposts that compete with each other.

And I mean, I always feel like artists and people who are plugged into that are at like kind of the cutting edge of what's going on culturally. I mean, most, most, you know, psychologists, philosophers, mystics will always acknowledge that, you know, artists are tapping into themes before they're, they're visible. So it's just interesting. I just love that you started something. I like that it's you too, because, you know, I look up to you as kind of someone who's been successful, not only financially and kind of, you know, supporting yourself throughout your life and your family with art, but also really introspectively and contemplatively looking at it as a vehicle for personal change.

So when I hear that you kind of approach some of these things in a similar way that I do it makes you feel good about the process. So I mean, what, what have you, I mean, what have been some of your biggest takeaways? Because this, again, something that I think you embody as well as anyone I know is this, this regularity, this showing up consistently, you do it with your drawings, you do it with these bees. I mean, did you, have you always been like that? Or was there a point where you realize, wow, this is important. Maybe I should be doing it. It's like a bootstrap, I think. Yeah, you, you go with your heart, you go with your gut, and you start to get feedback.

And it's a funny thing because when I was a kid, a lot of artists have the story when they were a kid, they were drawing all the time, they were rendering all the time. They could have always had pencil and paper. It was not me at all. In fact, I tried to learn to draw and my mother got me some art lessons and probably like seven or eight years old or young, six, seven, eight, I did art classes and I, I was not careful renderer and art at that time was really judged by how well it looked like something. And I was never interested. I'm still not particularly interested in that kind of drawing. So I kind of despised drawing in that way, but I wanted to do creative work and so I got all into photography and I got a dark room and I had a little chemical packs and because photography seemed to me to be kind of an instant drawing.

Like if you wanted to look like something, just make a photograph of it. And I did. I worked with that for a long time and that led me. And so I put drawing completely aside. Like I can't draw. I was at, as far as that camp, I can't draw. And so I got into photography and I did that for a while. Long time. And then digital imaging came out and I was right at the beginning of digital imaging and that was a really natural move from digital imaging to, I mean from photography to digital imaging. So I was, I guess I was always trying to do something creative. So that, that regularity has always been there.

I always felt like I want to create. Every time I saw something, I wanted to see what I could do with it or how I could change it or what I could make of it. I didn't want to throw anything away. I could make this out of it. It always had potential. So that sense of creativity was always there. But then I, and I was wearing digital imaging for quite a while, but there was still some sort of deep set frustration then, and computers can be very frustrating to work with. We all know that. Yeah. And to program them even more so. And there was just not any really great direct transmission of that creative energy was really going into like coding syntax and, and then especially in the early days, it was no great output.

There were no big inkjet printers or anything. So then I had this beautiful image on the screen and how do I show it? It was a lot of, a lot of problems. And, um, I don't know. It was just one of those days when you just say, I'm going to do this and I don't care. And I just sat down and started to make marks on the paper. Uh, I had been making computer based drawing tools. I still weren't that satisfying. But pulling a pencil across piece of paper and feeling the resistance of the tooth of the paper and the smoothness of the graphite and then the immediate feedback and then the physicality. And then it's present in your space, this piece of paper.

And then it's there for days and you can't get rid of it. And then you remember what you were thinking at the time. So it's, that was the beginning of that bootstrap process. I just started to make marks and it was really way, way on the side. That wasn't my main work. That wasn't my artwork. That was, that was doodling on the side. That was just, but it felt great. I'm telling you, at, at that point, just to let it go on that and just to see what would come out felt great and the whole root of the improvisational drawing and the not drawing for any purpose or not drawing a thing, but just moving your hand and just getting the feedback and then it all started there.

And, and the feedback was tremendous. And it, and that was probably, that was probably, um, 90, 89, 1990, something like that. Uh, uh, and I haven't really stopped. I, I was, I was working in the early web businesses in the early 90s, you know, and I'd go to the meetings, 93, 94 like that. And I'd be making these little marks on paper all the time, you know, and sticking them in the side. I look really busy and I have piles of those still in boxes, you know, and then slowly when I started these, um, software based artworks and the screen works, I had justification. I'll draw on the cards because, um, they're designed for the screens.

You see, the, the thinking mind, the rational mind, sort of needs that needs to be fed a little bit, you know. Right, right. Um, um, I'm doing it for a purpose. Exactly. I have a reason to do it. This is part of my job. I need to draw because of my job. So I was, all these justifications. But in the end, it was that really fundamental feeling of just like watching as you draw, like watching the world emerge on the page as you draw and you, and, and if you can, the mindfulness parts when they finally came, help open that up and see, like, if you can just be open to watching that to be what is and the, you know, you'll notice yourself judging it.

