Ep. 66 - Not Afraid with Daniele Bolelli

In my life, I think I'll experience an up really weird stuff happening where it's very difficult for me to believe in the more mechanical view of the universe that is just everything that is around us is just, you know, matter, bodies, once you're dead, there is no consciousness, there is no soul. This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity. Welcome to episode 66 of Synchronicity, my guest this week is Daniele Bolelli, and we're going to get to Daniele in just a second. Great episode, by the way, Daniele, super fucking cool guy. Dropping up bombs in the first opening, so you know it's good. Quick, quick, I'm moving. Literally, as I'm recording this, when you hear this, I will have moved, but as I'm recording it, I'm getting ready to move tomorrow morning up to the Hudson Valley.

So, pardon this if this sounds rushed, or like I'm kind of off-kilter, because I totally am, moving is a huge thing for me. Last time we moved, I developed unconscious pain in my neck and arm, and my poor wife had to do predominantly most of the packing, actually probably all the packing, and drive you hold down herself, so she's incredible, and I have psychological issues, but this move is going much more smoothly so far, so I'm looking for that tomorrow. But, again, apologies if this sounds a little weird. Okay, thank you to everyone who, not even thank you, you guys know what's going on in the Facebook community, the Synchronicity Facebook group.

You can join the group, synchpodcast.com, there's a menu item, Facebook community, I'll ask to join, I'll approve you, we're talking about cool stuff in there. One of the things we're talking about, or I'm talking about at least, is I just saw a rival. Holy shit, that movie is incredible, I'm still processing it, just if you're into anything regarding language, time, communication, you know, it's just amazing, what a movie. Truthfully, Amy Adams, also super awesome, just incredible. Some of the deterministic or free will type explanation, so it was based off a book, it's called "The Story of Your Life", I think by Ted Chiang Ching, I don't know how to say his name, but I'm going to get the short story because the movie is incredible.

See arrival, if you haven't seen it, hat tip to Michael Phillip from Third Eye Drops recommending I see it like weeks ago, finally got around to it, really amazing still thinking about it. Yeah, but the Facebook group, it's really going well. Okay, let's get to Daniele. So let me, Daniele's been on my radar for at least a few years, I first heard him on Duncan's podcast, he has his own podcast, he has two podcasts, Daniele does. There's "The Drunk Endowice", which is awesome, kind of philosophical musings from Daniele, then there's "History on Fire", where he goes into real depth with historical figures and kind of things you might not have known, most recently he delved into Teddy Roosevelt, really fascinating stuff.

He's an incredibly interesting, really thoughtful, just cool dude, you will hear into a lot of things, we go over a bunch of stuff, but one of the reasons I finally got in contact with Daniele is not to mention five people in the span of a week told me that Daniele personally knew them, unprompted. So that's usually the synchronicity that I pay attention to, but also there's a book club, oh, there's a book club starting in the Facebook group, by the way. It was inspired by another book club called "The Sending Apes", which is run by Doug Noble, who's a great guy, and his buddy Jason Abbott, he's also a very cool guy.

But one of the books we were reading in that book club was "Not Afraid" by Daniele Bolelli, and it's about the story, essentially, it's about Daniele's constant battle with fear and how that manifested in his life in a bunch of different ways, but particularly it's about a very tragic story of his wife and mother of his child passing away from a very sudden diagnosis of brain cancer and then dying not too long after, which is, I can't even process. This is the stuff that keeps you up late at night, you know, worrying about your loved ones that this has happened to him, and Daniele went through it, and, you know, him writing about it and talking about what that was like for him and what it ultimately taught him.

And, you know, one of the things I love about Daniele is there's really no bullshit, you'll see a lot of pictures of him on the internet with his middle finger up, and, you know, some people will see that and they'll go, "Oh, that's not good," but really, it is just kind of like, "I'm still here, I'm still standing after all this shit that has happened in my life," and you'll hear that with Daniele. We get into some cool discussions. Daniele, like some of my other guests, you know, they don't hedge their bets in any particular way as to what we're doing here on Earth necessarily, or what the meaning of life is, which I think is probably the wiser way than what I do sometimes, which is speculating or leaning in a certain direction, but we get into some back and forth on that.

We talk about the function of suffering. We talk about MMA and kind of physical expressions of being a warrior and how that relates to psychological states and actually how it really is one of the same thing. I'm not a huge MMA fan, really not at all, but I'm reading Daniele's book and knowing people, friends who are into it and compete, you know, I have respect for it, that's for sure. So really, it's a cool conversation. I really got nothing else to say. I'm going to get ready to move. Thank you to everyone who's subscribing, rating, reviewing, synchronicity. I really appreciate that. Stay tuned for this mindfulness project, song meditation. Did I say songs, sans meditation? I'm all over the place with these pronunciations today.

That project is coming out soon from MindPod Network. You can join the synchronicity email list, the MindPod Network email list. There's so many things to do, or potentially do. But if you join one of those, you will be updated on this really cool project. We have contributions from people like Duncan Trussell, David Silver, Sharon Salzberg, Tara Brock, Jack Cornfield. It's really cool. I know you guys are going to like it. So that's coming up. How about I stop talking? How about that? Get ready for Daniele, Bolele. Here he is. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you again for coming on. Super excited. So let's jump right in. I read your book as part of this wonderful ascending apes book club that Doug, who I got introduced to you like a month ago.

