Ep. 86 - Dancing with Life with Monika Nataraj

Hi, I'm Kelly McLean, host of the Dow of Comedy Podcast on MinePod Network. Following the sudden death of my brother, I found myself in need of a major existential search of the meaning of life and death and everything in between. I turned to some unlikely authorities to help. Comedians. I've had the honor of interviewing some of the best comedians in the world, like Pete Holmes, star of Judd Apatow and HBO's Crashing, Daily Show creator Madeline Smithberg, Bert Croatia, The Machine, and podcasting guru Duncan Trussell. There is a living force in the universe that is completely in love with you.

It pines for you, and the more that you turn in its direction, the more synchronicities will happen in your life. My nana smoked a cock and half a salam a day and dropped it on her kitchen floor at the age of 80 on her way to Bingo. That's kind of what I'm going for. I believe that the world is kind of a mirror. I believe in time travel. I believe in magic. I'm a miracle. I'm a goddamn miracle. I'm a Christmas miracle. The podcast is available on minepodnetwork.com and taopodcast, the Dow of Comedy. Because every comedian is a secret sage. As things come to you, rather than like pushing it away or grasping it, it's like dance with it.

There's something there like really potent. This is synchronicity, this is synchronicity, this is synchronicity! Welcome to episode 86 of Synchronicity. My guest this week is Monica Nataraj. And Monica is, let's describe her as shock delicious, right? That's really what she's embodying in a lot of different ways, had a pleasure speaking with her. Basically let me also, two previous podcast guests, Zach Mack and my sister Tess, have let me use their apartment for a few of these episodes in the East Village of New York. Graciously let me use their apartment to record a bunch of these recent synchronicities.

I am very thankful and appreciated to them for doing that and it's also just a wonderfully nice environment. It's a beautiful space to do it and this is one of those interviews. Monica and I talk about a whole bunch of awesome stuff, really getting into Tantra, but not just the superficial understanding. I forget and she reminded me that a lot of people when they hear the word Tantra, they think of Tantric sex, right, and she certainly reminds us that that's really a very small part of Tantra. What it really is is using the world to further your understanding and experience of what it is to be a human and what we're striving for, whether we deem that enlightenment or being a better person, whatever it is, that's basically what Tantra is.

As opposed to something where maybe you would not detach, but not use the world as kind of your stage and there are people who do this and we talk about going to the Himalayas. If you want to go meditate there in a cave, you have that as an option, but we point out that if you're born in the western world, maybe there's a reason for that. She is wonderfully wise, truthfully, and not only the Tantric path of Buddhism, but the Vedic stuff she's got on lock, but one of the things this conversation really revolves around is this concept of dance and Monica gives the five paths to enlightenment as understood in the yogic way of understanding.

I've always been saying yogic, by the way, she said yogic, given her resume and who she studied with and been around and seen, I'm going to start saying yogic now, she can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm going with. There are five essential paths to reaching enlightenment and I didn't know, and I'll let them know a little teaser here. I won't tell you what they are, but one of them is dance and the metaphor of dance and the physical act of dancing, I think are both beautiful concepts, I am a big fan of dancing. I love to dance, I'm also not what you would call a classically good dancer, I don't look good doing it.

I mean, I can hear it in my head, I know when people are awesome dancers, I can get to beat, don't get me wrong, but I don't have moves, I don't have moves on top of moves, like some people, you're not going to see me on Soul Train, that's all I'm saying. But I love to dance, I like going to clubs and dancing, I like dancing at home, my new favorite thing is to dance with my son, my one-year-old son Eli, dance around, he seems to very much enjoy that. It's a natural expression of what you're doing, right, and it doesn't just have to be a joyous thing, it can be a constant meditative, that's not a word, meditative thing.

Monica brings up the example of Sufis and some of the whirling and body movements they do to get into a trans-like meditative state. So dance is fucking awesome, for lack of a better term. Monica delves into that, she also talks about, you know, she's been to more places than anyone, I know, I mean, insane, I think it says in her resume and she confirmed this that like by the time she was 30, she had been to almost every single continent, so she decided to go to Antarctica, so she could check them all off. So she's that type of awesome person. Also fun synchronicity, I found out that we grew up in the same place in Silver Spring Maryland, so that's pretty cool too.

I don't have anything else, I'm going to get right to the episode, creative evolution is launching. I think in the previous episode I said June 8th, we'll see if that matches up with reality. I turned it into an email course only, and the full version course that the beta people took. If you don't know what I'm talking about, creative evolution is a course I designed and developed, the purpose of the course is to help you create, maintain and sustain a creative practice. So if you, you know, want to write a book, if you want to make music every day, if you want to, you know, paint, whatever it is that's your creative practice, this course is designed to kind of evoke that using your own life and your own simple tools that you can do.

So if you're interested in that, stay tuned, I will have details when it's fully watching. You can always email me, Noah@sinkpodcast.com if you want to find out more, but in the next week or two I will have firm details about how you can sign up for the next class, and if you're just interested in the email course you can do that too. That's officially it. I could mention Patreon where you can support this show as a patron and get a bunch of cool rewards if you want to do that. I might even, I could have also mentioned that you could do that at patreon.com/synchronicity, but you don't have to. I'm not going to, this is what I mean.

How about I stop? Without further ado, here is Marka Torelli. Thank you for coming on and doing this. It's so great to be in New York and being here with you. I just returned from the Ram Das Krishan Das retreat in a way where we're connected, so nice synchronicity. Lovely synchronicity. Speaking of traveling, maybe this would be a good place to start because you are probably the most accomplished traveler I know, but you've really been a lot of places. As someone who is not, I'm always fascinated by people who have the wanderlust to go around, but also how do you do it? Physically, one trip to Maui from New York wipes me out for a month or two, so how did you find yourself in the position of going around the world so much and how do you hold up?

It's intense. I have always had that wanderlust in me. I think part of it was because I was born in India, my family came to the US when I was nine months old, so I was already kind of a traveler, born into it. I just had a passion to understand more the world and it began more the external world and eventually it slipped into the internal adventure and I really thought at that point when I got tuned in a little bit more that it's not this grasping for the outer understanding that the travel would slow down, but call it karma, call it just the way I've been structured. I think I'm traveling more than ever and when I was 30, I had already been to six of the seven continents and I was like, "You know, I'm 30.

