Ep. 55 - Genpo Roshi

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This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

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Welcome to episode 55 of Synchronicity. My guest today is Genpo Roshi. And Genpo and I had a wonderful conversation about a week ago, a week and a half ago. That was before Donald Trump was elected president. That happened last night. So I know exactly when you're gonna be listening to this, but if you are, this is the day after Donald Trump was elected president about two, three in the morning. Even though it became clear, before that, that he was probably gonna be president. Even though I woke up thinking that wasn't gonna happen like many of you. I tweeted a lot last night. That's how I process things.

How I process Miami Dolphins games, which seems so, so insignificant right now. This is how I process difficult things, public things. And one tweet that I think actually still stands out and as accurate is about like 12, 1 a.m. I tweeted out feels like we just took mushrooms six hours ago, doesn't it? And it does. It still does, right? I mean, it really is like kind of a psychedelic reality. So many people I know, so many people across the world are in awe that this has taken place. I think a lot of people at first, like in the Republican party took Donald Trump as a joke. No possible way. He's not really saying anything of substance.

He's just kind of yelling things at people and different classes of people. It's a campaign that is built seemingly on hatred and intolerance and xenophobia and racism. And just it seemed like a really obvious choice. If anything, this election should put into focus that we live in our own perception of the world. We do this collectively through social groups, through social media, through reading news stories, we reinforce our view of the world. And in this particular case, let's be real here, a particular view of the world that Donald Trump was pitching resonated with a large enough swath of voters across this country that he was elected president and he was elected by the popular vote and he was elected by the electoral college.

And a lot of people didn't see this coming and I think we have to look at this a few different ways. One is it's okay to be distraught. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be not knowing what is going on right now. I think that's pretty much how most people feel. Even if you wanted Trump, you don't really know what's gonna happen. There's nothing wrong with that. But remember this, I don't think the protocol has changed for what we do on a daily basis. You do your best, you try to learn, you try to grow, you try to figure things out, you try to gain more clarity, you try to be more compassionate.

And wherever you are, that's what you do. And then when you start to kind of figure stuff out, you extend it outward, starting with the people you know, your family, start being kind and generous to strangers. Those, if we all start doing that in whatever capacity, that changes the world. Maybe that's idealistic. I don't think it is. I think what happened here in this election, we are seeing what's being exposed is the underlying current and operating system of a lot of people in this country. This is kind of the logical conclusion of, there's racism still exists so heavily. Sexism exists so heavily in this country.

Classism of course still exists like everywhere. And this is what happens. It's easier to turn populations against each other and prey on people's fears than it is to work really hard to try to understand something that doesn't make sense. And that's what we're faced with in this opportunity is people who maybe aren't happy that Trump won. Try to understand this. Don't make it an easy decision for yourself that this is good versus evil. I am right there wrong. I know how to fix this, they don't. That will not get anything solved in your life and it won't get anything solved in political life. And I also understand that a lot of people, you know, I know some people are just like, don't vote.

It's stupid. It doesn't matter. It's unimportant. They're both the same. Hillary and Trump, two sides of the coin, they'll show the picture of Hillary laughing and Donald Trump there at some event, you know, 12, 15 years ago. I get the sentiment. I think, ultimately, you owe it to yourself and, you know, younger generations to look a little deeper into the issues and see what separates, you know, ideas and people. You know, what really is, what's the separation where they are in the path? And who do we want kind of in charge or seemingly in charge of what's going on? All of this said, I also want to underscore like, don't freak out too much.

It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be weird. I don't know what's gonna happen. Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the presidency. That being said, you know, there's enough people who care in the Senate to block many things if they're totally outrageous. Another interesting piece of information is, you know, Donald Trump already removed that he's pro-life from his official website and campaign platform. We don't know what's gonna happen with Donald Trump. I mean, so much, there's a part of me that thinks he really didn't want to be president. Truthfully, this was just a mediocre for him and he was just dominating attention and maybe that was helping his business or his ego or what.

I mean, now he's got to do a job like karmically. This is a very weird thing for Donald Trump. You think, I don't get the sense that he's like eager to tackle global problems. It's weird. And Chris Christie, I mean, he's back in Rudy Giuliani. It's gonna be weird. And I understand the compulsion to feel freaked out by this. And I think it's important to stay with that feeling but not get overwhelmed by it. And as always, like I said, I really think you start with yourself. You wake up, you set your intention, you remember your intention, you go through the days, trials and tribulations, just like we go through the trials and tribulations of the political cycles.

If we're tuned into that. And you just do what you can do. Earnestly, try to be honest with yourself about what you are, where you're at. And then that, I really guarantee that'll change your life. And then really like, I think this is important. If you're a Donald Trump supporter, if you're a non-voter, please email me at Noah@syncpodcast.com. I wanna talk to you. If you know someone and you're a listener and you know someone who is a Trump supporter, I wanna talk to people. I wanna find out. And it's not like I wanna like get 'em in like, oh, you're an idiot. You don't know what you're talking about.

How dare you go for this? No, like I generally wanna understand like, the reason Donald Trump was elected, maybe it's because of racism. Maybe that's the only reason. But I think there are other reasons. I mean, I have to believe there are other reasons that Donald Trump was elected. And it's not just because enough people are afraid or scared or hate black people and Muslim people and Mexicans and Latinos. I think that he was pitching. We see that as someone who maybe doesn't think that there's a problem with any, but he's pitching hope to people who don't have it well. Understand that the world is changing at such a rapid rate.

I was spoken about this with guests before on this podcast like 10, 15 years ago, the conversations that I have with people on this podcast, which thank you, by the way, everyone. We're setting records every single episode, every single month, like the podcast is taking off. So it's really, I really just thank you to everyone for that. But these conversations that we're having here, I didn't have a lot of these conversations with people 15 years ago. I was talking about these things, but there weren't a lot of people who were tuned into this. So the world is changing in a really quick way. Imagine if you come from a paradigm where all this stuff is new and it's changing so fast, your world feels like it's slipping away from you.

