Ep. 64 - Skillful Means with Roshi Joan Halifax

(upbeat music) Anger has within it wisdom. And that wisdom is clear seeing.

This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity. (upbeat music)

Now we all have had, and even a population of non-psychedelic people, have had prophetic dreams, intimations, unlikely strings of coincidences as is all of these sort of things. These are experiences which cultures be not, cultures put in place. I'm sure you heard this word, a paradigm. And then what fits within the cultural paradigm is accentuated stress. And what doesn't fit inside the cultural paradigm is denied, marginalized, argued, against. And we live at the end of a thousand-year binge on the philosophical position known as materialism. (upbeat music)

Welcome to episode 64 of synchronicity. My guest, I was getting so excited, first one of the new year, to happy 2017 to those listening at the time that this is actually the beginning of 2017. My guest today is the lovely, wonderful, one of my favorite top three human beings I've met and known, Roshi Joan Halifax. Roshi Joan is, she's incredible. Her life has truly been filled with so many rich experiences that it's really hard to fathom. So many interesting connections I've had with Roshi throughout the years, I find out more seemingly like every month or two, find out in another way we're connected.

But Roshi is Buddhist teacher, Zen priest, Zen priest, anthropologist, and she's a pioneer in the field of end of life care. She's also the founder, abbot, and head teacher of UPIAH Institute and Zen Center in Santa Fe, New Mexico. That's where I know her from. I got introduced to Roshi via my friend Raghu Marcus, who's the executive director of the Love Server Member Foundation, which is Rambas's foundation, because Roshi is friends, long-time friends with Rambas. And I started working with UPIAH about a few years ago and helped them with some digital strategy and got to know Roshi personally and just got tuned into who she was as a person and what she was doing.

And she's incredible. In this conversation, we had time to touch base. This was recorded right before the end of the year. And she's so nice and gracious to take some time out of her time. She's out of her day. She's writing a new book. It sounds really fantastic. She's written a ton of other books. There'll be links to everything Roshi, Joan Halifax, on syncpodcast.com/Roshi, also minepodnetwork.com/Roshi. And that's Roshi-R-O-S-H-I. So you'll be able to check out everything she's doing. I have some links to some articles she's written. She's one of the most brilliant thinkers I know, but also, and she addresses this in this conversation, goes into how she's also a very thinky, heady type of person, but is able to balance that with her Zen background of sitting practice for 40 years as a Zen Buddhist, balancing this kind of, which she refers to as upregulation.

As she was saying this, I didn't stop her because I didn't want to stop her. She's just talking about really cool stuff. She kept saying the word upregulation, and I didn't know exactly what that meant. And so I googled it after our conversation, and what it means is the tendency in response to a stimulus to basically put more energy into the situation. So this can be applied psychologically when you find out about something like suffering in the world. You want to ramp up your energy to deal with that, which is a very noble tendency in a lot of ways, however, it cannot always be the most effective action, no skillful means, which is actually what you pyre her foundation and Zen center in Santa Fe gets its name from.

So okay, Roshi and I've jumped the gun. If this is a new year, so I can play with the format a little bit, you heard Terence McKenna there at the beginning with the intro, I usually talk about some stuff that's going on. Then the guest that I flipped it this time, I got so excited about Roshi. So really stay tuned for that conversation because we talk about a lot of stuff that I think is incredibly important right now culturally and also just personally. I've watched her navigate and respond to an engaging way. What happens out in the world from natural disasters in Nepal to cultural disasters like me, what's going on, politically, she's one of the people I look to regularly to see how she responds.

So this conversation, we deal with a whole bunch of that stuff. So I want to also quickly get to some basic stuff related to this podcast. First and foremost, before you to any of that, really, congratulations to the Miami Dolphins for making the playoffs first time since 2008. I know there are maybe two people who care if that out of all of the listeners of this show. But still, seriously, that's awesome. I'm very happy. It makes me happy personally in life. There's no real reason for it. The other thing is my friend Eric recommended I watch a show called an anime called One Punch Man. Don't watch anime, not really super into it, not against it, but I reluctantly watched it a fantastic Watch One Punch Man.

If you can, I recommend the subtitled version with the Japanese voice actors. Really great show. Anyone who's watched it knows what I'm talking about. But last few things here, listener questions. I am going to be doing an episode coming up where I am answering or getting guests, previous guests or upcoming guests to answer questions that you may have related to this podcast, related to life, related to death, related to guests, whatever it is. So send me emails at Noah@sinkpodcast.com, send me an email there, use the subject line listener question, and then I will be able to appropriately read your question and make sure we get an answer for you.

