Ep. 24 - Paul Jarvis is Awesome

This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity. Welcome to episode 24 of Synchronicity. My guest today is Paul Jarvis. Paul, don't worry, I'm getting to Paul, Paul is awesome. This episode is called Paul Jarvis is awesome, so don't worry, I'm going to get to Paul. I wanted to go over the business, the business, and what I mean by business is I want to say congratulations to Annie who won last week's synchronicity book giveaway, which was a copy of Man and His Symbols by Carl Jung and Company.

This week we're doing another book giveaway, I'm going to get through these quick now, I know you guys don't really want to hear me ramble on about the book giveaways, however, in this episode Paul brings up a book by Oliver Berkman called The Antidote Happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking, I love that title by the way, so that's going to be the book I'm giving away this week. To be entered in the book giveaway contest, all you need to do is go to synchpodcast.com, that's syncpodcast.com, you're going to see something pop up, uh oh, pop ups, it's going to be nice, or something on the right side, or in the bottom of posts, and it says hey, join the synchronicity community, you'll get magical powers, which you will, and you'll also be entered into these book giveaway contests every single week, ask the people who've won, I'm really sending books to people, brand new books, so if you're interested in this book after listening to the episode or right now, go ahead and do that, and then you're good to go, so then now we're going to talk about Paul, and all I can say is Paul got, my consciousness, he came into my consciousness because I was, I have a friend who is just excellent, and helps me with my business life, my good friend Brandon Park, amazing guy, I've been working with him for years now, and he's just, he's always finding cool and valuable resources, that helps me with my clients, my work, what I'm doing, and he tipped me off to Paul, and he said hey, there's this course called the Chimp Essentials, and it's a MailChimp course, and bear with me if you're not into MailChimp or Chimp Essentials, because it's not really about that, so I took this course, and it was fucking amazing, it was really, really amazing, and not just because of the technical skills that I learned related to MailChimp, which I use for all of my clients, and it's just a very excellent platform for email management and communications, but Paul, Paul was just this guy who was presenting information that was fundamentally helpful, but had a way of communicating it that was fun, personable, it was well presented, and I got the sense that there was a lot more to him than just this MailChimp course, and of course that was right, he's an amazing guy, and so I reached out and I said hey, listen, I have a podcast, I would love for you to come on, I get the sense that it would be really fun and interesting, and I was right, so we set it up, we did this last week I think it was, this one's coming out pretty quickly, and I'm putting it out now because it's one of my favorite podcasts I've done, now, I forget who reached out to me, I think it was Caleb who said, I always say, this is one of my favorite conversations on this podcast, and he said, well, you always say that, at first I thought it was a little bit disingenuous, and then I started listening, and it became clear that, no, you actually really, these are some of your favorite conversations, and that is true, I know I use what sounds like hyperbole or superlatives to talk about, to show the conversations I'm having my guests, but the part of the genesis of this podcast was that I could talk to people who I anticipated having awesome conversations with, and thereby making them some of my favorite conversations, and this is certainly one of them, so I want to run through it really quickly what we talk about, Paul is, like I said, he's an amazing guy, he's an awesome guy, I really don't want you to think I'm using those words lately, so here's some stuff we talk about in this episode, see if any of this stuff peaks your interest, we talk about being honest and authentic, and how extending that, those qualities and using intention really are the foundation for Paul and my work life philosophy, right, I think if you're being authentic and you're being honest, most of the other stuff will work out the way it's supposed to, and especially if you're doing things with conscious intention, that's pretty important.

We also talk about the value of introspection, so I asked Paul at one point if he's a spiritual person, and he's like, "Well, I don't really know if I'm spiritual, but I have always been introspective," and he does say that he gravitated to some Eastern philosophies that really placed a priority on the contemplative sciences, so really looking within to find out what's going on and how can we use that to create change in ourselves and then thereby the world. We also talk about, he was a musician, I didn't know this, but it makes total sense, and some of the similarities between being a musician and a freelancer and how there's a lot of crossover and how a lot of the things that musicians and creatives are facing right now can extend right to being a freelancer in any capacity graphic designer, web developer, whatever it is, there's a lot of crossover there.

He said something really amazing, which I love too, he says, "When you do business right, it's service," and sometimes in exchange for that service you get money, but it is, it's service, and I love that. Work doesn't have to be this thing where you go and do this thing you hate, and then you get money for it, and that's what it is. That I know is a lot of people's working experiences, and this is going to go right into the next thing we talk about, which is there's this mindset from a lot of people, and you'll hear this from a lot of business coaches and people on the internet, which, you know, always listen to people on the internet, you don't know, always the way to go about things, but the mindset, right, the pitfalls of the mindset of only do what you love, right, only do what you love.

That's the most important, don't do anything else, and Paul brings out the astute point, which is, "Well, what about people who are garbage men or have to clean toilets? Like, are they supposed to love what they're doing?" So there's some pitfalls with that mindset, and I think Paul deftly, we talk about this little bit, and Paul also has his own podcast called The Freelancer, and again, links to all this stuff on the podcast page, what's the podcast page you ask? There's two places you can find it. One, syncpodcast.com, already told you about that, it'll be at the top, two, minepodnetwork.com/noah, it'll be right there, too.

So all the links I'm talking about here will be on those pages. In addition, whatever app you're using to listen to this, the links will be right there somewhere, too. But back to the doing only what you love, Paul talks about this, he has an episode of Zone Podcast, which is very short, 10, 15 minutes tops, I think less often. There are pitfalls for only thinking that you can only do what you love. I don't think that's accurate, and Paul talks about this, and my experience backs this up. I really love what I do, so I don't want that to not come across. But sometimes the things I have to do for this thing I love doing, I don't love doing, right?

It's work. I have to bear down, do some technical thing that maybe I don't want to do that. Maybe I want to go outside. But I have to do work. So this mindset of everything is this positive thinking, mindset, everything is light and love, and I've spoken about this before, I do believe that the foundation of the universe is love. I believe that. But I also know that there are shadow aspects within ourselves and society and other people that if we just kind of brush those under the rug, it's potentially very dangerous. It's not really engaging with the world. So we talk about that, and the Buddhist concept of grasping and aversion and how that's related.