I may as well go to Antarctica and do all seven continents," so interestingly enough that transformed my life. I was working in a big corporation, so I was actually a corporate director and had thought my life was going to be in New York and that was kind of a standard formula for living and in Antarctica, I was so blown away by the nature and just the awesomeness of it all and I thought, "Wow, I think I have a good life, but if that's all it is, it can't be enough. It's not enough." The wanderlust just got amplified and I made an inner commitment that I was going to leave my job. I said, "You know what?

I met someone who when I was traveling who said, "Most people spend 80% of their lives kind of doing daily things that they're not really passionate about and 20% really following their hearts." He said he was an expedition leader on this tour to Antarctica, he said, "I've flipped that. 80% of my life I'm in the Antarctic or the Arctic and 20% I'm in Holland selling my photos and doing my paperwork and banking." I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's my life. 80% of the time I'm slipping away is a corporate person, a great job, an amazing job." And 20% of the time I'm out on the road traveling and being the adventurer that I feel I really am and so I just made the inner commitment, "I'm going to leave my life in New York.

I'm going to give myself two years and I'm just going to go out into the world and see what I'm really meant to be. How old are you? I was 30 at the time. So I quit my job at 32 and have been traveling full on, full time ever since." Well, you travel but you also have merged it with your career work, what you've created for yourself which I would love to get. So I, for people listening, we don't know each other that well personally on Facebook we're friends but I'm honestly like, I curate my Facebook feed pretty actively and you're someone who's in it and I see all of these amazing images and you're writing about these workshops you're doing for the Shakti stuff and this tantric stuff, it's incredible.

And I think right now where a couple of days away from Mother's Day, there is this theme that I have been, I got a download after a psychedelic experience about 15, 16 years ago that there was a re-emergence of the divine feminine happening in the world and that this would manifest and had been manifesting for a few decades but really were in the throes of this transitional period and this is a natural rebalancing I think from when we kind of got everything lapped off with the Abrahamic religions 2500, 3000 years ago. So I love when I see people who are a tapped into this going on but also doing things to evoke it not only within themselves but other people.

So I'd love to hear kind of how, you know, you had this corporate job, you left it, you got the calling, you're like, "Okay, I'm going to go around, I'm going to travel, I'm going to flip the script, 80/20 what I really want to be doing," how did that then manifest into what you're doing now because this is some really cool stuff. That's a great question and I sometimes look back and go, "How did this happen?" Because it wasn't a plan and so now I lead teacher trainings for people to take this kind of work out into the world but I never went to a teacher training for my life. It was just something that was very organic and I think when I made that commitment to myself that I listened to that call of my soul, it was a surprise call and I said, "Okay, I hear you and there's something there."

And then I just kept listening to that voice and so I had the plan to be in Asia for a year and Africa for a year and then go back. The crazy part of this is that when I went to leave my corporate job, they thought it was insane because I was on a fast track for a really great company and a great position and they couldn't believe someone would walk away from a job like that. So they actually said to me, "Look, we'll give you a six-month leave of absence like a maternity leave. Go find yourself and come back." And I was like, "You know what? Thank you so much but I've made this inter commitment and I'm going to be gone for at least two years."

So they had a big meeting and they said, "We're going to hold your job for you for two years. You'll still get medical benefits and come back any time, we'll pick up where you left out." And I was actually innerly disappointed because I wanted to know what it was like to be out in the world without a safety net, like really here I am, like what am I supposed to be doing? But I couldn't refuse that. The paperwork went through and so I just thought, "Okay, I'm going to be traveling for two years." And in my mind, I was coming back to the States. So the first year, it was in Asia and I found myself doing a lot of high adventure things, so a lot of mountain climbing and a lot of cultural things, a lot of scuba diving.

And I found myself on a small island in Thailand and I was taking a yoga class, which I was not really into yoga at all at the time. And it was taught by a Danish guy in Thailand teaching Indian country yoga and he said something really interesting. Because most people are looking outside of themselves for that thing, but really we need to stop and look inside and 10,000 light bulbs went on my hand. I was like, "That's me!" I spent this last year like crazy doing everything high adventure and I've never really stopped and okay, this is what I probably need to do. And one thing led to another and I went back to India with the intention simply to do an Ayurvedic cleanse, Panchakarma, before I went to Africa.

But I ended up in Rishikish, which is called the Yoga capital of the world. And I ended up, again, lots of tendril and synchronous today, I ended up in a tantric yoga program with a Romanian Swami of all things. And I just knew when I sat in that first day, I was like, "This is kind of it." And I couldn't leave. I was like, "Okay, I'll just stay for a week, I'll stay for two weeks." I stayed for eight months. And at that point, my time to go back to New York and come back to work was up and I called my boss from a small pay phone in India and I was like, "Oh my gosh, my life has turned around again, 180 degrees."

And I think this is one I'm supposed to be doing. I've discovered yoga and meditation and I feel this is my calling. I think I'm supposed to pursue this. And she was like, "What do you mean?" Yeah, she must have been thrilled about that. We're waiting for you. And the economy has changed now. And I'm not even going to be talking about herself in my same position. You don't come back now. I don't know what else we can do for you. I'm like, "That's okay. Thank you so much for holding open those possibilities." And she's like, "Come on, how much longer do you really need to find yourself?" And here I am not wanting to burn this bridge, which was an incredible bridge.

And I said, "I don't know, six months." And a week later, I got a note back from my company saying, "We're holding your job for another six months. Come back." And I was like, "I threw out my arms and I was like, 'I have karma. I have something to face.'" So anyway, I ended up staying in India and pursuing yoga and meditation. I'm still with the very same yoga school and the same Swami. And things just kind of blossom from there. While I was working in New York, I was also a professional belly dancer. So I was corporate executive by day. My club belly dancer by night. And what was so interesting as we were going through this really intensive and beautiful kind of yoga university, Tantric University.