They started with the Joseph Campbell book, which is one of my favorites here with a thousand faces. And then it was your book, Not Afraid. I was mentioning to you, I've known about you. You've been on my radar. You've been on my buddy Duncan's podcast. I've seen you on the airwaves. You have two excellent podcasts, History on Fire and the Drunken Dallas. They're just a really interesting guy, but your name started popping up everywhere. This podcast is called Synchronicity. I pay attention to Synchronicity. And it wasn't just like, "Hey, well, I knew you knew Duncan. I knew you knew some of my other friends, but my buddy Yoshino, who is on my podcast network."

It's like, "Yeah, I know Daniele. My buddy Ben Kovacs, who runs Guardian Gym. He's like, "I know Daniele. What the fuck is going on? This is so weird." I'm super excited to have you on. But in reading your book, one of the things I quickly ascertain, because you explicitly say it, is you're not one for the small talk. You're not one for the bullshit to talk about things that aren't actually important, which I love. Because the most important conversations I feel like I have in my life are with the people who don't really, it's nice to talk about the weather and how that cosmically can fit into our picture, but I really don't necessarily care about the goings-ons of the weather.

So I wanted to start with the meat of your story, at least as it pertains to this book, Not Afraid, which is a, let's just start all cards on the table. Let's start with suffering. I mean, you've experienced, you've had like a crash course in suffering in your life in some serious ways and how you've kind of transmuted that and how it's shaped your philosophical perspective. I mean, in the book, it becomes very clear it's transformative and cathartic, but I'd love to hear, what's your take on suffering? Does it have a function? Why do we do it? What's it like? What the fuck is suffering? Well, I mean, one of the issues that sometimes I have with self-help kind of books or even the stoic philosophy, you know, all good stuff that's all good, right? Yeah. The issue I have to do is that too often it's packaging away as to skip a few steps along the way where the FBI is suffering. Oh, be thankful. It's wonderful. It's an opportunity to grow. It's a wonderful thing that, and it's like, no, no, no, no.

That happens in your life that are just flat out awful. Period. There is no redeeming quality. There is no silver lining. There is no less. It just sucks. And you wish they didn't tap and period. Once we accept that, then we can look at, okay, but what's the alternative now? Do we want to really just stare at our own navel for the next six months complaining about how just the universe is? No, we probably don't. So let's figure out what we can do from here and that we can turn a horrible situation into something better. They have no problem with it. I find it disingenuous when people skip that step, and somehow they make it sound like it's all wonderful. There are no bad things happening.

They are really just lessons in this guy. Rather not have learned those lessons, but if we are here, okay, now we might as well dance and see what we can do with it. Yeah, and this is like a really, this is a tough thing because there's a famous quote from my guru who doesn't have a body. He's dead, but one that was shown to me named Corole Baba, and he has this saying that's bandied about a lot, I think, with varying levels of awareness, which is it's all perfect. Which means that everything is perfect the way it is. And I think if you take that at kind of its saccharine, Facebook, meme, way, you'd be like, "Oh, everything is great. Just don't worry. Be happy."

Which is at sometimes wonderfully practical and helpful advice, but at other times, totally wrong. Like when you experience the death of a loved one, it's not a "don't worry. Be happy" moment. And to insinuate that is dismissive and insulting. But this aspect of everything being perfect in the sense of these are experiences are there for a reason. And now this is why I'm also interested to talk to you because your book, you've dealt with the situation, which is the death of your wife. And I'm a truly man. I wanted to say this when I was reading the book. I'm so sorry. I know it doesn't mean anything, but I want you to know that you're writing about it and expressing it.

It's not silver lining, but it helps people. These are questions. I am fortunate enough my wife and my son are healthy, but I deal with the same existential questions that everyone deals with. God forbid something happens. There is something that goes wrong and seeing someone like you who's gone through it and not saying, "Oh, yeah, it was great. Oh, yeah, I'm such a blessing." But really going through and showing the human emotions that go through this and how you've come out of it, and the book is called "Not Afraid." Could you talk a little bit about A, I want to hear about the idea of shitty things happening, essentially for no reason, and then also how you personally dealt with suffering in your life and how that impacted you at the time and then where you are now?

Sure. I think the no reason aspect is another one where I tend to clash with the self-help. Yeah, I love it. Too often you have this everything happened for a reason kind of thing. Of course, the reality is none of us know anything. That is true. If there may be, nobody knows. It's really a statement of where you decide what you choose to believe about the universe. We don't know. It certainly doesn't help to tell somebody, "Oh, it's everything happened for a reason," because it sure doesn't feel that way. Whether it does or doesn't, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't help, because it's like, "What's the damn reason for babies dying of AIDS at six months old? What's the damn reason?" Don't give it everything that's happened for a reason. Let's look at what one can do in those situations, so they're trying to sugar coat it in some kind of cosmic significance that doesn't really seem to be there when you first looked at it.

So, yeah, that I don't dig this idea that there's a cosmic planet. That doesn't mean that I don't think that there may be a cosmic planet. No, I get it. I totally get it. That's a different thing. Maybe there is, but let's not even pretend like we know or we feel that that's a fact. Yes. So, there's that. And then, the issue of, I mean, obviously, one of the things that until horrible things happen in your life, and I mean, inevitably, horrible things happen in everybody's life, there's nothing. Some people have worse luck than others, but ultimately, nobody gets through free through it all. It's eventually bad things happen in everybody's life.