Paul also talks about, you know, talk about, for someone who says he's not a spiritual guy, which I think he is, he very much is, but I don't think he'll use that label. He's got some real nuggets of wisdom here. He talks about the value of being present in everything that we're doing, right? Rambas, be here now, being present is just the gateway to creating and being really an awesome person and having value both business-wise and just in life. So I thought that was amazing too. Another great thing we talk about is how fear and action can coexist together, that they're not mutually exclusive. And I think this is a big, big thing.

Fear holds a lot of people back from doing things. And even in the past couple of episodes here, the practical suggestions I've gotten have been just do stuff, right? Don't let fear or excuses hold you back. So recognizing that you can take action while you're afraid or while you have fears, that's a pretty liberating and powerful concept. We also talk about creating space in your life, in your business, and, you know, mental space. We're talking about maybe physical space too, but mental space, and how the rewards and benefits from that can be tremendous, not feeling like you're constantly being pushed up against something.

This is something I'm actually developing for my business. I'm shifting some of my consulting responsibilities into creating what I'm calling inter-organizational harmony and spaciousness, really trying to get across the concept of taking a step back, trying to figure out what systems and mindsets create more internal space, which thereby actually creates new systems and ways of thinking that are far more productive and less stressful. And yes, that's possible. Believe it or not, okay, a couple of things we talk about, not having expectations related to what you're doing. This is an amazing tip.

This is something that I intuitively have done in business and with my clients, and it's been incredibly helpful. Basically, if you don't have expectations, even if you have the sense that something is going to go well, that's okay. But when you don't have expectations, whatever happens, you're very happy with. If you have, you know, let's say you're launching something or you're starting a new email list and your goal is to get 5,000 emails in the first two days and you don't get 5,000 emails. You get 100 emails or 200 emails, 200 subscribers. You're going to be disappointed. But if you say, "I don't know what's going to happen," I'm not really sure.

And then you get 100, 200 subscribers or people interested in what you're doing, that's pretty fucking awesome. So that's important not only for work stuff, but in life, too. You'll see that there's this interplay of what is good for business is good for life. Because fundamentally, is there a difference? We're still living. We're still doing this stuff. So I don't think there's really that big of a difference. And that goes hand-in-hand with having clear intentions and really being internally aligned with what it is you're doing. And that I think is actually not that hard to do. Just examine and figure out why you're doing things and, you know, you have clear intentions.

Okay. And we also talk about veganism. Paul's a vegan. I've spoken about my own veganism in the past where I was a vegan for two and a half years. I still eat vegan often, but not exclusively, and Paul has a very refreshing and honest and clear way of communicating why he's vegan. So yeah, there's other stuff we talk about, obviously. It's an hour-long podcast, there's stuff in there that I didn't cover here, but I wanted to give you a little overview of what's going on. Also, again, I just wanted to communicate that Paul is one of the most honest, transparent, clear, and just nice, cool people I've had the pleasure of speaking with.

Again, I really mean this. It was one of my favorite conversations. I think he's an amazing guy. I'm so excited to see what he continues to do online and what he's doing for other people. And you know, I just think he's a great guy. So I hope that comes across in this episode. And you guys like Paul as much as I do. Is there anything else I need to talk about here? Paul's on Twitter. The link will be there. He has an website, pjrvs.com. He's got his own podcast. I mentioned that. The freelancer. Just check out his stuff. I highly recommend it, especially if you're a creative professional, especially if you're doing stuff online.

There's stuff there that's going to help you. It's helped me just in the three weeks that I got tuned in to what he's putting out there. So yeah, really, I mean that I'm not getting anything for this. I think it's just a resource. And if you're someone who thinks maybe some of this stuff could help you, please, please, please engage with it. All right. Let's see. Anything else? Be sure to subscribe to this podcast. If you haven't already, rate and review on iTunes and Stitcher and wherever else, find podcasts live on wherever you're listening to podcasts from. That's all I got. So without further ado, here is Paul Jarvis.

Hello. Hey, Paul. How are you doing? Yeah. Let me turn on video as well. So it's not awkward. Yeah, I know. I always, you know, I always don't know how to approach that when people don't have a video on them. Like, I don't want to be the guy whose face you're seeing the old time from like doing, you know what I mean? Yeah. How you doing? Good, good. How are you, man? I'm good, man. Nice to meet you. Like this. Yeah, you as well. Yeah. And thank you. Of course, for coming on. This is a real treat for me. Nice. We have the same headphones. How amazing are these headphones, right? I know. I've had these for like 20 years.

They're like my favorite headphones. They're incredible. Podcast note, the headphones call and I are talking about are the Sony MDR-Z7s. Back to the show. Not these pair, not this pair specifically, this is my second pair, but I also have the velour lining because the lining that they come with disintegrates, I think because my skin is full of acid is, I don't know, like it just melts the headphone stuff, but these velour ones are like pillows on my ears. They're really nice. I had a pair of Allen and Heath DJ headphones, which I actually really, I love them. I'm a huge electronic music fan and they always like made it sound really, really, really good.

But then I put these on and I've just been going around and listening to all different types of music and I'm like, oh my God, it's just so much. I'm a producer too. So like, they're so accurate. They're so amazingly awesome and it's just a game changer. That's awesome, man. Cool. Synchronicity. Nice. Let's just jump right in, right? Sounds good. Do you want me to record on my end? Or are you good? It's fun to you. I do Skype recorder. I was funneling in through a DAW for a while, splitting the tracks. So if you want to record and then send it to me, yeah, I'll just, that's really cool. Not a bad idea to just grab my local audio.

All right. There we go. Awesome. I'm so glad you have a mic too. That's awesome. I have, I, you know, I work in with a lot of spiritual clients and they are not the most technically savvy at times as I'm sure you can imagine. So I do get a fair number of ones I have to clean up and like do some real audio engineering on. So I'm so very happy. Yeah. I'm a podcaster. Yeah, man. And I come from a music and audio background. Oh, cool. Really? How so? Tell me. I was in a band for a very long time touring and studio work. Yeah. What kind of music? All over the place, some like hard rock metal, some acoustic bokeh rock stuff.

