Ep. 17 - Danny Goldberg

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - This is synchronicity.

This is synchronicity. - Welcome to episode 17 of Synchronicity. My guest today is Danny Goldberg. Danny has a podcast called Rockin' Roles on MindPod Network. You can check that out. I highly recommend it. Don't tell anyone, but it's actually my favorite podcast on MindPod Network. So, yeah, Danny, really, really interesting guy. Let me back it up. We're gonna get to Danny. There's a whole conversation between us, and I'm gonna tell you more about him. But I wanted to talk about a couple things that crossed my eyes in the past week on the internet. They're substantial enough that I'm sharing them with you now.

So, there's two stories. One is, did you see that Hitler had a micro penis? I don't know how someone goes about figuring that out, but Facebook felt it important to tell me that Hitler had to form genitals. So, thanks, Facebook, really adding quite a bit to my life. And that's not mainly the story I wanted to share with you. The main story is a headline I saw in the Huffington Post called "Cuba's Had a Lung Cancer Vaccine for Years," and now it's coming to the U.S. So, that shocked me for a lot of reasons. I assumed it was fake. I read the article thinking this isn't true, this is clickbait, but it actually appears that they do have a vaccine that is focused on building up cells that kind of form antibodies against lung cancer, and they've developing it, and they've had it for years.

And so, I immediately felt like, well, how did they, we've had an embargo with them, we don't have any connection with Cuba over the past 40 years, but how did they do this? They're a small little country. And so, when you read the article, if you read it, it'll be on the podcast page, it'll put it up here for you. But you'll see they actually, the life expectancy for someone in Cuba is 79 years old, which is pretty much on par with the United States. And they basically describe it since they've had such strict economic restrictions, they've basically had to do more with less, they got more innovative.

So, they have like one of the best and most preeminent immunology communities in the world. So, they do, they really do have something, I don't think it's something like you just inject tomorrow and you're good for life, but I do think it really does protect against some form of lung cancer, which is incredible to me. That's just totally insane, that something like that could even exist in the world at this point, let alone coming from a small island like Cuba. So, that's awesome, great job making up with them, Obama, US, 'cause that's awesome. Now, who knows what we could do with this type of technology in other areas?

So, very, very awesome. Okay, I digress, let me get back to Danny Goldberg. So, Danny, like I said, he's got actually my favorite podcast on MindPod Network. One of the reasons I like it so much is, A, well, A is great guests, but what he talks about with those guests is even greater and it's these subtle kind of esoteric, mystical, spiritual concepts that kind of underlie or underpin a lot of what I fundamentally believe is our reality. I think the things we can't see actually have more to do with what we experience in this world and can't feel, can't touch with our five senses, actually shape our reality and consciousness more than the other stuff.

So, but he talks about this stuff with everyone. He had a great conversation with Rosanna Arquette about angels, it was at the end of the podcast. I highly recommend that. He's just spoken with a bunch of people about really interesting things. So, definitely check out his podcast. Danny has also risen to some of the highest heights you can in his particular industry, which is the music business. He was head of Atlantic Records. He was Nirvana's manager. He was Led Zeppelin's publicist. He's just, I'm just bullet points. There's so many other things that he has done and just cool. He recently contributed as a consultant to the show Vinyl on HBO.

He's just, he's a cool dude. So, I got a chance to actually sit down with him at his apartment in New York, FYI. I don't know if this matters to any of you, but we're gonna be moving back to New York. We miss it. My wife and I, we really miss, we're probably not gonna move right back to the city, but somewhere north of there, just because, man, if you either love it or hate it, right? We love the city and the people in the places we went to there and just saw it. So, it was really great being back there. I have another podcast actually I did with Sean Dunn, great filmmaker coming out next week or the week after.

I also got to sit down with him. But I hadn't done a lot of these in-person podcasts and I got to say, I might like I'm better. It's just there's something to be said for being in the physical space with someone discussing this type of stuff that is really powerful. But yeah, Danny and I have a great conversation about a lot of different things. He talks about the power of prayer. He talks about the power of not being an asshole. He talks about faith. He talks about the music business versus music, the spiritual connection between music, but, and you'll hear this at the beginning. You'll hear me preface the conversation saying, "Oh yeah, one thing, don't worry."

One thing, maybe the batteries might die, but I don't think they will. Well, guess what, they died. They definitely died. So, at the end, it cuts off abruptly and we're talking about politics. So, I caught it pretty close off so we didn't really discuss that much else after that. So, Danny and I are gonna get together again and do a part two of this. So, if it feels a little abrupt and like it ended and you wanted more, it's a cliffhanger, but we will be doing a part two, so stay tuned for that. But yeah, I'm not gonna ramble on anymore. And also, someone pointed out to me, I'm always saying rate and review on iTunes.