I realized everything I was learning about energy and chakras and consecration and ritual through the yoga was actually something that was there in the belly dance, but it was never taught that way. And I started to make those connections between this internalized form of dance that was very Tantric because it was really about dancing from the inside out. And so much of the yogic philosophy, the Tantric philosophy, really. So as I was learning things through the yoga course, I started to explore them through movement. And I was like, "You know what? This is the same as a yoga posture if you focus the mind in this way."

And so I kind of developed my own parallel practice. And of course, it was interesting and people caught onto it. And so I was almost immediately asked to teach and share. And so that's kind of how it happened. I just was luckily exposed to really incredible teachings and I found a way to find an embodied path to them. So here I am now. I mean, I love it because a lot of people have this happen to them. I'm going through something right now where, you know, you don't have the intention or idea to do something specifically, but then things tend to manifest around you in your life. So for me right now, I'm in this crazy astrological, something is happening.

People are coming to me being like, "You should talk to this astrologer." I just found out I've been doing this creativity course, a beta version of something I'm launching. And we found out last night, by coincidence, I had no idea that it was literally synced to the lunar cycle and all of these things are coming out. So I know exactly what we were talking about when you kind of, whether you're even consciously aware of it or not, it's still kind of guiding you and bringing you and letting things manifest. And you talk about this idea of karma, especially with your job, which I think is hilarious.

That's like one of the funniest things. It's like one of those Maharaji stories where you're trying to leave and you need a passport and there's no way to get it and then, magically, you get it, that's pretty incredible. So has that been kind of your experience throughout your life or was that something that kind of flipped on when you made this decision to go kind of pursue what was going on internally, which you thought was externally? I would have to say, looking back, I could say I had a really square upbringing and also some really incredible things and traumatic things happening in my childhood and also a background with parents who were very open-minded when I was growing up, my father's Hindu, my mother's Christian, both Indian, but we used to go to Jewish synagogue and Mormon temple and the Sikh temple and to the Catholic day school and it just went on and on.

So I was always exposed to really open-minded view. And in fact, we used to have Puja's, we used to have Bajans in our house every Thursday night. My father was a devotee of Sai Baba. And so there was part of me that was exposed to a lot of that, but there was also a rejection somewhere in me too. So I would have to say, to a certain point, until I made that decision just to leave my life, my mind was in a box for sure. And except for the belly dancing, which I think was that divine feminine coming through in its own way, through the back door, through the stage door, it was not something that I could say, like, now I look at a lot of women and men also come through the programs, the tuntar programs and the yoga programs, and they're so tuned in at a really young age.

And I'm like, "Whoa!" Like, you really see this shift in consciousness, you're like, "Oh my goodness, like, things are changing. Things not are changing. They have changed." And things are so accelerated. People are connecting the dots. People are born with a certain openness that my generation didn't have. And it's incredible to see. It's fantastic. It is really incredible to see and fantastic. I mean, just a limited period of time, 15, 20 years ago, the types of conversations that I have on a regular basis, not just for this podcast, but daily, you know, you said some of this stuff to the wrong person, then you would be potentially labeled an insane person.

So it really is incredible. And I know exactly what they were saying, like, some of these people, I'm 33, but some of these kids, man, 25 and younger, how tapped in they are to like the reality, you know, the real reality of what's going on is truly astounding. And I think it points to that we're in this very interesting, the old Chinese curse thing, but we're in this very interesting transitional moment where a lot of stuff is happening. We're seeing old paradigms kind of being destroyed. We're seeing new ones begin to be planted and emerging, but they're not here yet. And the old ones aren't gone yet.

So it's very interesting to see how all this stuff is kind of coming together at this point in time. So I want to delve into a couple of the things there. So the Shakti dance stuff, how dancing to me is very interesting. I have a very interesting relationship with dance. I'm not a good dancer in a traditional, that looks good, you look good, dancing sense, but I love to dance. I've been going to electronic music clubs since I was 16, like, you know, basically pretending. I was not pretending. I wrote for a Dutch magazine so I could get into these venues. You know, a lot of people at these things are on drugs and, you know, having a great time.

I was stonk old sober. I couldn't drink, couldn't smoke, couldn't do anything because I was super underage. But I remember dancing for like eight to ten hours at a time and just feeling a mate like it was like a miss, and to me music and dance have always been clear paths to accessing divine energy. Absolutely. So I'd love to hear kind of how that, because you described it as kind of the back door, right? You didn't know, but it was still there, which I love those things when they're actually been going on this whole time and then afterwards you connect it. So how did, how has dance kind of influenced your life throughout, you know, before and after kind of this discovery?

Sure, I guess as most kids we all pick a hobby and dance was always mine. So from five years old I was doing ballet and we became really close friends and still are with my first dance teacher. And so dance was, that was my portal as a kid, like that's what I did. And even in college I did a little modern dance and then I stopped dancing and again it was on an adventure in Egypt and I was with my sister. We were in the Khanna Khalili, which is a really funky market in Cairo and we met two Egyptian guys and they took us out that night to a really seedy nightclub. And there were live musicians and there were belly dancers and the belly dancers looked like they wanted to be anywhere but where they were.

And so when it was their turn to dance rather than dancing, they just got the audience to get up and dance with them. And so my sister and I looked at each other and were like, "We can do that." So we got up on this stage and my sister actually knew some Middle Eastern moves. For me, I was like punk rock dancing. I had no idea what I was doing and I remember leaving the nightclub that night and I turned to my sister and I said, "You know what, I love Egypt and I want to come back. When I come back, I want to learn their dance. I want to know their dance." So when I came back to New York, I was still working for the big corporation.

I told a friend of mine that and he laughed and one day in Intercompany Mail I got a clipping from a newspaper and it said, "Jolyn, housewife by day, belly dancer by night. Ellen 50 years old is a belly dance star in New Jersey and New York," et cetera. And so my friend wrote on, he's like, "How can you be corporate executive by a day belly dancer by night?" I was like, "I can do it. I can do it." So I found Jolyn. I started to take classes before I knew I was performing and then I started to study with her teacher here in the city, Serena. And it became a crazy parallel life but I think without that, I think it was a rounded way of existing because you know how it can be in the city.

