Ep. 73 - Tim Heidecker

(upbeat music)

There's so much that just comes from not really thinking about it, just blurring it out or saying it, and then it sticks and then it gets its own little trajectory.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. (upbeat music)

Welcome to episode 73 of Synchronicity. My guest this week, I'm gonna put in a drum roll here, Tim Heidecker, from everything that I have liked and loved, that I've found funny over the past, I don't know how many years, decade or so. You know Tim from things like Awesome Show Great Job with Eric Wehrheim, Bedtime Stories, that's with Eric, billion dollar movie. Steve Rule character with John C. Riley, his production company, absolutely. Nathan Fielder's come out of there, right? Jesus man, Eric Andre, Doug Lussenhaup. As many people as you can imagine who are awesome, Tim has worked with. Also, I had heard from his friends, Jay Weingarten, Mikey Vic, all people who know Tim in some capacity or another have just attested to the fact that he was one of the nicest people that they have come across.

That's pretty cool, 'cause all of those people I've gotten to know them are also some of the coolest and nicest people. So, we follow the chain, right? Tim, I'm so gracious to do this interview. You'll hear me express my gratitude throughout this intro and the episode, because it really was Vic Burger hooked this up, and I'm so glad that he did, because it was fun to just have a conversation with someone I really admire. And to hear also his perspectives on things like collaborating with other people, 'cause I think he does an excellent job of that, and I think that's a really cool thing to be good at, and work with such amazing and talented people.

We also talk about On Cinema season nine, which is going on now. So, I'm gonna give a little bit of a breakdown of what On Cinema is. You'll hear us reference it at some point in this podcast. So, On Cinema is a show, a movie review show that Tim does with Greg Turkington. Basically, in character, they have this alternate world where Tim is a huge asshole, always trying to kind of like, pushes his projects and what's going on, and Greg is kind of like a lonely, lose-ish movie nerd, and it's just one of the funniest dynamics that I've seen emerge over. It's hard to believe nine seasons at this point, but if you haven't checked that out, go check it out from the beginning.

Adult Swim features it. It's on YouTube, it's all of the places. I'm gonna have links, FYI. Everything you hear me talk about, I'm basically putting together like a best of Tim Heidecker project page for this episode. That's gonna be at syncpodcast.syncpodcast.com/tim. Also, if this is more fanatically pleasing to you, minepodnetwork.com/tim. Those will both take you to everything I'm referencing here in this intro rather. So, definitely check out On Cinema. We talk about that, we talk a little politics in here. It was just nice to hear his perspective and just how he comes up with comedy. You heard in the little intro, a lot of this does have to do with intuition.

And just kind of really coming from a place of just what makes him and his friends laugh and trying to get that out in its purest form. And I think that's really a testament to kind of the idea that everything you put into anything, whether it's comedy, writing, music, whatever it is, that shines through in the final product. It's everything cumulative from that process that's actually being shared with people. I think that's cool. So, I anticipated a cool and fun conversation and that's what we had. That's it, that's it. I'm not even gonna plug anything in the beginning of this because why would I do that?

Besides, unless you wanted to subscribe, write and review after the show. If you liked it, if you didn't like it, you can still review it, but I'm like, you know, one sorry if you want. But please, that would be cool if you could do that if you liked the show. Massive thanks to Tim. Thank you to Vic and without further ado, here is Tim Heidegger. Hey, Tim, how you doing?

Good, how are you? Can you hear me all right? I can hear you, I'm gonna turn off my video.

Yeah, there's no reason for us to look at it.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man, for doing this. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, it's no problem. I don't really know, tell me a little bit about yourself. I'm not sure, I mean, I just don't know who you are.

Yeah, no, I am a person who, I have a podcast network, which is basically, it's not spiritual per se, but we talk about things that we think people wanna hear about. So like dealing with stress, anxiety, anger, fucked up shit in the world, death, all that stuff, but we're trying to do it in a way that's not like very heavy and like religious and dogmatic. So that's kind of what I'm doing right now. I, you know, I got really, I've been a big fan of yours for a long time, but I got tuned into Vic a very long time ago, and Vic and I went to the same school college, Berkeley.

Okay.

And so that's how I'm just super grateful for him for hooking this up and yeah, I don't really, I don't really know exactly.

You're in, how old are you, and you live in New York, and what's your Vic's age?

Yeah, I'm Vic's age, I'm 33, I just had my first child about 10 months ago, yeah.

10 months ago, you said?

Yeah, he's 10 months on the ninth. So yeah, it's pretty nuts. And I know you just had a boy too, so in October, so congrats on that, it's pretty awesome. So yeah, I'm just, I really don't know what to say about myself to you.

Yeah, no, that's good enough.

Okay, cool.

Shouldn't have much to say by this at that age. I think 33, you should be like, oh, I don't have much to say for myself yet.

That is pretty much my stance.

I definitely am gonna be more of a listening and finding out things for the next however long, so yeah. And in terms of the podcast, basically it's just, it's a conversation, I use it as an opportunity to talk to cool people who I admire and look up to, and I think are doing cool stuff. There's no overt theme to it. When Vic came on, both times we were talking about politics a lot, obviously, but it's pretty free form and really I just use it to find out about cool people.

And your high levels are good for you and everything?

Yeah, you sound pretty good. I don't hear any feedback or anything, so I assume it's just coming in from computer speakers, so it sounds good.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah, you're good. Cool, man, well, I guess we'll just get started. Thank you so much for coming on. As I was doing my cursory research for this, it just dawned on me like how much you actually do. It's like kinda insane. It was just like seeing it.

Let's go through it.

Yeah, I was listening through. I mean, I'd like to start with on cinema, but I also wanna point out something else before we get into it, which is, I'm just gonna seem like a roundabout way to do this, but I'm a big Stevie Wonder fan. And as I've gotten more, I've been privileged to meet people who know Stevie Wonder. I'm not like confirmation that he's like an excellent, excellent human being. And as I've met people who know you personally, I've also found that out. So it's just like, it's always encouraging and inspiring to see people who are doing stuff that I love and respect out in the world, but also are like very nice people too.