I got love for Stitcher people. I got love for Android people. Any place you wanna review, comment, speak highly and/or poorly of this podcast, I appreciate it. It really, it makes me happy. It's an ego hit maybe, but it really does. I like that people are enjoying it and to see that and it helps. So, without further ado, Danny Goldberg. (upbeat music) We're good to go. There's one thing I am not anticipating this dying, but if it does, you know, batteries. Okay, so thank you, by the way, for doing this.

So, so grateful to be part of it.

I'm really happy and I'm glad you feel like that. So, I wanted to start and ask you if you could give kind of some insight into your process of how you have maintained kind of a spiritual practice, however you would define that. And also, you know, objectively reach some of the highest heights you could for your profession, you know, in the music industry. How are you able, and I know, let's start with Hilda Charlton.

Yeah.

So, start there and just kind of, how have you done it over the years?

Well, you know, Hilda Charlton for people who don't know was a spiritual teacher who lived in New York City and had weekly meditations from the late 1960s up until the end of the '80s when she passed on. And I encountered her at the end of 1972. I had met her through Randa's who I didn't particularly know very well, I'd only met him a couple of times when I was trying to figure out, was there's some spiritual path that would connect to me other than reading books. And he had first mentioned the Zen Center, which I went to and just didn't feel connected to. And then he suggested Hilda's meetings.

And she was somebody who had been in India for 20 years before that, she had many lineages. One was Paramahansa Yogananda who she knew when she lived in California and spent a lot of time with his students, she went to India where she became a disciple of Nithyananda who's also Mukdhananda's guru. And she spent the last year and a half as I understand that over time in India then, it's not the Asai Bab's ashram. And she also had a consciousness that was very much connected to multiple other paths, she loved Jesus. And at the very times we look at herself as a Christian, she felt very connected to the Masters of the Great White Lodge, which is a tradition that's best known in the world of theosophy.

And she had a tremendous belief that the Native American traditions, Jewish traditions and many others that have names I can't think of or remember were all part of the same truth with different packages and names. Philosophy very consistent with most of the philosophers and the whole people that I respect. Certainly, Ramakrishna was somebody she deeply loved and spoke about all the time. And she has some great lecture online by Ramakrishna. And I was 22 years old, and my main thing I got out of the first few meetings that I went to, these were meetings of hundreds of people. And I was just sitting in the back and trying to meditate and just get into the vibe, was the notion of praying, which I found very attractive because I was really not a very good meditator.

By the grace of God in the last few years, I've actually become a pretty regular meditator. Most days I meditate, but for decades I didn't. But prayer is a lot easier. And prayer is a way of connecting with something bigger than yourself. And it has all these connotations having to do with organized religion that may some people feel that word has baggage. But I didn't. I grew up in a kind of a secular humanist, cultural Jewish intellectual world where I didn't have any resentment against religion. If anything, I was trying to rebel against intellectualism, rationalism, and materialism, not to deny it, but to transcend it because it just wasn't enough to make me feel alive.

And so the word prayer to me didn't have any bad memories or baggage. And the idea of just trying to talk to something bigger than myself, I have no problem with the word God, but I respect that some people do. But whatever people want to call it, the idea that there's a higher consciousness is big. And to me, that's sort of been my main technique for trying to get out of my ego and out of my fear. Both of which are very frequent in the professional world and terrified of being a failure and invisible and irrelevant. And then when I'm doing well, sometimes I overestimate powers and brilliance and value.

So being able to step back from that and try to appreciate what's good and not be delusional and not be irrationally depressed or demoralized also. So to me, prayer, which has really worked. And just trying to find whatever one could come and connect with 'cause the mind is so changing and sometimes listening to music can help me in some days exercising and sometimes praying. But the point is to just try to not get stuck and to believe that there's some value to trying to get unstuck. And if the word faith means anything, it's just to try. It doesn't mean having to do things just on sure irrational belief, taking huge risks for your family or for yourself or your life.

But it means just giving it a shot to try to put your head in a place where you can get some other energy. And then as far as careers and everything goes, I just think, I mean, Hilda had this expression that I think she attributed to the Muslims of trust in God but tie up the camel's meaning. Believe in the unseen forces, be open to the unseen forces, tune into the unseen forces, tune into the great ancient masters. But at the same time, don't let any of that process eliminate your rational mind where your bills on time, show up on time, be respectful to other people, follow the golden rule, follow the ethical norms because she said any path that violates your ethics is the wrong path for you.

Right, immediately.

She said, if you're ever in anything, no matter how holy someone seems, if anything that feels ethically wrong, that's not the right place to be. And so, to me, that was just, I got that all at once. Living up to it, I'm still working on it.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

That's the goal.

Yeah. (laughs) So, what have you noticed practically happened from prayer? And also, I mean, prayer is one of those things to me. I admittedly probably don't pray enough. One thing that I can do is, I try to be as grateful as possible, which is kind of like a form of prayer to me, like acknowledging that this is from something. But what have you noticed, like the practical benefits of prayer, like for you?