So that's going to be coming up. So definitely do that if you're interested in it. Thank you to everyone, literally. Thank you. I cannot say this. I'm trying to figure out a more heartfelt way to communicate through the ways how appreciative I am of everyone who subscribes, who rates, who reviews, who is donated to this podcast. You guys allowed the first year, the first calendar year, last year, to be exceeded my wildest dreams and expectations for this podcast. We're able to get a sponsor. We're able to do a lot of things for this podcast and MindPod Network. And I'm really, really, really very appreciative for everyone and to everyone for doing that.

So just thank you. That's all I have to say. There's nothing else really there. A reminder, there is the Facebook group, the Synchronicity Facebook group. It's growing pretty quickly. We're about to pass 500 members there. I'm really thrilled with the group of people that have surrounded that. A lot of people answering questions that I don't have any answers for outside of my realm, also just connecting people, we're finding out where everyone's from. So feel free to join that and find it on the website, Synchpodcast.com. There's a link there in the menu. Okay. Enough of me. Let's get to this episode.

I really, before that though, truthfully, may your 2017 be filled with as many awesome advanced circumstances and people as possible. I really, I know we feel kind of like we're in a dark period, potentially, depending where you are and how you look at things. I feel 2017 is going to be a pretty awesome year. It doesn't mean everything's going to be great, but I think if your intention is aligned with your energy there, I think it really, it really can be a pretty awesome year. So I look forward to it. I hope you do too. Without further ado, here is Roshi Joan Halifax. Thank you so much for coming on for so many reasons and not the least of which is that I know you're incredibly busy writing a book.

You're always traveling. You're just doing so many things that when I hear a lot of, when people tell me they're busy, I'm always like, yeah, okay, but really how busy are you? But I know the stuff that you work on is actually like world changing, life changing stuff. So I really, really do appreciate you coming on. Well, I'm actually amused by you using the word busy because I've just finished a big section of my new book, the book is called At the Edge, and it's on engagement and burnout and one of the pieces in that section, Noah, looks at both the virtue and the non virtue of busyness, you know, and it's a fun chapter for me to write because I think I'm more engaged hopefully and less busy, but some, you know, great research that says, you know, people who are more elderly or old or middle age or whatever have better cognitive function, excuse me, functioning, if they're busy, so you know, I don't know if my cognitive functioning is great, but I do know that I live a very full and really fulfilling life.

I definitely have recognized that and I think it's also fascinating this concept of busyness because I recently read something where someone, it was something like business book and it was like, you know, I don't tell people I'm busy anymore because busyness is just a form of complaining and if busy just indicates that you're not actually, you know, on top of what you're supposed to do and I didn't fully grok that. I didn't, I don't know if I completely believe that, but I do know that busyness sometimes can serve as a distraction in our lives, like we stay busy to not deal with things that maybe we should be dealing with and I've certainly noticed that in my life and I mean, I will say this about your cognitive functioning.

There are few people I see, I mean, we don't talk very often but I am connected with you online. We've known each other for a few years. There are few people I see who put as much thought into what they're putting out online as you do, so I'm sure your cognitive function is in the upper percentiles for people regardless of age. You know, anyway, but you know, I just want to say engagement is a word that Christina Maslak used in looking at issues around burnout and making a distinction between burnout and engagement, and she says that engagement involves three really important features and they are energy, you know, it's kind of this feeling of wholeheartedness of being, you know, deeply involved, committed, dedicated, enthusiastic, another is involvement itself that is, you know, you're really connected to what you're doing and then the third thing she talks about is efficacy is that, you know, what you're doing makes a difference and, you know, I think that this sense of meaning and purpose is really important in our lives but I think at the same time, there's a zen perspective that's a little different which is, you know, you are wholeheartedly in this moment, mindfully practicing, not necessarily moving at snail pace but, you know, nonetheless, but that there's a kind of egolessness there, you don't need as well to have meaning and purpose in one way but in the other way, meaning and purpose is important because you come from a place where what you're doing is not selfishly oriented but it's really about benefiting others, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I find this to be a fascinating thing because I know exactly what you're talking about, it's this concept of being engaged in the world, I always use the example of when you kind of catch on to the concept of service or helping others and selfless action, I feel like there's a fork in the road for a lot of people at least in terms of their thinking whether they actually follow through which is do I become a renunciate, do I go into a cave and meditate and work on myself for the benefit of everyone or do I go into the world and become engaged and this is why I've always loved what you've done with Upaya and just your life, this engaged Buddhism which is we go into the world to try to alleviate suffering so we can understand the causes and conditions but at the same time and this is the Zen perspective you're talking about is this non-attachment and it's not detachment in a way that I don't want to deal with it but it's this knowingness that at the end of the day, what are you exactly?