The issues, when they hit you and they hit you hard, it tends to sensitize you to the fact that our illusion of control, which is a very, you know, we all want to control the circumstances of our life. It's the most natural things in the world. We want to be safe. We want to wear things. And we realize that there really is no safety. There really is no way to control and make scenes always pleasant and good because we live in an important universe where every single eventually goes to hell, and that's it. So, that changes a little bit your psychology because you realize that there's no way to hide. There's no way to protect yourself.

So, with that energy that you spend being afraid and trying to protect yourself, it's kind of wasted because you're not going to be able to win the long run. But then, you know, sure, I mean, you may not want to get into the most reckless life decision sever, and you may want to have a healthier and longer life, but in the great scheme of eternity, it doesn't really make a difference if you decide to just jump without a parachute at 16 or you live till you're 80. Sure, it's one sound a lot more appealing, but, you know, the reality is everybody still dies. Everybody still loses everything that we experience in this life.

So, in some level, that leaves me with two opposite feelings at the same time, depending on what mode I mean. You know, in the best of days, it's very freeing. It's a sensation where you have this feeling of "I don't have to be afraid anymore" because the reality is there's nothing I can do. Exactly. You know, it's kind of the classic things of as kids, they tell you don't worry, there is no monster under your bed, and that's the one that's supposed to reassure your realities. No, there is a monster under your bed, it will come out, it will eat you, and that's how it is. So, relax in the meantime, at least don't spoil until that happens, have fun.

And that's the good days, you know, when things hit me the right way. Of course, there's also the other feeling, which is this existential anxiety realizing that, yeah, there is no safety. There is no, the monster will come out of the bed and eat you. That does not sound like fun. And so, of course, some days you can just say, well, nothing I can do about it, so might as well enjoy, other days you go into "Oh, damn." But then nothing I do is really meaningful, nothing I do really gives me that happiness that I want, because ultimately, you will all be taken away. But feelings are real, and it's kind of hard to, like, if this was the picture-perfect Simon & Schuster book crafted by seven publicists with, you would have a clear arc of trouble, drama, existential anxiety, and then you hit the moment of conflict, and then you come out at the other end, and it's all rainbows and flowers.

Because you figured out the way to defeat fear forever. Yeah, the reality is a bit messier than that, because it's not that there isn't some of that in the sense that there are some things that you learn that do transform, but it's a lot more of a schizophrenic feeling that you go from point A to point B in this clear line. A lot back and forth on daily levels, some days I am there, and it feels there's a sense of tremendous freedom. Other days, existential anxiety creeps back in, particularly the more your life is going well, the more it creeps back in, because life is going to trap, you have nothing to lose.

You know what I mean? So it's easier to be free in that scenario, because it's like, yeah, what else are you going to take away from me? It's something I've heard Duncan talk about quite a bit too. He deals with guilt sometimes, or when things are growing really well, he worries immediately after what's going to ruin this situation. And this is an anxiety that I think a lot of people deal with. Myself, when I encountered that, a natural antidote that I found combats it very well is just cultivating as much gratitude as you can for the press. It's really hard to stay in that mind state when you can.

Now, I do want to delve really deep into this, because I also heard a conversation with Corey Allen about kind of this existential dread, and it was an oscillating time when you were on the side where this is really a real thing. And this is this concept of, well, really, it's the idea of concepts, of holding on to a way of things that you believe that they are to kind of buffer you from the cold, hard reality of the world, which is this not knowingness, right? This is one of my, I've said it a million times on this podcast. One of my favorite quotes is, "Choke on Trunkpuss," which is the bad news is you're falling through the air with no parachute, nothing to hang on to. The good news is there's no ground.

So that is exactly what you just described. This dread on one hand. Holy shit, I'm falling. There's no security. I actually can't count on anything. This thing can come out of the blue and just totally fuck me over. And then on the other hand, this freeing liberty well, even though I'm falling, I'm not necessarily going to smack the ground because I don't have to worry about any of that because this is just some state that I'm constantly in. So this is a really interesting opportunity because, and I love hearing where people are at in relationship concepts like death, life, suffering, because it gives me something to bounce my own ideas and really test them and see if they are solid or just a little game I'm playing with myself.

So I tend to believe, I would hope in the least wishy-washy and new-agey way possible that bad things exist for a reason. And I really do relish the opportunity and I'm appreciative and grateful to talk to someone with you who's dealt with this. I'm not saying this to someone who's everyone in life. Good things happen for a reason. You now can see it like, "Well, no, fuck no. That's not true." I dealt with one of the worst things someone can deal with, so don't tell me that. So here's my reasoning and I don't have, like you said, knowledge of the way the universe works. And a lot of people ask the question, "Well, why did babies die? Why do horrible things happen? Why are there starving children in Africa?"

And I don't say this as a causative, correlative thing, but I say, "Well, thought experiment. Let's say Donald Trump's cabinet and all of these people he's appointing." Let's say the law of karma says, "Sometimes down the line in the wheel of samsaric existence or illusory existence, he's got a reap what he sowed." And he comes back in some situation where it's just a hell realm. He's stuck in this hell realm. How that answers the question and how that applies to someone like your wife? That's not even close to an acceptable answer. But how it fits into maybe the eternal karma of the planet? How you going through that experience?

I mean, how many lights do you think you've turned on for people around the world through your experiences? And it's not something anyone would elect to choose, right? But I do believe things happen for a reason. Now, the reason I bring this up is this potentially is my buffer for existential dread. This could be my conception of the universe that says, "Hey, you're too chicken shit to actually deal with. You have no fucking idea." So I asked this. These are my theories. Now, I'll give you some insight into how I come to these things. It's not me thinking it, reading it, saying, "Oh, well, that seems nice. That's happening."