It can be really a business-minded type A person but to have that dance and to be able to be with women after work with the music, which is such a big part of it. And then to actually have the opportunity to dance with live music was incredible because it really was about being the body poetry to the music. It was really about expressing that part of it. And I fell in love with the whole ambiance and just the way I felt through it. And I felt a lot of things opening up within me and I didn't know it at the time but it was like my chakras were awakening. And so actually, belly dance done on a conscious level, you're actually working on all the different levels.

And while I wasn't taught that way, it was happening regardless. And when I started to learn more about yogic philosophy and the transformational practices of the East, what became really interesting is that in vetic philosophy, there are five, in ancient vetic philosophy, they were identified five different paths to enlightenment, to self-knowing, to awareness. And the first would be something that we would say, okay, that makes sense is yunana yoga, which is a yoga of humamites, inquiry. The second would be kind of a general broad, all the yogas that we know. So yantra, mantra, asana, the whole bit of yoga.

The third, which is a little bit surprising, but not maybe for you, would be grammar, but not the grammar that we learned in elementary school or high school, it's really the study of Sanskrit and the mastery of Sanskrit, which another name of Sanskrit is Deva Nagari, the language of the gods. And so it's really the mastery of mantra. And so that was a path to enlightenment, which makes sense. And the fourth is music. And so I was like, aha, and again though, when they were describing music as a path to full awareness, it wasn't so much, again, music as entertainment. And so in earlier times in India, to be deemed a musician, you would be studying 10, 20, 30 years, and you would be examined, you would be inexammed, you would be tested.

They would bring you to the court of the king of the area, and they would call the other known musicians in the area, plus the royal family, and you would have to play the rug of fire. And instead of just playing it musically correct, they would actually put in front of you an unlit flame or lamp. And your raga of fire would have to be so much the vibration of fire that you would set the lamp on fire. And so that was the magic and the full power, the full potential of music. And the fifth path was dance. So again, not just like dance is entertainment, codified dance, Indian temple dance, exactly.

And so, but we have to remember that with dance, actually all of the other things I see are definitely incorporated. Yes. There's a lot of inquiry. Dance, especially in a traditional Indian temple form, is yoga. You use mantra, you're invoking the deities. There's all the mudras and the bandas are in the dance, all of the outer expression leading to the inner visions, plus it's the music, which to me is so much, I mean vibration. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. And so, for me, that was very inspiring. It was like, aha! So this dance isn't just something to feel good or entertainment or a hobby. In fact, it's a full, complete spiritual path.

And the Tundra path, for me, has been so inspiring because it's not about negating anything in your life. It's about shoving anything, embracing everything, finding the sacred, finding the transformation in every single moment. It's about waking up and being alive in every moment, and it's not denial of the body. And so, for me, specifically, the embodied Tundra practices have always been something that I've gravitated to more than anything else. That's kind of my take on it. And so, dance has been really an incredible... because it's been my way, it's been my expression. It's kind of one of those unending wells of potential.

I love that. And I think that's the sign when you're really on the right path, not to be too platitude about it, but that you do have this infinite wellspring of like, oh my God, there's another way the macrocosmic, the microcosmic, they're all together. So I love this, I am not a tantric expert by any means, but I do understand the principle that a lot of it is going into the world. It is not kind of this ascetic, what's going to the Himalayas and meditate isolated, which I think many of us, regardless of where we are in the spiritual path, we get an inkling of that idea at some point. The world is suffering, there's so much friction and drama, I need to get away from it.

If only I could meditate and be by myself, then everything would be great. But to me, never made a tremendous amount of sense as someone who is kind of brought up in the western world, because I think, and again, this has a lot to do with our metaphysical conceptions of why we incarnate on earth, whether it's a choice, whether we're making that choice. But to me, it always seems to link a lot more sense that we go into the world to understand the sacred. The sacred is in the mundane, there's not these two separate, there are for our sense like the unseen world and the day-to-day reality we live in, but ultimately, they're the same thing.

So whatever path we can use to get there, ultimately, we'll serve as the best if it's incorporating both of those things. Could you tell me a little bit about Tantra? And I know there's also, there's the Vedic, then there's the Buddhist, there's different levels and layers to this, and I'd love to find out more about it. Sure. Tantra as a concept is a word, it's a Sanskrit word, and it means web, net, or warp. And it's the recognition that everything is interconnected, that the universe is a holographic system, that us talking here in the way where we're moving the winds here in lower Manhattan affects the way that the waves move in Japan, for this planet spinning.

And Tantra is also kind of the emerging of opposites to reach that transcendence, that transcendence, and it's a deep, deep embrace of reality being both Shiva and Shati. So Shiva being the divine consciousness, great spirit, the transcendent and Shati being the manifested world, being all the energies that we are experiencing right now. So you probably know and speak about this, that many people say, "Well, this world is Maya, it's the great illusion." Right. It's sara, Maya, right. It's sara, right. And, you know, we get lost. We get lost on the stage. We forget we're actors. You know, we think we are Hamlet when we're just playing that role.

And the Tantraics have that kind of awakened view as well. They realize, yes, this is not the ultimate. This is just another form of illusory manifestation, but we can work with this. You can work with anything, anything that's in front of us, like, where did it come from? And why is it here? Like, there's a reason, and there's a teaching in all of it. So the Tantraics give us practices that we can be awake in everyday life, in every moment. And it's not about just going to the monastery or cutting ourselves off, like, we have awakening practice in the marketplace, in dance, in love-making, you know, in eating.

So the Tantric arts, most people when they hear about Tantra immediately, especially in the West, and even in India, they think sex. Sex, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially if you look at the classical text of Tantra called the Agamas, only about 10% actually address specifically, you can say, the sexual energy, not so much sex. So a lot of people think the Kama Sutra, the Kama Sutra is not actually a Tantric text. Ironically, that was written by a monk for householders. So it was a, it was a celibate monk who was guru told him, look, go out and find out what people are doing, and like, help them to make this work for them.