That's where campaigns look and make America great again really starts to resonate. So listen, I'm gonna try to encapsulate this in. I know this is a long political rant at the beginning of the thing, but it is such an interesting time. Stay with the feelings you have now. Figure out what you can do tomorrow in your life to make your life and the lives of people around you immediately better. Start there. Then if you really still care about politics and all these things that are going on, start looking at your local political things. What can you do? What can you change? What could be made better?

In the good news apartment yesterday, weed was legalized in some form or fashion, whether medical or recreational, I think in five different states. That's awesome. I think as those states continue to smoke a lot of weed, maybe they start voting for different things in the future. So it's not all bad. There's always a silver lining. I don't think I'm being overly optimistic. I understand the reality of our situation, but just don't get overcome by it. It'll be okay. I know it's a setback and I feel for all the women out there and people who really wanted to see a woman in charge and I think that will happen in this country.

I'm very confident in our lifetimes. I don't think Donald Trump is going to blow up the world. I don't think it's going to be as horrible as a lot of us maybe think or playing out in our heads. It might not be great, but I really do believe we're going to get through it and we're going to be stronger. It's kind of like this. I know I said I was going to wrap it up. When someone dies who you're close to or you're knowing your life or something, it really shitty happens in your life. You lose a job, your relationship breaks up. If you look back, if you're in the middle of that, I'm really sorry, it's going to get better, I promise.

I really do, but when you look back at those experiences, once you've had enough time to kind of process it, you realize that's where you grow the most. And I think if we can do that collectively as a country and people who care about other people and this country and the world at large, this is maybe one of those moments where we kind of like it sucks right now, but when we start looking back and figuring out what we're going to do, we look back and go, okay, you know what, it needs to happen. We need to expose kind of these underlying things that are happening in the world and in our country.

Okay, Gempo Roshi, nice segue into this conversation. Gempo is really great. He is a very interesting dude. He has been a Zen Abbott and was an incarnation of a Buddha or dained by Zen masters from Japan. And really, I don't know a ton about Zen. To me, Zen always felt a little bit rigid. I don't know why, it's just like kind of the discipline aspect of it. I never really, you know, I know that the real that God's honest truth is, all the best teachers I've ever had have been kind of disciplinarians. And I've done, like I've learned and grown so much, but I don't like, I have an anti-authority thing.

So I never really like delved super deep into Zen. So this conversation was very interesting for me because we got to talk about Zen and Gempo has his organization called BigMind. And this is kind of a bridge between East and West, which if you know, if you listen to the podcast, it's one of my, that's why I like Carl Jung. That's why I like Joseph Campbell. That's why I like all of these people who are kind of bridge builders between Eastern philosophy and Western philosophy. I think that's awesome. I love those people. And Gempo is certainly one of those individuals. He also has oscillated in his life from very much believing or not, he was very in the Zen world and has gone kind of out of the Zen world at this stage of his life, but it still kind of carries that connection.

We talk about his book in this episode. It's called Spitting Out the Bones. I'll have a link to it on all the podcast pages, mindpodnetwork.com, syncpodcast.com. Definitely check it out. I read it, they were kind enough to send it to me. Very interesting. There was a Dogen kind of quote he put in there, a long little excerpt that was relating to practice and kind of the right mindset to have with it that I found particularly awesome. It's just a great read. He's also got this concept of the triangle, which you'll hear him allude to. I don't want to give too much away about it, but pay attention to that.

I think it's pretty cool. That's it. I'm going to let you get to the episode. This is like a very long intro. I understand it. Congratulations to Trina. If I'm remembering correctly, you won the book contest last week. John has signed and endorsed and is sending the book over to you. I believe it was sent out today. So congratulations. If you don't know what I'm talking about, we do book giveaways on this podcast. Sign up at syncpodcast.com, that's S-Y-N-C podcast.com. Join the email community, putting together a little tips thing for people to you there. I know that's purposely vague, but it's going to be going out there.

If you sign up, you are automatically entered to win the book giveaway contest as they are run, which is usually a few times a month at this point. So thank you to everyone who's rated and reviewed, continues to do that. They're coming in, the donations, love them. Thank you so much, I think we're done here. How has that sound? Not rambling? Yeah? Okay, without further ado, here is Genpo Roshi. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Thank you, by the way, for coming on. I really appreciate it. I know this is like the second or third time we've tried to schedule this and life has come at me and I've had to reschedule a couple of times, but I really appreciate it.

Well, you're welcome and you get life coming at you too?

Yeah, it's weird, right?

It is, it's very strange thing. I thought I was the only one.

No, yeah, me too, sometimes it feels like that. So first things first, how should I address you? I know I have some options here.

Yeah, Roshi is the best.

Okay, Roshi is great, awesome. Well again, thank you for coming on. In some ways, it's kind of fortuitous that we got delayed a little bit because the first time we were supposed to speak, I had only really read a little bit of spitting out the bones, your book, which was excellent, but I've had more time to delve into it since then and I found out more and more and it's opened up a bunch of different areas that I think we can pursue in this. So in some ways, it's a good thing.

Very good.

Cool, all right, so let's get started. This is as much as an exploration for me as it is gonna be for our listeners because I was actually tipped off to you by a listener. Someone had tuned in to what you were doing and they're like, hey, this is someone you might be interested in and I was like, okay, let me do a little research and I was like, oh, yes, in fact, this is someone I'm interested in. So could you just tell me a little bit about yourself and kind of your, for lack of a better word, station in life at this point?

Put a wire on because it's easier for me to hear you with the wire.

Okay, sure.

I hope it's good for you to repeat the last thing, a little bit about myself and what?

Yeah, just about where you find yourself at this juncture. I'm your an accomplished Roshi at this point have been steeped in the Zen tradition for quite some time and I would love to find a little bit more about your particular path that led you here.

Well, you know, I still am what I was and at the same time, I feel quite free from the tradition. So for me, it's like coming full circle and I do write about it at the very end of my book. Spitting out the bones because I left 45 years ago from Belmont Heights and Long Beach and set off on this path, this journey of Zen and it all started in February of '71 with an experience I had out in the desert which got me meditating and I had a profound opening at that point on a waking that changed my life forever and I think after 45 years, I can safely say it's forever. And I left around the end of June, early July, I left my career as a school teacher and I set off on this journey which I thought was a Zen journey and I thought I was leaving Long Beach forever only to return 45 years later, almost to the week, maybe even to the day, realizing that I'd been on quite a trip for 45 years and I moved back one block from where I left.