You'll notice yourself wondering about it. You'll notice so much about how your mind works and you, and then the degree to which you can allow that and sit back and let it happen. You know, is the degree of flow and openness that you get to. So it helps with the blocks. It helps with the stress. It stimulates the imagination. There was so much good feedback going on. Yeah. So then that made me more and more obsessive about it. I guess. Well, it's interesting because it, you know, the first kind of, it sounds like the first impetus to start making the marks, well, who knows what the real root of it was, but that it was something that just felt right to you, right, for lack of a better term.

It just felt like something you were doing. And this is something that I think it can be hard to get in touch with that. If you don't have that kind of intuition that, Hey, I should start doing this. Maybe you've never been interested in anything creative your entire life creative. I say in the arts, right? Everyone is creative, but in the arts, you might not know how to feed that kind of itch or scratch that itch, but when you did it, it started as this kind of like this felt right. Now, I'm sure what sounds like kind of the secret sauce in this later, because, you know, when you do anything consistently, it's not always fun.

It doesn't always feel right. It doesn't always feel like the best thing. But what you pointed out, which is so key is that the mindfulness and kind of watching allowed you to work with both the positive quote unquote and the negative experiences, the resistances, which made it a manageable, but also curious and kind of like interesting process rather than resisting against, I don't want to do this. Oh, I shouldn't do this. And I think that's really important because I think I know that's something that everyone bumps up against, whether it's, you know, a creative endeavor or pursuing a relationship or a job or something that you're going to study.

You know, this is something that humans bump up. But we like to think that, oh, I'm doing this now. I'm just going to be interested in for the next X amount of time. But we shift our thoughts and emotions, like hundreds of times a day. So having some. A minute. Yeah, a minute, truthfully. Tell me about it. For the sensitive of us, it's definitely by the minute. But yeah, I mean, that's what's so cool about this is because it's one thing for someone to say, like you pointed out, you know, I've been an artist. I've been making music for my entire life. When I came out of the womb, just the music struck me.

I had to draw on this compulsive, but that's not, it's not always that for artists, for creative people. In fact, it can oftentimes rarely be that because a lot of people don't have the opportunity to pursue those things regularly. They might not have been introduced to them. So it's. And what I'm, what I'm seeing really seeing is that it's not that way for people who are, they're going to their job. They're teachers. They're. They're retired. They're, you know, they're going, they're going through their daily routine without this creativity. And it says nothing really to do with the arts in any formal sense or any professional sense.

It's really just a, just a segment of how you spend your time, how you choose to view the world. And that's what's been so interesting is that, because I've been for so long in the professional art world. So everybody's keyed up on the way, you know, the way you're saying and, and thinking about how the creative work and trying to work at a certain level. But to, to introduce to people the prospect of using drawing as just a kind of a self soothing, stress relieving, self revelatory act that has nothing to do with whether it looks like, and we struggle with that a lot, whether it looks like it or not.

But even in the drawing, these will talk, someone will say, oh, this looks terrible. I've done terrible. And we won't let them get away with it. We say the only bad drawing is the one you don't make. Hmm. That's a really, really, really good saying. And it's so true. It's so true. I mean, because God knows how many of us have these kind of personal treasures stowed away only in our minds that we've thought about doing. And I think that also, the longer you hold on to that inside, these unfulfilled kind of potentialities that you really want to pursue. Some of them are fanciful and, you know, they're daydreams.

We're not going to pursue them. But the ones that really are close to your heart and close to your soul, part of you, if you hold on to those internally for too long, it can eat you up. And I think that always reminds, I'm more reminded of that when maybe I'm feeling off or who knows, maybe the planets are doing something. I have no idea what's going on, but something's not going right. And then I'll just, I'll have this moment where I like, you know, let me just go and play guitar. Let me go and make something on the thing. And then I'll do it. I'll be like, oh, crap. Like, why was I doing it?

And an analogy I'd give. And I especially remember this when I'm not exercising. If I just feel kind of off and I just go and jog or lift something up for a little bit. And then I'm like, oh, God, why have I been doing this just a little bit? This creative kind of in the same way this creative energy has the move out of you. And I think that even another component, and you know this very well, is that not only getting it out of you, but sharing it with other people, whether you like it or not, is just such a critical component. I mean, I'm sure you, I mean, I'm sure there's been pieces. There are things you've done that, you know, you've had them and you weren't really sure of their validity or worth.

And then you show it to someone else. And it's like, oh, that's what this is about. I didn't know. Oh, it completely changes it. Yeah. So at the end of chapter six and all of chapter seven of the book, that's what it covers is like the, at the end of the, of the ox herding pictures, the zen ox herding pictures. This is a, this is a ancient map to enlightenment. It's been taught for, for centuries. The last stage is a return to the market. It's going to go back and share what you, what you've gained with everyone else. And then so then chapter seven is, yeah, how do I establish a relationship to share these things without the fear, you know, and the doubt and the vulnerability that's going to come from doing the creative work and putting it out there.