Yeah. Oh, man. Is guitar? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And the lead guitar player with a loop. Ah, I'm going to check it out. I didn't know. That's awesome, man. I, I went to a music school. I graduated from Berkeley College of Music in the, in the States. Nice. Yeah. My wife went to school for the audio engineering and music business stuff too. So that's pretty cool. Awesome, man. That's really cool. Well, there's a lot of synchronicities here, which is obviously the end of the podcast. One of, I want to actually start with one that I was just listening and I was listening to your weekly short podcast, the freelancer.

And I saw you had, and you just posted it on Twitter too, where we were just talking, that is, you know, there's a war going on for your mind. And you use this parable of the two wolves, which is actually, I had Eric Zimmer from a podcast called the one you feed, where he actually starts every podcast with that parable, which I think is brilliant, by the way, such hearing people's different takes on it is amazing. And I love it. But I was listening to your little short thing on it and amazing, by the way. So I, I wanted to start there. You mentioned a few different things in there, you know, moving past doubt, gamut of emotions.

I was interested in how did you kind of develop your, what I'm assuming is a work life philosophy, because it seems pretty clear to me that it, you're being a very authentic person and just kind of emanating out from you. And I'm just curious, like, how did that evolve? I know you've been doing freelance for 20 years and you put together so many amazing things, but yeah, I'm fascinated. Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to that everybody wants to be honest with themselves, like everybody wants to be, like, either thought of as an honest person or just honest with their own shit and their brains, but I think it's not as easy as that.

It would be nice if it was just like, I want to be honest. So they're, therefore, honesty, but I think honesty requires, especially like self honesty, I think that requires like, introspection and thinking about things and why things matter or don't matter or are important or not important. And I think a lot of it is just like, I'm such an overthinker that and really neurotic about it. So I think a lot of my life stuff just comes from the fact that I spend way too much time thinking about all of those things and then writing about me thinking about all of those things and then recording a podcast about me writing about thinking about all of those things.

So my life is kind of structured around that. Hmm. That makes a lot of sense. But also, like, it's pretty clear, like, I just, to be clear of how I got tuned into you and what you're doing. I had a friend who did a lot of business development last year and he said, listen, I'm using MailChimp for everything, right? I have all of my clients, all of my really using it. And I watched your Chimpas. I took your Chimpas central scores. And it's amazing and it's incredibly helpful. And that is the other key thing I notice and almost everything you've put out or I've connected with you on is like, there's a huge aspect of service and providing value for people.

And that seems to be a key element of what you're doing. I think business is, well, okay. I think business done right is service, is servitude. And I mean, commerce is definitely involved in, like, I love money, I have no problem with money, but I think business, I think money is the result of that service. So I think if you're going into business and you don't care about service, then it's really difficult to, maybe you should work for somebody else where it's somebody else's job to worry about service and it's just your job to do the thing that you do. And I look for a lot of people that work for themselves or that are starting out working for themselves, it's kind of a hard lesson to learn sometimes, especially when the other person isn't respectful or doesn't listen to you or doesn't want to collaborate or just wants to like complain at you until they feel satiated in some way.

Yeah. No, I mean, that makes a ton of sense. I've, you know, I've been doing this now for myself for about five to seven years, like I said, I went to a music school. Your options are somewhat limited with a music degree, no matter what it is, like there's a few places you can move to get gigging work or some studio stuff, but really like it is. And I've been a, I actually want to, this is another cool thing we could talk about. What like, to me, the music industry of what you're saying, you're, you've been a part of is been so obviously it's changed, right? Honestly, like digital, obviously now streaming services, but to me, what became very clear is the successful new breed of musicians would also need to have some element of creative professional built in because that's what it requires now.

So I'd let like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. It was interesting that a lot of what I learned about business and about like being a freelance web designer, 100% applied to being like a touring musician with like we, we weren't signed to anybody, we actually turned down some record deals because if you know how to read a contract, yeah, it's not a good idea. So we did it all ourselves, right? And it's the same skills, it's like, okay, well, how do you find the right audience or right niche for the music that you do? How do you find the right people in the right cities? And so like the band was myself and my wife at the time, the one that we toured the most with.

And her job was to find like the venue and set up the gig and all of that. And my job was the marketing. So if we were on tour, we were going to cities that may not, like where we lived, we people knew who we were and we won like best of awards and stuff like that. But in other cities, that doesn't matter. Absolutely no difference because they've not heard of you. So it was like, my job was to figure out, okay, like what, where are people already tuning in for music like ours that if they heard us, they would be fans, like they're fans of us. They just don't know that they're fans of us yet. And the same thing applies to the internet.

It's like, you have to find your people that would be a fan of what you do. They just don't know who you are yet. And as soon as they're introduced to you, then they're like, this person, it's like I get emails from my mailing list all the time. They're like, I didn't know who you were, but I love your work now. It's like, there you go. It's done. It's fascinating to me to hear you say that because when I first started, you know, I started building websites for people and then moving into more digital strategy and like systems. And that's what I would always say. It's like, people already love you.

They just don't know who you are. And I think that's amazing to hear. I mean, that was my experience with you, too. Like I, I think there are people out there who have an ability to discern very quickly, like what, who a person is, especially if they're being authentic, which I know is kind of like a buzz word at this point, even though it shouldn't be. But I think that was immediately something I keyed into. I wanted to talk about something else. And I admittedly, and you tweeted about this, I did do research because I've, I do some of these where I do no research and those flow well. I tend to like to do those in person, but for the Skype ones, I like to do a little bit of research, but you had another really interesting mini podcast thing.

I guess they're, they're not mini podcasts for you. They're just the lengths of it. But compared to mine, you, you spoke about the potential pitfalls of only doing what you love. And I want to relate this kind of something because this podcast is semi spiritual, semi just stuff I'm interested in, you know, I, I, what you said and allow you to explain it to. But it made sense because like in the spiritual sector in the world and the new age world, there's this huge positive thinking meme move. I mean, anyone who's been on the web on Facebook anywhere, they see it Instagram, not be positive. Everything's going to work out.