Oh, wow, that's interesting.

I was on ocean in Long Beach and I ended up on first now and just one block. And I feel like it's been a journey really around the world. I've lived in so many countries and so many places and states on that 45 year journey and in that same time, I feel I've come full circle in that I became in June of 1973, I became a Buddhist follower, we call it, taking the precepts and then by October of that same year, I became a monk of '73 in October. And now it is this many years later and I feel like, well, I'm still a monk, in fact, I'm living more as a monk than I ever have. I've been homeless for the last almost two years, homeless in a good sense.

Yes, in the sense of what it is to be a Zen monkey, you become homeless, meaning you don't have one particular abiding place and I've lived many, many places in these last years, kind of all over the globe, including Copenhagen, Salt Lake City, Hawaii and Long Beach, all these last six years. And I feel very free from the tradition and yet I still carry the tradition. And that's a, I think, a very unique place to be and only can happen when you get kind of old because in the beginning of our journey, we identify either with it or we don't identify with it, but rarely are we having a foot on both sides.

Yes.

Or a work hold, we can say, or on the shores, where I am both a traditional monk for all these years, and yet quite free from the tradition and feeling that freedom as a real unique happiness, I've never been so happy and so joyful as I have been since I returned to Long Beach. Like right now, I'm in Salt Lake City again, I've lived for 20 years, I lived here from '93, really until I'm still kind of living here, it's still my permanent address. But my real home at this point is in Long Beach and I still feel that the zen itself, the zen itself is forever evolving and there's no limit to zen, but the tradition itself has its own limitations as any tradition or any organized religion would have.

And zen is supposed to be free from dogma.

Right.

And yet when you have a tradition and you have a lineage and you have a kind of established church or established temples or whatever you want to call it, it never is quite free from dogma. You know, and zen's about wisdom and it's about compassion. And I think while we're in the tradition, a lot of that becomes a little bit, we can say almost tainted with being true to a tradition and staying within a party line and a party teaching, you know, a kind of way of being that I feel very free from at this point.

Right.

And yet I have, oh I don't know, 15 or 16 now successors and some of them are doing a very traditional zen teaching and some are like myself more free from the tradition and some are somewhere in between, most are somewhere in between.

Right.

And that allows me a lot of freedom because I feel within my own lineage, my successors are carrying on the tradition in a very traditional way. And I did that too until about 2011 and since then have moved further and further away from being a traditional kind and zen teacher. In other words, I don't even have a zen center anymore which is quite normal.

Right.

It's a virtual community all over the world at this point.

So let me ask you this. It's very interesting and I'm appreciative and grateful that I get to speak to you and with you because I have investigated a lot of different paths in my life and I, there's a lot of aspects of Buddhism that really resonate with me for many different traditions but for whatever reason and I've worked with other, I've worked with the Yupaya zen center, Roshi John Halifax's play site. They were a client of mine for a while. So I got an introduction into kind of--

We're very old friends by the way.

I believe I would not be surprised by that. She is very, very awesome. So what's interesting though is I never really got into zen if there's a way to say it. There's the cultural kind of engagement with it. We all hear the word zen. We know maybe in modern sports culture, Phil Jackson was the zen master for basketball but I never really delved deeply into it. I am familiar with some of the great masters like Dogen and Ryokan and all of the big ones but I never really delved very deeply into it partially because I found it, at least in my limited understanding, a very rigid, not necessarily in a bad way but something with a lot of discipline and for whatever reason, I think that turned me off a little bit.

So I mean, I would love to pick your brain or lack of a better term here about what you feel zen is, how that may differ from a teaching of zen in a traditional or in the lineage, traditional way of teaching it. And kind of what your relationship is, you've mentioned a little bit how you've moved away from the traditional side of teaching it but you also, in reading your book and learning about you, you talk about a lot of very interesting things, especially the apex or this big heart and these non-dual and dual aspects that we deal with and that is something that is a common thread between so many different things that fascinate me and interests me are kind of my impetus in life ranging from Carl Jung and individuation to Maslow to in Vadanta, there's so many different streams there.

I laugh, I laugh because those are all the ones I cut my teeth on in 71, 72. I was very much into Jung and Maslow and Prince pearls and at the same time, Christian Merti and the zen masters that you've mentioned. So yeah, I had to get go.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I mean, there in a lot of ways the names you just mentioned and I mentioned, I refer to them as bridge people. They're very good at and they each have like a very, you know, one of my favorite things about Jung was that when he was talking about Eastern traditions or things that weren't where he was from, he was always quick to point out and often that we can only kind of engage with these things from our perspective. You know, we can go in and try to appreciate it, but we run the risk of exoticizing something and making it something different and adding all these extra things to it, which always resonated with me because I see it happened just in the communities that you and I probably have been in, you a lot longer than me.

So my question, I guess, is how does your kind of cosmology of what is going on in this world and what is actually going on maybe from a non dual standpoint? How does that fit into kind of where you are now and you're, I don't wanna use the term, yeah, you get it.

Let me say in 71, in the introduction, and you know, my memory could be as little off you, usually quite on, I read in Maslow's book, Jung, I think it was Maslow, Jung did an introduction. It could have been one of the other teachers, but I think it was Maslow's. And he said that he loved and appreciated sin, but it wasn't for the Westerner. And I disagreed with that for probably 40 years. And now I'm in complete agreement. (laughing) And I feel there was so much wisdom in that statement that it is very difficult not to do what you mentioned, not to, you know, somehow idealize, to make it into something very special and exotic and unique.

I mean, I came out of the Karate Movement, and I was definitely very attracted to the samurai culture and the warrior culture. You know, I was 26 years old and practicing martial arts for four or five years. And it was very appealing. And the, you know, the very thing that turns you off and you turn me off right now and why I probably don't go to many sense centers, that kind of discipline and samurai-like attitude and behavior was a turn-on then, it's a turn-off for me now. And I feel it's not for Westerners because we do fantasize, idealize and all of that.

Of course.

That whole thing. And it's not what Zen is.

Right.

What the culture is and spitting out the bones was an attempt or is an attempt to separate the meat from the bones.