Yeah. And it, and it's like, I, it's a funny analogy because it's, I don't really like people that take science concepts and use them. You know, it's this idea of the collapsing the waveform, you know, in this Schrodinger's cat and, and is he alive or dead? You don't know till you open the box. He could be, it's in this intermediate. Say, well, your work is in this intermediate state when you, when you haven't shown it. And as soon as you show it, it, something changes for sure in you and in the person seeing it. And then, then their reaction and how you deal with the reaction and what you expected it to be and not to be.

And, and John Deidot-Laurie and his book Zen in creativity gives also good examples of how he handles, well, we call it in, in the art world critique class, but it's not really critique because we're not critiquing. It's kind of the feedback process, the looking at the work process. And what he has people do is only say the feelings that come up. We don't say if it's good or bad. We like it or not. And the feelings may have nothing, maybe a picture of a dog and you may have a feeling of, of autumn or something, you know, something that doesn't, doesn't match. And so you're meant to just bring up those feelings and talk about them.

So it's a really kind of an obtuse approach to critique. It's not really critique. It's a, obtuse approach to feedback. And it's very gentle and it works really well just to say, oh, I feel happy when I see that sunshine coming up. These are the feelings. And it's so surprising that what people feedback a lot of times in their feelings that come up, the person who made it goes, oh, yeah, that was in the back of my mind. Oh, yeah, they can relate to that relationship much better than whether it looks like something or whether the shading is good or, you know, the lighting or what have you. That's really interesting.

And it's a, like you said, it's not critique. It's kind of just like mindful observing and feedback for someone. And it's interesting because it seems much like dreams are kind of a path and a route to the unconscious, right? Because you're, you're circumventing that logical, analytical, intellectual part that wants to come up and label things quickly. These are feelings. They, they're, they're a little bit different. They're a little more nebulous. And then it's very interesting that that can kind of, you know, provoke a remembrance in the person who created it. Because I, I've really kind of tuned into this.

I am unfortunately, and I, and I know this is actually an unfortunate thing, a, a not a very consistent meditator in the classical sense. I don't sit down every day. There will be periods where I'll kind of do it for a little bit. But something that I have done more regularly over the past few years has been micro dosing. Um, and I absolutely notice with LSD, psilocybin, I find a little, I can't get a micro dose on psilocybin. It's all just below tripping for me, no matter how low I do it. But with LSD micro doses, very small amounts. Um, I noticed these kind of stray little thoughts and feelings that I can actually hold on to for a little longer than if they just faded in the background.

And I've noticed that this not only influences my mode of thinking and kind of my emotional state, but especially when I'm doing something creative, I can kind of infuse these little fleeting, what feel like subconscious and unconscious material into what I'm doing, which really I do think gives it a stronger resonance. And again, and this is something that I think I've learned and solidified as a theory more from you, my conversations with you than, than anyone else is this idea of your state of consciousness when you're creating something and what you're putting into something, uh, we'll, we'll say for a creative work, but it really anything.

I mean, that's the, the magic of it. Anything. Um, really kind of imbues it and infuses it with something, which is ultimately what the audience or viewers responding to. I mean, what, what, how, what has kind of led you, this has been something intuitively I've known or kind of rocked, but over the years, more consciously have understood what's kind of been your evolving thoughts on that. Um, yeah, I love, I love that. And you gave me a book about the music. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sound of, the mysticism of sound and music by Hasra in a icon. Yeah. And, and it's all in there too. Yeah. And it's all about these resonant levels, you know, and, and in Indian music, they have, um, they have, um, strings, which are sympathetic for sympathetic resonance, they call it, right?

So you plus one string and other strings vibrate and make sound in resonance with that. And I, I feel like where we put our attention and what we do resonates with other things in our lives. And it's that chord, that resonant chord that we try to make more and more beautiful as we go. So at every layer, of course, certainly the layer of our rational front mind should in some way be resonant with all the rest if it can be, you know, and it's often in conflict with that, but the degree to which we can be back and have resonance. Yeah. Our attitude about what we're doing, the way we approach what we're doing.

And, and when we open up, we realize how many choices we have in every interaction, every time we talk to a person, you know, are we going to be critical? Are we going to be supportive? Are we going to start by thanking them? Are we going to start by pointing something out? Every, every, every, we, we angle our trajectory through the conversation, all those things resonate everywhere and all around it. So yeah, when we make a work of art, uh, are the state of our heart, the state of our mind, the temperature in the room, uh, who we spoke to at breakfast, what we're, what we're waiting to go do later and thinking about all those things are encoded somehow.