You know, I think there's different levels of prayer and there's different times. For me, I've told the story before that when I first went to, so I apologize to anyone who's heard it before. But when I first went to her meetings, I was 22, I had been sort of knocking around the music business since I was 18. I dropped out of college right away. And this was in the early '70s. And as happened every few years in the music business, culture changed a little bit. The economic changed a little bit and having been able to make a living for about four years as kind of a writer and an editor of rock magazines, something I didn't have a job.

It was like musical chairs. There was just not a chair for me. And I went through many months of trying to get a job. First, I wanted to get a really cool job and get the exact right job. And then I wanted to get one that I didn't totally hate. And then I wanted to get anything so that I wouldn't have to ask my parents for money, but I felt at that time it was just the worst humiliation that having told my parents I didn't need a college degree to have to go back them for money. And I was down to a month's rent and pretty desperate. And I'd asked all my friends if they knew of anything. And I looked at the Juan ads and the papers early on.

I'd gotten my first job through a one in the New York Times. And I'd written letters to people that I heard were looking for jobs and just did every single thing I could consciously think of to do. And I was striking out 25, 30 times in a row. And at this meeting, the first one I went to, she said, you know, you've got to tell God, I don't care what you did in the Bible thousands of years ago. I need to know that you're here now. And it says in the Bible, apparently, I don't know what book in the Bible. I'm not read most of the Bible. I am Jehovah, the Lord of the Host, trying to be improving. She said, you've got to say, God, I answered his prayer in 24 hours.

So I walked out, I was on St. Luke's Church since burned down and rebuilt on Hudson Street in the Village. And didn't know anyone there. And I said, God, please, you heard what you said. I'm telling you, I don't know how to pray. I don't know what to say. I'm not sure if you're listening, but I challenge you to answer your prayer in 24 hours. I need a job, you know. And the next day, our mutual friend, David Silver, who's been a long time presence in mind rolling. And he called me in complete shock because his boss at the time wanted to meet me and had some project he wanted me for. And David had known for months about my daughter.

And he hadn't been able to help. He had his own issues trying to handle his career. And I got this three week project writing a foundation proposal, something I knew nothing about. Experimental video, which I knew nothing about, but it was $200 a week for three weeks, which at the time was like, you know, 750 a week now or something. It was fine, but it was very good. That was definitely a couple of months' rent. But it was after three weeks and I went to another one of these meetings and I walked out and I said, "God, I met the full time job. "What am I doing here?"

That's changing.

You know, 24 hours trying to improve me. And as it happened the next day, I got a call from a PR agency that I'd done a job interview with months earlier, got the job there the following Monday. And you know, pretty much stayed employed up until now in my Social Security period where I'm again in a reinvention mode, but grateful to have work to do. So that energy kept me going for more than 40 years. And so what does this mean? I mean, does it mean it'll work for every single person? I have no idea. I think that there's a part of the dynamic, which is when somebody is trying to find out if this God is real, it's like, Sybaba had this saying years ago when people asked about the miracles that many people believe he did.

Sure.

He'd say, "I will give you what you want, "so you will want what I have come to give you." And you know, to me that was part of the dynamic. I didn't feel it was like a Lamb's lamp. We're now, "Okay God, I want my greatest stereo in the world." You know, "Okay God, I wanna be on television."

Right, right, right, right.

You know, or something. You know, I didn't think it was in a Lamb's lamp situation. I think that when you're really totally focused and almost desperate and intense enough, and you really look for that help, I do believe the help comes.

Yes.

It may not come in the way that you particularly were expecting and harassed for, because we're, you know, our minds can't always conceive of it. But for me, you know, so I've been disappointed in numerable times. I've been fired from many jobs. I've had public embarrassments. I've had ups and downs.

Sure.

And I pray to all throughout it. So I'm not saying that every single time it's a panacea, but I do believe that there is a bigger force than us. I happen to identify with some of the Hindu traditions, but there is hundreds of traditions and ones with no name. And it doesn't matter which, but I think that to the extent that you can connect with a larger energy, I do believe there are beings that look out for us if you can connect with them and hear them and let them help. And that, to me, prayer just means talking as opposed to, you know, meditation, which to me has a lot to do with quieting the mind and listening.

Yes.

And they're both incredibly important practices. And I'm very grateful that I've been able to meditate more the last few years, but prayer is easier.

It is for you too.

It's just easier. And you can always give an excuse of not meditating of, hey, I'm sitting down, my mind's wandering. I'm itching, I can't do this. But prayer, you can do it in one second. So I just think it's a good thing to do if you're cool with it. I mean, again, I understand there are people who have different kinds of religious backgrounds where that process has associations for them that make it not good for them. But for me, it's been a really good alternative. And as far as how to then, you know, I mean, handle a career stuff is, you know, 90% of it is. You're trying to be logical, trying to work hard, trying to get lucky, trying to do all the things that any careerist would do.

You do all of those things. But I just, I think that you try to, try to not be a complete asshole to other people. And if you do, try to apologize sooner rather than later. And try to stay positive and all of those kinds of things. But the extent that one can create a little bit of space and quietness and tune in and get some intuitive guidance, I think most successful people would say, they've had a lot of their best ideas that they didn't know where they came from. And the great artists that I work with are people that follow with tremendous fidelity their intuition.