I've had very deep psychological psychedelic experiences, some that I didn't come back from for months at a time, living in a permanent psychedelic state long after the drugs have left my system. And I feel, truthfully, deep in my being, I came into those contact with these states of being and other realms, whether it's inside, it's endogenous, or somewhere else, that feel very tangible. And it's like the artist calling, right? It's like if you have a calling to write, make music, paint, and you try to do anything else, that shit is going to constantly be there inside of you saying, "No, you got to do this. You got to do this. You got to do this."

So that's where my quote, unquote, "faith" comes from in this worldview. I'm curious as to when you bounce that off your kind of system, funnel it through you, where that sits and what kind of the flaws or holes you see in that that really... Well, that's not my experience, so I can't say that's the way I feel. Right. Yeah, I think it's the way... Because you're right. I mean, first, nobody knows. We're putting in two things that we're trying to find some answers when we don't, right? That does not mean that we don't, like you're saying, have some experiences that do give us an inkling to go more one way than another.

Right. In my life, I think I've experienced enough really weird stuff happening, where it's very difficult for me to believe in the more hardcore science, mechanical view of the universe, that is just everything that it is around, that is just, you know, matter about this. Once you're dead, you're dead. There is no consciousness. There is no soul. Now, I have no idea what the hell even does it mean to have a soul. I don't know why. Something where you have no memory of previous lives, not the same body. What does that even... But I do get the feeling through experiences that there are too many things that don't add up, that don't...

Or rather, that adapts pointing in a different direction, where there are scenes that happen that are like, look, we can play this game 500,000 times, and there's no way that these scenes would happen purely by coincidence, you know? Right. So, enough of those scenes happen to make me feel that there's more to it, and that gives me hope. You know, that does give me make me feel good. What that means, of course, I don't know it. I don't know, you know, karma and carnation. I don't have zero idea what that means. I do have the distinct feeling that there's more to it than purely physical reality.

Yeah, I mean, I also believe that. I also, you know, I've been writing a lot recently as part of... I'm developing a course on creativity, and part of this process is actually me having to figure out how to fucking create a course on creativity, how to be creative. And as I'm doing this, I'm playing through kind of these connections I've made throughout my life or little recurring themes that I haven't even noticed, and I'm sure you, anyone who writes knows this. When you start writing, things come out, you may not actually even know was in there. And one of these things, which I did know, is this connection between the inner and the outer, right?

How inner states of mind and transformations and processes, the connection between those and the external world that we perceive with our senses. And the more I've delved into that, the more I've read about it, the more I've experienced it, it seems to be it is like an exponentially increasing, like it's like the more attention you focus on this stuff, the more you can kind of see the connection between it. And what you were saying, this hope that comes, and you can't actually see it and we can't know, but we can kind of maybe flesh out the analogy that I'm, the metaphor that I'm using now, I use it with meditation, but I think it applies to us trying to understand the ineffable and the ethereal and the things we can't actually perceive with our senses is it's like the wind, right?

If you're looking from inside of your house at the trees and they're moving, you can't actually see the wind, but you can see the effect of the wind's blue trees so you know it's there, right? So these are these like synchronicities and these kind of magical things that cross the boundary from logic to magic. So I also agree that they exist. I don't use, I mean, I play the game probably more than I should of trying to propose theories as to what these things mean and what our relationships are them. I'm confident like you that it exists. I also truthfully, fundamentally believe where we are culturally in time.

And time is a very fun concept to discuss in a lot of ways too. I feel like we're at this point where this connection between inner and outer, whether people realize it or not, is now beginning to manifest much more quickly than I think a lot of the world is prepared to deal with. And we see this all over the place, individually, collectively, societally. And this then, right, it's great to talk about these things and we can intellectually masturbate them about them forever. But then another thing I love about your writing and what I've learned about you is it's always about bringing it back to the practical.

Well, what the fuck do we do now? Now that we know these things are happening, how do we practically use this information to develop something to move forward? So I'd be curious, I mean, like, what have you been noticing in your life and out there in the cultural world going on over say, let's say the past five, 10, 15 years? And where do you think we are now? I mean, you're a philosopher, right? Like, what is the outlook or prognosis or what do you think we can do as individuals and collectively to kind of navigate this situation? Well, I mean, to me, it looks like we need to because the conditions of life have changed so much over the last 200 years, you know, you both have been primarily farmers on the land to people moving to cities having an industrial job, to new technologies that make, you know, from TV, recording, internet, all of it, you know, everything is changing at such a speed.

The people, of course, have not even got the news to operate some of these technologies in their life where they can get the best of it without the damage of it. We're still figuring it out. So you're figuring it out on 10,000 different levels. I think that we need to, in order not to go insane, there are a few things that need to be done at a social level as well as an individual land. And a few two topics that come to my mind would be one is community, you know, this model of life of living in nuclear family, everyone in their little apartment and the next one that you, it just, it's not a human beings are built, you know, we are built to live in tribes.

We are built to live in communities. We're not built to live in nuclear families. So figuring out how we can redesign our jobs, our cities, our dwellings, our everything to bring back the best of tribal living. Now, there are also problems with tribal living because, of course, if you get stuck with a group of 100 households somewhere and when you think about anything else, it's not a good thing. Now, having internet, having access to a wider world out there, having choices of getting out, it's extremely good. The question is not these or that is how can we take the best of both models, you know, being perfectly interconnected when you don't know anybody in 100 miles radius around you is not a good thing.