I think that's, I just wanted to point that out and I'm super happy.

Oh, that's nice to hear.

Yeah, man.

You know, a few years ago, or I don't know how, you know, probably several years now, I started to notice a trend on message boards and stuff, people talking about me, and there was this perception that I was this big dick, like I was this bad asshole. And I think that's just a lot of people taking a lot of my personas that I put out there as a base value. And, you know, even in the live Tim and Eric shows, you know, I come out and I'm just brutal. And so that perception kind of just started to take hold, I think, and there was just this assumption that that was kind of really who I was.

Which I get, but then I like, but you know, every personal encounter I've had, almost, almost, that I can recall, I can't recall one that was not, but if you would meet me after a show or on the street or something, I always, I mean, and maybe almost too much, like all the way to be polite and friendly and respectful. So I'm like, when does that, when does that start tripling into that search?

Well, we're gonna get it out in this podcast because truthfully, I mean, it's weird. I mean, I get obviously like you do why people would think that some of the personas you put on, you know, a lot of them from the stuff you put out is very kind of like an acerbic combative type of guy. But what's weird why people I think would actually think that is like, there's another element to the stuff and a lot of the people you work with, the stuff that you put out that it's like, there's something very like pure and genuine about it too. So even if it is kind of like a persona of being nasty, there's some like poking fun element to that too, which it would be weird to me that people didn't see, but you know, when you're dealing with reaching millions of people, you know, everyone's gonna react in a different way.

So it's understandable, but yeah, I get it, man. So all right, let's start with on cinema because today is a brand new season, season nine, I've eagerly been anticipating it. And I wanted to bring up that I had forgotten this, but I remember listening when it was just a podcast and it was just kind of like a spoof of like podcasters, you know, it was kind of silly like, making fun of movie stuff, but it's evolved into this, which is kind of a common theme and a lot of stuff you work with. This whole alternate reality of like you as a character and Greg Tarkington as a character that is really just like one of the funniest things that I tune into on a regular basis.

But what I wanted to specifically talk about it is another thing you seem to be amazing at is, and I really admire this, is you work really well with other people and you kind of bring out this like alchemy and this energy from whoever you're working with that just makes it like an overall amazing thing. So I was wondering like, has this, have you always been good at working with other people?

Ah, have I, well, I've always found, yes, I mean, I think collaborative creation is at the heart of what I do. It's, there are some more solitary things I do, but I also have always been in bands and I've always used, I've always, I mean, I guess one way to think about it is the friendships that generally tend to be of other creative people and the way we enjoy spending our time together might be in making stuff a lot of the time. That's at least where some of that starts, you know? And I don't know how else we, you know, they're just, I mean, there's not, the people I get to do that would also happen to be some of the best at it as well.

In my opinion.

No, no, yeah.

Like there's nobody more like forward thinking and creative and passionate about stuff than Eric. You know, Greg is one of the most naturally funny, like just in general in life, people I've ever met, you know, and I get to work with Jossie Riley, who's just, who's fond, fond of unbelievable talent and, and you know, this goes on. But I guess, I guess, you know, I think I, I tend to be good at, I have a pretty good work ethic and I tend to be around people that might not have the best work ethic. So I'm providing a little bit of an engine there sometimes and, you know, so that, it's a good, it's often a good mix of, you know, there's a, I like a lot of, I try to, you know, try to treat everything a little seriously and, and try to see things through.

And, and that, you know, that helps when, that's encouraging to another person to work with me.

Right.

That's helpful to that.

No, I mean, that's, that's, that's interesting to hear because, you know, I, you know, you asked me at the beginning what I did. I, you know, I went to a music college I've generally hung out with and a lot of my friends are very creative people and there is something that seems to be an element and a lot of creative people is this kind of, you know, it's hard to get consistent for a lot of people to turn it into something that they can finish and a project and even have it be related to money and somehow it's something that a lot of creatives aren't, aren't interested in, which is a shame because it seems like as time goes on, especially with the internet, it's becoming more important to like actually develop those habits.

And I mean, I'm not surprised to hear it from you because, like I said, man, I was just, you know, I have engaged with probably like 80, 90% of the stuff you put out, even the small little things, but it's just astounding to see it all listed out and like how prolific you are in this stuff. Like have you, is this just like something that's been in you since like you so, was your first kind of creative endeavor being in bands?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, aside from making metal plays and puppet shows and stuff in the basement.

Yeah, I mean, in high school, there was a few bands floating around and we gave it a best shot, but then I think I would recall a very distinct moment of being wanting to be an actor and being involved in the local theater a lot and doing a lot of plays and stuff. Expecting me, there was a feeling that I was gonna go on to some kind of theatrical school or was gonna pursue, you know, theater basically.

Right, great acting. And I didn't get it, there was a program in high school that was like the summer program that I didn't get into. That was very disappointing and it was kind of assumed that I was gonna get into it. And that was really upsetting. And at the same time, I was discovering like Woody Allen, I was discovering, you know, the movies from the '60s and '70s and I was really getting into film. I felt like maybe the smart thing to do would be to, you know, like Woody Allen did was to just make your own stuff and then I could put myself in my work and I could make, you know, I get into the business that way and it did seem a little practical to, but I really did have these like, I did have this discussion, my parents, everything was like, I could learn a trade at least, I could learn, you know, something that had, like, you know, a potential career as opposed to acting would seem much more flimsy and, you know, unstable.

So that put me in the mind to go film school, which still is a place without a lot of potential, you know? But it still, it was, you know, my, it was my plan.

Right, and you were like learning something going and doing it. So like, how did that going to film, did you meet Eric at film school? When did you meet Eric?