And if, and the funny thing is, if we go back, if I go back to drawings later, even years later, sometimes I'll, that's what I'll see in it. And I'll see. Oh, yeah. What I remember is I was in a hurry because this mark is, this mark is, uh, done quickly. And there's a painting I made. It's very funny. I was four years old. I was four years old in kindergarten. Uh, and, um, and, um, I made this painting. And, uh, when it came at the end of the week, I didn't get it back. And I was like, oh, it didn't get my painting back because they gave you a packet at the end of the week. And then later, they brought me into this room and they said, well, we put this one aside.

It's going to go in this art show. And it was all kind of, had no idea what was going on. And, um, I had seen this book at my cousin's house over Thanksgiving that was all mazes, really intricate little mazes. So I had tried to draw these mazes. And, uh, and, um, there was one part where I put the outline color in the, in the wall color and the pathway color anyway. And I had made it so you couldn't get out of the maze. And I had to draw this, um, yellow over purple. This isn't too much detail, but anyway, I like it. I like it. I made a mark on the painting, uh, uh, to correct. It was like a, it was like a mistake that I was correcting.

You know, it was an impulsive mind to make it change and it looked different than all the rest of the things. And that's how I recognized the painting when I saw it later, was I remembered that mark. And to this day, I remembered the feeling of that four-year-old person who was me when I see that painting again. Or even when I think about it, I remember that impulse. So clearly, because it's just done like in a kind of a pure way, but it was recorded in the, in the work. It was, and so it's like resonating through all the time. It's coming through. And I've taken apart my, uh, feelings about that painting over the years in different times.

And I've seen the, uh, family gathering at Thanksgiving, the feelings there of the family gathering in that as well. And then my feelings about math are encoded in it. I can see all these things when I pull apart the threads of that. And you realize that every moment, this very moment, there's everything that you've done in your life that's led up to this moment, all encoded in that. And so in the, in the mark, if you're sensitive to it and you're, and you're as open as possible and you're not sort of have an idea. I'm trying to make this be the left hand cheek of this person or something like that.

But you're just really open the sea and, and reacting to what you see. Yeah. It all gets in there. It all gets in there. You say there's no, every drawing is a self-portrait, I always say. Uh, I mean, that's a really cool anecdote and story because it, it allows you essentially to retroactively time travel multiple times back to a state of consciousness because you did something creative and have title of these things to it. I, I know exactly what you're saying. I don't know what, I think it started when, when Eli was born. You know, you real people, you have kids, you know this. It really gives you an opportunity to reflect on your own childhood, your own parents, your relationship to your own show.

So I think I started having these, these remembrances of certain scenarios or just emotional states when I was kid. I don't have a specific time and place that I can nail it down to. I was this age, but they're recurring things that I can feel more presently that were kind of like walled off before going through adult life. And it's very cool that something, and I think there's the, the symbols of what's going on in the art are obviously the anchors that that kind of tether you back to that reality. But stacking on top of that, something else that you said is that your cumulative being is encompassed of all of those moments that happened before that.

And you can unpack them at various times if you have that, a kind of a sign marker, that marker that you put in temporal space, but then the openness and ability to go back and kind of investigate over and over again, like what was this actually made of? So you can tie it to Thanksgiving and this family things. And I think that also becomes something you really open my eyes to with, with art is the story that goes behind and with everything is, is as important, sometimes more important than the actual work itself, which can sound kind of like a pessimistic way of looking at things. If you're saying, Oh, we just have to create a narrative around anything and it's good.

But no, if you really key into that resonance of what this is about and present that along with, it's like if, you know, I'm just stating scientific facts without any context and anything. Okay, maybe someone who's very interested in those specific facts is going to like it. But I can create a narrative about why this is important. There's something in human beings, Joseph Campbell knew this, Jung knew this, we're hardwired to respond to these things. I mean, were you, what point did you realize that? I mean, like, I like asking you these questions because you're someone who I recognize as farther down the path in terms of time spent thinking and kind of evolving these ideas.

A lot of these things, I didn't think about, you know, even, even as an artist and a musician, I just never thought about until like three or four years ago, five years ago, wasn't thinking about the creative process. It's just kind of taking time creating. So yeah, I mean, what, what kind of helped you see the greater picture? Right. Yeah. It was a mistake in the beginning. I love it. It was my rational mind trying to find ways to justify the drawing process, the fact that I was getting great feedback from drawing and wanted to do it more. So I came, you know, I came up, I talked about this before, but I come up with this idea to do an artificial intelligence, you know, to do creative work.