Are you the thoughts you have or the moods you feel or your relationships, whatever. What is this, the essence of what's going on? So actually, I mean, there's no better person to ask than you for this. Zen has always been a tricky one for me. I investigate and study many philosophies and religions, particularly the Eastern ones and I think I understand a fair amount of Zen but I always seem to get tripped up. I'm someone who very much needs discipline and rigor in my life but I also am very averse to it so anything that you know posits that you need to sit and stare at a wall or meditate and rigorous and you know drop all of your illusions instantly.

I naturally kind of run away from so there's aspects of Zen that I haven't really approached at least from a practice level that fascinate me so I would love to hear like because you have had an incredible life. I mean, for people who don't know, I mean, your biography and I'll have information on it, it's just astounding from your work with Joseph Campbell, to your ex-husband Stan Groff, to your work with the dying, your grace model. But what was it that kind of caught you, what was it about Zen that caught your attention and ultimately kind of led you on the path to founding a Zen center and all of these other things?

What was there that that captured your attention? You don't know, I think it wasn't just one thing, I think it was a number of things. One was that I was in the Civil Rights and anti-war movement in the 1960s and had the opportunity to meet Ticnathan and to be really inspired and this is a long time ago but inspired by someone who brought together social responsibility, social action with contemplation. And since I was a very socially involved person in terms of wanting to transform the world toward good and very up-regulated about sexism, racism, war and various issues related to justice in our country, this was just a mind blowing moment when I realized that I could be a social activist and I could be a contemplative.

So that was one thing and then another thing is I've always been a kind of heady person. So that kind of headiness meant that I was reading a lot, studying, trying to figure things out, applying conceptuality to everything and then it's much more unmediated, very direct. And so that was the second thing, that it was a non-fancy, plain rice way to wake up. And then another thing is, is my mind needed training. That I was super up-regulated, that I was really suffering from oral outrage and also empathic distress as a young person, I went through lots of emotional changes and I needed a practice that would help me develop resilience and make it possible for me to be in a world of service without coming from a place that I was so wounded.

So that was mind training and that has been really incredible. So for me, in the first 40 years of sitting, it's been a struggle. But I could say in the last 10 years or so, it's sublime. It's the place where I can let go and be more present and is a kind of healing for somebody who sometimes isn't that well-regulated or sometimes I'm too engaged and therefore busy. So it serves like a balancing function for your kind of natural energy and drive towards things. Because I've noticed that, and I often wonder when I see how much you do across the world how you kind of, I've remarked so many times to people, I don't know how she does it.

I'm a notoriously terrible traveler, like I, you know, across country, plane ride, I'm wiped. But I see you flying all over the world. I know you had like a blood problem, like not too long ago and you're still at it. So there's clearly something to this aspect because I also, and I think a lot of people listening to this, also I'm a very thinky type of person. I like to think my way out of problems. I like to be prepared intellectually and psychologically for things I'm going to encounter or may encounter. And what I've noticed over the years is as smart as someone can be, it's not the only qualifying factor that determines your mental state throughout life, especially related to happiness or calmness.

So the Zen practice of kind of direct experience with not attaching, I could see how that would fulfill kind of these needs of this balancing. So I want to apply your personal experience with meditating and Zen to kind of what's going on culturally, specifically in this country, but also just around the world with this, this seemingly rise in populism, mixed with hateful rhetoric and xenophobia. And we've obviously seen this with Trump and many of the things that are going on here. And for some background, my general stance at this, at this point, everything that has happened while it is clearly a very trying and troubling turn of events, I feel like this is our collective chance to face some of the darknesses that have lived, whether in full plain view or not, underneath what has been going in this country and around the world.