So while he wasn't doing the act himself, he wrote about it. But in the Tantric lore, you'd say about 10% somehow addresses the sexual energy. The rest is sacred dance, sacred architecture, mantra, yantra, all kinds of things really. And so that's been for me being, having grown up in the West to find a spiritual path. You know, I touch the earth that there was such a thing as Tantric because I didn't have to give up anything in my life. I just learned how to relate to it differently, incorporate it a little bit differently. Be awake in the world, which is great. That's what I would, that's been my path and that's what I've been meant to do.

And it's so beautiful to see other people, like we're all rising together in this way. That to me is a very, kind of what the, what has emerged from this podcast and this show is kind of this nexus point between the very deep mystical experiences we have within our regular lives and not moving too far into either one of those to forget that we're, you know, we have a zip code, we have a name, but we also are divine beings and have access to incredible amounts of things that we don't even conceptually realize. That's why I love when we're talking about this stuff that Tantrin, it's always been a term that's resonated with me specifically for the reason that you go into the world, right?

You don't, you're not pushing it away. I love that. So what else you also have like, I mean, you're, you're very humble about it, but you have studied with some amazing teachers from so many different lineages from Shambhala to your, your Swami Vivekananda, is that name pulled from the Ramakrishna order? Yes, exactly. Cool. Okay. And that was a name that he was given when he took a Swami ship in India many years ago. Amazing. Yeah. One of my, if not my favorite mystic is Ramakrishna, it's just, I could read it. And he is a Tantric. Yeah. So there's left-handed Tantric and right-handed Tantric. Right.

Can you explain the difference? Sure. So, um, Tantrics are all working with energy and they're working for, with energy for transformation. Right. So a great example of a Tantric that we might not consider as a Tantric when we're thinking about more of a generalized, uh, view of Tantric is his holiness of Dalai Lama. Sure. He's a Tantric Buddhist and, um, but he has a right-handed Tantric meaning he will work with all the energies, all the chakras he'll even invoke and work with the sexual energy, but not physically. Right. So oftentimes I've, I've gotten Tantric initiations from the Dalai Lama where he says, okay, now visualize me, you know, a couple with, uh, with a Dakini at the top of your head.

I'm like, what? What? What are you doing? What? No. But he, so he's working with the mask and the front end, the Kundalini, the rising through the crown through visualization. Right. So he's working with all of these things and that's right-handed. That's right-handed. So it's not physically. Right. The left-handed are working with it even through the body. Right. So maybe starting with genital contact or, um, arousing the energy specifically in the second chakra and then writing it physically. Right. Right. Right. So, um, I don't even know what the question was, but I hope the answer is interesting.

No, that's an incredibly interesting answer. Ah, so we have Tantric masters all over. Yes. And so I have had Tantric teachings and masters from many different traditions, some from a classical Indian perspective, and then also through my Romanian Swami, um, but I also have an Indian meditation Tantric master, um, some through the Tibetan, uh, lineages, holiness, the Dalai Lama's, holiness, karmapa are both teachers I've studied with. Of course, uh, you know, from a distance, but still received different, um, transmissions and initiations with them and the Shambhala lineage. Um, but I also study, uh, the Sufi path.

Yes. The Sufi whirling. I'm just really inspired by any mystical movement form. So whirling, spinning in inspired by roomy and, um, really working again, Tantric Lee or working with energy, you become like a centripetal and a centrifugal force all at once. Yes. You're, you're a still point and you're moving, you're, you're contracting and expanding, all at the same time. That's good metaphor for everything. Yeah. That is the same thing. Like when you said that you were dancing for eight, nine, ten hours with the Sufi whirling, sometimes I'd be whirling for eight hours a day and some of these Sufi rituals.

And I couldn't have physically done that. I cannot like put my foot down over and over and over and over again. I can't even, you know, sit without moving and meditation for a certain time. Right. You stay so, um, in a certain state through, um, whirling. So the dance and when it comes to more, it's mystical form. It's not about the dance. It's about being danced. It's okay. It's merging as one. And so there's experiences that you were having in those ecstatic dances. It's like spirit was dancing through you, you surrendered to it. You allowed something greater than you, which was, is you come through and you, it wasn't about moving.

It was about being moved and being the dance. And so in fact, even today, when we look at mystical movement forms, ecstatic dance, especially when it's done with consecration, you know, with prayer, with dedication, um, in an environment that is not so much tainted with alcohol and drugs, um, and with inspired music. Yes. And with a community of Sangha that's all kind of going into it, you know, for reaching higher states, which are very present in here and now in the body. This is so beautiful. This is this is mystical dance. So this fits in very nicely with, uh, my conception of what a creative act actually is and having a creative piece.

I think it's the entire process is what is actually being communicated, which is why you could almost look at an identical piece of art, but if it's created under different conditions, it can resonate different with you. And this is something speaking of Sufis that Hasra and I got con spoke about all the time, this idea of resonance, the primordial sound of the universe being home and all of this stuff. It's so exciting. It's like, whoa. It's incredibly exciting. And I noticed that I was on the train ride down, I was listening to a, there's a series of mixes that come out of Burning Man every year, um, from different camps, electronic music camps, they put these huge sound stages.

And I'm always telling my wife, I'm like, these are the best mixes I've ever heard. Like they're incredible. They're inspired. Like, to the point where like, they could be some of the same songs I'm hearing other places and I know that it's because all of these people have gathered in this place. Sure some of them may be on plant medicines and God knows what, but they're doing it for the community. It's this thing. And that energy is transmuted and the DJs, the conduit for it. And it's truly an incredible thing. And I think that also service, service is a very wonderful metaphor for how we should be being, whether we're listening to music, whether we're dancing, whatever, like this is what is being communicated through this.

And when you say, uh, you know, it's like the spirit is dancing you, that's exactly what it is. This is the flow state we're talking about. Like that is what's happening. And to kind of get out of the way and allow that to happen is like, that's one of the best things in the world, like it is incredibly exciting. At the end of the day, it's about being present and surrendering. Yes. And that's what's happening when you're in those States. You're just really present to and you're surrendering to something coming through. And that would be meditation in everyday life, you know, there is a certain state of surrender.