Yeah. And so I started to self-examine my own creative process. And what I started to see was that there were, yeah, revelatory things happening. Things were being revealed. You know, I thought maybe it was like divination. I thought I was seeing the future. I was like, but I started to see these stories come out as I analyzed the drawings. Yeah. And I looked for it. And, you know, what we were saying for, you were talking about the web-like nature of the community as it formed and that kind of thing. Something that happened really recently in that way that just reinforced it. It happens all the time.

I look for what's persistent in my work. And I think that symbols that are coming up persistently are something that need attention and I pay more attention to them. And that's how I sort of get into it. And that's why it goes into Jung and Campbell and those guys because they talked about symbols that are persistent and archetypes and things like this. So I'm looking for those and I'm looking to identify the object I'm drawing, of course, but also the symbolic value of the drawing and it's mythological connections and it's Dharma connections and where it fits in. So I, about, maybe it was just after the book came out or so I was drawing these like, they look like a tolls or island of tolls and they were kind of curved lines.

And then all of a sudden they really turned into what looked like bozzes or vases. They look, they look like vessels. They look like pots, cups, sometimes they be ships, which was a word play on vessels, which your mind sometimes has fun throwing you different ways. But it was saying vessel. It was coming out vessel. And I eventually understood that's what I was building. When the community started to form, like I was getting this message. What you're doing now is building this vessel. And I spent about two years drawing those. If you look back on iclock.com in the 2016-2017 record, you'll see tons and tons of these little drawings that happen every day.

Because I'm doing them spontaneously. I'm not really planning it, but that's what's coming out. And I can say that what I drew today was not one. So it changes. And I just do the same thing and it comes out. So there was that symbol coming up. There was something in the unconscious mind trying to get out. And the message basically was spend your time building this vessel. And that's in the community. I spent the time with the community in the community form. And now people are putting up their own times for drawing bees. And people are meeting each other outside of the context of drawing own paths.

So that web keeps growing. And I couldn't be happier about that. I think that that's just the most amazing thing. Because what I really feel like the strongest thing is to turn people on to that feedback of creating and seeing what you create. And I think that I do a lot of meditation and I've done a lot of meditation. And a lot of times what happens to meditation is, you know, uplifting and you get this positive feedback. And often it goes and it's hard to keep. And what I love, love, love about the creative work is that it kind of captures it. And even if it just captures that one little moment and it reduces the dimensionality of it.

So you're not getting the great expansive, beautiful, connected. It's still a pointer to that. It still kind of, and it still has a little edge of that. And it still has maybe it has three notes of the chord instead of the full 1200 note chord or whatever was happening. But yeah, it's a little timestamp. And then you can look back at that. And yeah, you make up a story about it. And in the process of reading the drawings, we look at it at four levels. We look at the physical level because sometimes it's the materials that open up for people. Sometimes people are very concerned with what kind of brush or what kind of pen or what kind of paper.

And we open it up from there and we get really, you know, nerdy about the materials. And finally, we get some satisfaction and then all the other stuff has already happened. So we're nerdy about the materials and while we're nerdy about the materials, we're actually drawing a picture of our mom. But we didn't realize it because we were really concerned about the brush. And then we open up that part. Okay. And then it's the feeling level. We look at the feeling level because maybe it's the feeling level because we feel like we must draw. And so we work at the feeling level and we don't think about the materials and something comes out that way.

Or we work at the story level, which is what you're saying. And the story level, yeah, I say, just make it up. And they say, I'm just making up, I'm just make up a story. I'm just making it up. Yeah, you're just making it up. But given all the possible stories that could be made, which is the particular one that you've just made up. And then of course, that one's great in time because you look back and you go, well, at that time I made up that story because I was so obsessed with my kid that I was only thinking that. And now later, you know, my job is important. So now I tell this other story about it.

So it's that change and that's a beautiful way to do it. And when I post on I-clock, I often write little, I put some words because those words really stamp down meaning. They really are very specific, much more specific than a drawing. So I stamp down some words and that tells me a little bit about what my state of mind is or how I was thinking. And I go back and read them too and it's good. And then the other level is like the symbolic, the archetypal, the darmic level. And I make people say, what is this a symbol of in the universe? And you can say all those things about a single drawing. And then the degree, the degree to which you can record it and come back to it.

Yes, really revealing about who you are and where you are. Well, I love it because you've basically put together, you're calling them levels, but essentially these are tools in your kind of creative arsenal that you can deploy at any given time to kind of find the one that fits best. And this gets back to kind of a theme of this conversation, I'm realizing is this idea of spontaneity, of accidents, of turning off the rational parts of your mind that want to look at these things which really, in my experience, they just interfere with creativity. It's just, it's like a, it's like a block sometimes they'll just drop down.