Right.

And once, you know, you know, one of my favorite artists that I've worked with for many years is Steve Earl. And you know, when he has an idea for a song, it's like he's completely committed to that idea.

Ways are focused on that.

And he doesn't let anything dissuade him from his commitment to it and his confidence in it. And that's scary 'cause people may just say, hey, you know, I don't like it, but the intensity that comes with that. And those things, again, I think, look, people take guitar lessons, they learn about the business, you've got to do all the practical things. But if you layer onto it to me another way of tuning in, the odds of success for me have been better.

I mean, I've noticed the exact same thing in my life. And I always, from probably the first time I took psychedelics when I was 15, noticed, I just had an awareness that I knew that things were gonna work out. I had supreme faith that even if they were difficult or hard, that everything worked out the way it was supposed to. And that has functioned into my life in a lot of different ways. Things, you know, miraculous things, mundane things, but it's been kind of an omnipresent thing. So what you said, you believed that there are beings that we can get supportive who aren't visible and kind of on another layer or another dimension of things.

Was that something you always believe from when you were a kid or was there a period where there was a transition point or something that's been an inkling that's been reinforced over time? How did that come about?

Well, I wasn't brought up religious, but you know, my mother would sort of, sometimes we'd say our prayers would go into sleep. Now I lay me down to sleep. The idea that there was a god out there was kind of, was something I was taught. My parents were culturally Jewish, but we were not members of a synagogue or temple or shul. I was not by Mitzvahd, but there was this sort of notion that sort of out there, there was something bigger that I thought was sort of part of my assumption about the universe, but it didn't come into play day-to-day, you know, psychedelics had a huge impact on me when I was a teenager in terms of the idea of looking at reality through another lens other than just the day-to-day, minute-to-minute, so-called real world.

Yes.

And the idea of a connectedness and sort of loving connectedness between different, whatever this me was in other people. And you know, and then reading your rhomba, and hearing rhombas give the lectures that ended up being the content of "Be Here Now" about making the linkages between psychedelic yearnings and certain religious and esoteric traditions, that sort of rang true to me. And I always had kind of an interest in that anyway, because some of the artists I admired the most, like the Beatles were very interested in things and some of the other music and art that I like, you know, alluded to this, and so I had a curiosity about it.

And, but I never felt that I wanted to be part of any group or organization. I always had a real phobia about that. I didn't want anyone telling me what to do, and the idea of some infinite thing was incompatible with some organization of people telling me like, what to do. And I just generally speaking, you know, had that thing of not liking to be part of groups, so. But I remember being in Central Park in the early '70s when some of the Harry-Christian people were there, and they were really seemed weird to me. I mean, they had these haircuts that I like would be my worst nightmare that I have, like, that kind of, not my worst nightmare, but a nightmare to have that kind of a time and jumping around like I thought it looked very silly.

And I didn't like all that thing of wearing funny in the enclosed in the middle of New York City. What are you doing? I didn't really get the whole thing. But there was also a sweetness about them that I didn't feel they were dark. I just felt I would never want to be one of them, but I wasn't scared of them. They just seemed weird. And they were giving out things. And so there was some little thing they gave out, some little giveaway, like a postcard size thing or something with a picture of Chris Dunn. And it had some quote from somebody. I've long ago lost, so I don't remember what it said. But somebody, maybe it was Bhaktivedanta or maybe it was someone else, said that if you just said the name Krishna, that you would be forever changed by the connection with the divinity of Krishna, which according to Indian people of Hindu persuasion is a form of God.

And, you know, I just said to myself, I could say the name Krishna, like what's the downside? I can do that there. It's not like taking a pill that might be poisoned. I mean, so it's just like that old Pascal's bargain thing. You're like, why not say it? And I've always felt that that was a key moment in my life. I really do. Just like recognizing that, I can... I think, you know, there's something to it. I have a little doll of Krishna in my office here. I lost it for about 20 years. I just recently found it was in my son's room. He's in college now and he hadn't looked at it for a long time. And it just gives me so much happiness to look at it.

So I don't want to sign up for any organization or religion, but I do think for me, you know, this idea that there are some names and traditions and writings that have some power and that if you associate with them, you can get a little energy from it. That does work for me sometimes.

Right, sure, sure. So where does, 'cause it's been a big part of your life, where does music fit into all of this for you? I can say, just I'll give you my brief conception of for me where it fits in, 'cause my life has also been, you know, just inundated. It's been just such a driving force from the college I went to, from just loving it for the experiences I've had with music. I kind of get the sense that music emanates from the realm or the creativity things that creates music emanate from the same or similar realm as kind of these beings or symbolic realms or whatever it is. And I think the best artists in my experience, they seem like they can tap into that and kind of maintain that level of focus or connection and kind of like pull back these nuggets of whatever it is and then express it in a way that resonates with however many people.