Yeah, yes, freshman year, we were on the same floor, same dorm, we were in the same classes, but very, you know, about four of us were all kind of experiencing this for the first time, together. - That's cool. Yeah, so how did that evolve into, 'cause I know that the fame story of you sending some stuff to Bob Odenkirk, who is another, you know, just amazing, also hear the stories about him, just such an incredibly nice person. How did that evolve? Like, you guys were making something and you were just like, we're gonna mail it to this guy, 'cause we like what he does.

Well, yeah, and we, it evolved slowly over four years of college together, kind of getting partnered up and making little proto-taminaric style videos and very, very organically, without a real vision for what it was supposed to be. It was just kind of going in the direction that we, that was, that felt funny to us, or felt, um, I don't know, there wasn't a real sense of comedy back then to us, it was just like making stuff and making weird stuff, making artistic artsy stuff, I guess. And so we were all like, you know, if we weren't in a band, we were doing an art gallery, like, you know, making, making installation stuff, or videos.

And that was, you know, Philadelphia art in the, living in the city and being around other musicians and artists, and there wasn't, like, a career trajectory really, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just like going to see bands and going to art galleries and, but we would also, like, you know, we would drink, you know, some mall liquor and make a prank phone call.

Yes, yeah, totally.

And, you know, filming that. And then we'd film weird videos in the middle of the night that were just like, you know, weird, us wearing Halloween masks and jumping around the room and just, we would, you know, just make stuff and, and make prank a lot of prank phone calls. You know, that was, that was a lot of energy spent there. And after college, we both, I went to New York and I kind of was, I had gotten back into trying to, I was like, well, I did, I did, I worked on some film crews and after film call, after film school and was pretty disheartened by that. 'Cause, you know, as anybody can tell you, like, you know, working on a low run of a film crew after a few months from me was like, this isn't what I want you to do.

Yeah, I don't want to like run the Walmart and buy rollerblades at six in the morning for some romantic comedy, you know. And I just, it was hard work and I wasn't very good at it. I wasn't a good worker and I wasn't like a good employee. So I moved to New York as I had done a few plays and Philadelphia that I thought a few friends had moved and moved there and felt like I would, I would try to restart that and maybe get it back and acting and writing and getting, just going and doing, I mean, I was like, I'm going to try to do stand up. Like, it was like, let me try to get this creative thing going and it's all my angles in Philadelphia that got played up.

So I was in New York and Eric was in Philly and he was doing, he had got a little cottage industry doing like wedding photography and wedding photography and that kind of stuff. So he had a little thing going but we would talk and instant message each other and trade ideas and stuff. And we had, you know, so we, as friends, we'd get together and make stuff on the weekend and that kind of started forming into a little bit of a, there was a, I don't know, theme of our kind of consistency to it that then evolved into something more serious.

Well, man, there's a few things also that I pulled out of, you had an awesome conversation with my buddy Duncan the last time you were on his podcast where we got to kind of see some more of like your inner workings of how this stuff worked and you touched on, you were brought up a story about Steve Martin and his early stuff and how he was talking about something that clicked for you, which was the stuff that you were working on was really trying to take, like when you're with your friends and you're laughing and you're being silly, like maybe you had a drink, maybe you smoke something, but it was something that was like silly and personal.

And that, what's so interesting about this to me is that shines through in almost every single thing you're a part of with the people you're working with and it also, like I said, it adds their little twists and elements too, like could you talk a little bit about kind of the genesis, like you also mentioned that, you know, the two themes I also see in your stuff is like instinct and collaboration. That's like kind of a general framework for what you're doing. Could you talk a little bit just like how do you approach a project that you think you wanna work on with someone where you have an idea, like what's the process for you and I'm sure each one is a little bit different, but what's that like for you?

Well, yes, it is different than each one. I think there's not a lot of conscious thought. I think there's a little bit of gut and instinct. And, you know, the one way is like, you know, lots of ideas percolate and some stick around longer. And the one, I think the ones that, you know, the more you talk to other people about and the ones that you're most excited about generally have the best chance of success. I mean, I guess I can just talk about on cinema and the way that's slowly bubbled and like, the one thing that was very clear about that was always that it was something that we just loved to do.

And because we were able to do it as a podcast for so long, it was almost free to do it for it, you know, it was over no costs involved. So we could let it just, we could, you know, we were out at a bar, we could go to the corner and record something on our phone. I got a little more serious than we would just get together in my garage and do a bunch of, and it did so slowly and organically bubbled itself out of that one, even when we did the first season for Thing X, I guess it was this guy, Joe Randazzo, who used to run the onion, who was giving a bunch of money from Turner to make a website.

And one of the first things he did was like, say, you should turn that podcast into a show. We kind of figured out what that would be and then we made one and it was just satisfying. And you know, it just, I don't know, it just became a total blank canvas to do anything in one of it. But it had a narrative, or it had an episodic structure in the engine that you could, we really, early realized, oh, we can make these for the rest of our life. We wanted to because there's always gonna be a movie coming out tomorrow.

Right.

You know, so that was exciting. And the more we, you know, it was also like almost like writing a book or something because you could, or a cartoon or something because anything in that world could happen. 'Cause all you had to do was talk about it.

Right. And then it's a thing, yeah.

That it became a thing. You didn't have to go to Jackson Hole. You didn't have to shoot anything in Jackson Hole. You just had to talk about it and the audience couldn't do their own imagination about what that was like. So, yeah, I mean.

And then from there, you also like, did Decker come specifically out of "On Cinema" and like, some of these other characters, they just like, it took on a life of its own too, which is amazing.

Yeah, and sorry, I'm eating.

That's okay.

There's so much that just comes from not really thinking about it, just blurting it out or saying it. And then it sticks and then it gets its own little trajectory.

Right.

So, Decker became a bragging, like a little story point in "On Cinema" that I was gonna make my own. I can do better than all these movies.

Right, right.