Everything's going to be great. And to me, that totally undercuts, undercuts a hugely important thing, which is, you know, realizing we all have shadow elements of ourselves. We all have shit that we have to deal with. It's not always hunky dory all the time. And I thought what you were talking about specifically related to work, like there's garbage men, there's people who have to clean up shit, like they might not love that as much as you love doing whatever it is you're doing. I thought that was a nice kind of interplay there from what I've seen. So could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah.

And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that we are like, we are in such a good, like in the Western world for the majority of people, we are in such a good place that we even worry about this stuff. Like I want to do what I love. It's like there are so many people in the world that just doing something that gives them money for food and water, it's like we're in such an awesome place with our collective lives in our society that this is shit that we actually worry about. Am I doing something that is like fulfilling to me existentially? And it's like when you think about like that is a bit ridiculous, but like I still worry about that myself and I have so many other people do.

And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that you can love what you do, but not necessarily love the trappings of it at all times. So for example, like if I like had done web design longer than anything else in my entire life, some days I would wake up and want to kill every single one of my clients because they were stressing me out. I still love doing web design, I just, I have bad days. That's okay. Sometimes like, I don't know, I just, yeah, the whole PMA thing just, it just seems like they're going to erupt in like a fury in line at a bank or something. Right. As someone who has erupted in a fury at a bank, I can tell that there's a logical conclusion if you're just bottling everything out.

I mean, it's just not a realistic way of engaging with the world either. And I get the allure of it and this is something else you speak about. It's easier to just pretend like that's what's going on. Like you don't have to actually engage. I mean, this is a, the Buddhist concept there. Each equally is dangerous, right? We're asking in a version and you don't want to swing on the pendulum all the way. Exactly. Exactly. You want to stay medium. So yeah, are you spiritual person? I know that's a vague word, but no, do you, do you have a meditation, do you do anything like that? A little bit. Right now I'm holding a rosary made out of actual roses.

Like this is. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. That's actually where the word rosary comes from is I, it's somebody before Christians. I think it was in India. You boil roses and water until it makes this black tar. You roll them up into little beads. And then I think Christians saw they were like, that's really cool. What should we call it? It's made of roses. I don't know. Maybe rosary. But yeah, so like I, I say no, but like I do, I guess for me it's like, I guess what some people would call spirituality. I just call introspection, but I, I think about things. I think about, I try to be intentional with what I do.

I try to have like morals and values and that sort of thing. And I try to put like good energy into the world and not be negative all the time and not be positive all the time either. Right? But like I don't in my brain because I'm more of like, I guess a science and math kind of guy. Like I don't really think of that as spirituality and like I don't necessarily relate to any one group of people. Yeah. Like I just, I'm so anti-authority. It's not like the best thing to be, to be perfectly honest that like I can't get behind groups of people doing things. It doesn't matter if it's related, it doesn't matter if it's anything.

I just can't get behind groups of people doing things. I so totally get that. I really, really get that. That's interesting. For me, I think I am very much like a skeptic and kind of naturally anti spiritual stuff to in a sense like I have gravitated towards it in my life. Obviously, I've had direct experiences that kind of just like beat me over the head. It's like, Hey, dummy, like this is something that's going on. So I can't be like, Oh, well, I don't know about that. Like at a certain point it just becomes overwhelming. Like how did you just, have you always been like this? Like, I mean, because there's there's what you call introspection, what I'm calling spirituality, which is a vague nebulous term, which maybe we're talking about the exact same thing.

Exactly. Did you have to cultivate it or was it always there? Like how did that come about? No, I think it's definitely cultivated like growing up. I was, I grew up Roman Catholic like I went to school and church and communion and the final confirmation. That was part of my life, but that was more I feel like for me and for a lot of people in the Western world, that's more of a social thing. I'm not trying to downplay it. I just that to me seems like this is what you do as a society, like you do these things and you don't really think about it and you make tapes of teachings and apply to your life.

But it's not like your life doesn't revolve around it necessarily or not for the majority people that just go to church on Sunday or just go to church on like Easter and Christmas and that sort of thing like the pop ins. But yeah, so like I grew up with that but it was never, like it was never, I don't know, it was never something. It was just something that we did because that's what we did because that's what my parents parents did. And that's well, my dad didn't because he's British so he never really cared about that. Too cool for school, the brass. I mean, that makes sense to me because that was my relationship pretty much with Judaism.

I grew up Jewish and go to temple and I got confirmed at a bar mitzvah and I got some of kind of maybe the deeper esoteric stuff on some level. But on another level, I was a kid and like this just was not interesting to me too. Like it like now, looking back, there's some really like, there's some stuff in Jewish mysticism that's fascinating to me. But I get that. So you developed it, I guess what outside of that actively or was it based on experience? I mean, obviously experiential stuff, but how? Yeah. It's just something that's kind of evolved as like a personal thing for me. And that's it just kind of like where my mind wanders and like I do, like I do things like meditation and yoga and that sort of thing, but then I also don't really, I guess I lean a bit more Eastern than Western just in the way that they come to conclusions about things and the way that they question things.

Yes. And that to me kind of makes sense, but I also like I wouldn't consider myself like a Buddhist or something like that. It's just that's kind of the way that they think is similar to the way that my mind just comes to similar conclusions. So it's just something that I kind of, I've not really thought about or I've not really been intentional about like, okay, I need to find like my spirituality or I need to find like what I'm about in terms of that is just something that's kind of I guess developed as like overthinking neurosis, like everything else in my life, pretty much. I get that too. I definitely can relate to that.

Do you believe in reincarnation? You can, we can not know too. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think I do. I guess it's probably the most honest answer is that, but then I wouldn't be like really surprised. I guess if something was like, yeah, well, guess what Paul, it's like, I try to keep an open mind, but I also, I'm, I guess, then that's the other thing with related, I'm okay with not knowing the answer to the thing, like I'm okay, like what happens when this like sack of meat that I am stops existing. I don't know what happens. I'm 100% okay with not knowing. I'll figure it out when that happens.