They can go hand in hand, they're not mutually exclusive, but when there's this, I don't know how to describe it, I think I mentioned to you, I went on a huge unfollowing binge on Facebook, which is very good for my internet health and psychology of the web. But it wasn't always based on the content that someone was posting, right? And it wasn't based on my knowledge of their personality, but it's this desire sometimes I'll notice of people saying, well, I need to do this, this needs to be put out now. It's like putting on airs, right? It's not really, and it could be something as simple as just a selfie or sharing about something going on.

But to me, if you're really paying attention, it's noticeable. And I think what we, as people who want to see beautiful and inspiring and interesting things, we don't want to feel like this is something that's been crafted perfectly everything pre-planned in advance. This is one of the reasons I think podcasting is medium is very popular and more and more people are getting into it because if it's a conversational podcast, yes, you can have your pre-produced NPR shows, which are also great. But when there's something you don't know what's going to happen next and something can emerge from it, there's something that people naturally love about that.

And it's kind of critical for everything and not just even in creativity. I noticed this with personal branding, with creating commerce out of freelancing, whatever it is. It's something that it's somewhat difficult to speak about. It's somewhat below the verbal threshold, but we can pin it down so much that this spontaneous dynamic emergence is kind of what people seek more than anything else. Yeah. I was trying to write that into code. I was trying to find it in myself. Yeah, I think that I've always been totally fascinated by that, how things combine to come up with something that we've never seen or haven't experienced or a new combination and how many possible combinations are there.

What are the best combinations? Today, I think, what are the most resonant combinations? That's how I think about it. How can I tune those combinations so that the emergence is in harmony with all those levels and many more levels that are unnamed and unseen and that resonate with the body and resonate with things we haven't imagined? And when you get that resonance to a point, and it opened your mind to something that you didn't even knew was there before. That's the fun. That's right. I think that reminds us of being children, too. That's a child's approach to life. Oh, my God, that can happen.

It's probably an enlightened state of mind. The more we can kind of remember to tune into that, I think the better it is. But I also want to talk about your podcast, which is just joining MindPod Network. The old episodes that's up on the site now, we're getting them up. I know when we last spoke, I don't even think, I think you were just thinking about doing a podcast, but now you have what, 20, 20 episodes? 20 episodes, yeah, and a couple in the can, ready to be put out. So what is the experience? I love asking people this who got into podcasting. And 20 is probably the benchmark for, okay, I'm really doing this now.

What have you learned kind of talking to people? Yeah, it's an extension of that, what I was saying before, that out perspective journey that I'm finding that everybody thinks about that emergence and that recombination and what's going on in kind of a whole different way. That's totally fascinating. And their experience of how they came to it and where they think it's going and what they're trying to do with the same, maybe it's not the same, but with this kind of recombination of things is so interesting. And so I started with people that I knew fairly well or who were doing things that were right on the line of sort of meditation and art, looking for that creative practice, but also people who are mindful of it.

And sometimes I interviewed just artists who were just hardcore artists and not really doing too much with meditation and sometimes meditators who see the creative side. And I think it's pretty amazing, the variety and also, yeah, what have I learned? I think that interviewing is its own creative practice. That's the first thing. And then I didn't really realize from the beginning, I'll have a conversation over, you know, we'll meet for coffee and have a conversation to roll, but I'm not as introspective about it and I won't think, is this sounding good. And then of course I have to get over that, yeah, and it's all that inhibition, you have to get over, so I learned that.

And hearing my voice is something to learn. And realizing how the questions you ask and how you direct the conversation, you know, really affect what comes out and being prepared with certain materials and topics that I want to talk about is a good idea. But also, how much homework I was really doing to talk to each person, to really kind of learn about them and how rewarding that was. And how you can, if you do a little bit of the legwork, like you do and know a little bit about, I think you read my whole book before you interview me, which was kind of incredible. Then you really have questions, like I really have questions around, and you start to really talk about something, you know, and you hear the shift in the dialogue and you hear the shift in the voice from like, what was your first experience with, but you know, it's very stiff in the beginning.

And then later you're like, no, but really, when you get down into creativity, what are you feeling? You feel like the universe is coming through you and you can really kind of get into it. So, yeah, so I'm constantly amazed by the depth and variety of people that have really spent a lot of time in the creative practice in so many different ways. And the things are getting out of them that, like you said with the kid, I didn't know you could get that out of creativity. I didn't know the world could open that way. I didn't realize how group practice was so important. My friend Betsy McCall is sometimes she says, that's just what she does is hold the space. That's creative for her, creating that space to be held.