And so, um, and inquiry, like who is drinking this water? Right. You know, where is that impetus coming from? Where is it disappearing to? And so, um, it becomes really fascinating and I can, it's exciting to see that they're just waves of people who are waking up kind of in this everyday level and not having to look towards, um, teachings of ancient times or masters who are in a much more, I won't say narrow, but I would say at least what they're sharing generally, um, because maybe even David speaks about this, you know, they're the outer, the inner and the secret teaching. So even the people who might look quite narrow, ultimately, like even when I was first learning about the Sufi path and going into the Durga's and it seems so dry on one level, of course, juicy on the other, but I was like, you know what, these are hidden tantrics.

So like, I'm sure if I was in the back room with them, they were talking just like my Indian teachers, you know, like full on with, with, um, they're zicker. I mean, they're using the chanting and the, and the breathing, like a pranayama whirling and the music, like it's all there, um, but it's in everyday life. So I think that it's super to see just these waves of people waking up and not having to, um, necessarily have people acknowledge them, like they just know, you, you, you like it at a certain point, you know, and fantastic. Wow. Let's keep going. I love it. I mean, you're touching on, uh, Chogyam Chonkpa is one of my favorite teachers ever, uh, this idea of spiritual materialism and grasping to this identity that you may create for yourself.

And I will say you're a master at this and I love people like this who don't identify with their role so much. They're aware of them, of course, but you don't have to fixate. This is who I am. This is what I do. If that's challenged, I'm going to get defensive. I love that you're, you're talking about, I mean, you're clearly steeped in numerous lineages. So you're not saying lineage and tradition and the wisdom that gets passed down isn't important. Of course it's important. And I, I talk about this a lot with people like, you know, it's one thing to say, I'm a meditation teacher. Now it's another thing to go study with someone who's been steeped in this and then be like, okay, I think I'm going to start incorporating some of this.

But what you're also saying is you don't have to, none of these practices, as far as I can tell, you don't go out and externally gain something and add it to yourself. It is much more of that idea of uncovering what was already there. And that's a very important thing because I think when some of us can kind of get tuned into various spiritual practices, it can be very luring. There can also be cities and powers that come along with some of these things that objectively and subjectively can be amazing. But the idea is that we just do what we're going to do. We are open to what's going to happen and we don't have to look or be a certain way.

And we especially shouldn't expect praise or reward because we're doing this stuff. This is just kind of naturally evolving. So my question to you is this is we're seeing these waves of people, young, old, all demographics across the cultural spectrum kind of tune into this. What do you think is happening? Like there's something happening. What cosmology-wise, metaphysically, what is going on? Do you think? Well, part of it probably is this collective dream. We all have dreamed this before. I do believe this. And we're starting to recognize that actually that's not Noah. That's me too. I'm back to myself.

We're starting to realize that all the wisdom teachings are kind of our own reminders that we left first off, like hello, remember this, remember that. And the wisdom teachings are the wisdom teachings and the masters are the masters and I touch all of their feet because they're reminding us of things and they're giving us a path because when I was just a corporate worker in New York, belly dancer by night, things were happening. But I wasn't aware of it. So you could be in a state of orgasm and not even realize you're having an orgasm. You can be in a state of samadhi and not even know that that's what's happening.

They're going crazy. So we do need these paths and there is something so precious about practice and about the basic practices and it's true as we get deeper into the different lineages, we can get very mystified by the fancier bells and whistles practice and they all exist. But it all comes back to some really basic, basic things that are very much parallel in all the traditions. Like the ultimate truth is so similar and kind of the basic practices and that everything in between is just kind of your personal preference and how much you want to get lost in something. But I think it's just a collective, like we're ready to wake up and you know.

That is what it is. I mean it is. And I mean it's hard to sometimes hold the relative and absolute truths together, right, to know that we live in a dualistic universe. There's hot and they're cold. They're sweet and sour. There's these things. There's genders. There's things. But to also know that we are interconnected. So when you're talking with another person, it's also yourself, when you do something bad to someone else, when you lie to someone else, it's really aligned to yourself. That is a relatively difficult thing to walk through constantly. But when you can begin to open that and then treat your interactions, relationships with yourself and other people, the world just fundamentally changes.

It's incredible. I know this probably sounds a little woo-woo and weird and magical thinking. But it's as simple as even if you want to bring it down to like neuroscience, like you have neural pathways in your brain. If you can begin to augment and change what those are, your entire perception of your world changes fundamentally. And that's kind of what we're talking about. Yeah, I had a question and I forgot it. But that's actually where as you're saying within your pathways, that's where the practice comes in. That's where yes, I do recommend that people are going to do a 10-day silent retreat, get it unplug and go and sit with some llamas and go back into some traditional practices or go on a yoga retreat or yes, go to India and spend a month in the Himalayas and just being in a culture where spirit is interwoven with everyday life.

I think that's really valuable. I actually have seen that a lot of people that I work with and even with myself, had I not left kind of my box, which was my kind of standard life in New York, in the West. I just wouldn't even know what the possibilities were, you know, it's like turning on the light. And so sometimes that does mean removing yourself from your conditioned world to uncondition. And then you can go back with a certain awareness and your eyes more open and then you can integrate. So I actually, honestly, well, we say like we don't want to leave the world. In some ways, we do need to leave the conditioned world that, you know, that illusion, the illusion of what we think is what our life is and why we're here.

And so I, there is value to like running to the Himalayas or running to the jungles of the Amazon, whatever it might be, just to completely shift. For me, it was going to Antarctica, you know, it's like, whoa, that shifted my perspective. I did not realize that things were not as I thought they were. Well, it's like taking a step back. I mean, this is what psychedelics did for so many people in the '60s and now the new way to this day is it jostles you out of your regular consciousness. And like you're saying, there is value in that and that's many experiences I've had to get me to any of these realizations that maybe I knew all along.