If nothing happens and I'm not going to be the wiser, something else happens and I hope it's good. See, that's so, that's so Buddhist of you. It's something Buddhism called, uh, don't know mind or beginners mind, right? Yeah. Not, I mean, it's funny. The reason I asked these questions too is that I don't want to, you know, apply something to it that isn't there, but just from your regular communications, the emails that you sent out for your Sunday dispatch, the podcasts that you put out, even in something as technical as the MailChimp course, there's clearly elements of what a lot of these Eastern and even, you know, the Western stuff at their core, I think there's a level of compassion.

There's a level of generosity. There's a level of just, you know, wisdom obviously with these things. And that's why I asked the questions because it's there, you know, you maybe you're a science guy. No, I don't really know, but it shines through in a way, which to me is, you know, whatever people label that as, I don't, I don't, I couldn't care if you said, no, I don't believe in reincarnation. That's stupid. Anyone who believes in that is dumb. Oh, yeah. I'd be like, oh, maybe I disagree, but it's the quality of the person and what they're bringing with their consciousness that I think ultimately matters and yeah.

Yeah. Cool. And a lot of that comes down to like purpose, like I'm not going to make something for no reason. I want to make something for a reason, even if it's like a technical like MailChimp course that the reason I'm making it is because I like, I really want, it bothers me when people do things that they shouldn't or do things that aren't going to help them with MailChimp. So like I want, like I need people to be better at MailChimp and yeah, I make money from doing that for some people who buy the course, but there's also the free lessons. There's also other stuff. There's not like I'm not going to stop writing my free newsletter.

And it's like, I just want people to be better because they know they can't. And I know I can be better. Yeah, you froze as well. I think we're back now. I have a local audio and you'll be able to fix it. No worries. We're both professionals. Yeah, exactly. Well, what's interesting too about the MailChimp stuff again is, you know, by proxy, you're actually helping get out very, like for my clients at least, like I work with like, you know, really truth or lack of better word, like juggernauts in the spiritual field who have massive audiences and communities and you're, you're creating by your course, you're helping me help them, which really like changes consciousness in a pretty cool way.

So I love it. Well, all right. Honestly, I was something else too that you said that really resonated with me, which is this interplay and how fear and action can coexist together in parallel as you put it and how that actually matters and why that's important. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, and that was probably one of like the most profound thing. And like, I'm not very, I'm not really like, oh, this profound thing happened to me like while I was taking a shit this morning, it's like the profound things, I don't know, but like, so this to me is something that I think is profound.

And it's a fact that like myself, like a lot of other creative people are have a lot of like fears and, and neuroses and doubt about the things that they do in the work that they do and what they put out in the world, and it stops so many people, so many people that I've talked to you like, oh, yeah, I'm trying to write a book or I want to write a book. And it's like, what did you get? No. So it's like, what I found was that I can have though, I can have all of the fears that exist. And I'm very fearful person, like I can have all of the fears. And I can still do things in spite of those fears.

And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to necessarily lessen the fears. I'm just trying to exist alongside those fears. So I can be scared of like writing a book or writing a newsletter for my audience and I can just do it anyways. And it doesn't like I don't die or I don't die a horribly embarrassing death, which I guess is probably like the worst thing that could happen, at least in my mind right now, maybe the most. So like, all of these things can happen and I can do them in spite of being scared. And a lot of times the fear subsides slightly in doing them, but it doesn't mean the fear ever goes away.

Like I was talking to a friend on her podcast two days ago, and she's like, well, how, what's it like now that you've gotten over those fears? Like, I don't know. I'm not actually sure because that hasn't happened yet. I'll also let you know when I become enlightened. Yeah, yeah. Also not happened yet. So yeah, it's like I can at the point of acting isn't to remove fear is to figure out how to be a little more comfortable with that fear. And I think because our lives are so like, if you're, if you have the ability to listen to a podcast, your life is a lot more comfortable than a lot of other people.

So if your life is that comfortable, it's hard to, it's hard to exist in discomfort. But I also think that it's important because I don't know how growth happens in comfort. Growth happens when you put yourself in uncomfortable situations. Otherwise it's stagnant. I mean, look at some of, you know, the juggernauts of the world thinkers, philosophers, activists. Like look at someone like Martin Luther King, right? Like this guy's life wasn't, it wasn't a comfortable situation. He put himself in, right? Like it's that, that to me touches on something that I think is critically important in life when, when negative quote, unquote things happen, which objectively can cause suffering, right?

Very. So, but those are those rare opportunities where we actually have a tremendous amount of choice about how we're going to engage with things. And also we can learn and grow from them and really change as people fundamentally, which is more important. And I will add like, for me, I'm not trying to get rid of my fears or for me, like anger, like anger is a big thing for me. I can get really angry and consumed and then look back and be like, Oh my God, what? I fucking, I'm an idiot, like why did I do that? But I do think, like I, I have recently really started a pretty dedicated mindfulness practice, a daily thing that I'm trying to do after, you know, helping getting this stuff out there for five years.

I'm finally like, maybe I should do it. Maybe there's something to this stuff. And what I've noticed is, and this doesn't just have to be for meditation, but there's this, this gap that starts to open up this space that starts to open up in this concept of space to me is, is just been really, really helpful. Because when you have the space to operate, whether this is your working schedule or in your own mind, you actually then have choices about how you're going to react. And I will say this, mindfulness, all this meditation stuff hasn't stopped me from reacting. But now there's a little part of my brain that's like, you're being an asshole.

This is not what you're supposed to be doing. And I imagine as time goes on, based on people I've seen who have had these practices engaged with this stuff, it actually does start to like reduce some of these negative qualities. And that maybe we're just coexisting in a better way, fundamentally. But I think there's been a diminishment, like, I bring this up because there is a point in my life where, you know, it seems like a distant memory, but I wasn't as content or happy as I was now. And it was a definitely qualitative difference in the thoughts that were running through my head. So can you talk a little bit about, because you mentioned this too, you were talking about being content and how you do that, and it's related to expectations, which I thought was awesome too.

Yeah. And that was, you have done your research and now I'm trying to remember the things I said, if they still hold true, but I think actually going back slightly, I think what you said about space is so key because I think that is really hard to operate in life, or especially in creativity, if we don't give ourselves the space needed to create. If we put things in space and talking mentally, if we say this has to work, or else my life is ruined, this is over, or something like that, it's hard to, I can't create when I put pressure, there's no space for me. All of these expectations and weight are squishing me into a corner, and then I'll just huddle up and cry.