Right.

I know there was the essence of Zen from the tradition and the culture. That's what the book is about.

Right.

After 45 years of being within that tradition and lineage. And I'm still within, as I said, the both the lineage and the tradition.

Of course, yeah.

But I feel, as I said before, quite free from it. I do feel that we get hung up in the rituals, in the form, in the discipline, in the austerity, in the beauty. I mean, it's all there and it's all there to be appreciated and loved. But not to get stuck in. And I feel big mine was, it is, my way of bridging the East and West. I feel it's a completely Western technology, big mind. We don't sit on Zafus and Zabutans on the floor. We sit in chairs and we sit upright. And my whole way of not only teaching, which is much less formal and much more relaxed and natural, is still Zen. I mean, if it's coming from me, it's Zen because after 45 years, I would say I've pretty much identified completely as Zen and with Zen.

But if you look at the triangle, one of the teachings I've come up with is the triangle.

Yes.

And if you look at one corner of the triangle as being, okay, I own and empower myself as being Zen. Let's say one corner of the triangle is, I am Zen, through and through completely. Then if you look at the other side of the triangle, it's opposite, what is its opposite? And who are you as the opposite? Well, I'm not Zen. I'm not the tradition. I'm not Zen. And then looking at how that manifest that I'm not Zen and then owning and modding and powering through and through that I'm not Zen really frees us from Zen. In other words, we now return to be completely a human being that is not identified with Zen and free from it.

And that completely frees us from all the dogma and tradition of it and the forms of it to be what we are and to have all of our likes and dislikes and preferences and all our emotions and feelings and relational side. Where Zen, people tend to get stuck as I did for 40 years. That's a long time to be stuck in the absolute more.

Right.

You know, my experience at the absolute was so profound that I really got stuck.

Yeah, that's a common thing.

Yeah, it is.

It is. And I had my first experiences in the '70s, but in '86 I had my most profound to that point experience which I got very stuck in the absolute, and we call it third stage, where I was totally identified as the absolute. And I went through my next step in '94 where I let go of some of the absolute thinking I had really let go of it all.

Right.

But I hadn't, I hadn't. And in 2011 realizing that I hadn't, that I had fallen more or less on a platform or a plateau which still was about 100 feet off the sea level.

Sure.

And I had to descend even further to become completely ordinary and to let go of the identification as a Buddha, as a patriarch, as a master, as Zen, you know, as Mahavaya or China Buddha.

Yes, yes.

You know, who awakens all Buddhas or gives birth to all Buddhas because in 1980 as the rest of us who do the transmission, receive the transmission, which is called Shiho, we are installed as and identified as Mahavaya or China Buddha, the Buddha of all Buddhas.

Right.

And I had to let go of that. And I did that in 2011 in April. And it's taken me these five years now to let's say integrate being both identified as Zen and free from Zen. So if you ask, "Where am I now?" That's why I am at this place of the apex where I both embrace the two, the traditional Zen and non or free from Zen, not Zen. And at the apex, I call it non-Zen. Both Zen and not Zen at the same time or beyond Zen.

Yes.

It's very freeing because in the tradition, we are bound by tradition. We can't help it. If we're in the tradition and identified as a tradition, even if we're not aware of the bindings, we're still tying ourselves to the rope.

Of course.

And if we just completely disregard the tradition, then we're just the way of the heretics, you know, and that's not it either. So there's a beautiful section in the gateless gate, the Wuhman Khan, where it's talked about that if we tie ourselves up with rules and regulations and tradition, that's tying ourselves without a rope, if we act freely without restraint, that's the way of the heretics, how do we go beyond these two?

Right.

And it's taken me 45 years, and let's say to do that.

Right, right. So let's talk about this because this is something that you're talking about transcending kind of this impersonal non-dual, transcendent, absolute quality, which, you know, I have personally come into contact with. I have made probably many of the same mistakes that other people have made, which is identifying that with too much. There's a great rom-doss quote where it's like, recognize that you are everything and everything is you, but don't forget your zip code. Like that's one that can ground you back in reality a little bit. So what--

And whatever can remember my name.

Well, now I can understand that. You have a valid reason for it. So there's something though in there that I think is very important, which is this concept of being too rigid and bound by the confines or the context of whatever path you're on, and then being completely free and like, well, nothing really matters. Not nihilistic, not to the point where it's like, you know, nothing matters like that, but you know, really not paying anywhere with all to what your actions and the implications of those, and you know, karma and all of these things. So I was reading in here in your book something that I was, I found it incredibly poignant.

There was actually an excerpt from Dogen. And it was really talking about how the idea is that you don't really need practice if you're identifying from the totally impersonal non-dual because you're a Buddha, you're already there, that essence is already within you. However, you do need the practice to realize that you don't need the practice, which I think is a beautiful metaphor for kind of the journey of life and whatever else is involved, because it's easy to say, oh, well, I don't need practice. Everything is Zen, I'm already that, well, I'm good. I'm gonna go have some candy and do something else.

But there is this aspect of anyone who has had any type of regular practice, whether it's meditation, whether it's deep introspection, whether it's physical exercise, whatever the practice that they do to center themselves or get to deeper levels of inside is a fundamental part of this. So could you talk a little bit about the importance of practice and also kind of following up on that, if you want, maybe even talk about this concept of submission and surrender and how that kind of factors into this as well?

Well, you know, I started a new book. Once this "Spinning Out the Bones" was released in the last month or so, I started a new book, which is all about what you're talking about.

Oh, excellent.

And I think it's actually my finest work, frankly. It's not completed yet and hasn't been edited, but I've roughly written it. And it's about half the length of the "Spinning Out the Bones" so far. And it's, I talk about the importance of how important it is to sit. But I don't any longer advocate, nor do I sit in a traditional Japanese Zen way. I found that, you know, I sat for 40 some years in one of the lotuses, either half or full lotus, or Bernice style, all those years. And partly aging, but mostly that what I found is as long as I'm sitting in a posture where my back is erect in the way that we do it in traditional Zen and my legs are crossed in the lotus position, I find that there is tension somewhere in my body.