It's a very scary, maybe dark time, potentially sinister, but it's totally loaded with opportunity to understand what's going on and try to figure out how to move forward. And I know someone like you who has dedicated a significant portion of her life to compassion and wisdom, what are your thoughts on what's going on right now culturally? And then the second part of this is what do we do? Like where do we go from here? Well, I'm not a prophet. Now, I think you're very bright in saying that the current psychobolitical climate is a liberation of the shadow, liberation, divisibility, or surfacing of the shadow of the democratic zeitgeist, but on the downside of it, that we have been in denial about.

And that was actually part of our cultural landscape from the founding of this country when, you know, round-eyed people crossed the ocean and murdered Native American peoples. And so, you know, Thanksgiving is just like a kind of travesting. And so, I think, you know, the chickens are coming home to roost right now. And that this, you know, interesting and for many of us distressing political situation, where the values that most of us in our country cherish, and I'm talking about people from all walks of life are being in a funny way turned on their heads, you know, it's not that the Christian right don't share the same deep values that the alt-left, the alt-right, the alt-left probably share the same set of values, but how those values unfold in terms of psychosocial responsibility very different?

And so, you know, how do we work with this? I think what you're saying is very true. We're in a criticality at this time. And that criticality is that the visualizing, the making visible of our sexism, racism, ageism, of all of the kind of elitism that has created so much suffering, not just in our country, but really globally, you know, having it right now, allows us to get out of this sort of 1950s, you know, dream of a perfect democracy and to take responsibility at a very fundamental level. And I feel like, you know, well, let's see if I want to quote Angela Davis right here, because I think she nails it, she says, "I'm no longer accepting the things I cannot change.

I'm changing the things I cannot accept." And you know, we have to engage. We know that silence right now equals violence. For us to step away at this time, you know, in terms of social responsibility and environmental responsibility is extremely negligent. And yet at the same time, we need to have silence within, that is to say, we have to have the quality of compassion, first compassion, unconditional love for all sides of the equation, and also on fearlessness, courage, that allows us to engage in a way that is sane and skillful. Because you know, even actions that are considered by some to be unskillful sometimes are, you know, just exactly what's needed.

Could you give me an example of that, you know, an example is that we shout down, physically shout down racist politician. So you know, some people would say that's really bad, but it might be just the right thing to do as a wake up call for that person. I'm not advocating that, but I'm just saying sometimes it's really essential to hold people accountable and to push back firmly. This is, you know, what we're talking about suffering. And we're talking about, you know, a commitment to ending suffering. And sometimes it takes a lot of energy and a lot of, how could I say it, you know, courage to lose against the transgressive.

So you know, that's, I'm just, but I'm not advocating string. Well, and this is something I think about in terms of skillful action, I think I could be getting the names wrong. I think it was, was it Marpa who slapped Miller Repa with the sandal to wake him up or might have been to LOPA. There's a famous story of, you know, an awakened master using, you know, hitting, physically striking his disciple to wake him up and it wasn't done in a nasty, I'm going to hit you type of way. It was like, this is what is needed right now to promote the changes that are necessary to get you where you need to be.

And I often think about this, you know, I always, an anecdote I usually tell on this podcast when dealing with the political realm is the story where Rhonda talks about have you ever been to a peace rally and see how many angry people are chanting peace, like screaming at people. And he's like, that's not how you do it. So there's this question of internally stabilizing yourself and knowing what your intentions and aspirations are, but then with that inner calm and balance, also being able to go out into the world and maybe do courageous and forceful things and keeping those two things in line.

And I think part of the trick is is when we see some of this hateful rhetoric and some of even the people that Donald Trump is appointing to his cabinet, it's so easy to get worked up and angry and just react with the same thing. And one of the things that's been, and I'm generally a very optimistic person and I hope not delusionally so, but one of the things that's been slightly disconcerting for me throughout this process of discovering who's going to be our president and even the Brexit stuff, some of what's going on there is the left, the alt left, the left, how much vitriol and anger I see coming back being directed at everyone who isn't that person.

So basically furthering this us first them dynamic or paradigm, which to me is it is almost impossible to have meaningful change in a way that I think we would like if we're just yelling at each other. So this being able to come together and put aside our differences. And this is where I think compassion and empathy, two things I know you're incredibly involved with and I've studied your life, throughout your life, where they really come into play. So do you have maybe any tips or recommendations for how people can deal with that feeling or sense of reactive anger when you see an injustice in the world and I know for you working through the civil rights movement and so many other things like you clearly come across this before.