It was just a thing to brag about. I mean, I think we were talking about it before it even existed.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that--

Or we had shot like a little scene. But, you know, I was watching one of those old Peter Sellers and Panther movies get it on TV and I was like, I saw the connection. And I saw what like Mike Lazo would have built swim salts as soon as he saw us playing around with his Decker characters.

Right.

And that's just like an easy thing to translate into another show. Like, you know, I would say to Panther, 'cause, you know, you see him in that trench coat and the mustache and the hat. You're like, you got, it's like, just like in the black suit and--

Some glasses.

Here, it's like, it's just, all your work is, have your work is done. 'Cause you've got this thing to build around.

Well, and so the other thing, speaking of Decker too, like this, it starts to merge. And this is another really cool thing that I think a lot of the work that you do does is, it kind of, it's like our reality that we live in and engage with every day, but it's just, this is one of the reasons I love Vic stuff so much. It's just tweaked 5% or 10% in a weirder direction or a layer is peeled off. So like a lot of the things you were doing for Decker were like, you know, this is before Trump was elected, but like, you know, it was like a clear parody of some of the ways he's acting with like the purse lips and stuff.

So like, what do you have like a particular angle when you're doing this stuff? Or is it really just kind of like free form, whatever is gonna make us laugh? Maybe we can weave some stuff in. Like, how do these things evolve in your mind and then turn in to like, you know, a character?

Well, I think when we're, when we're sort of building and developing my character along the cinema, I mean, this isn't like that. I don't mean to say sound like there's 20 people in a room, you know, like with the diagrams and stuff. But, you know, there's, as he becomes more evident with the kind of person he is, it seems natural to give him a political one of you. And, you know, of course it's gonna be something already conformed by, you know, whatever, Rush Limbaugh, or Len Beck or something like that. And it's like, that's just, you know, somebody online, the editor there was like, I didn't write back, but it was like, I don't get any bash prompt on Twitter, but your, but on, on cinema, your character was like, endorsing, you know, this cognitive dissonance coming from, and you just, I felt bad 'cause I guess that would be confusing if you weren't paying enough attention, but it was clearly, to me, like the Tim Heidecker on cinema is the, a villain of the highest degree.

Right, right.

And so when we, of course he's going to be a Trump fan. You know, of course he's gonna believe in all these right-wing title points of, you know, personal liberty and freedom and, you know, pro-life, unless it's my wife, you know.

You're right, you're right.

You know, all that crap and limited government and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so that informs my character and then it informs Deckard because my character is the one writing and making that.

Right, right.

But the world is there for us to use as inspiration. I mean, every storyline is ripped from the headlines in some way and the more Trump rose in prominence to the place now raised by the president, there's been just so much to draw from to incorporate into Deckard because--

Yeah.

I don't think I was thinking about Trump originally, but he blended it a little bit. It was sort of a natural thing, this braggadocious, overly confident thing. And as we shot the most recent season, which is kind of what it was here, I started, okay, oh, look at how Trump like raises his chin up, you know, after he said something of, what he does that, that's snip. And, you know, and sort of that waddle he does and he's like from one back and forth. And so there were things like we were, you know, you'd pick up on little phrases like dream swamp and, you know, that kind of stuff gets kind of like melted in a little bit.

Well, we don't want it to be this out of all, but--

Right, right, right.

But it's, you know, it's certainly informed by him 'cause he's such a cartoon.

He's a cartoon, I mean.

Ridiculous person.

Ridiculous person.

He's an avatar of ridiculousness and it's a blessing and a curse, I'm sure, comedically, and Vic and I spoke about this a little bit 'cause, you know, when Vic started like the Trump Repres, like Instagram and all that other stuff, like we weren't, we were laughing about it all time. I think Trump retweeted one time. We were like DM each other, like this is hilarious. We were still firmly in the camp. We're like, oh, well, he's obviously not gonna get very far anywhere. And now you have, you know, he's in charge. So I wanted to shift there not to dwell on politics too much. It's something--

Oh, okay.

Me too. I actually really do too, and I weirdly am someone who is very optimistic about the state of politics and just kind of our country, which I know is a hard thing to say at this point when things are objectively not great. But, I mean, another part of this too is like, you started doing these charitable, you started making, you've been doing songs for a long time and I wanna get into the music stuff 'cause it's a big part of my life too, but you started also releasing songs and then attaching them to charity. The donations and the proceeds are going, which to me and I wrote to Vic about this.

As soon as I saw you do this, I was like, this is one of the coolest things I've seen. This is like a way to feel--

But you don't think I'm really getting that money to share.

Yeah. (laughing) No, I mean, but seriously, it is like a very, very, very cool thing to do because it connects these different facets of I'm sure that you care about in your life, which is making music, having some commentary on the things going on, but also really providing some way to help people. I'd be curious, like what? And I see you engage with some people on Twitter about this stuff, but what do you think? We have kids, right? You have kids now, I have kids like, what do you think is going on? What is kind of your approach? Because I know a lot of people, both creative and not, who are just consumed kind of by what's happening.

And I don't think that's very productive. So I'd be curious to see like, how are you dealing with it and your thoughts in general.

That's a big hard question. I think, you know, to go back to the election, the win, that his win, which we were shooting Deckard that week. And I worked with just a bunch of great, liberal, minded, progressive artists, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

A lot of women, like to help them through our artsy, cool women. Everybody went home that night, like, Monday or Tuesday night, you know. Like, you know, we left the office feeling like, well, we left the office and I feel like, uh-oh, you know, like, it was turning at that point.

Right.

It was like, look, I want to have my friend's house and then saw all the chips fall down. And the next morning, I mean, I came in and it was like, everybody was crying, you know what I was like. Everybody was crying and, uh, not everybody was crying.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, and a lot of people on this crew knew that I cared about it, you know, so there was just like this whole fucking wave of shock and depression and, you know, to the point where I, I like how to make a speech or like a, I said a few words and just said, listen, we're here today and, you know, I know we all feel like shit today, but we're here to make fun of this piece of shit. And that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. And like, if you want to put your energy into that, it's maybe it'll help or whatever. Maybe it'll make people feel less crazy. And I mean, that was the, that was the tone.