Usually the tension is in the shoulders, neck, region, or back region, or legs. So the way I sit these days and advocate is I sit normally on a chair, sometimes on a couch. Sometimes legs folded in a kind of Indian fashion. Most of the time with them flat on the ground, but I advocate sitting relaxed and yet upright, not stiff, but sitting, leaning up against the back of a chair in a relaxed manner where there's no tension in the body. And with your feet firmly planted on the floor or crossed. And then having no preference and no judgment about your sitting. And you know, that goes back to the third patriarch in China and also Joshu who really emphasized great master Joshu, emphasized that teaching of holding no preference for or against anything that arises and to me, that's the key.

If we can sit allowing whatever arises either in the mind or we're conscious of or aware of or sounds or sensations and not pick and choose, not saying I like this and I don't like that, I want to get rid of this, I don't want to have that, I'm attached to this or I want to avoid this. If we can really be like the vast empty sky with various clouds, even thunder clouds coming through and not holding any preference for or against anything and no judgment. And even so much that if we do judge a particular thought or a particular sensation, we don't judge ourself or judging it.

Right, right, right.

And the same thing for preference. If we do have a preference and say I feel like I'm falling asleep here and I prefer to be awake, then I don't have a preference for having a preference or not having a preference.

For sure.

But you know, and so accepting awake or sleep, aware or unaware, attentive or inattentive, deep or shallow, accepting at all non-discriminately. And what I have found is that when I and others sit in this fashion or this manner, I go deeper into samadhi than I ever did in traditional posture or in traditional sitting. And I generally sit on my own unless I'm leading a group. And I generally sit at night when everybody else is asleep, anywhere's between the time I wake up in the morning of let's say one, two o'clock, sometimes I wake up that early. And sometimes it's more like three, four, five o'clock.

And I usually sit until seven a.m. and then I start my day. So whatever that is, it can be three, four hours, it can be one hour, it can be longer. And I sit sometimes for several hours without moving, without getting up. In the traditional, we never sat more than 40 minutes at a time or room.

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

More than 40 minutes. Yeah, because you said to not be able to stay concentrated or focused after 40 minutes or your posture hurts or your legs hurt, you know, and you get distracted. I'm saying don't care whether you're distracted or not. Don't have any goal or aim, which is the meaning of mu shotoku, meaning having no goal or aim, which is the meaning of shakantaza, to just sit. So I find that the way I teach it is very traditional in a very non-traditional way. Because people are not sitting on a cushion in lotus, stiff and upright. And I also tell people that it's okay to close their eyes. And again, in the Zen tradition, we always have our eyes open, at least the first 20 years.

And then after we're said, you know, you're told you can close them. Because you're less gonna be less distracted or daydreaming or whatever. I'm saying, so what if you daydream? So what if you're distracted?

Just don't be a scientist.

Yeah, just let it be. And I also tell people, if you fall asleep, have your head slightly down, so that you don't get a whiplash if your head vlogs, you know, jogs around. And sit very relaxed, very naturally, in a really relaxed, natural manner. And sit for as long as you want. Don't set a timer. Don't sail camera to sit. Unless you have to get up and--

Or do something, yeah.

Yeah, I can do something. But usually at three in the morning, we don't have that much to do. And so that's what I advocate for people. And this new book that I'm writing is without any Zen jargon, no Buddhist jargon, no Sanskrit words, no Japanese, no Chinese. It's totally English, it's totally Westernized. And it's for anybody, even, well, especially non Zen people. For the average person on the street that they can identify and relate to it, that's going to help them appreciate their life more. And it's about happiness. Right now, the working title is "Losing Your Head, Finding Happiness."

I like that.

And it comes from a story told by the Buddha. I don't know if you're familiar with that story.

No, no, no, please, by all means, I'd love to hear it.

Well, it's a fantastic story. I embellish it a lot, but I won't do too much here. It's in the book, but it's about, I call it a woman. And Yodata, we don't know if it was a man or a woman. And I say, she was a mother of two kids and she didn't get out much. She was a soul parent. And she was invited to a birthday party one day of her best friends. And so she decided to get a babysitter for the kids and she decided she was gonna give herself a treat. And she went to this party. Well, she hadn't been out much. And she was a very sweet lady, beautiful lady. And she got kind of rip-roaring drunk. She went home tonight, barely found her way home and into bed and woke up the next morning.

But her kids were kind of angry with her that she abandoned them. She left them. And so they decided to play a trick on her and they turned her vanity around. And so that morning when she gets up all hung over and kind of dazed and hadn't had a coffee yet, she looks into the mirror and her head's gone. And she gets very upset and she starts running around the house looking for her head. And she starts screaming at her, 'cause where's my head, where's my head? Oh, your heads were right there. Where it always is in your mouth, mom. And she doesn't believe him. And she runs outside and she looks where the car was.

And she runs all the way back to the neighbor's house where the party was. And she's telling the neighbor, I've lost my head, I've lost my head. Please help me find it, neighbor. Best friend says, listen, you're crazy. You're insane, your head's right where it belongs. She said, no, no, no, no. I know it's gone, I've seen it for sure, it's missing. And so they tire up and sit her down in a chair, and tire up to this chair. And they try to rationalize with her. No, you're fine as you are, you're perfect as you are. Nothing's wrong, you're okay, you've got your head, but you can't believe them. But she starts to hear, but she still doesn't believe.

So finally, her best friend slaps her really hard across the face, and she grabs her head and screams, you hurt me, you hit my head. And then she starts to feel, oh, my head, my head is right here, I got my head. And she's all crazed about now finding her head. And so they decided that she's still quite off, bizarre. And they say, you have to stay here and sit here much longer until you calm down. And so eventually, after some time, she does settle down. And then they release her, they untie her, they say, okay, you're free to go now. And she goes back home, and at first she's so happy that she found her head that she tries to tell her neighbors and her family and friends that they too should find their head.

It's the greatest experience of all time, even though I never was missing it. Just the thought that I was lacking it, and then finding it, it's been so--

What a nice feeling.

Yeah, what a nice experience I've had. And I would like you to have that same experience. So she tries to encourage these others to go look for their head, and everybody says, oh, you know, you're insane, you know? And I look for my head. And eventually, she realizes the stupidity of the whole thing, you know, it's ludicrous. And she just goes about being her motherly functions, doing her motherly functions and being herself. And she settles back and realizes, well, that was an amazing journey, an amazing trip, you know? But in the end, I found what I already had, was never lost. And to me, that is the whole Zen experience.