She runs the art monastery and does these art monk retreats. And so who knew that these things were out there? And the more I get into it, the area between creativity and mindfulness is its own kind of world. I mean, yeah, draws from the traditions of mindfulness, but it also draws from the traditions of craft and the kind of things we learn physically by doing things. And there is this kind of state of mind in there, which I think it's people to making art, but I also think it attracts people to meditating that I'm going to spend probably the next couple of years or longer, you know, trying to articulate and draw out and identify and give to people who benefit.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, totally get it. I mean, it's something, it is a creative practice speaking with people. I think everyone has their own reasons for having conversations and then putting them out to the world and, you know, whatever degree they're doing that. Again, I put it in the category of one of those things that, because of the unpredictable and unique nature of everyone's approach to life and creativity and whatever topics you're discussing, you can't predict what comes out of this. And it feels like when you send your kind of like curiosity tentacles out into the world and learn about someone or figure out their approach, in the same way that your cumulative experiences growing up in your own personal experiences kind of add up to your entire DNA.

So does everyone else you meet? And I think that's kind of the secret mystics know this, but that that really is how you can become everyone's friend. That's how everyone can become your guru. That's how everyone can become part of your family, not in some cheesy kind of platitude, like way, but really forming that again, the mycelial web of connection and then deepening it too. I've noticed that that's something that, again, podcasting is such a terrible term, no problem, such a terrible term, but it allows this kind of depth of penetration, depending on how long a podcast, depending on what type of questions, of course, but it really just, it provides a dimensionality to the world that I think it's hard to describe.

And also just to be clear, for people listening, so does listening to podcasts. It's essentially the same thing. It's really not that different. The more you listen, the more ideas you're exposed to, the more when you're listening to a podcast. And you go, yeah, or you feel like you have something to say. It's the same thing. There's no real difference. And it's just, again, I think it speaks to an emerging theme of people wanting to band together in terms of communities that are supportive, sustainable, and, and generally going to be looked at as something like, hey, we could carry this for the next few hundred years, where I kind of want to pivot a little bit in this conversation. Just say like, you see the same things I see out in the world these days, the, the degree of polarity and kind of dysfunction just seem to be ratcheting up on a daily basis.

How, how do you, you also strike me as someone who is an optimistic person, who is a curious and interested person, as am I, how do you kind of reconcile the cognitive dissonance between the harmonious oneness of the universe and everything and kind of the polarity and divisiveness that we see out in the world world? What's your kind of personal approach to that? Yeah, I have all the answers. Yeah, of course. You know, being the observer of what's coming up and allowing what's coming up as a good practice in meditation. And I think that we have to think that what's going on now, all this turmoil and divisiveness needs to take place for some reason. And so, you know, we have to work this shit out. We have to work out what's happening with the air and the water. And we have to work out what's happening with how we treat people.

And I think these networks you're talking about are enabling that dialogue. They're fostering that dialogue, but that dialogue hasn't been had for a long time. It's been a much smaller group saying how things will run. And it's kind of what's going on now. And so there's going to be turbulence at the margins, for sure. So we need to be able to allow that and not get too upset that it's taking place. That's one thing. And the other is to cultivate the kindness that's going to take and to think about how to be open to somebody else's point of view and their dialogue and how to find common ground outside of the memes and tropes of the media that we've been given that control the larger dialogue and think about how, you know, we're going to treat people and try to, I don't know, somehow I feel, and maybe it's just a just a belief. But I feel that, you know, individual kindness percolates and gets out into the world. And if we can kind of model that and show that and show people that it's possible to.

And I mean, like an argument in your family. And argue, you know, how do you get along with your next door neighbor? You know, these, these, and art is a good way to experience it, because when you make a piece and you put it out, I mean, you're vulnerable. And you got to think that there are people in the world who are migrating and traveling and who want things for their life that won't write for their life that they don't have, you know, they're in that vulnerable position. And so you can be sympathetic and empathetic to what's going on. I think a little better. And so the degree to which we can understand it ourselves and be open and kind ourselves. And then as artists, the degree to which we can model it.

I'm not saying draw a picture of migrants, but just a fine thing, but it'll also work. But just modeling the, you know, if our artwork is resonating that kindness and getting out there and representing it that way, I think it will, you know, will percolate, but I don't have any more proof of that. But I do feel like the arts have a role. And I feel like the diminishment of the arts in this kind of Western culture that's gone on and the commodification of it have diminished the vulnerability in the openness. So what you're saying about spontaneity and just putting it out there in the podcast is opening a needed door because we can see the vulnerability of people as they try the really popular videos on YouTube or when people trying to do something and don't quite do it well.

Right. Why do we like that? Because it makes us feel like, you know, not everything we see is so polished and perfect because sometimes we see these really polished podcasts and really polished performances and we see the best of the best. And yet, there's so many more humans, you know, that just are just having fun and just want to try and just doing it, you know, like, we're not all professional baseball players, but we like to get out in the yard and throw the ball around and get around because it's fun. Yes. So, you know, let's treat each other like we want to be treated, you know, not how we think that politics demands.