But in order to make decisions and be able to think about what choice is right for ourselves, we need to give ourselves the space, we need to be like, okay, this isn't, and that relates to what you were asking in the actual question that you asked, is that this whole idea of contentment seems to be reserved for hippies, if you're going to sit on the beach with your poncho and guitar, then yeah, you're going to be content, but I have a life to live in. Yeah, I think things have to be happening. And a lot of times people are telling like, well, it's not having goals and being content with that is something that's very, it's hard for some people to mentally comprehend, but a lot of it has to do with presence and space.

Because I can't, if I start to think into the future, like if I'm making, like if I'm say writing a book or making a course, I can't do that if I'm thinking about how well that thing is going to do. Because now I'm thinking about how well that thing is going to do and I'm not making that thing. So I'm not in the present anymore because I filled up all of the mental capacity that I have with thinking about these future outcomes that haven't happened yet that may never happen, that I probably don't have control over them happening anyways, and I'm not making the stuff that I'm making. So I think a lot of times contentment just has to do with presence.

Like if you're stoked on what you're doing right now, that's fine. It doesn't mean you should loaf around on the beach. If you want to, I'd probably like to do that as well, but for a little bit of time, and then I get bored of it after 10 minutes, like I usually do. Me too. My wife can stay out in the sun for hours. I'm like, okay, listen to this song. I'm going to go back inside now and do something. But now what are we supposed to be doing? Crap. But yeah, then I'm not being present and then I'm not enjoying the situation that I'm in. This is, you know, this is Be Here Now, Rondas is one of my clients, a spiritual stalwart from the 70s and to this day.

And what's interesting about being present is this is something I noticed in being a musician when I grew up. I was playing saxophone and I would always notice like the best music that I was making objectively, not subjectively, even though it can be a subjective thing, but objectively was when I was in that zone or that flow, right? And as soon as you start to think about it, it fucks it up a little bit. And that's not present, you're in the past or you're in the future. So that's huge. You see, you're such a, I'm going to call it spiritual. You're incredibly spiritual guy. I don't think you even know it.

I think you do. Obviously you just have a different name for it, but it's so awesome, man. Like I got to say, I'm just, it's, it's really great. I'm glad I got tuned into what you're doing. So can you also, I want to, can you talk about where we are with like kind of the digital landscape now? Because to me, even what I, and this became again with their temp essentials class, really. It'll be a link to all this stuff. Actually, it's going to be done by the time this comes out with the next time around. But you know, what, the digital landscape has changed significantly, even in like the past two to three to five years, especially with a lot of this automation capabilities and these types of things.

Can you talk about some of the changes that you've seen and how that's impacted your life and other lives of creative professionals or just in general? I know that's a broad question. I know that. I get to just take it wherever I want. Yes, exactly. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. So what I, what I found with all of this, I think again, and I'll come back to the same thing. So I'm kind of a one trick pony is like with all of this stuff, like a namely automation because you brought that up is that you have to be intentional with it. Otherwise you get like, otherwise you're using it in the way that like big companies use it.

Whereas like your call is important to us. Please wait, please wait for another 57 minutes while we answer your call. We really appreciate your business. It's like that's automation, but that's automation done so fucking wrong. Whereas if you're, if you work for yourself or you do something creative or you do something intentional, then it's like you have the chance to put you into all of these technology processes in all of these practices and all of the stuff that exists. Like I have, if a payment fails for Chimp Essentials, then people get sent this email from me. It's all in lowercase because they write in lowercase.

There you go. So it's automated, but it's still written in my voice, in my language with my tone. When you sign up for my newsletter, you get an email about how I went and got like your name tattooed on my arm and it's like, it's just silly. But like that's an odd, that's an, that's an example of an automation sequence. So I try to put, because my business is me, like really, I'm not selling any products. I'm just selling myself over and over and over again, which is kind of fun and kind of scary and kind of weird, but so I put, I realized that people don't necessarily, people don't want to buy generic acts like business book X or mailing list course X.

They want to buy it. Like the topic is a little important, but far outweighed is what you bring to it, your subjective lens, your take, your point of view on that thing. So I find that it's scarier, but ultimately better to be myself and to have my own point of view with everything. Like there's probably eight monkey jokes on the sales page for my MailChimp course, because it's a course that has monkeys in it. It's ridiculous, but I would rather do that because I find that draws in the people that I want to interact and engage with anyways. And it pushes the people who are like, this course isn't real, he made a monkey joke.

Like I don't want those people giving me their money, like I don't want that person's money. So same with my mailing list, it's like if you don't get my weird silly sense of humor about like getting your name tattooed, then you're not, you're not going to like anything I have to say anyways. So click the big unsubscribe link right away and save us both some time and some energy. So it's just about me in putting myself into all of the things that I do and then hoping that the right people like it and that the other people are just like, all right, see you. Yeah, man. I mean, first off, I'm totally bummed that you actually didn't get your name tattooed on you.

That's there's no room. This is clearly what I want to talk about your tattoo too. But what you emphasize and this, this was always my main point when I decided I wanted to do any type of web consulting or anything on the web is making, to me, there's not, I know it's different, but there's not a tremendous amount of difference between the internet and our online lives and our offline stuff. It's still being human. It's still engaging with people and maybe we have some extra cool tools that we don't have in real life. So if someone says something and I'm not there, I can't respond to them. But automation, we can, but it's still the same thing, which always baffles me.

Like I look at these big companies, you know, who are paying probably God knows how much money to their marketing teams and PR teams and it's like, Hey, if you guys just actually tried to understand who your audience is and engage with them in a real way, they know that. And that will those, even if it's less people overall, they're going to care so much more that you, it won't matter. So I, I love that you bring that and I think that's what a, yeah, and look at how many people they need to reach to, to get just a few customers, like they need to spend money on like Superbowl ads to get in front of 25 billion, I don't even know.