And this book, I tell that story in the book, and the title actually came from my daughter. I was just with her in Miami for two weeks. And she came up with that title.

That's a great title.

Which I thought was brilliant. Before that I was just finding happiness, but losing your head and finding happiness.

That's pretty great. Now I love that.

It is, and I think it's where I'm at today. So to answer your question, I think that is that this book has been written in the last month, and it is exactly where I am at this point.

That's great.

At a stage of my life.

That's awesome. So I'd like to go back in time, and you mentioned a couple of experiences you had that kind of like, you tapped into this impersonal, this part of the triangle you refer to. How did those experiences happen? And what were they like? I know these can be things that can sometimes surpass the ability of language. But I mean, I'm very, very well versed in that aspect of it. But what were some of the conditions that led to those experience, if there were, and how did that, what was that like, delving into that a little bit?

Well, the first experience, the one I mentioned earlier, February '71, I actually was out in the desert with two friends of mine, one from high school and his girlfriend. And we went out to the desert, and they went off hiking. And so I climbed up this mountain and I sat down on this mountain, and from there, I was sitting Indian style cross-legged, and I could see my VW camper out in the distance. And the question arose, where's home?

Because the camper was home for the next few days, but my home was actually back in Long Beach, Belmont Heights, I mentioned. And I'm thinking, but these are just places. And then I had this profound opening, which again, you can't really explain, but the heavens opened up. And I became one with the cosmos, one with the universe, one with everything, one with God, one with nature, one with it all.

Hey. And Dennis Merzel just dropped away with God, you know? And this experience was what I call a returning home. I realize, of course, I'm always home. I'm never any place but home, because this is home. It's not out there. Nothing is out there. There was no outside inside, no self and other, no family, you know, this is all gone, completely gone. And it was so profound for me, because I'd never had any experience like this. You know, I had done drugs before, and I smoked dope, and I'd done all that in the '60s, but nothing was like this. This was over the top.

Yeah, something else, yeah. A life changer. And it did, it changed my life forever. And then my friends came back, and we were talking and my friend happened to be a PhD in psychology at the University of Santa Barbara, and he said, "Well, it sounds like you had a Zen experience." And I said, "I don't know what even Zen is." It was mentioned to me once before, but I didn't know what it was. He said, "You sound like a Zen master." And so I started, he gave me a book, in fact, Siddhartha, and I read that, and then I started to research Zen. And that's when I began to read DT Suzuki, and Alan Watts, and other people, but there wasn't much out then, right?

Right, right.

There was at that time Zen in the art of archery, something like that. And it wasn't even Zen in motorcycle maintenance yet. I mean, it was--

Yeah, yeah.

It was just, you know, and there was DT Suzuki in Alan Watts, and it was just about it.

Yeah.

And everybody else was talking about it, but hadn't really experienced it.

That's right.

So that was my first experience, and then it was like, that was the earthquake, and then it had aftershocks. And for quite a number of months, and maybe even a year or two, I would have continuous openings, spontaneous openings. Each one just deepening and more profound, the original. But the original was quite transformative. In other words, I felt like I had been going like 100 miles an hour, like a locomotive, in one direction, and all of a sudden found myself abruptly going the opposite direction.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know?

Totally, yeah.

And before that, it was all about, you know, I was an athlete, I was working out for the Olympics, in fact, at one point.

What Olympics sport?

Well, it was water polins for me.

Oh, of course.

And, you know, I was on championship team, so World Championship.

Oh, wow, cool.

And that was my life was my athletic life, and accomplishing myself in that way, and making a name for myself, and being, you know, all that, and also security, and all the normal things that a 25, 26-year-old kid is looking for.

Sure.

And I realized that all of that was, rather meaningless and empty, because there is no security. Nothing is permanent, it's all temporal and impermanent, and any sense of security is false. Any sense of, you know, name or refutation is here today and gone tomorrow. It's all empty and meaningless. And the only thing that made sense at that point, was helping others to wake up and deepening my own awakening. And so that became my drive, and then I had all these numerous experiences of that. I was sitting on a mountaintop in Cuban, of the Glacier National Park view as well. And I was at a place called 50 Mountain Peak, because from the top of this mountain where I was, you could look down, you look down at 50 Mountain Peaks.

(laughing) It was a pretty profound place. And I was sitting there, and I had another realization, and I realized that my destiny was to become a Zen teacher as a master. I hadn't even met a teacher yet.

Sure.

This was just five or so months after my first opening.

Right.

But I realized that that was my destiny. And then about, oh, a couple weeks later, I was in Colorado, I think it was actually a couple weeks earlier. I was in Colorado sitting next to the river there, I forget what it's called, in, what was it? Anyway, it doesn't matter, but I think. And I'm sitting there, and I realized at that point, that we really don't know if we are somehow, it's kind of that, what happened to a loud suit, whether I'm the butterfly dreaming loud suit, or I'm loud suit dreaming loud suit. But for me, it was three. Am I insane? And an insane asylum imagining I'm Dennis Marzell, or am I Dennis Marzell thinking I'm insane, or am I God having this experience of the life of Dennis Marzell.

And it was a very peculiar trick. Now, this one I was on acid.

Yeah, I was gonna say that one. I think I've had that experience a few times, so.

This one I was on acid. And sitting there besides that river, and that was another very profound experience, because I realized on some level, you know, we are God, and we're manifesting as each one of us, of course. And that was my first experience in February '71, too, that I am the whole, and we all are. We're all God creating this life for ourselves. And then there were many other experiences, which I won't go into, until the one in '86. And that was 15 years later, which I would call the, I went through the great doubt to great liberation. And that one was different than all the previous ones in that it was not an experience.

In fact, I called it a non-experience, meaning there was no one there to experience it.

Ah, I see, I see.