Being knowing everyone you grow up with in that tiny community, but having no connection with the outside world is not a good thing. Let's take the best of both. So one is definitely about community and structure of living, you know, who you live next to what, along with that, I think there's a relationship with food, the fact that, you know, the majority of our jobs are going to disappear in the next 20, 30 years. There are going to be a bunch of people who have nothing to do literally, and the overwhelming majority of people don't produce the food they need to live. They need to change. Not saying everybody need to become a farmer, but there has to be, again, some kind of system where, at least partially, if not for all your food, that there has to be more direct connection between you going out, planting stuff, getting it onto your table, cooking it, eating it.

And that's like 99.99% of human history has been that everybody need to figure out a way to get their food, not simply through money, and that has changed. That's another big one. Of course, along with that relationship with the environment, because none of this stuff matters if you are poisoning very conditions that make life possible. So there are a bunch of different ones, but I think these are some of the key ones. And they are all intertwined, because they are about dwellings, physical structure of building apartment buildings. We have more like micro-viewages within a city. We have land connected with food, connected with health, connected with the environment, connected with what kind of jobs allow you to have the type of life.

Yes. It's a full redesigning of the way we live modern life, which does not only have to cast away all the good stuff of modern life, because there's a lot of great stuff. And Urahal wants to go back to the 59. Now, that's not the goal, but it's about figuring out how to integrate the best from other modalities with the best of the current lifestyle that's available to us. We're having a little pause in the middle of episodes now for me to tell you about some cool stuff that's going on. There's a book giveaway this week. You can win a copy of Danielli's book, Not Afraid. You do that by joining the email list, sinkpodcast.com. Join the email community. I send you updates about stuff, nothing intrusive.

Not bad. Your emails, I would enjoy getting. So I hope you do too. Join that. You can win every book contest in the future. So if you're listening to this and it's far in the future, if you sign up now, you still have the opportunity to win the next book giveaway contest. Okay. Stopping here back to the episode. Bye-bye. Yeah. I mean, what you're saying, I mean, all three of those things, obviously, incredibly important. And what you're saying is it just, I feel like we're at the point, I'm not everyone. I don't like to generalize, but a lot of people, they're at, they're past the point of, you know, questioning.

Is this okay? A lot of people are like, this is not okay. This is not okay. For so many reasons, this is not okay. Whether you need the avatar of Donald Trump saying this isn't okay or not. People are kind of past that point. But now what you're saying is you've identified, you've done the working of identified. These are three pillars that we could transform or begin to integrate in a different way, create different paradigms that help our society. What I find fascinating, and you mentioned the job stuff too, is across the board. It's really started kicking off as part of my freelance career doing like digital community stuff, but especially with podcasting.

And I'm sure you can relate to this, is I've connected over the past year to years with so many people from so many different places around the world in life who are all keying in to these same principles. These localize whether exclusively digital, oftentimes not. There's a huge local physical meeting space component to it communities. These salon like festivals where people share ideas and mix media and, you know, even technology and ways of trying to better the planet. You're seeing this pop up, almost like kind of like mushrooms all over the world with people having these kind of notions. Some of them aided by psychedelics in marijuana, I certainly fall into that camp.

But others just is a consciousness that seems to be permeating as kind of like this needs to happen guys because if this doesn't happen and whether it's Gaia, whether it's the earth saying this or whether it's us collectively as a species, the collective unconscious. I know, but I noticed this too. It's very interesting. I think where we are historically is where like right in the middle of this transition period. So there's people like you and me and many other people listening who are like, okay, I'm ready to kind of stop playing the game or maybe not. Maybe it's not even a conscious decision. Maybe it's just like every sign is told you, you're not able to play this game.

Now it's time to create a new role and system. Ten years ago when I graduated music college, I knew that the future would be in large part created by creative professionals. That became very clear. Just the people who needed those resources and skills to sustain on the internet, the models from the music industry to the publishing world for books, like everything. They're crumbling, whether people realize it or not. So I saw that that was going to happen. But now I'm seeing people successfully doing it. So I'd love to talk to you. I'm super excited to talk to you about this. Your career has taken many twists and turns and you also had something that I've seen from so many different people who have been in the academic world.

This budding of heads with academia proper and how things are taught educationally, scholastically throughout the world and how you synthesize, distill, and facilitate information and communicate that. So, you know, talk a little bit, if you don't mind, about your professional and kind of, you know, your service and work life and how that is kind of integrated into your life philosophy and everything else because you're walking the walk. And it's one of these things where I talk to my friends, some are on the side who've taken the plunge completely. Some are like me who are basically being pushed off the ledge and taking the plunge.

And some people who are on the other side, like, I don't know. And some people are like, what are you talking about? I don't even know. So I'd love to hear from your perspective what that's been like in your life. Well, I mean, this. One end, yeah, we can criticize the existing system from here till when the cows come home and it's not gonna, you know, it is what it is. It would be kind of unrealistic even to expect for like institutions don't create any. That's not the way they are designed. They are bureaucracy. They are no creative thoughts are to be found there. They are probably dying because, I mean, the reality is that is a lot of the systems of the past no longer work. They don't work in art where you have, you know, the recording labels that used to determine who becomes the musician and who isn't our dime.