And then some, a couple of those people, whereas if I write something that is so me and is so just for my audience, then that could convert at such a higher rate because it's like, this is just who I am. You're down with that. That's awesome. And you're in, you're a rat person or whatever my people call themselves. But like, if not, cool. That's, that's awesome too. But like, I don't need to reach as many people because it's just not this like, I don't know. It's not a numbers game. Yeah, it's not a numbers game either. Numbers are a vanity metric. Anyways, that's, I mean, I, I wrote a blog post a very long time ago. And I think at the time, literally no one read it. And then I finally reached, realized how to get some people to read it, who liked it. And it was called the numbers game. And it was like, why followers and likes tell you nothing? Because anyone who has Google analytics or any real analytic tool that actually shows you what people are doing, shows the real value. So if you put up your Facebook posts, how much referral traffic did that get? What did those people do when they got there? And to me, but I mean, knowing that I, I've spoken to people who are just fix it, potential clients, clients who are fixated on a number as a real measure of value, which to me, it just always misses the mark. It's, it's astounding to how that happens.

Yeah, I'd rather, I'd rather grow trust than audience numbers or engagement than audience. Like audience numbers, it doesn't matter. If you have a hundred thousand people on your list and only 1% opens it, I'd rather have a list of 10,000 that half the people are more open it. Like it's just, it's just such a weird vanity metrics. It is, it's a vanity metric too. I mean, it can, it can be a nice little ego boost too. And I get that and I get it, but I also realized that like the intent behind this, what you keep talking about is the most important thing. And I think that's the most important thing, not just for this work stuff and email stuff, but for life too. Like when you're doing something, the intent you carry behind it is actually what's going to achieve the results.

And people can tell your intentions, whether you want them to or not. Like everybody has like the best bullshit meter. Not everybody does man. Okay. A lot. Okay. A lot of people, me and my audience, I went 100%, like they can see my intentions. So I like, I have no choice at this point, but to be as radically honest, as humanly possible, because the type of people that I've drawn to the work that I do have the best. So those types of people have the best bullshit meters. Yeah, I guess other people. It's a reflection of you though, right? I mean, I've just working in this world where I think a lot of people have noble causes, you know, they're trying to get things that are having value, like things that are supposed to change people's lives for the better in some real way. I've seen even that domain, like people are, they're still the bullshatters. They're still the people who have the ego completely worked into it. There's the people who don't see that and get taken in. I mean, that, that exists to me rather than focusing on that. I like to do what you do, which is the antidote to that, which is, okay, I'm just not going to be full of shit. You know, it's not the hardest thing to do. Yeah, that's your unique value proposition in your industry is to just not be full of bullshit. That's right. That's really what it is. That's it. That's my fucking business. Man, I love it. I want to touch on something else. So I was a vegan for two and a half years, and then I fell off the wagon, so to speak. And I eat vegan often. I don't issue it completely. I'd love to hear your vegan. Yes. Yeah. Well, how did you, were you always a vegan? Did you grow up vegan? I'm imagining not, but I accidentally went vegan. Really? How? Yeah. Well, so I was vegetarian. And that's this pretty, yes, it's close. But then I realized like I hadn't and we at the time, a wife and I were living like way like we live in the middle of nowhere. Now we were living like two hours past the middle of nowhere. So like we didn't have access to any of the fancy like vegetarian options or like pre packaged stuff. We just had to make everything from whole ingredients.

And then I realized like one, okay, I guess I haven't eaten any, any dairy or eggs for a very long time and two that I feel a lot better and I'm not getting sick a lot. And I do not to get Eastern again, but like elimination diets and Ayurvedic and like mono diets are so helpful, even if you don't approach that from like a spiritual, like if you approach that from a science and medicine and health, if you eliminate everything from your diet, but one thing and then slowly reintroduce things, your life is going to change with what you, what how your body tells you, it's reacting to the food that you're eating. Yeah. Like is mind blowing. That's not even Eastern man. That's Hippocrates said that. Yeah. The Hippocratic goes with which every doctor seems to take and forget who actually said it forgets you are what you eat basically. And the hippopotamus. Yeah, hippopotamus. No, but that's that I noticed the same thing when I went vegan and I noticed the same thing when I stopped being vegan that not only did I feel a lot better when I wasn't eating shit that we I was completely detached from and I always do this. And this is my classic vegan question. I think if people had to kill the animals, they eat and get the dairy and all that stuff. People wouldn't be doing it as much because we're very detached from it. So yeah, and I actually don't have a problem with people who are like hunting for sustenance like that's mean either. I think that's if you're a trophy hunter, you're a jacket. You're an asshole. No, yeah, but difference. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I actually knew I met a guy once on Google Plus who that's how he ate. He lived off the land. He shot. I think the Native Americans did that. No one's going around saying Native Americans are assholes because they meet it's because they respected the cycle of life and they understood the connection and the ritual and the meaning behind doing that right now. If we go get a hamburger somewhere, we're not respecting that. We don't it doesn't look like the animal. It's just like in plastic and and styrofoam. Yeah. So is there is there an ethical component to it as well or is it just a health thing? I guess it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of things like one, I feel better and I'm healthier when I eat vegan and don't eat dairy. Also gluten like I don't eat gluten either just because I feel better. Although once or twice a year, bread is so fucking tasty. I'm going to I know I'm going to feel like shit the next day, but a couple times a year is like I don't even care. So but yeah, for the vegan thing, like it's a little bit like initially it was a lot of like, okay, with the environmental impact of eating meat far surpasses like driving or flying or anything else. So if you call yourself an environmentalist, you should probably consider that. But then as well, like I love animals like I work with shelters. I have two rescued animals sitting in a cage behind me. And so I love animals like I don't want to and people can't remember who it was somebody wrote a book about how just is basically psychology that we differentiate, like, okay, dogs are our best friends, cows or something we eat and like rats are vermin. It's like, it's just their marketing sucks.

Like for some animals, they just have shitty marketing. Dennis and we had a bit about that, I think I remember him yelling that the poor fucking cow didn't go into the stick. This is bad, bad marketing. So yeah, I just I don't I think that life is the same like life is equal. So I don't want to think of one animal is like my best friend and one animal is like, I'm eat you now. Yeah, you gotta think so it's just like I would just rather not. And I also think it's just, I don't know, it's it's like consuming by to me it's and personal obviously is it's like consuming violence. Because like you're eating something that was scare shitless and then probably released a whole bunch of adrenaline and then died and it's like, I don't I can't like I can't I can't work that out logically in my mind.