Well, this is why I asked you these questions. This is exactly why. And I mean, I definitely agree that kindness percolates out. I mean, I'd make the case that everything percol percolates out, right, all of our actions. So if we know that, which really tuning into that concept, that'll, that can send you on a mind bender for a long time. But if you recognize that, then why not choose to focus on things that make you feel good, make other people feel good and are helping. And I agree that if you can look at what's going on out in the world, not good things objectively, not good things with an idea of this has to happen. It's easy to say that, oh, we were, we had a black president, we were going to be so close to curing racism.

It's like, we didn't even come close, like it's that we're not even, we haven't dealt with the shadows of this country in the slightest. And that needs to happen, especially if we're trying to project some world image about what people should aspire to, which is what this country has been doing for 100, 200 years. I mean, it's kind of been the beacon of what one wants to be. And I say that with no, you know, egotistical, hey, this country is the best. But the more I've learned about this country, that has kind of been its place. And now as we see kind of the ethics and morality, I wouldn't even say eroding. I think it's been like this. We're just seeing them. Yeah, contracting, right.

It's important to look at this and say, okay, what is actually going on? What can we bring to this? Are we going to make it worse by attacking people whose views are different than us? Because who knows why? Who knows why? What we don't know if that's an internal thing, if it's a cultural thing, it's a family thing. But if we can kind of bring that equanimity to the process. And of course, we'll get riled up at various things. It's hard not to get riled up when you see migrant children getting tear gas shot at them. It's like a normal human response. But if we can take that kind of passion and bring it to intelligent, compassionate discussions, that's how this changes. There's no, I have a lot. I'm not a lot.

I know people who think this will be solved by riots in the streets, by some big overthrow of the current world order. And yeah, maybe. I mean, I don't want to be one of these people saying never, never saying it's never going to happen. But it's not usually how cultural systems are overthrown, not since the middle ages when you could go on crusades and campaigns and stamp hands out. Those didn't work that well either. Right. They didn't work at all. It's a story. There's a story, right? And it's a goal and it gives us a way to think about things. But what will happen is what needs to happen and what's the sum of it all.

Yeah, we talked about the residents before, right? You're putting out a vibe and you want to be around people or tune people to that vibe, or maybe you'll tune to their vibe and you'll find some resident cord. And that's what satisfying and the world is in the state. It's in because it's in the state. It's in. Yeah, it is. It's working from here. Let's, let's, you know, let's figure it out. John, I love our conversation so much and I'm happy we get to share them with people too. Let's, did I do the questions with you last time? Let's see if they line up. Let's see if they line up. I always like to compare and contrast.

Yeah, exactly. What's your favorite color? It's purple has always been purple. I love purple. Purple's great. What's your favorite number? Yeah, I'm still with three, I think. I like six a lot, but yeah, three. Three seems to be a good one for me. Three is really, really good. Favorite animal. Yeah, I think last time I said the coral polyp, which was, which was, it's like the origin of the reef, you know, so I think something like that. Some, some. Well, you know, I'm finding out because my son's taking biology. You know, it's all these, these unknown kingdoms of bacteria and fungi. My favorite animal is biodiversity. That one is evolved and sprouted into a completely new diverse. What I like is that so many possibilities for life exist.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's a really great animal. That's a great answer. Practical tip. Open up creatively. However, if you're in the kitchen and you're, and you want to throw a little extra spice on the taco mix, you know, and you got five minutes to get dinner on the table. You know, if you, if you just step a little bit to the left to right consciously while you're just hurrying to a meeting. How, you know, just that moment of just bringing it a little further out and open and do something just a little bit more creative. Just a moment a day, whatever. That's, that'll open the doors. That'll, that's really, and that's what I'm finding for people. Just just allowing, just allowing that things can be a little bit different if you want them to be, and they could resonate a little bit more with what's going on for you.

If you just allow it to happen. I love it. I truly end up leaving these conversations feeling invigorated every time we speak. However, briefly long, I really enjoy having them. Let's try to get together soon too. That would be great. Yeah. Thanks for coming on, John. Anytime. I love to talk to, you know, it's great. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. I'll talk to you soon. Okay. All right. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to that episode. Big thanks to John for coming on. I really just love having conversations with him. Go check him out again at numeral.com and iclock.com. Just his work is phenomenal. He's phenomenal. Everything is phenomenal.

Thanks also to Corey Allen for introducing us. However, a couple of years ago or something like that, big ups to Corey for that. I really appreciate it. That's it guys. I'll see you next week with a very cool guest. Bye bye.