I had to be jostled out. I would also include getting out of your regular life can include what we would typically refer to as negative experiences, uncomfortable experiences that like breakups or deaths or big transitional periods with your career, whatever it is. These are the things that also kind of knock us off our little, I know what's going on track and can be incredibly valuable teaching and learning tools for us. I remembered my question. So can we talk about a little bit about some of these feminine, divine principles and how some of them are actually really what we need right now and we're looking at kind of the cultural spectrum and just our interpersonal relationships?

Could you talk about like what emerges through kind of the Shakti stuff that you've investigated and been teaching? I think a lot of what emerges is exactly what we're talking about. It's really getting out of the mind. It's not about doctrines or principles really or theory, it's about finding the sacred finding ourselves in everyday life. So I think part of maybe what you're referring to is also maybe this perceived rift between the masculine and feminine that we're seeing that the world is so young and such a patriarchal kind of approach to things. So for example, when we meet together in our Shakti groups, we meet in circle.

So there's no like straight lines and on the teacher on the front, like we are all equal in the circle. We all see each other. The circle is one of the geometrical forms of the heart center and it's about connection, the interconnectedness of it. We become mirrors to each other in every moment. So I think the feminine approach is more about this interconnectedness of everything. It's no longer the pyramid structure. The pyramid is a sacred shape as well. It's really seeing everyone eye to eye and there's a certain aspect of divine feminine work which just really goes beyond the mind and it's even hard for me.

I can't even start to put words around it. And like it's an experience. Yes, it's experiential. That's what I was going to say. And it's not about asking for permission of others, it's just like you do your work and you find your way and so it is. I mean that is, there's like we are culturally as you pointed out, we're still very much in a male-dominated patriarchal society. That said, what has become abundantly clear to me is not just women, but many men too are recognizing that this is totally out of whack. This is not okay in any way and we're not just talking about women not getting equal pay.

We're talking about just cultural systems that have infiltrated people's views. Myself included. I grew up as a guy. I still notice it in myself. If I want to cry or something in public, I got to make sure my son, not cry like ball, but if something moves me that I'm watching, I need to hide it from other people. So like I consider myself a relatively woke individual to use that term, but there is this kind of movement that has emerged that I think we're beginning to get in tune with some of these. Typically, I don't know that they're exactly feminine principles, but compassion, openness, intuition.

These are the beacons that are actually going to guide us to this thing we're talking about, this world where maybe things aren't as competitive in the linear sense. Maybe we can all survive and there's not a scarcity thing going on and there is a way to actually live in abundance not just like I'm going to be rich type of way, but really like serve ourselves and our community and I have a personal theory about this and I've spoken about it a little bit on this podcast. I do think cannabis has quite a bit to do with this kind of cultural shift we're seeing in this country. And I know this experientially and also through peers and larger groups of this.

I think a lot of men who have enjoyed cannabis secretly and not just like I don't want to get high and have fun, but really engage with the plant as an ally. It's a female part of the plant. It merges with your consciousness in a very interesting way and I notice those things like compassion being open-minded being able to listen do tend to emerge over time for people who engage with the plant in a very mindful way and I think that as we see cannabis continue to grow in popularity and acceptance in this country, I think that's playing a small if not important role in kind of changing people's ideas.

But in the same way that mindfulness is too this core tenant of awareness and recognizing what's going on, you can see the fucked up things a little bit more clearly like, I don't think it should really be like that. That doesn't seem fair. So yeah, I mean, it's just, it's an amazing time because, you know, things are changing so quickly, almost day to day. Let me ask you this, we've been in the mystical world quite a bit. What do you think about the cultural kind of political things that are happening? You know, like a lot of people, you seem like a very optimistic person, which is, I could be wrong.

You can tell me, but I found something that people who really commit inwardly to inner development, discovering their true nature and the true nature of reality, whatever we want to call that, generally seem to be very happy and optimistic people even in the face of something like Donald Trump or, you know, horrible impending war or whatever it is. So what is your kind of approach to the dualistic world we live in and these things that are coming up? How do you engage with that stuff? Interestingly enough, I grew up in a pretty political family. My, I grew up in a home just outside of Washington DC in the suburbs of Maryland.

Where? I grew up there. I grew up in Silver Spring. I was just there two weeks ago. Okay. So you know, you know this environment and my mother and my stepfather, both very much in working for the government and all kinds of things anyway. So in even, so I think I know what, I know that part of reality and it was a big part of my reality until I left a little bit family and things like that. I think where I am right now is puzzled like most people are and wondering what can we really do, but for me, it always just goes back to my own individual practice and the way I interact with things, you know, moment to moment, it's moment to moment.

And it's, it's, it's not about what Donald Trump is doing. It's like, how am I relating to the taxi driver? How am I speaking my truth? How am I expressing what I think should be everyday liberties for people, you know, in everyday life? So for me, it just comes back to like not trying to blind myself, although sometimes it's easier to turn off CNN and not listen to, you know, what's happening with the FBI, et cetera, and everything else. I think, I think it just comes down to this moment where are you right now and, you know, being as open, aware, compassionate in this moment. And if we all are just moment to moment in this state of presence and surrender, I think that's the only way we can go.

And then of course, hopefully things shift and it's, if they don't, it's more the way we respond to them, how we interact with them. It's not so much it's happening because in parallel universes, worst things are happening in parallel universes, you know, it's Deva Loca. So it's really, I feel, and as woo, as it sounds, these are all just learning points, tests, opportunities, it's like, how do I respond to that? Yeah, what is my role, but it's not so much like fighting against something. It's like, okay, like, how do I integrate that? I mean, this is, in my estimation, the correct answer. And this is, you know, we all oscillate in terms of how much we tune in.

I think I've found, finally, my happy place of engaging with the political world and kind of what's going on culturally is I'm aware of what's going on. I am not putting my head in the sand and being like, I don't care, it's not important. But I just, after that first week, that first month, I just was like, this is unsustainable. This is this level of intention, attention and energy for something that I really have so little control of on the actual stage, you know, I can't do it. And I love that your answer is the same as Ramdas' answer. It's the same as my answer is the same as most people's answers who really recognize where they are is work on yourself.