That was the vibe that I was around over the next few days and people had come to the office or, I said to my friends as I come to the set 'cause it's, we're like laughing over here. I know everyone's like freaking out.

Yeah.

That feeling kind of turned into more of like an anger of like, what do we do with this and how do we fight this? How do we resist this? And that sort of turned into, you know, the women's march.

Right.

Coming out of the women's march and the airport protests and stuff was very, you know, empowering to me and everybody I knew because it felt like there were things you could do. There was money you could give. There was, there were people fighting a good fight. And that felt like those, someone asked like, what was the point of that march? You know?

Yeah, yeah.

I was like, it was, it was the most activated so many people. It turned so many people on to, you know, people in my life that were never political, you know, making these phone calls, signing petitions and donating money and all this stuff. So there was a lot of that. And now I'm starting to feel a little bit of that dip again.

Mm hmm.

I, you know, it's so overwhelming. There's so much, there's so many facets to this. You know, I've been just like, consumed with the Russia stuff.

Right.

I've read it all. I have my own feelings about it. I feel like it makes so much sense that there's this collusion and that, you know, the more you read about the way Putin runs his country in the way, his financial ties and you look at Donald Trump and his career and the beds he must have gotten and felt into.

Right.

You know, and the financial leveraging that he must have had to do, you know, it's, and the shared worldviews of Putin and people like Bannon.

Right.

And there's so much simply coddle there. And so many, so much. There isn't, I mean, apparently it seems like there just isn't the evidence here yet. There isn't like that. There isn't that smoking gun and we're all just sitting on waiting for like, Comey or somebody to come out and be like, okay, you know, one of my friends has the theory that, that Comey is going to be this white knight and there's this.

Oh, really?

But there's this evidence, you know, he's been very quiet and it's because what they're, they're building a case and you don't want to talk about a case until it's all there, but, and that takes time. But the one, you know, you just, it's trying to read between the lines and you hear senators talking about seeing this through and like, oh, this is great. And it just, you know, you want this all to kind of explode into a full blown, sort of working theory for why things are the way they are.

Right.

And I don't, I mean, it's going to be like, I said the other day, I was like, all right, there's two scenarios here. One is that Donald Trump and his pals made, you know, how to deal with the Russians last year that basically said, I will, you know, the Russians said, we only use our tech and our strategies for effective elections to give you a little advantage in this. Under the understanding that you are going to be a friendly to us in certain--

Right, the sanctions, right, right.

Lift sanctions, be friendly, you know, just be an easier partner to work with. And, and also from the Russian perspective, the last person we want there in the way else would be Hillary Clinton.

Right, hawkish, not, yeah, right.

So that, that's one scenario. And that would be a disaster, right?

Yeah, that would mean that the president was in collusion with the foreign government to, you know, (laughs)

Yeah, not good.

Right, the other side, the other angle is that the establishment, the, you know, the establishment, the media, the intelligence community, is running a opposition to our president.

Right.

They're running a campaign to discredit them and to, you know, to try to remove them from the office. That's a disaster too.

Yep.

If that's happening, right? So either way you look at this, it's the total failure of, you know, of, of American, the American political system.

Yeah.

And it feels like, you know, I think we already lost when he, you know, won the Republican national, but when he won the nomination part.

Right, right.

Like just the, it's the game's been over for a little while, and part of me, like, think, so this is the, this is the pessimistic view, is like that the sort of elite oligarchy, you know, our country, the 1% or whatever, has determined, or has, and it has determined, has determined and has helped this way for a little while, is that the American experiment has failed, has broken, is over, and everyone's grabbing what they can, it's a cash grab, and there isn't, because of very fundamental real things about what this country is about, you know, for example, just our, our entitlement obligations to our, our, our, our, our…

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so…

Or our, or the, the trend towards automation, which will…

Right.

…about a large percentage of workers.

Yeah.

So the billionaire class, who Donald Trump is in some ways a member of, I think like, they don't believe in America. They don't believe in the citizenry and the Republican. They believe in their, their lives. Like their little, their community, their gates. And, you know, they, they, I think they're just like, a little bit, a step ahead of carving out someplace for themselves.

Right.

And I don't know if that's going to be physically in America, or somewhere else, you know, but…

Right, right.

But like, they see that this is not, they're not, they're not interested or invested in trying to repair it, or save it, or bring it back to some normal city.

Right.

And those, those are really hard problems to solve. And they don't seem to be trying to solve them. So, that's my perspective. I think Donald Trump is God, and one of the most narcissistic, self-centered, egotistical, self-consumed persons, you know, we've ever seen. So, we're, he isn't, he has no interest in any of us. You know, I mean… So, I've just said a lot. No, no, and it's, I love that you gave both those points because there are a lot of people who I know who are just completely willing to buy the whole Russia thing as it's presented. And, you know, I, just going to the most recent Jeff Sessions thing where they kind of have a gotcha moment.

I read that stuff, you know, the forum he filled out, no for the pointed questions that Frank can ask them. And it's just like, I didn't see it. I didn't see, I certainly believe that a lot of the circumstantial evidence points to, that there is some funny business going on between Trump. And like you said, if you, if you do the math, it certainly looks like he probably had some help. And, you know, he just directly contradicts himself. I know Putin, Putin, I love him. He's a great guy. I never met him. So, you know, and that's Trump. He's going to do that forever. He's in his own little delusional world where, you know, what he says is then truth for the entire time.