So that's just my kind of theory of what I think music is. But I would love to hear how does music kind of fit into the paradigm of what you've been talking about and also your life? What has been the connection there?

Well, I mean, it's, it's, there's a real bright line to me between music and the music business.

No, we agree about that.

And yet I've been involved with both.

Yeah.

And I'm incredibly grateful to the music business because it gave me a profession, I believe to make a living and a place in the world. And when I didn't have really any other qualifications to get a normal job, I would have had a, I could have, I guess, going back to college and tried to make up for lost time. But, you know, so, so the music business to me is not, is mostly a very positive thing for me personally because as I say, it gave me a place in the world the way to make a living and a way to do something that, you know, before the podcast, we were talking about at least half the time I talked about and no one likes their job all the time.

But it did interfere with my connection to music. There's just no question about it because, you know, it became freighted for me personally, like this is the week of the Grammys. So years ago, I ran big record companies. I've been thanked that some of the Grammys a couple of times by people who won, I get invited to all the parties and, you know, and now I'm at a point in my life where I'm still managing musical artists, I'm in the music business and I make some money from it, but I'm not on the A list and I'm not out there for it. I'm not going to these parties. I see a lot of people I used to work with, you know, I read about them and I'm saying, "Gee, I wish I was at that particular thing with them."

That, I'm a thorn in the motion comes into my mind and it becomes something very different from the sort of unifying and intellectual spiritual connectivity that you're describing in music and much more like politics, you know, of like, you know, of sort of status, power, you know, all the ego stuff. So I have a lot of investment in that way of thinking about the music business and it's still part of, and at the same time, I'm grateful for being in the music business 'cause it's like I was able to do jobs. Now I manage 15 clients, a woman's day for four other people and, you know, I think it's an honorable way to make a living and something I know how to do.

I like it better when we're doing well than when we're not doing well. But when we're not doing well and I think I might lose all of it, I mean, then I figure, well, God has something else in mind for me and I try to be cosmic about it, but I also get really depressed. I really, I really, I've been, it's been an intoxicating drug, the ability to have a role, you know, in the music business, which is quite, which is distinct from, although it overlaps with the experience of appreciating music. And there are, sometimes emerges. I mean, I, some of the artists I work with, I'm also a fan of and that's an incredibly beautiful blessing to have.

And again, just to stick with, you know, Steve, when I go to his shows, I always so proud and I really enjoy the songs. I will say though, you know, I don't have, there are people that are really successful in the business have a discipline about listening to all of the hits and all of the new music, which is a discipline that I have not kept up with over the years. I've, I've tend to more listen to music that is not part of possibly the business world. I was this thing to some, you know, Mozart violin music earlier.

Music that you like, is that what basically?

Music that I, that, that I, it's a lot of music that's part of the business world that I like, but music that has no connection with business, right? I don't know the manager, right? I didn't get fired by a company that puts out their records. Where I'm not jealous of somebody else who's making money from them, where I'm not covetous of getting to know them, where I can just listen to the music qua music, which certainly, for example, anyone who's dead is in that category, you know, Pablo Casals or, you know, you know, Sonny Bo Williams Center, whatever, or, or certain other music that, that, that can, I've been able to reconnect with some of that thing.

So, you know, I have a complicated relationship with music because it's been both something that inspired me deeply when I was a teenager, continues to inspire me sometimes now, but also has, has been the sort of the nuts and bolts of how I made my living, which is a great blessing, but it does become polluted by all the ego stuff of, of, of anyone else's career.

I can relate in many different ways. I totally guess that.

Yeah, it's like the podcast thing, you know.

Exactly.

Like you're, you've got a pure connection to it, and it's also like, when you see it as a business, it's a little different. So, so, you know, I think that in general art is, at its best, I mean, there's all different levels of art, and, you know, low as combinator is, is a lot of what we call entertainment. And then there is entertainment that's also very high level. I mean, I'm a, I'm so excited when something can be both very popular and really good.

Right.

You know, and I was blessed. There was a time when I just thought the music, you know, like the Beatles are Dylan. And today I know my son loves hip hop and connects with so much of it. So, and then there's art that's incredibly powerful. That's not all that popular, but still plays an incredibly meaningful role for the smaller community that it connects. And it does, it is a link between the nonverbal world and the verbal world. You know, the noncerebral world and the cerebral world. It's a link that provides a sense of community and a shared language of certain things that can't be expressed by normal language.

And, you know, people who can tune into that to me are very valuable and should be protected and were awarded by society. And they're not the only valuable people, doctors and mechanics and all sorts of other people do very important work too. But I'm a big patron of believer in artists. And, you know, I try to hang around it. I don't have any musical talent myself. I never did.

You sure?

You're sure about it?

I am positive.

Okay, just say.