Publishing companies are dying. All that traditional system is disappearing. The academic system is more and more ridiculous to a point where, of course, it's gonna change one way or another because you can't have something that's a college degree is that is worth less and less every day, just in terms of what you can do with one and it costs more and more every day. There's a point where it just not worth it. Yeah, sorry. And so there's, there's that. There's the, there's the fact that because thanks to internet, there are new possibilities in terms of education. Like the only reason why colleges still exist is because they have credentials and they can give you a degree.

Because in terms of getting an education, you can get it in a million other ways. Probably we also need to figure out. So alternative way that people can be recognized for the work they do. And also the personal aspect of it, you know, because one thing that sucks about online is lack of personal aspects, you know, that part is not good. So having some kind of physical place where people can meet where, even if you're doing stuff online, even if you do, but have a component where you actually get to see people eye to eye, that helps a lot. So that's, yeah, there are, it's gonna change. How it's gonna change is anybody's guess. Of course, the change is not gonna come from within academia because those guys are gonna resist the change in every way possible.

But that's, that's kind of where it's at. So, I mean, we're talking about so many different systems, whether it's educational, political, you know, all of these institutions that exist. Like, I, I play this a few years ago, I bought Bitcoin. Because I, I quickly groked the principle of Bitcoin, which is it's a deflationary currency, not attached to fiat currency. So theoretically, it should always go up in value as long as people ascribe value to it. I was like, all right, I'm gonna buy it. It's pretty cheap. And it has gone up. This is an example, though, of people detaching from existing systems while using certain economic principles in that to kind of do it.

And I couldn't agree with you more about, I haven't seen in my life top down change really ever before I was born. Let's, I mean, there's some at least politically that happened. And I know that, that it can happen slowly, but surely, but I don't rely on outside institutions to fix things for me, right? Like, and I think this is also a clever way if you're dealing with kind of political existential dread to get around that. So don't worry who the fuck is president. You know, yes, of course, it's going to impact a lot of people. And yes, as a white guy, I'm more in a much more privileged position of not having to deal with some of the things that may be coming from that.

But for the most part, that shouldn't affect your day-to-day consciousness. It is still an opportunity for you to do things on a local level. So, I mean, what has your experience been like because, you know, I didn't actually know this is going to be a part of the book, but I'm not afraid you get to the part where podcasting quickly became a tool in your life that really just kind of flipped the script in a lot of way. Like you, it was relatively easy for me to understand that podcasting more than just being kind of radio on the internet or a way to reach people, it is a potential way to tune consciousness in a particular way.

And that to me, when we're talking about new systems and paradigms emerging, I am very confident this is a huge part of it, the ability to communicate not only one to many, but many to one and this two-way conversations that are emerging. I mean, that to me is a fascinating, you know, change or turn that we're still in the middle of. Yes, absolutely. No, and I think that's part of the issue here is that all of these tools are completely new. They really being, you know, think about podcasting. It's like, well, 10 years or something that the whole thing is, and most of them are not even that old.

So it's, yeah, and we're still, on every level, we're still figuring it out. Because I mean, podcasting, we're trying to figure it out, people can actually make a living with it or not, or the economics of it. There's also a degree of too many sometimes when you know, when you have like 30,000 podcasts out there and start getting lost in the matrix, there are all of these aspects that are confusing to one degree. I mean, confusion is the normal growing pains of stuff that that just that we did. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, that's when that's how the game needs to need to go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I find it, it's interesting to be playing the game, so to speak, as it's emerging, but that's just how that's our lot.

And I mean, I truly think that's probably how it is for everyone, regardless of time, even though it feels so hyper-accelerated because of technology. I think that is just how life goes. It's interesting, though, when I speak to people who are older than me significantly, or a few decades older than me, I ask them like, do you remember when you were my age, did life seem to be moving at this rapidity at this pace? And for the most part, people will be like, no, it didn't. It seems like something qualitatively changed. And we hit some point where things just, it's different now. Yeah. It depends. I mean, it's like the, it has completely changed the game and they're all going back. So it really is not about, that's why often you have this duality of people who resist the change and hate it and people who love everything about the change.

To me, it's never about the duality. It's about this and that. It's about trying to figure out how can we get the best of different systems? How can we get the best of different modalities? So you're not going to resist the change. You can just try to direct it in the healthiest way possible. There's no stopping it. Hey, because it's unrealistic base, probably not even desirable. And also there's no, there is something about let's think where we want to steer it though, because that does not necessarily mean that the change is only into the best possible outcomes. Of course not, right? I mean, I think a lot of these outcomes and a lot of these changes are inherently neutral. And it's up to us to kind of, you know, determine what's going to happen.

So what's important to you at this stage? And I also want to touch on it's something that I actually don't really understand. I've never gravitated towards at all. And I know a lot of people really are into it. Many of my friends, which is MMA. I am not, I'm a professional football American football fan, which is my version of gladiators that we're basically paying to savage their bodies and paying them a lot of money to do it. I can appreciate on many levels, the sport and art. I also have been fortunate to fortunate enough to have friends who are deep into the MMA Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. A lot of these things that I've seen how it's not how I used to think just some brutal, savage, beating people up thing. But there really is a philosophy and a mindfulness aspect and mind training aspect, which is the core, it seems, of what this is.

Rather than the visible actual fighting aspect. So I'd love to hear, because you talk about it in your book, not afraid, but you know, this is your arena to prove, you know, to combat your pussy-nish. And mine, I don't even go out there and prove that. I'm just like, I'm a pussy. It is what it is. So I'd love to hear the connection. Because I think you've so eloquently written and spoken about it, but for my listeners, who I don't know how many MMA fans there are, I'm sure there's a few, but for people who don't necessarily get the connection between the mind, body, spirit, thing. I think what happens is something like MMA as the forces you to deal with fear, no hiding in the cage, so to speak. It's something that's scary. It's something that, you know, you have very primal kind of level.