He'll say, he'll say, he'll say whatever the person he's in the room that wants to hear. That's right. That is, is about his motto. And that's what everything, I always love when people come out of meetings with him. He's actually very nice, you agree with what I had to say. You know, like you never, you know, you often do. Unless, you know, these stories from this weekend about the angry he is. You always hear like, I think we've got, I think we've got some room to work with him on this. And because he's probably just saying, yes, yeah. I agree that, you know, because he doesn't enjoy you. And he actually doesn't enjoy conflict.

No. You know, person to person says. Well, we were talking about, I talked about spoke about this with Vic too. I mean, he has a hole in his heart, the size of his parents. And he's gonna use whatever mechanisms or tools or resources he has to fill that in every moment. So if that's, that certainly would point to someone who doesn't want conflict, right? They're gonna, they're gonna be as, you know, deferential. Like the biggest proof of this when he met with Obama, you know, during the transition. This was the weirdest thing. You see him like, you know, next to him smiling, being so, being so deferential.

And this is someone who he's savage through the media for years. So back to what you were saying though, about this whole kind of, what I'll refer to is like the deep state, right? The NSA, the CIA, the mainstream media. These are not necessarily people we want fighting our battles and championing what they're doing. These organizations typically throughout history have not necessarily been part of the best decision-making in the world and for the United States. And I agree with you that a lot of this stuff looks and points towards kind of very pessimistic or dystopian perspective of what could happen.

One thing that I think is clear, at least from people my age, people liberals who are older than me, progressives, and especially younger is what I'm, the one thing that makes me concerned is that the level of confusion that seems to be actively being pumped in, whether it's the Russians, whether it's, you know, micro-targeting with Facebook ads and, you know, power and all that stuff, it's really making it hard for people to figure out what's going on, which then can easily turn into disillusionment, which is obviously that's not gonna help, right? I mean, that is, that's not going to, you can be disillusioned and realize that, kind of the artifice of where we're living isn't what we were being told.

But if that doesn't then promote some type of positive action or like, okay, how are we gonna fix this? Then it becomes a serious problem. An analogy that I heard that I'm going with for now, because at the same time, while we're seeing so much of this horrible stuff in front of our faces, I've had so many amazing conversations about people who have specific plans, whether it's local community levels, you know, big nonprofits to action. So Tim and I got cut off real quickly and we'll come back in in a second, but I'm gonna take this opportunity to let those of you who are listening in the Los Angeles area, March 18th, 2017, that's coming up, or it's in the past if you're listening to it, it already happened, it was awesome, it was great.

The coolest thing ever. There is a mind pod network, mind wave event in Los Angeles, March 18th, that's a Saturday, all day affair, there's gonna be live podcasting from people like Danieli Bolelli, Corey Allen from The Astral Hustle, Zach Leary from It's All Happening Podcast, Yoshino, Michael Donovan from Walking Home, Michael Phillip from Third Eye Drops, and more, I will even be there, I'm going to LA, which is gonna be fun. What's more, you ask, it's at 420 East Third Street in Los Angeles, so we didn't, you know, the stars have aligned and that's actually the address for where it is, we'd love to see you there.

If you wanna find out more about what I'm talking about and get tickets, mindpodnetwork.com/mindwave, that's it. Okay, back to the episode with Tim, bye bye. Hey, see, break out the Alex Jones voice 'cause the NSA doesn't wanna talk to you about this stuff. (laughing) But you were saying it's not gonna help. Yeah, it's not gonna help with the disillusionment. One metaphor that I am becoming more and more fond of in talking about this kind of brand of Trumpian, faux populist kind of what we're seeing demagoguery is, I'd like to think of this kind of like a vaccine and I'm not an anti-vaxxer, so I'd like to think that this is maybe a dose of something very nasty and bad that we're gonna have a red bump on our arm for a little bit, but this maybe can provide some clarity about what to specifically prevent in the future.

So I'm hoping that's, it isn't just an optimistic and then the other thing, and this is my kind of ultra kind of woo-woo way of approaching this, I think it's an incredibly hard thing to do, but if you can get to the point, and I was talking about this with Vic and Jay Weingarten, 'cause Jay was super pissed off about all of this, he like was like, he didn't know how to be funny after the Trump thing, and like our conversation was about that like nonstop, but if you can find a way to somehow have compassion or recognize that Donald Trump is a broken human being who will likely never have a real opportunity or chance to figure himself or the world at large out, not that this compassion needs to be, oh well Donald Trump's a great guy, let's let him see what he's gonna do, but just be like, if you can get in the mindset layer, I feel a little bad for this guy, and I hope he does find the solace he's working to.

That becomes an amazing practice or opportunity for those of us like me, and one of my big issues in life is anger, I can get very angry, it can be short to a bird, and it can kind of give us something to work with out there in the world that's while very important for the state of our country, for the global world, our children, it gives us something to work with, and I'm just my sincere hope and concern, or aspirations with this stuff is we take a very dark situation and shine some light on it, and try to say, well this shit is going on, and the truth is if Hillary Clinton would've won, this whole layer of racism, xenophobia, massage, this would've still existed, so maybe by getting this stuff to the surface, we can actually take some positive steps, and recognize that in the next four, potentially eight years, it's probably not gonna get objectively better, but still do the things that we think can help, and I mean, this is how I wanna link this up to what you're doing, I mean, you know, when we're talking about comedy and making people laugh, I don't think there's any better thing in the world that can be done than that in these types of times, like that's something that loosens the shackles of fear from people, this kind of anxiety, and so I think like, when we're talking, it doesn't have to be like this coordinated, like let's form a new paradigm of a utopian society, it's just like, let's figure out the little things we can do starting with ourselves, and then extending that out into the world, whether it's making people laugh, whether it's music, whether it's arts, whether it's conversation, so like, I do think this gives us some type of, you know, template here to approach these things in a positive way and not get overwhelmed, because like you were saying, like you feel the little dip, it's hard not to, I mean, the ride we're on, being plugged in with all of this technology, you know, and the news, the way it comes out this day is it's like, I just remember those first two weeks of like, it just felt like just getting slapped in the face over and over and over again, and everyone I knew felt that to the point where I was like, this is gonna depress the workforce, like, you know, people are gonna stop doing work over these weeks because it's impossible to focus on anything besides this, and I'm just, I guess the point of this is, that I think working on ourselves individually and our friends and our family and putting out stuff that we believe in in the world is kind of the natural antidote to all this shit that we see because, you know, the other part of this and you were alluding to it, here is like, you know, a lot of the systems that we've grown up in and have existed long before us, like another metaphor I'd use is, you know, it's like we were driving on the highway, going like 65, 70, and then the engine cut out.