I think it's important first to be able to identify the fact that you're angry just simply calling it out. The second is to understand the roots of anger, which often are in the ground this sense of helplessness. And I got this from working inside the prison system where I encountered really angry men, all murderers and all of them felt so disempowered and so oppressed being in this highly structured scary system, you know, system that's fundamentally violent in all ways. So let me just say that anger has within it wisdom and that wisdom is clear seeing and my concern has been particularly around the spiritual cultures in this country and globally is that a version there is toward anger, the shaming there is toward anger and the bypassing, that spiritual bypassing that people engage in as a result of wanting to deny or avoid their anger instead of using their anger, which is coming out of helplessness as an actual energy of transformation that produces a kind of clarity of vision that makes it possible to see the disabling aspects of anger and not to be a toy of it, to get grounded in the face of one's own anger and in the face of the anger of others and to come from wisdom and clarity in one's response to inner and outer conditions related to anger.

So I feel that the denial of our helplessness dash anger is something that we need to address. Now again, no, I am not advocating in any way that we go out and shake our fists and punch out people or shout down, but I am advocating that we actually touch the roots of our anger and transform that energy into wisdom. Yes, yes. This is a concept I came into contact with through Tibetan Buddhism, which is that every negative poison actually can be purified into its essence and anger, what you're saying is purified essentially into clarity and clear thinking and that's a prerequisite for, you know, wise action is being able to clearly see what's going on.

I know, and I mean, it's easy to see in a lot of ways how people, why they deal with anger. I mean, anger just to be totally upfront, anger is my number one issue in life. It causes more suffering for me and other people who I'm in relationships with than anything else and the more I investigate why I react this way and how I can be quick to anger, I realize exactly what you're saying. It comes primarily from this feeling of helplessness, which is a permutation of fear, which is, it's just a reaction and I think a common thing for people to do when they bump up against anger or any unpleasant emotion is to not deal with, to push it away.

I don't want to deal with that. That's suffering. Come on, I'm going to go, I want to be happy. I don't want to deal with this. So I think what you're saying is incredibly important, but I think it's a subtle thing that a lot of people miss because it's so easy to feel justified in your anger when an injustice is happening and you see it that you kind of missed that step that happens in between where your anger may be actually tripping you up from dealing with what is making you angry in a responsible way. So that's a really, really, really important yet tough thing to do because it's interesting.

The polarization I see happening in this country amongst individuals, collectively, the world, it looks like a very negative thing and it is in a lot of ways, but I feel like this tension that it promotes is also the catalyst for change, without it if we were just in this complacent state of mind all the time or everything was great, change wouldn't actually happen. So I try to find the good or the positive in these situations that seem fraught with disaster like Trump having nuclear codes. Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely spot on here. And then, you know, the question comes up for me. Why is practice important in this context?

And, you know, the only medium I know for working with this quality of mind that where there's so much upregulation, where there's so much overwhelming energy, the only way I know to work with it is through the medium of practice or actually attending to one zone and familiarizing with one's own mental condition. Yes, yes. Did you tell me before you discovered Zen, what did you have practices that you engaged in before like a sitting meditation, like what, what, what have kind of, I mean, it's a weird question because before you stumble on or discover like an actual practice, I think we all do little things here and there that kind of center us or give us peace of mind, but do you recall kind of what has centered you or given you the clarity of mind to pursue what was important to you before Zen?

Well, before Zen was, you know, a long time ago, you know, probably the natural world. You know, I always loved mountains and oceans and being out in nature and, you know, I always felt nourished by the natural world. And so that has not stopped. I would say that living in the mountains, serving the mountains as I do in Nepal with just wonderful people is medicine for me. It gives me energy. It's not where I'm just kind of looped down into study and practice, but actually, you know, I'm out there in this very challenging, radiant landscape and offline, which is great and fast. So you know, my eyes aren't on the screen, but my eyes are everywhere in the world around me, which is so big when you're in the Himalayas.

So you know, I think that practice the natural world and service helping others, that's, you know, my particular alchemy. So there's not to shift gears too abruptly, but there's a question I've wanted to ask you for a long time. And it's come out of many of your dialogues over the years with Ram Das, where there's this playful kind of ribbing from you about what life is, what happens after death, what the self is, what it all means. And I know if I'm not mistaken, I believe you have slightly different views than Ram Das on what everything is and what happens after a die. So could you give me your perspective on the function of our reality in quotes here and then also what, and I'm not asking you for like the answer, but what some of your conception of the death and dying state are and what potentially happens after death, if anything.