I'm positive. I am absolutely positive of that. I know too many people I, my daughter, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

They're all pretty and put out their album this week as we speak. So, I've been around enough people that are really talented. No, I definitely don't have that particular talent. I find the clarity about that that helps me do my job actually, although there are people who are musicians who also have done a wonderful job in the music business. And I don't know what to say about it, except I'm glad it exists. You know, Pete Seeger always used to say in his latter years, if there's still a human race, 100 years from now, music is gonna be one of the reasons why.

Yeah, I mean--

And so, you know, I think that's true. I can't exactly explain what he meant, but I just believe it's true.

I love Pete Seeger. Well, so speaking, let's talk about some of your favorite artists and I'm gonna make an admission here that is not gonna make you happy. Is I never got into Bob Dylan. I never, I haven't heard Bob Dylan songs. I'm like, I don't like that. I just, the way I tend to get into music in my life, unless I somehow get drawn to it somehow individually, I rely on my friends and community to kind of tune me in to what's going on. And I think because of my age group, I don't think my parents weren't into Dylan, but they certainly weren't super into him. I didn't have a cultural reference.

So I'd like you to do a couple of things. One, specifically related to Dylan, and maybe you could talk about some other artists who kind of embodied some of the characteristics that outside of the business of music kind of gravitate towards. And then also kind of do, explain to a person like me who doesn't totally get, I get the reasons people like Dylan, but I don't know where to start and I don't know how to recapture and kind of latch onto the enthusiasm people have and understand it in the same way.

Well, I mean, first of all, one huge part of the relationship between people and music and my observation experience is what they liked when they were teenagers.

Sure.

That there is something about the teenage years. There are even, there's this documentary that I think Oliver Sacks or someone associated with the makeup people with Alzheimer's and other types of dementia in homes where they've been completely not speaking for weeks or months. And then somebody puts headphones on and they play a Duke Ellington piece or something and that they connected to from a time in their life. There's something about a certain time in the development of the human being, what we call adolescents, where music plays a unique role. And the music that I fell in love with when I was 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, I have a different relationship with any other music.

It so happens that when I was in 11th grade walking down the hallway of my high school, a kid named Paul Mintz, who I never had much of a conversation with before or after, but I remember his name because he had one of these portable record players that were just becoming the thing at the time and played me a ballad of a thin man by Bob Billy. 'Cause I was in the carter and he had to play it for somebody and it was so great. And we weren't friends or barely acquaintances.

Just like you got here, holy shit.

I was there and he had to play it for somebody. And that's the song that has the famous chorus, something is happening and you don't know what it is to you, Mr. Jones. So, I was 15 years old when that happened. If I'd been 35 or if I'd been five, I don't think it would have had the same impact.

Sure.

And so I am of that generation when certain Bob Billy Nelms came out. When I was in high school, I was bringing it all back home. Highway 61 revisited and blonde on blonde that connected a connection between me as a fan and him as an artist that is, I see the way my son feels connected to Kanye West. And I tell this to my baby boomer friend and they say, "Kanye West, you're comparing him to Bob Dylan, are you crazy?" I said, "Listen, all I know is this. My son, as far as I can tell, is smarter than me. He certainly gets way better grades than I ever got. He's an extremely deep human being. And if he loves Kanye West, he must be great to him.

Personally, I don't really listen much to Kanye West, although I respect it. I don't listen much to opera. I know people who can be moved to tears by opera. I respect it, but it just never, it didn't happen to hit me. I went the other night to hear a friend of mine introduce me to an incredibly revered Indian violinist named M. Subramanian. Since late '60s, he's played with the Hootie menu and he's done music for some of the great Indian movies. He's played with great jazz artists like Herbie Hancock. I mean, he's a genius. And it was really interesting. It was a concert of classical Indian music that I hadn't heard before.

My ear is not too into it. I had moments of really feeling inspired and my mind and heart were being stretched by it. And I'm so grateful for that experience. But if I was 16, it would have had a different effect on me. That's just the reality of it. So I don't think there's anybody has a monopoly on wisdom about what great music is. I've never thought I could have an encyclopedic knowledge of all music. There are people who do that. I know. That's one of the reasons why I wasn't a very good critic. I was a much better publicist. I always was better at being a passionate advocate of the few things that I loved and being an objective observer of the whole lay of the land of music.

So I don't know what to tell you. I do go back to some of the music I like when I was younger. There's certain artists that have grown on me have gotten older. One of them is Jerry Garcia, who I wasn't a big bad fan when I was younger. But as I got turned on to some of the stuff he did, especially with Jerry David Grisman. Leonard Cohen, to me, is an artist. I didn't really like him as much when I was younger as I do now. And obviously, there's new music every once in a while. It just knocks me out. You know, but I'm not a music critic. I'm just a guy. I like to work with artists and to be of service to individual-specific artists.

And that's a different headspace. Definitely, than what you're talking about. So what attracts you? The Dylan thing was that at the moment in time he came along, he was able to put into words feelings that a lot of us had that no one else could put into words, whether it was through books or speeches or movies that somehow or other, if you see the film No Direction Home is the best explanation of how people got bonded to Bob Dylan. Martin Scorsese directed it. It's four hours. It's part one and part two. It's his early years. And it's the best thing about Bob Dylan that I could say for somebody new to see if that-- Peak's been interesting, so you've got to get it.