It's scary because you have another human being who's going to try to physically dominate you. That's not a fun feeling by any stretch of the imagination. It puts you in a very tense kind of state. And so learning how to deal with that type of primal fear as a huge impact on your psychology, of course. The process of training itself, both the training for a fight as well as the fight itself. Sometimes there are, doesn't even matter what you got. There's always going to be somebody better than you. There's always going to be somebody who smash you. And that feeling of when you realize that the other person has your cards, that they don't, you know, they have your number.

There's no way you're going to win. It's a hopeless fight. But just because you know it doesn't mean the fight is over. So it's like, how are you going to handle that? How are you going to handle these? And that's almost a stupid mindset of just giving your absolute best despite the fact that you know that the outcome is not going to be good. It's also pretty interesting because, you know, everybody can fight when the fight is going well, when everything is going in your favor. The mental aspect keeps seeing when things are not going in your favor. That's where things become a little trickier, you know.

So that's the part that gets a little interesting to me, where on a psychological level it does force you to deal with things in a way that you can really get from most regular sports. That's a difference. That is a recording. Can you see? Hello. No, you can do whatever you want. Just don't sing for the screen. I know, but I'm recording about it. No, because I got kicked out by every room in the house all the days. That'll be. Oh, man. It's a funny feeling. I was going to say it's a funny feeling because I'm my son's seven months old and, you know, I'm just beginning to have him to tell, like, no, I can't do this.

It's funny when you have to say something like, yeah, you can be here. You just can't laugh or sing or smile. Hello. You can find the room. No, I can't. Go on to the bathroom. Maybe play. Just don't. Singing and I will make noise. I'm all in use. You need 20 minutes. I don't need much. Okay, I'm just warning you I will make noise because this is my room. I know, too. Okay. I will try, but I'm warning you that I can probably watch. Hey, man. You can't argue with that. That's, that's, that's an arguable. Don't worry. Now I need 20 minutes. Okay. It's totally cool, man. Like, don't even at all worry about it. I was saying, it's just a funny thing to have to interact with.

I didn't realize how much having a kid changes. Like, you remember when you're a kid, right? And like, you wanted to do such a funny, it's the trippiest thing I've ever experienced in my life. Yeah. All right. So let's, let's, I'm, I'm going to be mindful of your time too. What bring it back to, to what's important. I was on the MMA thing. Yes. Yes. The MMA thing. Yes. Yeah. It was kind of funny because the, I've been sort of obsessed with these the last three, four weeks because my girlfriend did their first professional MMA fight on the Sunday 11th. Was that insane or what? I mean, like really insane. Like, I was fast.

That was, yeah, you don't normally see it in female MMA, that kind of knockout power, but that to me was interesting speaking of the pressure and, you know, before the fight, you see the people who are who go after fights before you when they come back in the locker room and they were sitting next to you 10 minutes before and suddenly they come back and they are bleeding from their head and there's all this. There's a lot of pressure and it was interesting to me because I know that no matter how much I've done stuff like that, that pressure still gets to me to an extremely high level. I mean, I can force myself to walk through the paralysis of being frozen with that moment of fear.

She was so damn focused. She was like, on day one, she was 10 times better than me, just naturally that ability to handle that pressure was. Duncan Trassel used, he came to record a podcast in my house the day before or two days before the fight, something like that. And he used the word that was perfect for her because he said the whole energy of the house, she felt coiled and I was like, coiled. That's a beautiful word right there. But yeah, the whole thing is it's a test of character. There were other people who just crash under the pressure. There were people who just went out there and froze in their fight.

And then she handled it amazingly and I was like, okay, that's not just about fighting. That's about personality. That is about character and everything. Yes, I mean, I think what it brings out in the physicality of something like that, it brings out what the inherent character is. I mean, I think, unfortunately, I know it would be in that situation, which is I'm not doing it. I'm probably going to. But I will say this, as I've incorporated more, just like physical exercise and training in my life, the connection between the mind and the body is something that I think intellectually I like to pretend I understand, but until I experienced something that you actually wrote about in the book too, which is I was dealing with.

I had this unconscious pain in my neck that I literally couldn't, I went to the doctor. They said, you know what, it's a, it's a herniated disc, you know, take this blah, blah, blah, blah, take these steroids. I didn't go away. Three people within three days told me to read Dr. Sarno's book. I read the book. I experienced what, you know, he said a very small percentage of people will experience, which is essentially, when you start reading about it, the pain will start to move around. But enough, it started bouncing around my entire body as I'm reading it. I'm like, okay, now I'm freaked out. Like, now I'm really losing my fucking mind.

But there is this connection. My word, my focus, this is, this is my, my word for 2017. I don't like to be too mushy with the resolutions on time and all that, but focus and discipline, those things when applied to whether it's your mind, your body, your spirit, those things pay dividends. Those are the things that time after time, if you show up whatever it is you're doing, whether it's a creative practice, whether it's training for an MMA fight, whether it's, you know, just spending time with your family, whatever it is, you will develop those skills and a capacity that makes you a functional and even exceptional person at that. And that, and I get it and I'm starting to understand the beauty behind kind of the savagery of what you see with these fights, which I never understood before.