You know, it was, everything was just absolutely perfect as it is, you know. And that experience, you know, my teacher confirmed that. And that was '86, but I'd already been a teacher since 1980. And that one eliminated all doubt and really set me free from the tradition for the first time, not for the last, but for the first time. And I actually realized that I was just an ordinary guy, not a Zen teacher, not enlightened being, not a Zen monk, but I was just Dennis Merzel. But I was married at the time, the mother of my two children. And I went home, my wife and I were hanging clothes and I said, something really amazing kind of happened to me.

I don't even know what to call it because it wasn't an experience, but something happened. And I no longer, or I no longer see myself as a sensei, as a teacher, as a monk, as a priest, as a enlightened being. I just see myself as an ordinary guy, Dennis Merzel. But I don't know how I'm gonna make a living. (laughs) And she said to me, well, don't tell anybody. (laughs) She was Chinese, very practical. She said, don't tell anybody, nobody knows. Keep it your little secret and you've got all these retreats in Europe coming up next month and just go there and pretend.

Yeah, fake it so you make it, yeah.

Fake it, yeah. Pretend you're still a monk, you're still a priest, you're still a teacher, you know? And so that's what I did and I went there and I couldn't withhold it. So I told them all my closest. Students, I said, look, this thing happened, man. I no longer consider myself a teacher or a monk or anything, but I'm happy to sit with you and be together, you know? And they said, well, if you don't mind, even if you don't wear your robes and don't see yourself as a teacher, we would like to wear our robes and still have you give talks. So I say, well, I'm not really into giving talks, but I'll meet with small groups of people and we can just talk, just converse.

And I'm willing to do some guided meditations. I had come up with this thing I called Big Mind back in the 70s, I called it a Big Mind guided meditation. That was long before the Big Mind process. And I said, well, I'll guide people, but I don't want to be a teacher. I don't see myself in that role anymore. I just see myself as an ordinary human being. So that was the first time that happened. And then in 2011, it was much more profound and deeper, but that was the first and it happened again in '94. And these have been very profound experience for me where I lost all that I had gained.

That's right, yeah.

Lost everything I had realized, everything I had attained. And I would call coming back down to earth. You know, the same shape of the mouth, descending of the breath of the ascension.

Yeah, and I'm sure that must have, as you're speaking now, and I hear it, it's a freeing experience. I mean, there's a loss of what you have, but you drop all of that other stuff, which is, you know, can be a very freeing experience as I imagine it. These are fascinating stories and the non-experiences you put it is particularly interesting because some of the biggest experiences I've had have been kind of like in obliteration of especially the limited ego, but also just conceptual reality. And when that happens, you know, unless that's it, you're getting blasted off into somebody in heaven forever, you still have to be in the world.

You still have to function with this experience or non-experience or knowledge or wisdom, whatever you wanna put it. And that integrative process, I mean, I think harkening back to Jung and Maslow, these are the individuation or the self-actualization or, you know, recognizing enlightenment in the Eastern philosophies. But we're in a very contextually different place than these wisdom traditions where they emerge from, and even in the past, you know, after 5,000, 7,000 years, it's very different. So this is why I find your experiences so fascinating because you have had to live in both of these realities.

And I think as linear time is progressing, it seems like more and more people are having to kind of reconcile these aspects of themselves, not that they haven't been having to do this forever throughout time, but more people are being faced with these things like directly, you know, in their lives. And there's also this underlying current, I don't want to call it dissatisfaction, but there's this underlying current that is kind of pushing people towards these experiences. And I think, you know, just hearing you being able to talk about the experiences for you and also how your relationship as a Zen master and, you know, an incarnation of a Buddha, you know, the Buddha of all Buddhas and how you personally, from your Dennis standpoint, have to relate to that is incredibly valuable for people because I think a lot of people, when you look at teachers, when you look at spiritual guides, when you look at people who are imparting wisdom or speaking about it, exactly what we were talking about before, this, you know, they can be idolized, they can be put on a pedestal and we can forget that most of these people are still people, you know, very rare are the enlightened master who there's no one there, you know, the only person I know who people have met who have described this before, I know there's been some other examples, but one in my particular group and community is Neem Krolli Baba.

And when people talk about meeting him, they're like, he wasn't a person. Like, there was no person there. It was just a blank slate where the universe was manifesting through this prism. Like, that wasn't a person. That was a being of some sort, but that wasn't what you and I would call a human being. So, you know, rare are those types. And we're not all blessed are lucky enough to actually, well, yes. Or even want to go there. Which is it? Yeah, exactly. Or even having an idea of what wanting to go there would be like, it's not. I mean, yeah. 1980, yes. I felt like I reached a place where I could have made that choice.

Very interesting. I was at that crossroads and I was kind of there. I felt like I could easily become a non-returner, as I would say, in terms of untradition. But I made another conscious choice which I had made many times before of the Bodhisattva. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, which is to continue to be here in this world as a Bodhisattva, as a human being for the sake of all sentient beings to bring around liberation. So, I don't know if I would ever, I mean, I know a person I would never choose that route. It is exceptional, I don't know if we want to be thankful, attentive enough to free ourselves from the desire and the desire to exist.

But, you know, many of us will take the more of the Bodhisattva route. Not to make a judgment that one's better than the other. Of course not. But, at the same time, there is a preference here. We make a choice. And the beauty of the apex, or that understanding of the apex of the triangle, is that the apex, we do have choice. We have the potential and possibility to be anything and it's opposite. So, to be awakened or completely deluded.

Right. - You know? And in Zen, we call that the most advanced or most accomplished state of being, we call it the hazy mood of enlightenment. Meaning that sometimes we choose to appear in the world as quite enlightened, quite awakened, quite brilliant and gifted. And with a lot of wisdom. And sometimes we choose to just be deluded fool.

Yes. - You know? And to be one with whoever we're with, in other words, like living in Long Beach, right now there's a lot of homes long, except one parent's selling mine. That ain't pretty good, I mean, particularly one. I like Bodhisattva making friends with homeless people.

Me too. - You know? And I can be completely at home with him, or with the president of the United States, you know? It's like-- - That's right. Well-- - You know what I mean?

I know this is something I specifically talked about with my previous guest for the episode that I'm putting up today actually, which is this ability to shift modalities, or shift skins. - Exactly.