Your car doesn't immediately stop, right? You post the long for like, until you're done, you hit the brakes and then you pull over. I feel like our engine probably short-circuited like 15, 20 years ago, and now we're slowly getting to the stop and it's kind of like, we have to figure out like, what car do we wanna get into now? Like, how are we gonna make this work so like our kids can have an environment that they're proud of and yeah, so it's just, that's kind of how I'm trying to approach the situation without being foolishly idealistic too, because that's not gonna help anything either. So yeah, I mean, I think this, you know, it's the Chinese curse.

May you be, may you live in interesting times and we certainly are. All right, so I wanna ask you a few more questions. I'm very mindful of your time here. But can we talk a little bit about music and, you know, how, your relationship with music, your album in Glendale, you know, and again, referencing the dunking conversation you had, it's obviously gotta be a little difficult for you to release projects that aren't satirical, that are more personal because of your persona, because of some of the stuff that you've been involved with. But, you know, for me and I love listening to quality music, like, you're a very talented musician and the way you put yourself out there and the kind of music you make, it's very good.

And I'd just be curious, like, who are some of your musical influences, you know, you mentioned playing in bands, but how does music fit into, like, the cosmology of your life?

Right, well, I mean, I'm a Beatles guy, I'm a classic rock guy, you know, from a way back when I like, you know, folk and tunes are like, you know, I like the band and I love, I'm a big Dylan fan and, you know, I mean, these are all surface people, but also the kind of music that stems out of that genre. Randy Newman and Warren Zevon and these kind of people. That's, I don't know, I like simple, you know, I'm not like, I'm not a proper rock guy really.

Right.

I'm not a techno, you know, electronic music kind of guy, like warm, earthy guitar based music, generally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That just makes me, I mean, I get a little sick of it sometimes and I have to listen to jazz or classical music or something like that and then I like that stuff too. I'm like a broad range of music, but I mean, I'm not the most skilled musician, so when I write music, I tend to write music with three or four chords in it, you know. I'm not trying to reinvent song structure or...

No, such nine diminished chords, right, yeah.

Well, I do a little bit of the jazzy chords.

Yeah, cool.

You've almost got the ninth and end stuff, so there's some, there's like three or four chords that Daven showed me that are helpful and you're trying to make something that doesn't sound like twist and shout.

Yeah, you're talking about Davenwood too, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, so I've always just loved music and I've well, as a hobby, trying to do a learning how to record at home, learning how to, you know, get a decent quality sound going and that's been sort of like a hobby. It's like you might go to the basement and buy a bunch of plug-ins and learn about this and EQs, mess around with it and I'm very limited in that. So, I'm lucky to also know people that are much better at it and can come in. But I think I'm a very, I think I'm a good, I have a good grasp on, or a natural talent to write songs, and some of it is work and some of it is you just pops in your head and it takes you about the length of the song to write it, you know?

Yeah, well, so.

No, and I just, I wanted to say, you know, going to a music school and knowing a lot of people who play music and people who don't play music and I think there's this misconception that you need to be extremely technically proficient to make good or great music and I'm of the opinion that whatever the art is, whether it's comedy, whether it's a painting, whether it's music, what's actually being communicated in that art is the entire process itself. It's not just the end finished piece, so everything that goes into it is a part of what's being communicated, so that means the frustrations, the, you know, the glee, whatever, and that's why when I say like you're a really great musician is that comes through in everything you do and it's just, you know, it really does connect with people who are listening to that.

A book, you know, I'll give you a book recommendation. I also, my next question is what stuff do you like to read? But a book you may dig, it's a little esoteric and a little but it's called The Mysticism of Sound and Music by a guy named Hazrat Inayat Khan. He was a Sufi mystic and he has a very, very interesting kind of theories and principles about how sound and music affects, you know, not only our, you know, emotions and our ears, but also like, you know, down to the physical, he was talking about like string theory and quantum physics stuff well before any of this stuff came out. He's long since past, but you may dig it.

That's so I divulge my next question there. What, like, what's, are you reader? Do you like to read stuff?

I go through phases, yeah, I'm sure.

Hatchet phases, you know, it's a little hard to do with kids, I mean, you know, I just like, I read a lot of articles and newspapers, magazines and stuff and I love biographies. I read a lot of historical books and biographies of historical figures. And I haven't really picked up a novel in a while and feel like, I mean, I just, I don't know, feels, I can't recall the last one I read, but I just, I also have such a bad memory of like what I've read and, you know, like, I don't know. It's, I'll go through phases, I'll like, pick up the Tom Petty biography and read, and read that in a week and I'm like, you do nothing but read that book and I was like, well, I don't know if I needed to read that.

It was good, but, so there's books that are really fun and easy to read and then there's more, you know, books that take more of your energy and time.

Yeah. - Aren't so fun, but you feel better in what you're doing.

Yeah, I mean, that's--

I mean, I grew up, I would say like, you know, my, a lot of my worldview and humor and everything has been dictated by, you know, Kurt Vonnegut reading his books.

Oh God, I know, it's one of those, God, he's so great.

You know, Woody Allen's books, if you've read those, there's collections of his stories and his articles and stuff, very informative.

I haven't read those, that--

Oh yeah, without feathers and life itself and they're really, really, really fun.

Awesome.

Like another, another sense of, another kind of issue that I don't think is as good as so much.