Because all I'm seeing is just, you know, people beating each other up. But now, like, it's a beautiful thing and I'm starting to get it. And it's pretty cool. Yeah, I think really it's about, I mean, all sports to me is not about the sport is who cares whether you throw a ball in a basket or not. None of that is important. It's about, to me is about character. And, you know, character shows up in every other way in life, but is less ritualized. You know, sports is a place where, in a very ritualized format, you see how people handle pressure, handle fear, handle difficulties and they'll set backs, handle, you know, it's a test of will to some degree.

It's a wired discipline, willpower. It requires you to develop all those characteristics that then, I mean, the problem with this is that most of the people who do sports do develop that only for the sports arena. And then when they get out of their game, they are the same idiots that were before. The interesting thing is that developing those qualities so that then you can apply them to life works. That's where it's really important. The sport is just a ritual, you know. It's a ritual that's supposed to serve the rest of life, not the other way around. I mean, you just gave the best description of why I think I love sports that I've been trying to explain to people because I've had many women in my life.

Like I said, I'm a football fan. Football, just to be clear during the months it's on, ruins my life. More than it doesn't ruin my life. I'm not very happy. The wins are okay. The losses are terrible. I've gotten better through the years. I say it's my biggest spiritual practice. But what you're describing, that ritualized aspect, it's so accurate, man. That's fucking brilliant. Also, the other thing about sports, which I find very interesting, is how easy during athletic competition one can enter into a flow state, which is really, I mean, that's what everyone is trying to enter in any professional capacity, whether artistically or athletically, like that flow state being in the zone. That's where most people first hear or heard about that state, Michael Jordan's in the zone.

He's in some pretty natural, amazing altered state of mind. So there is this connection, which I'm beginning to appreciate more and more as I get older. And I think also as my body, I'm not old, but as it begins to not function the same way that it once did 10, 15 years ago, it really is kind of crystallizing that. So I have a few more questions, and honestly, man, I hope you get to meet in person someday, because I just, truly, I'm very impressed with you, and so many of my friends speak so highly of you. I want to ask you, before I get to my end questions, what to you in your life, you're someone who has had a lot of experiences and a relatively short period of time, what's important to you when you wake up in the morning?

What are the things that you think we could or should be focusing on that can make our lives more meaningful and the lives of those around us, you know, filled with good stuff? I mean, to me, everything is about making the whole point of anything one does should be about innovating the quality of life, because otherwise, you know, who cares whether you know everything about this topic? Who cares? They are the best at this field. None of the things are important unless they elevate the quality of life. And sometimes they don't, you know, sometimes people get obsessed with one field and they become absolutely genius in that thing, but that does not elevate the quality of life, if anything, sometimes makes it even worse, because they are so obsessed that they completely overlook everything else.

And that's always the danger, you know, to get so enamored with the game that you forget that the game is really, it's just a piece that's supposed to help something else, it's not of itself. So to me, anything we're talking about really at the end of the day boils down, does it help you have a better, more fulfilling, happier life for you and as many people around you, it doesn't. That's the first one question. And of course, we all screw up. You know, there are times when we all do it, where we get so-called in that specific little game that we forget the bigger picture. I do it probably daily. We get the less and trying to figure out ways to make it happen more.

Yeah, man, I'm with it. And I think that's the best we can aspire to is just that, right? If we're just doing that as much as we can every day. And like, I love that I'm with you, man. I don't like people who sugarcoat it and say that that's what it's going to be like all the time. We oscillate. That's our nature as human beings, but those are all opportunities that good and the bad to cultivate what we think is important, whatever that might be. All right. My last few questions for you. What's your favorite color? I would start with red followed by black. All right, cool. Popular choices. What is your favorite number?

Number eight. There's a little bit of weight that I dig. I like it too, man. All right. What is your favorite animal? Any more, any more, any more? Probably wolves. I like the tribal aspect of wolves. They're pretty awesome. And then last question. What's a practical tip that has helped you in your life that you could share with people listening? I think a healthy thing that everybody should do is probably write down everything that you would feel your life with if money wasn't a concern. I would just spend your day. You have 24 hours a day. If you remove the stuff you have to do for a living, that's a whole lot more time than you would be otherwise.

So if you don't have to worry about the stuff you have to do, what would you want to do? And once you make this list, which can be so long and random where there may not be that many patterns there, also then, unless you happen to marry rich or win the long periods, also then trying to figure out how can I turn some of these things into something that I can make a living with. So I don't have to do the things that I don't want to do to make money. That's a hell of a healthy exercise, which I think should be taught in first grade. Yeah. We don't really do it, of course, but it's important. It's a big one.

Most people are kind of clueless with these things, and ultimately, it's your life, so it doesn't really get any more important than that. I mean, that is the practical tip for actually taking action on some of the things we were speaking about about these systems and paradigms and institutions, maybe crumbling. That's it. Figure out what you want to do. Be clear about your intention. Make strides, and if you're like me, and I'm sure this has happened to you, like when you do that, it doesn't always work out the way you thought it was, and what you thought was going to be your passion and your career and whatever it is or what you're going to do.

But I guarantee if you just do it, something comes out of there that you're like, "Oh shit, this is it." That didn't mean it. No, but that's why you shouldn't have one thing, you should have these things. The dose of Campbell, follow your bliss. He was a smart guy. He was a smart guy. Dude, Daniel, thank you so much, man, for coming on. I would love to do this again sometime. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this, buddy. [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] ♪ Down ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Let me walk away ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪ ♪ Just try to down ♪ ♪ Down underneath the sheets ♪