So I'm just not going to do it. So it's funny that you mentioned you're talking chemically what's physiologically taking place. There's a thought that karmically, whatever is done energetically goes in. So if an animal is in fear and is lived in terror, it's entire life that karmically is infused with that and you're consuming that as well. And I also apply this to a marijuana. So I think if you get weed from a shitty dealer who has bad intentions and is trying to rip you off, no matter how great that weed is, it's going to be affected by that. I think it's just a consciousness thing. That's that's that's very interesting to me, man. Yeah. And I just like it's just I don't know, I just like being vegan. It's easy like to me, it's funny people who have never tried to be vegan assume that's really, really hard. But then people who haven't vegan, like unless I'm traveling in the Midwest and I haven't done a bit of planning, it's it's easy. Like it's really not that it's not that difficult. Like I buy whole foods at the grocery store. I know they don't have meat in them because they're one ingredient apple. Exactly. The apple now says gluten free on it, which I don't even understand. I know. I know everything that I eat says gluten free, but it's very clear. It does. It's like non gluten gluten doesn't have any gluten. I get it. It's funny, man. All right, we're we're getting towards the end here. I'm having a ton of fun though. I'd love to do you have any like favorite authors or music or anything that you're into that you like want to hold up and say like, hey, this is this is a really great thing either that you're currently enjoying or you have enjoyed like I would love to love to. Yeah, I think Oliver Berkman's the antidote. We were talking about happiness and positivity a lot. That's probably the best book on the subject. And that's one of my favorite books ever as far as music constant. What was I let me just look at what I was listening to before I hop on this call. I think I was listening to post data, which is a side project of the band Winter Sleep, who are an Eastern Canadian band. I don't just listen to Canadian music before that. It's like electronic stuff which is just including Dorfmeister sessions one, which is one of the best. Is there better from start to finish like that? I know you can't listen to one song. You have to have about 47 minutes to listen to everything from start to finish because it flows from start to finish. Yeah, that's awesome. Anything else? I think that's about it. I haven't really read a ton of books lately because I've been so I kind of go through like ebbs and flows of consumption and creation. And right now I've been making so much stuff that I haven't really had time to consume much. But this summer it's the pendulum will swing once again. And I have I think eight books on my Kindle that I need to read. I totally get that too. I go through these periods of just like getting a lot of inspiration from reading, consuming, watching, listening. And then it's like, okay, I'm going to synthesize these and actually make what they are. Okay, so every episode I leave it with a question. What do you have any practice? I mean, this is kind of you in an essence. But do you have any practical tips that have helped you in life? I know we've covered a lot of those things in general, but anything specifically that you would hold up and say, this is something that people can do that has helped me. I mean, not for everyone, but this is something that has really helped me. Yeah, and I think and I somebody who emailed me this yesterday was probably the my favorite thing that anybody has ever said about me. And it's that I like the way I feel when I read your writing. And I think that that is so important paying attention to how you feel when you're doing things. Because a lot of times we think, I have to be doing this thing because I'd like some expert on the internet told me to do this and I watched the webinar on it. So but it's like pay attention to how you feel. And a lot of times like, I didn't even because I'm I hope that I'm fairly open minded. I don't know how I'm going to feel about something or what I think about something until I've tried it or implemented it or a lot of my writing is because I don't know what I think about a subject. So I'm just going to write about it till I know. So I think paying attention to how we feel about things is really important. Paying attention to, I guess, us in it, like a lot of times people look for, especially in spirituality, people look for gurus. Yes. And I think our basket and that's fine. Absolutely no problem with that. But that all needs to be filtered through the lens of you as a guru, because you are, because you know yourself better than anybody else, I would hope. And if not, get to know yourself. Scary and wonderful thing. Amazing. I mean, a spiritual mystic, a huge luminary Ramana Maharshi had a concept called God equals guru equals self. Yes. Same thing. And I think that's so for especially for this podcast, I have a guru because it's just it happened. I looked back over a long period of time, like, Oh, clearly, duh, I didn't want one. I thought it was weird. I'm like, who the fuck? But yeah, I conceded. But I think it's very important. That's so, so important to recognize that it's not external. It's not outside of you. If at best it's a reflection of your true nature, maybe it's a little dusty and the mirror is not so polished and clean. But that's what it is, man. That, listen, this has been so awesome. This has been cool. I'm having this is wonderful. So thank you again for coming on. I look forward to seeing everything you put out there. And if there's anything I can do to help you in any way, get anything out, please let me know. And I mean, that seriously, I'm happy to help.

Awesome. Well, thank you. Thanks, Paul. Yeah, no problem. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Man, I told you that was a good episode, wasn't it? Oh, here's the other thing. So you guys were listening at this point. You just heard the music that was there. One of my favorite things that has come out of this podcast is all the music you hear in every episode I make. I've made or I make or I work on and I put it in. And I just do it for myself. It's a nice way to get some unfinished songs out there, some stuff I'm testing out. And I just put it out because it's another creative outlet for me. But the feedback I've been getting from a lot of people has been tremendous and really makes me feel good. And it's actually a motivator for me to finish and continue to make music, which I have never stopped, but I've gone through a lulls. So yeah, I thank you to everyone who has sent some kind words or encouragement or saying, "What's that music? I love it." That makes me feel as good as anything else in life. I really, really, really appreciate that. So keep those comments coming. Loose my ego up. Make me feel good. Yeah. So as always, rate and review on whatever podcast channel, place you want to do that from iTunes, Stitcher, wherever. Those also mean a lot to me. Again, if you want this week's book giveaway, if you want to be entered in that, Oliver Berkman's The Antidote. Happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking.

God, I love that title. If you want to be entered in those contests, you go to syncpodcast.com. That's S-Y-N-C, podcast.com. Join the synchronicity community. Boom, you're on it. Many happy people have received their books, and it's all you got to do. So, alrighty, I'll see you next week.