Cool, all right, I'm gonna ask a few more questions and I'm gonna let you go.

Okay.

So I wanted to talk about our mutual friend, Vic Berger. And if you could just, I mean, you, a long time ago, back when he had like 10 followers retweeted something and then I got to know him and have been an avid fan and friend since, can you just talk about how, I mean, he's a genius. How, how, how are we looking at him?

I love that genius. (laughing)

I mean, I'm--

I'm like David Bowie.

No, no. (laughing) But in his own right, I mean, he is now transcending. I hear, you know, like my parents' friends talking to me about Vic Berger now, he's clearly, you know, transcended his little kind of niche is like a funny video maker with the politics and stuff. But like, what initially did you see? I know he was making songs for on cinema and he sent you some stuff. But like, what did you see in Vic that, you know, clearly, you know, launched a star? Like, what, what was it in him that--

Well, I guess I saw early, I mean, yes, we gave him some early assignments to do stuff for on cinema 'cause he had made these things. And I thought the songs were good. Yeah, like they're catchy songs about Ayaka and on cinema that were above and beyond the quality that they needed to be here. It was just like, oh, so there was that. There was, and then there was the fact that he was from my hometown, which I thought was kind of neat 'cause I don't know a lot of people from my hometown that come out doing interesting things. So it was notable, you know, it's notable for me that he was from my hometown.

Yeah, that's cool.

And it, and I guess I saw, I can remember like some of the first, very first videos he was making, they were like recuts of, I know there was a Emerald Lagasse one, but they're like-- - Oh my gosh, yes.

There were other ones that I can't remember right now what they were, but they were just, you know, I'm recutting weird things that you found on the internet. There was like one of Tom Hanks from the new he did. There's just these weird and some chubby checkers stuff.

Oh, God, yeah.

But there was some very, very early things that he was playing around with. I guess that's what he was doing, just playing around. I must have encouraged him to make something, but I remember seeing them being like, okay, this is something that's informed by our stuff, but is now going in a little, is going in a different direction or is elevating it or it's, he's got his own, there's some, he's got some of his own tricks here that are not just copying.

Right, it's not like derivative, it's his own stuff.

Not derivative, yeah. And I showed it to some people, you know, some friends and not sharing it with some friends and everybody was laughing the way I was laughing. So I just kept encouraging him and said, you know, he would send me cuts to look at and I was able, you know, I was happy to give him my two cents. And Ken, it's been great, 'cause I was, you know, Bob Odenkirk was so, so generous with his time and mine and everything. To us, I felt, always felt like if I was ever in any kind of position would be that for somebody else, if it felt warranted, felt like, January I would be so happy to be that person.

'Cause, you know, I have some experience and some opinions and some contacts and some, you know, some people following what I say. So if I could do that with somebody, it would be great. And, you know, Dix really taken it and run with it.

Yeah, man, well, I am so happy that you did because he's outside of being immensely talented. Again, like the common theme of people who seem to know you personally, one of the nicest people. I've come across like ever, just like a genuinely lazy munch. He's just a really good guy, so.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, so, okay, I got three quick rapid fire questions and then one at the end and then we're done. And I just wanted to say thank you again because this is really, it's a treat for me.

You're welcome.

Thanks, yeah, okay. So what is your favorite color?

Do not have one, but I've been wearing a black T-shirt now consistently pretty much every day for almost a year now.

Oh wow, okay.

My new, like, steep jobs move. (laughing)

Cool, man.

I've got this black, common, fine T-shirt that I like the way it fits me and I don't need to think about when I'm putting on every morning, you know, I think.

I think their advantage is to just developing a uniform.

Yeah.

You know, at a certain point, it just seems to work.

Yeah.

So, I hear you on that. What's your favorite number?

Well, I don't have a favorite number and I don't, and it's well established on my own podcast that I do not like favorites. (laughing)

So, what is, no, what is a number you enjoy, not a favorite?

I don't know, man. I don't want to bullshit you here, you know.

You don't want to bullshit me.

There's no number, that's fine. And if there's not one, if you don't, I don't have to--

I don't have a number, I'm also not a numbers guy. I mean, numbers just confuse me. (laughing)

I hear you. Well, I bring them up. The reason I ask these questions is I'm a big Carl Jung fan and one of his disciples had the theory that numbers are the primordial archetype. So, before we get into anything else, numbers actually the structure of everything that we perceive. So, which is why I ask it. Some people see numbers pop up, some people do not. So, I'm gonna change the third question. What's an animal you enjoy?

What's an animal I enjoy, saturated? (laughing)

Any animal in any way you enjoy? (laughing)

I like going to the zoo and looking at the gray age, the growth, you know?

Yes, I do, I promise you. All right, and last question, what's a practical tip you could share with people listening that has helped you in your life?

Well, be, if you can, you can be super artistic and creative and weird and be a weird knowledge stuff, but you have to take the way you present yourself or the way you present your work seriously and respectful of the person you're presenting it to. So, and make it clear about what it is and what it's intending to be. So, if it's, if you think you wanna make funny skits, you know, do them, see them as well as you can, you know, see them through as well as you can. Present them cleanly and clearly at labels and you know what I mean? Like don't just, we've always had people that just hand us like a blank DVD with their names scrawled on it, you know?

Like this is it, socks, nope.

That's not, it would be like the earliest things Eric and I put out, they were like this nice cover with like, you know, with like a logo and our information on the back. You know, it was like very well packaged.

Well, you're being respectful of the people, you're potentially trying to get something you care about in front of their faces. So, that's, that makes a lot of sense. Tim, man, thank you so much.

You're welcome.

I really had a great time. I, I'll email you if there's anything specifically you want me to put out there. You have my everlasting support in any capacity, man. I just, I really appreciate it.

Thanks, I'm nice talking to you.

Nice talking to you too.

Take care, bye.

Bye, bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

Next week.

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