You know what? There's incredible-- I grew up-- the people older than me, who were my role models in some ways in terms of politics and, intellectually, in other ways, grew up with jazz. And the way they talk about Miles Davis is the way I talk about Bob Dylan. I really haven't listed Miles Davis in years. I know he was a genius. I can't wait to see Don Cheadle play him in a movie. I know how great he was objectively. But emotionally, I don't really get it, to be honest with you. Well, you're talking to someone who grew up playing saxophone. And I was inundated with exorbitant amounts of jazz. And it colored my relationship to it, where it took me a good, I don't know, five, 10 years out of college after going to play saxophone, where I could finally start appreciating jazz in a different context.

So-- I'm kind of envious of people who really appreciate cheers, because I think it's incredibly sophisticated music. I feel the same way about classical music. I wish I knew more about it. There's certain classical pieces that I connected with it. I was a little younger, 12, 13, 14. That still means something to me. And there's something about some of that music that puts me in a good headspace. But I don't have the ears for it ever, true aficionado. You know, I like guitars. I like guitars and poets. I like the genre of music that I fell in love with when I was 16. That's still the genres that speak to me.

Singer songwriter. One of the things I love at Steve Erell is he's continuing in that tradition, you know? And God knows there. But that's my personal taste. That has nothing to do with objectivity. Of course not. I don't think music to me doesn't really fall into object. There are objective qualities of music that I think people can identify. And so that's great. Everyone likes that in some ways. That is what shapes popular music in some ways, not always. But I do think it's a highly subjective and personal experience how people relate. And I think even trying to hone in on what specifically those qualities you like isn't always the most fruitful endeavor.

Sometimes it's just a piece of music hits you and that's it. And you get it and you don't know why. And that's what it is. Well, another reason why I was the very good critic, because I agree with you completely. I was like, just check this out. This is it, yeah. As opposed to four pages trying to dissect chord changes and lyrics. Although I think that for the people who do that, they really saying something that means something to the people that read it, it's just-- Greel Marcus is a very well-known rock critic who goes into tremendous, intellectually rich detail about what he likes about records.

And I tune him out after a paragraph. I just can't go there. I totally get it. But a lot of my friends really love reading him. So what are you going to do? Well, it's because there can be an intellectual stimulation for reading about and understanding music. To me, that was always a secondary thing compared to actually just listening and experiencing the visceral aspects of it. And it does help. And I mean, I can tell you, I went to school. I can analyze chord changes, structures, how many bridges, how many choruses, where it comes in, what it emulates. It doesn't necessarily enhance the music.

Well, the other thing about music is that it does provide a sense of community. Because by definition, people that are all admirers and the fans and the same artists are part of a community of-- and having that-- there used to be a saying when music was primarily consumed through physical items, such as records, that you could tell a lot about people by looking at their record collection. And I think that was true. And I know then later on, my daughter and her friends used to look at each other's-- I've got this, you know. And it's shorthand for sort of a taste and aesthetic. And then certain live shows-- again, I'm showing my age here.

But there's a spirit and an energy at a Bruce Springsteen show that to me is very inspiring. It's not the same as a spiritual experience or a meditation or a church or something, a snot song or something like that. But it does have a tremendously high level of love and positive energy and community and sort of a general ethical frame that I think separates it from just ordinary entertainment. Yes. Well, I-- one of my favorite musical genres-- and I do like a lot of music-- but I started going to underground electronic parties, raves back when I turned 18 in DC, and then extended out in a Boston and then New York.

And one of the first things-- and I was young enough and didn't know anyone that I actually wasn't going for the drugs. I didn't go for the party atmosphere. I just really genuinely connected with the music. And I've noticed over the years as it's gained in popularity and various permutations. And I really-- you know, the EDM movement has plenty of things I don't like. Oh, my god. It's so incredibly successful. I wish I had an ear for it just as a business person. Well, it's-- I'm so jealous of all the money people are making from it. But the truth is, and I can tell you, it's a real fan of this stuff that's been at least since the mid '90s.

This stuff that really is making a lot of money is kind of the LCD stuff. It's the lowest common denominator stuff. There's not stuff that's making crap loads of money that I would put at the forefront of people who are really innovating in the scene. And that, to me, carries a lot of weirdness with it. But what I do love about electronic music-- and it's something that I think taps into a pretty primordial part of people-- is that sense of community. Yes, it can be enhanced with drugs, and that's a huge part of the scene in a lot of ways. But getting people together or dancing around to, you know, foreign the floor beats really evokes this very interesting dynamic that does feel church-like to me.