And I asked this not just because of your position, but I know you've done extensive work with your being with dying program. You've probably sat with more dying people than anyone I've, you know, for sure. So I would love to hear kind of your cosmology of what this is and what happens after this, if anything. Well, you know, I talk with the Dalai Lama says there are 84,000 Dharma doors, you know, there are so many different ways that we view reality. And of course, for Ram Das and me, I think the thing that joins us is love, love for each other, and also love in the deepest sense of how we perceive the world.

That's, you know, one perspective and also, you know, it's two people who've known each other for decades and we've been through so many different things together. We feel we can tease each other. It's one of the ways that we kind of wake up with each other is through teasing. But you know, Buddhism has a very pragmatic view, which it tends to be heady coming out of the Brahmin culture of 2,500 years ago. And looking at, you know, the truth of impermanence, understanding that there is no way that we can actualize any degree of security and anything. And seeing everything is transitory. And that gives us a very unusual perspective, because everything that we would tend to rely on as eternal or real, except for the nature of mind, of course, is a kind of wish on our part that's about futile.

That another has to do with Anatta, and that is the absence of an inherent self. There's the illusion, the sense of, you know, I am a solid self, but it's a sort of reference point that makes us feel secure. But when you look deeply, you realize there is no inherent self. So, you know, Anatta, Prateeshu Samupada, co-erising to understand things in terms of causes and conditions and consequences. Also this is because that is we begin to see things in terms of interrelationship, which is really important. These are very non-romantic, very pragmatic ways of looking at things. And that's just kind of like one way of seeing things.

Now Ram Dass would call all that love, and that's wonderful. So what happens at death, you know, he has an idea that, you know, I forget what his idea is, because it's an idea, he has some sense of it. I don't have any ideas about it. Yeah, I have no idea of what really happens at the moment of death, although the Tibetans write extensively about it. And I also teach about it, but I'm not, I don't know anything, which is the wise response. Do you have any notions from your relative self's point of view? What happens? I'm not pinning you down to any theory, but I imagine there has been thoughts that have gone, and ideas have gone through your head sitting with dying people at the moment of death.

I mean, it's something that most people in life do not take the opportunity. They don't put themselves in the position to be with the dying very often. You know, it's usually a circumstance where they're kind of forced to, you know, a loved one is dying, and they're there at the last moments. But you've put yourself in that position out of selfless action and compassion. I mean, have, you know, and it's one of the reasons you mentioned the Tibetan tradition. One of the reasons I gravitate towards it quite a bit is they write so much about everything. I mean, it just is just like study after study, after study, after study of what potentially is happening.

The Bardo states these intermediary states. So I know you don't have an exact idea. Is that more of a way for you to get to the more reality, the realness of the situation, which is we don't know what's going to happen. No matter what, that's obvious, or is it just, you don't know, just there's no way. And so it's just a question that you're comfortable tabling. No, for me, it's a mystery. And I live with it, sit with it, bear witness to it as a mystery. And you know, I have deep appreciation for the Tibetan perspectives, which are multiple. Yes. It happens peri-death, around death. But I honestly, I would just be quoting other people.

And as I've sat with now hundreds of dying people over the years, I sit with a different kind of mind. It's sort of a mind that doesn't feel comfortable categorizing the experience of the cessation of biological life. And I'm not comfortable with projecting, but open to, that there is a continuity of consciousness after death. But I hope to it. I mean, truthfully, that's probably the most responsible and wise answer I've ever heard to the question because that's, it's just accurate and it's truthful. And I love that. I really, really do. Oh, I have another question for you that is, I find relatively illuminating, and it can mean whatever you want, the answer to it.

But do you have some people or people who you consider successful throughout the course of their lives, whether they're alive or dead? Like, who do you look to and say they did it right? Or that's someone who lived the way that I think a person should live? Well, no. You know, we all have feet of clay. I tend to be, you know, rather realistic in my assessment or not, maybe it's not realistic, but kind of frank and I try to see all sides of the equation. I try not to idealize and I try not to demonize. So, you know, for me, there are pieces of lives that I really admire, you know, like, I'm not going to name names because I'm not going to get them.