And I think this is, truthfully, I think this is like one of the best skills people can learn, because what's involved in that process when you shift skins is there is a, you have to start viewing things from the others' perspective. And you have to become the other. And when you look at things, I always use this example, but the more perspective you have on a situation, if you have a 360-degree view of something, you're seeing it clearly. You're not looking at it from one angle and making the misperception that this is something else that it isn't. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and I really think that that is such a big thing to hone in on, because it's served me well in so many aspects of my life, and I see people who really are able to do that with little effort, but a lot of empathy.

Those are the people who seem to manifest things in their lives, who seem to live with some degree of contentment and happiness, because they have experience feeling what it's like to be someone else from a different vantage point. So I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, well, I was gonna actually, I have four questions at the end that I typically use to wrap up, but if there's anything else you would like to get to before then, by all means.

Well, I was just, I was only gonna repeat or agree with what you were saying at this time, at this time, in the world, I do think it's very important that we don't escape into a monastic life for forever. I mean, I think there's a time and place for everything, and I had 40 years where I lived monastically, and I'm not to say that that was a waste of time by any means, and I think it was a very enriching time, particularly when I was, well, both when I was a student and a teacher, but when I was a student, to rub up against other students and the conflicts that come, like pebbles in the riverbed, smoothing out, being rubbed up against each other.

So I think it's very important that we have that available to us if we choose to go more into a monastic or Zen center or Tibetan center, or whatever, setting where we are studying with a teacher and living with the song and so forth. I also think that it's important that we are also able to function in the world, and a lot of people, Japanese monks and so forth, when they come out of the monastery for a long period of time, are very dysfunctional in the world.

Yes.

And, you know, I feel, I also kind of skipped past a lot of everyday worldly things while I was a monk and a monastery. So it can happen. I think the integration from the apex, it's very important, and we live in a day and age where I think it's really important that we have a foot, you know, on both sides of the river or that we really bridge the worldly and the spiritual.

Oh, I love it. I mean, I think there is a quote that might actually be a Maslow quote where he talks about, and finally you realize that the sacred is in the mundane, it's in the ordinary and your neighbors and your friends and your family are actually what this is all about. So I love that. All right, so I'm going to end with three relatively quick questions and then one relatively longer question. So what is your favorite color?

Black.

Cool, that's it, that's been doing this a while. It's the first black I've got, that's cool. What is your favorite number?

Three.

Cool. What is your favorite animal?

Dog.

Great. And then the last question is, if you could share a practical tip for people who are listening that has served you well in your life, that would be great. And that can range from anything, from the most mundane to the most lofty tip.

Yeah, learn the art of relaxation. (laughing)

That's great.

To me, that's the secret of life is, it's so difficult for all of us to learn to completely relax. And I don't mean superficial relaxation, I mean at a cellular level. And that is basically what I am trying to share and teach people when they meditate these days, how to relax at a cellular level, so that we can call it samadhi if we want, but we go so deep into that relaxation samadhi where there's free of all stress, free of all fear, free from everything, totally relaxed, totally at one.

I love it. Roshi, thank you so much for coming on. I'm really glad we got to connect on this and now we put it off.

Well, it was my pleasure, for sure.

This is amazing and I really look forward to this. We'll have to talk again sometime soon.

Yeah, if send me your email address and I'll send you a copy of the book that hasn't yet been in.

Oh, I would love to read that. That sounds amazing.

But one condition, you have to give me your comments back.

Oh my.

Some feedback back and any way I can improve it because like I said, I haven't given it to my editor yet, even it's that rough.

Well, of course, it would be my pleasure too and I can tell you that we're about to release a book from my podcast network, MindPod Network, which is essentially, I think our working title comes out next month is Practically Mindful and it is essentially an aggregated book from a lot of teachers and people where it's primarily focused on ways to stay mindful and aware without meditation. Not saying you can't meditate, but that what are some tips that people could recommend? So I would be honored to read your upcoming book and I'm more than happy to provide feedback.

Okay, so I'm good.

All right, thank you so much. Yes, yes, of course. All right, bye-bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

So yes, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Synchronicity. Remember, as always, it's gonna be okay. I got in a Twitter thing with someone today where I retweeted something that Michael Phillip from Third Eye Drops put out, which essentially, I'm paraphrasing here, but you're the creator of your own reality, even though external forces may try to shape and influence that. And I retweeted that and someone on Twitter said, "They didn't like it." They said, "This is a spiritual bypass. "This is bullshit. "It doesn't mean anything." Went back a few tweets. It became relatively clear to me that this is the type of person who wants to get the last word in.

And the reason I can recognize those types of people is I'm also one of those types of people who likes to get the last word in. (laughs) So consider this me getting the last word in. I'm using the podcast as this, but truthfully to that person, if they are a listener of this podcast, they follow me on Twitter. I understand how one might take issue with the statement that you are the creator of your own reality, especially when you look at it in the context of maybe like some poor suffering soul and like who has no food is in the middle of famine or is it an Aleppo or one of these terrible places.

It's like, "Oh, are they creating their own reality, "Jackass?" It's like, well, that's a broader conversation about what's going on or potentially the factors for that. But I'm just talking about, and I think Michael was talking about, we still have the ability to shape our own reality, even though Donald Trump is now the president, right? Still, you can do it in your daily life. You choose what you wanna focus on. You choose what you wanna do in the world. Maybe because Donald Trump is president, that's gonna inspire hundreds, thousands, millions of people to really make a positive change, to be generous, to be caring, to be compassionate, to be disciplined, to be wise, to look with clarity, kindness, maybe, who knows?

Listen, I'm all worked up. I'm getting on the outro rant here. That's not where I do those types of things. Thank you to everyone who has listened. A reminder, this is for the people who would be interested. If you go to syncpodcast.com/watswats, you'll get taken to the Alan Watts store. Use the code S-Y-N-C in all caps at checkout. You get 30% off your first order. So that means you can get like a pretty 10, 15 bucks. You can get like 10 hours worth of talks from Alan Watts. I recommend the self seminar, the future seminar series. Those are great. If you really want like a whole bunch of stuff, get the extended seminar series, everything is really good in there.

Email me, know@syncpodcast.com. We'll talk, we'll gabs. Like I said, if you're a Trump supporter, or you didn't vote, please email me. I wanna have a conversation. Enough, rant over at the outro. I will see you next week.