And I've heard people talk about Springsteen the same way. I've heard people talk about the Grateful Dead the same way. Yeah, and listen, on another level, I mean, I thought this movie straight out of Compton was a very good movie about an era of kind of the beginning of what later became called Gangster Rap. I had friends that did incredibly well by business associations with it. Again, the part of me wishes I'd had the intelligence and discipline to get into that business. Sure. But I was not a fan of it because I was just too old and more of a rock and roll guy. Sure, sure. But there's just no question in seeing that movie and remembering the effect it had on a generation of people that it made people feel less alone at that.

Music was able to express a certain complaints about the system, about racism, about people not feeling empowered, becoming empowered through the music that was very inspiring to people, for millions of people in a way that certain rock and roll music was, for me, it's just obviously that dynamic. So I'm kind of militantly of the belief that God doesn't turn off the faucet just because we get older and then teenagers are connecting to music in a way that's just as deep and meaningful as what other generations did. But that doesn't mean that most of us have the mental or emotional ability to go through 10 or 12 generations and appreciate all of those different musics.

I certainly don't. You know what? I can just respect it. But in terms of what I actually get, it's pretty narrowly limited to my lane. You know what? I think there's a relationship between the skill, because this is how I got into music. The internet was just starting to take off in the mid '90s. I was lucky to be part of a family where we had a computer, we had access to the internet, and I had access before Napster, for all of this stuff, to something called FTP's, file transfer protocols, which are just folders. And what I would do every night, and RA, please don't come after me, I would illegally download as many possible albums as I could find.

And I would just go through them and listen, every possible genre. And it wasn't like the normal process of consuming music before that, which was you go and get an album, or you listen on the radio, you figure out what your tastes are, you try this. But I was just indiscriminately pulling from 25, 30 different genres. So I developed a skill where I could start appreciating just stuff from totally left field. You know, classical music, to modern dance music, to African tribal drumming, to Destiny's Child's new album. And the reason I bring this up is I think that skill of being able to listen to different types of music is also applicable in life.

And I look at it in situations like now in the political situation, where there's a pretty stark dichotomy between liberals and conservatives and wherever you fall in that spectrum. But being able to-- I'm a liberal. Yeah, I know. That's where I fall in the spectrum. Yeah, I know, I know that. And to the left of the liberal. I know that, personally. But my point is that it's almost like a way of tuning your ear to be able to hear the particular beauty or whatever is being communicated in a type of music. Using that skill or whatever it is when paying attention to the world and trying to cut through the stark opinions and reactive judgments people have, to me, that's been a very kind of-- there's a real parallel for that in me.

And I definitely want to use this as a segue to shift into kind of a political discussion here, because let's talk about Antonin Scalia, right? This is a massive power shift, potentially. It's going to create an incredibly interesting situation in our country, but also just seeing how people are reacting to a human being dying who granted had a very strong and influential position in the Supreme Court, but just how people who would consider themselves very liberal and very progressive are basically dancing on this guy's grave already. And I've seen it on Twitter. I've seen it on the pundits. And I wonder, at a certain point, what happens?

Why do people get so-- you know what I mean? Like we know that he is anti-women's rights and anti-gay marriage. And so many values that just seem to us as liberals or people who fall on that side, like insane. But then again, we hold the qualities of our shared humanity in the same hand. And someone died. And maybe we didn't agree with anything said. Maybe it was a shithead. I don't know. I didn't know him personally. But what happens when we begin to tune out that particular frequency and how we lose the ability to kind of see what's going on? Because that's what the political climate feels like to me right now.

Yeah, I have complicated feelings about this. But firstly, I mean Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who's considered probably the most liberal member of the Supreme Court, has given a number of interviews and made statements about how, while she disagreed with Scalia about everything, that she loved him as a person. She and her husband spend new years, every new year's with the Scalia's. So I think that at that level-- and that's kind of the most important voice-- there's been a respect of shared humanity, despite ideological differences that's really elevating. I think that there's just no question that there are different philosophies in the political world and that if you identify with somebody's actions as having caused a lot of suffering, their removal from a position of power is something to celebrate.

I don't-- I think that it would be horribly wrong to do so in a way that would be disrespectful to someone's friends and family. And that nothing good comes out of anger and meanness, even if it's cloaked and righteousness. [MUSIC PLAYING] So thank you for listening to the end again, past the music. These are the real loyal people and/or the people who just didn't have time to turn it off before the end. Like I said, this episode was a little abrupt, right? The ending, the batteries cut off right in the middle. So we are-- Denny and I are getting back together again and going to record a part two of this because I think we're just getting into some really interesting things around the political climate.

But until then, have some very cool guests coming up. Sean Dunn, filmmaker, mirror by star, author, mystical scholar, and some other cool stuff I'm not going to tell you right now. Again, thank you, as always, for listening. If you want to support the podcast, subscribe, rate and review, anywhere you rate and review these types of things. And yeah, I'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. The grill is shot. The chairs are held together by optimism. And what happened to the rug? Sounds like your outdoor setup is not ready for patio season. Fix it all with Wayfair. Shop Wayfair for grills, rugs, furniture, and more.

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