But in terms of somebody who has led an exemplary life consistently without ever going off the rails, I don't even know anyone like that. You mean either, mean either. It's not really a thing that happens as far as I understand it. Is there a book or books you find yourself recommending to people, you know, as something that could help them regularly, like a certain grouping or a single book that you give to people? Not really, I mean, the thing that I try to do is to say, please get a good teacher. Please practice work with your mind, familiarize yourself with your mental continuum, take responsibility for this life that you've been given, don't squander it, use it to help others.

But you know, in terms of how to book, maybe I'm writing it right now. Yeah. Yeah. But actually the how to book really comes from your own capacity to turn your attention to your difficulties and to your capacities and to work with both. I just have a few more questions. I'm going to let you go. You know, I am I'm pressing here because I'm fascinated by the man and I know you got to know him personally. Do you have any stories or a story you could share about Joseph Campbell? He's just been such a such a transformative figure and icon in my life and the more people I meet throughout my life, it becomes clear that he's touched so many people through his writing and his work.

And I just I find it incredible that you knew and I know he was at your wedding and I would just love to hear any story you could share that gives some insight into who the man was. You know, he was a great storyteller, a bar. He was more fun than anybody could ever imagine. I would show up at his apartment at 136 Waverly Place every morning at 9 AM, go up to his little apartment, sit across from him as he would talk story. He could really look deeply, you know, sort of read the story of a culture, read the story of a cathedral or read the story of a dance in a way that I no one else could add that I've ever met.

So all I can say is I loved him because he was just an inspiration. He worked really hard, writing for him was a craft and I was privileged to witness that craft in a way that was very instructive for me as a writer and also I think he's really inspired by his wife, Gene Erdman, who was a choreographer and dancer. They both loved the arts, he held the art of writing and she held the art of dance. And actually both of them were very embodied people. And so it wasn't as though embodiment was separate from both of their lives. They were, you know, they were in the arts, but they were also amazing athletes.

And I feel that Joe was probably not that well understood in a way, he actually was deeply socially engaged as was Gene around issues related to, you know, social injustice and so forth. So you know, he really cared about cultural diversity and he also saw the common threads in humanity and he loved the natural world. So I don't know, he was a great friend and also, you know, a fabulous teacher because he loved to communicate his vision of, which was beautifully held, how he saw the world. I mean, I've been reading his posthumously published goddesses book and I, you know, I always know the sign, there's two signs of a great book for me.

One is if I voraciously just tear through it. And then the other one is the exact opposite. If I go very slowly to digest each part and I've been doing that with goddesses and it's just an incredible historical, it's just, it's just such a great book and I, everything I pick up with him feels like kind of like a magic tome and I'm sure it's in no small part to the connections he kind of, the threads he weaves between cultures and time periods and eras. It's just, it truly is and I'm so glad to hear from someone who knew him how great of a guy he was and it's, that's awesome. So I'm going to ask you three quick, very quick questions and then one kind of one and then we're done.

And again, I really, I'm so appreciative and grateful like we, we got this together the last week of the year and thank you so much. So great. Okay. What's your favorite color? Oh, gosh, probably, I mean, the years it was blue, but probably right now it's still blue. Cool. That's my favorite color too. What's your favorite number? Three. Awesome. What's your favorite animal? Oh, I, I believe it is the tiger. Cool. That's a first we have for the tiger. Okay. And last question, if you could share a practical tip that has helped you in your life that you could share with listeners, that would be awesome.

I feel like turning toward suffering and turning toward the light, holding both and bringing yourself into a practice that is very honest and also very loving. That would be my great. What can I say? Advice to others. That is great advice. Roshi. Thank you so much. So much smile, lots of love, happy new year. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening past the music, wonderful people. How about Roshi Jones? She's incredible. Definitely go check out UPAIA.org that's U-P-A-Y-A dot org. Make a donation there. I've worked with them for many years. They're really great people.

It's a thriving cultural center where you can go present studies. They have lots of incoming teachers in. Check out their retreats. There's seriously, just check it out. Roshi also tuned in to her on Twitter, on Facebook, an incredible voice to be paying attention to in the times where we're lucky to be around when she is. I didn't even get, it was in the episode you guys heard it, but she was a good friend of Joseph Campbell's, just a really incredible person there. So thank you to everyone who rates, reviews, subscribes to synchronicity. If you've made a donation, you're super awesome. My boy Patrick knows what's up.

Hope you're having a good time and India, my friend. Seriously, so I got, I just said seriously and I didn't have any more words to come out of after it. So after that. So probably should have get it out of there and I will see you guys next week.