Because if you don't, and you say, I want to go take action right now, that's the most important thing to me. And you're all fucked up inside, you're going to bring that same fucked upness to every single thing you do. And this isn't to discourage, and I know it's kind of alluding to this. This isn't to discourage political activism, social activism. These are incredibly important things. And they're also paths in themselves, right? Absolutely. And I know many people who are on these paths, it's just that make sure you know what's going on as you go on that path, because that is a very tantric path.

That is one you're really on the razor's edge. You can go either way if you're pushed so. But I do really think it comes down to what can we do? How do we relate to this? And it's also the answer of someone who recognizes that you aren't really you. That I isn't really I, that me isn't really me. Yeah, sure. We know that we have to work as individuals and go through life, but we don't get too caught up in these sticky situations. And it also gives us an opportunity to respond in kind of a contradictory way. Like when I see at this point, Donald Trump or Jeff Sessions is a tough one for me. But Donald Trump, you know, like I really am at the point where I can't just all the time extend him compassion and love.

But I recognize like to get to the point where you're doing this on the world stage, like, you're a pretty hard life, like this isn't, you weren't, it wasn't easy for you. Like you probably have a hole in your heart the size of your parents. Like I get that, it doesn't excuse behavior, but when you can kind of drop into that unconditional love, which is a very hard thing to do, and you know, you don't want the love Donald Trump and support, everything does, but when you can do that, again, it's a radically transformational thing. And like you're saying, it's an opportunity. It's a lesson. And that's kind of what the secret behind my question was, is I look at Donald Trump as this avatar of so many horrible things for so many reasons.

But he's also a reflection of a lot of us too. We do some of the things Donald Trump does. We act like jerk sometimes. We've done fucked up things. So to only put it on someone else and not look at that own stuff in you is doing yourself and ultimately everyone around you with this service. And we've collectively allowed Donald Trump to, you know, he didn't appear on his own. He's not an army of one, so there's a whole system in place. We say, we're not the system. Well, we're saying that, you know, we're the path of Advaita and who is the who is he? I see him. He's a figment of my own mind, you know, and he's bringing to me something I need to learn.

So as I cross all these things for me, I try to be as awake to like, what am I supposed to learn from this? Yes. It's such a good question. And part of it is, okay, look how asleep we all are, which means me. Look at the part of me that are still asleep and look at the parts that he's waking up. Yes. It's very interesting. It's a dance. Yes. It is a dance, right? I mean, there it is. It's just the fascinating thing to see how people respond to these difficult situations. Like I just feel like a lot of us now are on this. I'm not. I really have tuned out to the point where he may get impeached. He may not get impeached, but I see people who are off for two weeks right back in because the idea of somehow him not being president will now mean that all of the bad things that are going on ceased to be bad.

That's, that's not how it works. So I don't want to get too caught up in the political things because I think what you're actually doing with your trainings and going around the world, that is the natural antidote. That is what we do. You can go into the political arena if you want to and try to fix it from within. Good luck. But if you focus on yourself, your community, your loved ones, and then give them the tools potentially or open their eyes up to the tools they already had, that is actually what creates a paradigm change, not going to try to get elected president and change it from the top down.

So I think you're totally attending to that. Let me just check here. Oh man, we're having a great time. So I end with three questions and then a larger question at the end. The three will seem somewhat silly. What is your favorite color? Oh my gosh. You're wearing blue. I was going to say blue, but it's not my favorite color. I'm so impressionable. He said black and then the other person like, no, it's white. So I'd like a lot of color. We'll go yin yang this for that one. Right? You get the black and the white. With a lot of red. There you go. Red. There you go. What's your favorite number? Three.

I'm a king of threes over my past year, I guess. What's your favorite animal? Dauphin came up, but I think that's just because everyone says dolphin, but there it is. Dauphin came up. No one says dolphin. That's mine. You plucked it out of my head. You're the third person who's ever said dolphin out of 83. So that's pretty cool. Last question. What's a practical tip that you've learned or has helped you in your life that you could share with people listening that you think could help them? Well, there you go. Yeah. A practical tip. Practical something. Practical day to day. I think having a lot of gratitude for the good and the bad, like every moment.

It's like, whoa. This is happening to me. This is horrible. I don't deserve this. It's like, you know what? There's something really deep in there for you, especially if you're triggered by it. Be grateful. Be grateful. Just like, just embrace it, dance with it. I think it would be like, as things come to you, rather than like pushing it away or grasping it. It's like, dance with it. There's something there, like really potent. I love it. I have gratitude reminders on my phone that go off several times a day so I can just kind of remind. What's interesting is, after the time I'll ignore them, I don't have time for that.

Being grateful, who's got the time, but truly, if I were to give one specific thing that has helped me in more of my life, it's being grateful. Exactly what you're saying, too. Even when the shitty stuff happens. Especially when the shitty stuff happens because then you maybe need some time and space to really recognize it, but that's really one positive. Monica, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much. Thank you. What a great way to come back to the East Village and get with you and talk about life and Donald Trump and gratitude. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to that episode. Monica. Wonderful. Beautiful. Excellent person. Superlatives galore. Go check out Monica@monica.taraj.net. You can find out everything about her. She's leading workshops coming up all over the world. Please check her out if you're interested. Doing some really cool stuff. A reminder, if you want to support the show, donating would be awesome. You don't have to do it, but if you're listening at this point, maybe you'll like it, always open to that. There's also Patreon, which I mentioned, there's rewards that you can get in exchange for a monthly contribution to the show.

What else do we got here? Creative Evolution. I know some of you have already taken it. I would be remiss if I didn't mention Patrick in regards to Patreon. He is a producer level. His name gets mentioned every single episode, so way to be Patrick Euro. But, yeah, if you want to contribute, it's greatly appreciated. We have some other exciting things coming up, some live events, some workshops in the works. So stay tuned for those. If you want to connect with the show, you know what to do. Sinkpodcast.com, join the email community, the Facebook community, whatever you want to do. And as you heard in the beginning of this episode, I'm going to start running some ads for some fellow MindPod network podcasters at the beginning.

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